New efforts!

[Arcana]

I guess that's it.  Given the same two powersets for a tank and a scrapper, who wins a fight?  Is it a 50/50, balanced sort of thing?

This is a tricky question because while you can make certain assumptions on the offensive side that allow you to estimate that a scrapper will tend to do X% of the damage of the tanker, that *isn't* true on the defensive side.

Just to make the discussion simpler, lets imagine a hypothetical battle with hypothetical, simple to analyze powersets (that don't really exist).  Suppose we have scrapper and tanker both taking Fish Melee and Chocolate Defense.  Fish melee just has a couple of attacks that can only make a single constant damage attack chain, and fortunately for us Fish melee has no important secondary effects.  Assuming a 5% crit rate for the scrapper in PvP, we can guestimate the damage difference as such: the scrapper will be dealing 1.125x base damage, plus a 5% crit rate, for a total of about 1.18x base damage.  The tanker, meanwhile, will be dealing 0.8x base damage (using I23 numbers).  If we assume continuous bruising debuff, that will then make the tanker damage 0.8 * 1.2 = 0.96.  In other words, the scrapper will be dealing 1.18/0.96 = 1.23x the damage to the tanker that the tanker deals to the scrapper.  The tanker, then must have at least 1.23x more survivability to win.  Usually, the tanker will have more than that with most sets, and the tanker wins on paper.

Now, here's where it gets complicated.  First, we can't always presume bruising will always be up, because there's a difference between high resistance sets and high defensive ones.  For low defense, we can generally presume brusing's contribution is effectively constant to a first-order approximation.  But with very high defense sets, its entirely possible that brusing's contribution can be made arbitrarily low, and this effect doesn't just average out in the wash.  Imagine a hypothetical case where defense is so high you only hit once every fifteen seconds.  In that case, bruising's contribution is essentially zero because it doesn't last long enough to buff the next hit.  In the general case, depending on defense and how it affects the hit rate, bruising's real contribution will be something between 0% and 20% more damage.

Second: offensive output can be affected in non-linear ways by defensive sets.  Specifically, consider Fiery Embrace and Shield Charge.

Third, Scrappers have a higher damage buff modifiers than Tankers, which means they benefit more from the effects of powers like Build Up and Rage in ways different from the damage modifier changes.

Looking at the defensive side, its a lot uglier.  If Chocolate defense is an all resistance set, then *what* that resistance is makes a difference.  Suppose that its "base" slotted resistance is 90% resistance.  Then the scrapper version would be about 67.5% resistance.  In terms of damage mitigation, the tanker would be taking 10% damage through chocolate defense while the scrapper would be taking 32.5% - 3.25x as much damage.  Conversely if chocolate defense offered only 30% resistance when slotted, then the scrapper would have 22.5% resistance.  The tanker would be taking 70% damage while the scrapper would be taking 77.5%.  In other words, the scrapper is only taking about 11% more damage than the tanker.  That's a pretty big difference.  And that situation actually isn't too far from the truth in some cases: consider Invuln.  Its slotted s/l resists for tankers is about 70%.  If you allow tough, you can reach the 90% tanker cap.  But for scrappers, that same configuration is only about 53% s/l without tough and about 70% with tough.  Against s/l, the tanker has an *enormous* advantage.  But if you look at fire damage, say, the difference collapses: the tanker gets to about 31% vs 23% for the scrapper.  That's only a small incremental difference.  The health increase does more than Invuln's resistances to elemental or energy damage (much less psi, where Invuln offers nothing).

In some cases, the tanker's mitigation roughly scales higher than the scrapper's migitation in predictable ways.  For example, with Willpower.  In other cases, however, its not quite so simple.  And even in the simplest cases, its not so simple.  In the case of Invuln, for example, my discussion above doesn't count defenses, which are not large but very noticeable in a comparison like this.  And I'm completely ignoring indirect mitigation, like knock or fear effects.

Overall, I would say if a Scrapper and a Tanker simply stood there and wailed on each other, with SO builds and only powersets shared between the two, the tanker would generally win assuming a winner existed.  For some combinations, its possible neither would be able to beat the other.  For example, I think the DM/SR vs SR/DM fight would be a draw.

I haven't specifically done the calculations, but if I were the scrapper and had to play by these rules and I wanted to improve my chances of winning, I would probably take Kinetic Melee/Fiery Aura.  I'm not in a position to do the calculations in depth at the moment, but I would be playing the idea that in PvP the damage buffs of KM and Fiery Embrace would overcap the tanker (causing him to not get the same benefit as me, a point in my favor) while the s/l resists in FA are not high enough to push me into accelerating benefit territory on the tanker side.

[MegaWatt]

Neither of them win, stalkers assassinate them while they are dueling!

[Remaugen]

The only time my Defender/Fake Blaster was worth a damn was in PvP, I could usually see stalkers approaching when no one else could. I would usually get in a few good blasts and fly away before they closed in or at least spoil their AS. Even after they used Placate I could usually find them again in a few seconds.

I think her Perception was at or near the cap. Against pretty much anyone else but Stalkers she was hamburger.

[MM3squints]

I've been wondering lately about something of late.  Since the thread is running slow now, I'll go ahead and ask.

In a one-on-one battle, who wins: scrapper vs. tank?  This is the sort of thing that one or more people here may already know (e.g. Arcana).

Let's establish a few rules.  First, both combatants have identical powersets.  There are some powersets available to scrappers that aren't available to tanks, and vice versa; exclude those.  If the tank has Firey Aura defense set, so does the scrapper.  The idea is not to set up an obvious winner, but instead to see if a scrapper's higher damage is enough to overcome a tank's higher defense.

Second, for sanity's sake, let's exclude epic pool powers.  Characters are level 40 max.

Third, let's exclude IOs; no set bonuses.  It's not a Mids' test.  Slot using SOs.

Fourth... actually, I'm not so sure about the fourth.  I was thinking to exclude pool powers, but if something just really makes sense to have, then I guess I'm okay with that.

I guess that's it.  Given the same two powersets for a tank and a scrapper, who wins a fight?  Is it a 50/50, balanced sort of thing?

I'm off work so I can give a better analysis. I guess there is no point in talking about pre i13 so here is the post i13. According to your perimeters, both the scrapper and tanker must have the same type of power. That will narrow it down to the following:

Defense Power:

Dark, Electric, Fire, Invun, Shield, Super Reflex, Willpower
Attack Power:

Battle Axe, Dark Melee,  Broadsword,  Fire Melee, Kinetic Melee, Martial Arts, Dual Blade, War Mace, Titan, Street Justice, Staff

There are several factors you need to consider.

Resistance Vs Defense: General rule in PvP (even in i13) Defense is not as useful for two reasons. PvP builds will always take Tactics alongside with Buildup, which is enough to punch through most defense. Don't get me wrong defense will give you that roll chance, but having something  that will mitigate damage consistent over a 10 second period of BU+tactics is a lot better than potentially being knocked out in that 10 seconds than being somewhat safe for 20-30 seconds (BU CD time with and without Hasten)  The second problem with defense powers listed above (Shield, DR, Willpower) does not have a click heal while typically resistance base powers do (only exceptions to the rules is Ice armor and energy armor, but scappers can't use ice and tanks can't use energy) Going back to the BU+Tactics, sure the person may not kill you from the first 10 seconds of assault, but since you can't acquire  mass amount of HP, it will be a matter of time before you die.

Scrappers will have a base resistance of 10% while tanks get 0% In the grand scheme of thing, you will pretty much cap on smash/lethal

Animation Times/DMG Amount/CD Time: The quicker the animation times for each attack, the more DPS you will have on a target.  Example Katana vs Broadsword: Broadsword dose more damage, but Katana has faster animation time and faster CD time. Although you will get higher damage each hit with broadsword, the faster animation time combine that with faster CD time, you can get more DPS. On top of that if you're a scrapper, you will roll more chances to crit giving a higher DPS output

Mezes:  resistance both scrapper and tanks are the same in i13.  No matter how much mez protection you would have, you will get mezed, therefore, the most effective mezes are actually anything that has prolong animation. (Soul Storm is an unintended longer than normal mez due to the animation acting like both a hold and a knock up) Knockups  in particular possibly the best "mez" due to the animation time. Also for some reason, the old PvP rules where you need to stack mez protection still applies for KB/and KU attacks. Mezes means while they are not attacking, you are putting more DPS on them breaking a stalemate.

Which Defensive set to pick: Since both tank and scrapper needs to be identical and I established defense isn't worth anything, that will leave Dark, Fire, Electric, Invun. Each will have their advantages and disadvantage:

Dark: Dark has a decent all around resistance (except for Energy, but that's not a problem according to the parameters preset.) The two things going for Dark Armor, it has the 2nd strongest self-heals with the  fastest base CD time (30 seconds.) The other is cloak of fear. The ticking fear can give you a reprieve to do more DPS than your opponent (remember the i13 system no matter how much mag protection you have or how small the mez is, you will be mezed no matter what) Of course the down side of Dark armor for all the benefits to work, they do need to pass a hit check. Cloak of fear is just icing, but miss with Dark Regeneration, you need to wait 12-18 seconds before you can attempted it again. Also with these toggles and Dark Regeneration (34 end), Dark Armor is somewhat end heavy. Mez protection wise, Dark has no protection against knockback or knock-up so with those being a dominant mezes that will be an issue. Even with Acro, you will only get a mag 9 protection, but in this case, once you are held or stunned, acro with "shut off" allowing the opponent to use a knock up or a knockback attack.

Fire: Fire has a decent all around resistance (Except Ice but that's not a problem according to the parameters preset.) Normally when making a PvP Melee toon as a tank, fire is top on the list. The main reason is Fiery Embrace. Fiery Embrace acts like a 20 second buildup without the +hit buff. Have BU+FE+Tactics and you will out DPS other armor. Fire Armor also has the 2nd quickest self-heal (15-20 seconds) with a decent amount of heal when SOed, and only takes 10 end per pop. Endurance can be an issue with Fire PvP , but you do have consume to gain endurance. The disadvantage of fire like Dark is you have no KU/KB protection. Although the self-heal end is cheaper compared to dark, the base end uses for each of the armors are actually more (Dark is .21s while fire is .26s but that can be levitated with consume if needed. Downside of consume though, it does require a hit check.)

Invun: Invun basically makes Smash/Lethal worthless, but will leave you lacking in all other resistance (Full SO S/L caped at 90% you are at 31.2% res as a tank and 70% S/L with 23.4% res to everything else except Psi) Invun has Dull Pain, the strongest heal from the sets within the perimeter. Besides healing for 78%, you will also get 59% more HP.  Unlike the 2 sets above, you will have full mez protection including ku/kb. The disadvantages for invun are the following.  Since you are 1 v 1, Invincibility is pretty much useless and the amount of end you burn for the to-hit buff really is not worth it. Although Invun has the best heal, the CD on it can range from 135-184 seconds. Also stated in the start, S/L resistance is great, but everything else is lacking.

Electric: Electric is an interesting PvP wise. The resistance all around is great with negative being the lowest value. Electric has several things going for it. With electric armor, you will not burn out of end ever (unless you are playing against another sapper.)This is a combination of two factors. One, Power Sink will provide a huge end gain like consume. Unlike consume, Power Sink does not require a hit check so it will always give you end and you can use Power Sink offensively by crashing the other person's end. The second reason is Energize, Energize is an heal that acts like a 2 for 1. Not only does it heal, but also will give you end discount for 30 seconds. Ele armor also has a mini haste (Lightning Reflexes) that will assist your cycling more efficiently. The disadvantage of electric is really situational. Grounded will give you kb/ku protection, but if you jump or fly (no one flies in PvP xD) you will lose that protection. As good as energize is even with hasten and lightning reflexes the CD can range from 42-55 seconds.

Based on everything listed, the top defensive powers for this is either Fire or Electric

Offensive: Basically everything has S/L protection and a pretty decent amount of it. That will rule out the following:

Battle Axe, Martial Arts, Dual Blade, , Titan, Street Justice, Staff, Broadsword

Besides being S/L, these were ruled out due to animation time, damage output, and CD. This will further be further dropped down by the 2 armors selected as the best performing (Fire, Electric) because they will have capped resistance:

Fire Melee, Kinetic Melee

This will leave use with 2 choices:

War Mace, Dark Melee

War Mace: This one is smash, so why is this one a winner? Although it is smash, Mace has ton of strong single target attacks. One will say "didn't you say if something has a quick animation time and CD it will out DPS a heavy hitter?" That is true, but what Mace is couple with being a heavy hitter and CC in the same attacks. "Pulverize" and "Clobber" has disorient (remember doesn't matter how much res you have, if it CCs, it will affect you. Basically you can "Pulverize" or "Clobber" Toggles will drop then follow up with "Jawbreaker" for the knock-up animation creating a hold effect via animation giving you something like 4 seconds stun on a tank or a scrapper. The Knockup won't work if the opponent is  Electric Armor because of grounded (unless you somehow use "Pulverize" or "Clobber" while they are in the air and as they are falling you get off "Jawbreaker" which will cause a stun X long. X is based on how high they were and the time it takes them to hit the floor before doing the getup animation.) The disadvantage is the damage type is smash, so it is going to be the most resisted.

Dark Melee: Both Electric and Fire has only a 30-40% ish resistance for negative. So Dark Melee will do the most DPS not just because of the less resistance, but the attack animations are fairly quick and CD is low. Dark melee allows you to stack –hit, (though won't really matter when target BU+tactics) and has a second heal power that dose decent damage (Siphon Life) so you have another heal power every 3-5 seconds. Disadvantage of Dark Melee it does not have a pop Build Up. Your Build Up is Soul Drain. Unlike BU where it will give you a massive boost (20% +hit 100% dmg) Soul Drain will only give you 10% damage buff and 2% to hit with a base CD of 120 seconds and in order to get that bonus, you need to hit your target.

Mace/Fire Scrapper Vs Fire/Mace Tank

Who will win? Basically whoever can have their attack rotation down. Lock target, BU+FE Clobber (Quicker animation time than Pulverize) toggles drop, Jawbreaker, knock them up in the air Pulverize, Clobber off CD use that, Shatter (Target at this point should recover from KU)(10 second window closes) back out till BU recharges again.  Basically you will BU+FE, then just BU, then BU+FE. Whoever has the best reaction time and end management wins.

Mace/Electric Scrapper Vs Electric/Mace Tank

Similar to the mace/fire whoever gets their rotation down, they win. They issue here is catching the other out of position (when he is jumping) to get the combo off. If not, do the rotation till the target is dead.  They also can win by end crashing their opponent. When fully SOed, Power Sink will give 25 end while sapping 40 end with a –rec of 194%, so basically whoever is not paying attention to their debuffs will loose

Dark Melee/Fire Scrapper Vs Fire/Dark Melee Tank:

This one is whoever runs out of end first loses. You will be spamming Siphon Life every 4-7 seconds) and consume every 67-92 seconds. Couple that with Healing Flames, the only way someone will lose is when someone crashes end. Note also, you don't have access to a real BU so -hit can also play a factor.

Dark Melee/Electric Scrapper Vs Electric/Dark Melee Tank:

Same as the Mace/Electric, whoever saps the other first wins. Dark Melee will more than make up for the slow CD self-heal, so the only way you can win is end crashing the other guy.

Hope that answers your question

[LaughingAlex]

The only time my Defender/Fake Blaster was worth a damn was in PvP, I could usually see stalkers approaching when no one else could. I would usually get in a few good blasts and fly away before they closed in or at least spoil their AS. Even after they used Placate I could usually find them again in a few seconds.

I think her Perception was at or near the cap. Against pretty much anyone else but Stalkers she was hamburger.

Capped perception for non-veats was 10ft higher than the stealth cap for stalkers if the wiki was correct.  It was about 100 ft higher than stalker stealth cap for veats.  So when I say a character is omniscient and they are a widow, thats because they are probably perception capped on that character.  And I'll say it was very, very easy for those classes to get to the perception cap.

And that was also a reason I hated arrogant stalker rpers saying their stealth was impenetrable, because it was not only a form of god moding but mechanically you couldn't become 100% undetectable.

[Teikiatsu]

From my perspective, why play the game of "keep trying to find bigger sticks to hit them with" (melee classes), when you can change the rules?  That's what Controllers did - a few clicks and now the enemy isn't hitting as hard (or at all) and their defenses are lowered as well.  Throw in some buffs to make your meatshields (Scrappers, Brutes, etc) hit harder, and it's all over.

Same here.  I liked the way controllers altered the immediate combat terrain.  My illusion/storm was a beast in that regard.

So in that vein, who is more controllerish: Tank or Scrapper?  I vote Tank.

[Azrael]

Same here.  I liked the way controllers altered the immediate combat terrain.  My illusion/storm was a beast in that regard.

So in that vein, who is more controllerish: Tank or Scrapper?  I vote Tank.

I had fun playing 'diamond hard' tanks,  'untouchable' brutes, elegant 'ice trollers...' and exquisite elec/elec Dominators.  They could certainly 'alter' the 'terrain.'

In the end I liked the endless variety a Dominator gave.  Perma domination for some 'King of the Hill' mezzo domination.  A boss try the old 'I'm mezzo proof...' and an ounce of Domination later..., 'Oh no I'm not...' :P   

A bit of blap/scrap fringe pulling and 'slapping' around with melee.  A bit of ranged blasting and I quite liked that chained face blast..?  (...pretty vicious looking thing...)  Draining.  Sleeping.  Confusing mobs.  Bit of the old Gremlins (fragile as they were...) and Mu causing distraction chaos.

Sure, the hit points were akin to a bag of crisps...and overall, the damage wasn't so 'devasting' in direct way scrappers had (charmed lives they lead...) so I had to be careful on the battlefield.

A party Susan.  A tactical treat.

Azrael.

PS. Quote from: Teikiatsu on Today at 10:57:35 am

" I vote Tank."

I did like the visceral sway a tank had over mobs.  Pull to corner.  Pull to post.  Walk into a crowd.  Hurl taunt insult.  Pull crowd to crowd.  It was 'controllery' in a very direct way.

Mace/Elec tank was great for keeping several mobs swarming around you.  The Mace AoE attacks kept mobs agitated.

An energy/invul tank was good for that too.  Defence capped with one mob approaching me.  And diamond hard res'.  Mash time with Energy Transfer.

And the devastatingly direct AoE 'tank' SS/Shield Brute defence capped.  Scorched earth with that one.

Tanks.  Shame I took so long to 'get into' them.  Wasted far to many years on blasters. :P  (Though I'll give my Ice Blaptroller' a pass on that...)

Azrael.

[LaughingAlex]

Same here.  I liked the way controllers altered the immediate combat terrain.  My illusion/storm was a beast in that regard.

So in that vein, who is more controllerish: Tank or Scrapper?  I vote Tank.

Tankers gauntlet and the taunt made them very good at crowd control and thats what I saw them as.  But scrappers generally couldn't keep anything attacking them and they very rarely took confront.

[Arcana]

Dark Melee/Fire Scrapper Vs Fire/Dark Melee Tank:

This one is whoever runs out of end first loses. You will be spamming Siphon Life every 4-7 seconds) and consume every 67-92 seconds. Couple that with Healing Flames, the only way someone will lose is when someone crashes end. Note also, you don't have access to a real BU so -hit can also play a factor.

Because this is such a complicated question, it might be interesting to focus on a single pairing just to see where it goes, and to help illustrate why its such a complicated question.  Given the rules the OP set forth, we're in an all-SO, no epic, no invention situation.  Given that, if you're actually trying to win the fight what's the optimal slotting for SL?  Do you focus on the heal so the other guy can't kill you?  If the scrapper slots for heal, can the tanker overcome that by slotting for damage?  What if the scrapper slots for to hit debuff to try to nullify the tanker's SL?  With no restrictions, SL was a very strong (and often underrated) power, PvP or PvE.  But with nothing but SOs, you have a lot of choices to make.

Another problem: under the rules, endurance is a major problem.  Its virtually impossible to maintain a full attack chain without slotting for *heavy* endurance reduction.  Given that, is Hasten even a good idea given its crash?  Hasten speeds you up, but it provides absoutely no increase in DPE - it actually reduces overall DPE due to its costs.  In an all-SO situation, DPS is important but is DPE more important?  If you slot for heavy endurance reduction, do you leave yourself vulnerable to a player that goes all out for offense and other effects and can then overcome your mitigation in the short term?

[MM3squints]

Because this is such a complicated question, it might be interesting to focus on a single pairing just to see where it goes, and to help illustrate why its such a complicated question.  Given the rules the OP set forth, we're in an all-SO, no epic, no invention situation.  Given that, if you're actually trying to win the fight what's the optimal slotting for SL?  Do you focus on the heal so the other guy can't kill you?  If the scrapper slots for heal, can the tanker overcome that by slotting for damage?  What if the scrapper slots for to hit debuff to try to nullify the tanker's SL?  With no restrictions, SL was a very strong (and often underrated) power, PvP or PvE.  But with nothing but SOs, you have a lot of choices to make.

Do you mean SL as in smash lethal and what SOs to put in those powers? In this situation I would slot life tap with 2 acc, 3 heal, 1 end reduction SOs. Life tap dose a decent amount of damage, but the main use of it is for utility. The reason why I would use a end reduction over a recharge reduction is because this is the one power that will be spammed outside of your attack rotation.

Another problem: under the rules, endurance is a major problem.  Its virtually impossible to maintain a full attack chain without slotting for *heavy* endurance reduction.  Given that, is Hasten even a good idea given its crash?  Hasten speeds you up, but it provides absoutely no increase in DPE - it actually reduces overall DPE due to its costs.  In an all-SO situation, DPS is important but is DPE more important?  If you slot for heavy endurance reduction, do you leave yourself vulnerable to a player that goes all out for offense and other effects and can then overcome your mitigation in the short term?

Even with IO set bonuses, in a situation where it will end in a stalemate due to the nature of the powers, what determines who will win is whoever has the better attack rotation, end management, and debuff awareness. Yes hasten is a good idea, even with the end crash it gives. The main reason for hasten is to have BU recharge faster and have your attack rotation online when BU is up. Notice how my rotation only spans in 10 second intervals (unless of course they are at 20% then you chase and burn them.) This also why I said defense it not as desired as resistance in PvP. I don't care about the 20 seconds my BU is down and I won't probably attack you, but that 10 seconds my BU is up, your going to wish you didn't roll a defense toon. This is not only to maximize the damage while BU is up, but unnecessarily wasting end when I'm not at full dmg buff. You will see people just button mashing their attacks and they don't realize they will kill off their end for no reason. No end = toggle drop that means full dmg. The time you jump out the only end you will be wasting is your defensive clickies while your endurance reg. If your smart about it and seasoned, endurance management is second nature so even the hasten mini crash should not be an issue unless your going against a sapper.

[Arcana]

Do you mean SL as in smash lethal

Siphon Life ("power") in this case.

and what SOs to put in those powers? In this situation I would slot life tap with 2 acc, 3 heal, 1 end reduction SOs. Life tap dose a decent amount of damage, but the main use of it is for utility. The reason why I would use a end reduction over a recharge reduction is because this is the one power that will be spammed outside of your attack rotation.

In general I would tend to agree with you.  But is that still the best slotting in this specific case?  You said earlier that you felt DM/FA vs FA/DM was a mostly a draw.  Does that mean any other slotting of siphon life degrades it to the point where you'd be more likely to lose, or is there a slotting pattern that might not be the best in the general case but would provide an advantage in this one case?

Even with IO set bonuses, in a situation where it will end in a stalemate due to the nature of the powers, what determines who will win is whoever has the better attack rotation, end management, and debuff awareness. Yes hasten is a good idea, even with the end crash it gives. The main reason for hasten is to have BU recharge faster and have your attack rotation online when BU is up. Notice how my rotation only spans in 10 second intervals (unless of course they are at 20% then you chase and burn them.) This also why I said defense it not as desired as resistance in PvP. I don't care about the 20 seconds my BU is down and I won't probably attack you, but that 10 seconds my BU is up, your going to wish you didn't roll a defense toon. This is not only to maximize the damage while BU is up, but unnecessarily wasting end when I'm not at full dmg buff. You will see people just button mashing their attacks and they don't realize they will kill off their end for no reason. No end = toggle drop that means full dmg. The time you jump out the only end you will be wasting is your defensive clickies while your endurance reg. If your smart about it and seasoned, endurance management is second nature so even the hasten mini crash should not be an issue unless your going against a sapper.

I think the OP was asking a question more about the relative strength of powers and not on the tactical options available in real PvP combat.  In real PvP combat, you optimize for your best burst of activity, because you're not going to stick around to lose a long fight.  I think the OP wanted to know, if say we gave the powers to NPCs and had them bash each other with them, which one would tend to win more often.  Correct me if I'm wrong, OP.

[MM3squints]

Siphon Life ("power") in this case.

In general I would tend to agree with you.  But is that still the best slotting in this specific case?  You said earlier that you felt DM/FA vs FA/DM was a mostly a draw.  Does that mean any other slotting of siphon life degrades it to the point where you'd be more likely to lose, or is there a slotting pattern that might not be the best in the general case but would provide an advantage in this one case?

All depends on how you want to deal with the situation. Right now I have to run to a wedding so I'll give you that analysis latter

[Arcana]

Here's a quick and dirty back of the envelope calculation, using easy to find numbers (still don't have the time to do a thorough analysis, so this is the best I can think up for now).  According to CoD, siphon life's heal is about 187 for tankers.  Slotted as recommended (2 acc, 3 heal 1 end) it heals for about 365 per cycle.  Lets assume SL fires as often as possible, its base cycle time is about 12 seconds.

That means if it hits as often as possible (95% of the time) its net heal will be about 28.9 h/s.  In fact, since base PvP tohit is 50%, its actual landing percentage will be 50% * 1.67 = 83.5%, which equates to about 25.4 h/s.  It will also be *dealing* 121 points of damage per hit, or about 8.4 dps, and landing a -5.25% tohit debuff for 10 out of 12 seconds, averaging (with hit percentage) about -3.65% tohit.

Now flipping around to the scrapper: if we slot the scrapper's SL the same way, we end up with 134*1.95 /12 * 0.835 = 18.2 h/s and 171 * 1.05 / 12 * 0.835 = 12.5 dps and -5.625 * 10/12 * 0.835 = -3.9% tohit.

Now, without solving equations and doing an incremental estimate, we can guestimate that the tohit debuff of the scrapper SL is reducing net tohit from about 83.5% to (50-3.9)*1.67 = 77%.  In effect, its reducing tohit to 77/83.5 = 0.922, or 92.2% of the original value, a reduction of 7.8%.  Suppose we reslot for tohit instead of heal (2acc 3tohit 1 end).  In that case, the scrapper's SL heal drops to 134/12*.835=9.3 h/s, and its debuff rises to 5.625 * 1.56 * 10/12 * 0.835 = -6.1%.  That equates to a tohit drop rate of about 12.2%.

So our heal drops from 18.2 to 9.3, but our debuff drops the tanker's total damage by 12.2%.  Since tankers have 40% more health, you'd assume that every point of heal lost to the scrapper must be made up by at least 1.4 points of damage to the tanker to be a fair trade.  So losing about 9 health per second of heal is equal to gaining about 12.6 dps.  For the differential of tohit debuff increase (from 7.8% to 12.2%) to be worth it, 4.4% of the tanker's damage must be more than 12.6dps.  That implies the tanker is doing 286 dps.  That's highly unlikely.

So if we *only* look at the difference between slotting SL for heal and slotting for debuff, slotting for heal wins.  But all of this doesn't account for the fact that all (well, almost all) other DM attacks also have tohit debuff.  Why that's significant is that the differential value of tohit debuff is based on the base tohit (before accuracy) that you are debuffing.  I'm assuming base 50% tohit.  But if the scrapper and tanker are debuffing each other with other DM attacks, their effective base to hit is lower than that, and that makes even more tohit debuff more valuable.  However, it also means the tanker's effective dps would have to be lower as well.  There is a break even point, but I don't have time to calculate it directly.  I believe, though, for a presumptive dps around 100 dps or so, its probably so low that once again, they wouldn't have enough damage to kill each other.  But that's a guess at the moment.

Its probably worth noting that even if one side or the other could generate enough damage to kill the other, its partially rendered academic because to the best of my memory Fiery Aura doesn't have fear protection.  That means if either side felt they were losing, they could force a draw by spamming touch of fear (which is, hands down, the most ludicrously powerful mez outside of EMP).

[Biz]

That means if either side felt they were losing, they could force a draw by spamming touch of fear (which is, hands down, the most ludicrously powerful mez outside of EMP).

I was thinking this while reading your entire analysis. ToF is the reason this would always be a draw.

[HEATSTROKE]

I had fun playing exquisite Dominators. 

In the end I liked the endless variety a Dominator gave. 

Pretty much this is all of your post that I read LOL  ;D

[MM3squints]

Siphon Life ("power") in this case.

In general I would tend to agree with you.  But is that still the best slotting in this specific case?  You said earlier that you felt DM/FA vs FA/DM was a mostly a draw.  Does that mean any other slotting of siphon life degrades it to the point where you'd be more likely to lose, or is there a slotting pattern that might not be the best in the general case but would provide an advantage in this one case?
Here's a quick and dirty back of the envelope calculation, using easy to find numbers (still don't have the time to do a thorough analysis, so this is the best I can think up for now).  According to CoD, siphon life's heal is about 187 for tankers.  Slotted as recommended (2 acc, 3 heal 1 end) it heals for about 365 per cycle.  Lets assume SL fires as often as possible, its base cycle time is about 12 seconds.

That means if it hits as often as possible (95% of the time) its net heal will be about 28.9 h/s.  In fact, since base PvP tohit is 50%, its actual landing percentage will be 50% * 1.67 = 83.5%, which equates to about 25.4 h/s.  It will also be *dealing* 121 points of damage per hit, or about 8.4 dps, and landing a -5.25% tohit debuff for 10 out of 12 seconds, averaging (with hit percentage) about -3.65% tohit.

Now flipping around to the scrapper: if we slot the scrapper's SL the same way, we end up with 134*1.95 /12 * 0.835 = 18.2 h/s and 171 * 1.05 / 12 * 0.835 = 12.5 dps and -5.625 * 10/12 * 0.835 = -3.9% tohit.

Now, without solving equations and doing an incremental estimate, we can guestimate that the tohit debuff of the scrapper SL is reducing net tohit from about 83.5% to (50-3.9)*1.67 = 77%.  In effect, its reducing tohit to 77/83.5 = 0.922, or 92.2% of the original value, a reduction of 7.8%.  Suppose we reslot for tohit instead of heal (2acc 3tohit 1 end).  In that case, the scrapper's SL heal drops to 134/12*.835=9.3 h/s, and its debuff rises to 5.625 * 1.56 * 10/12 * 0.835 = -6.1%.  That equates to a tohit drop rate of about 12.2%.

So our heal drops from 18.2 to 9.3, but our debuff drops the tanker's total damage by 12.2%.  Since tankers have 40% more health, you'd assume that every point of heal lost to the scrapper must be made up by at least 1.4 points of damage to the tanker to be a fair trade.  So losing about 9 health per second of heal is equal to gaining about 12.6 dps.  For the differential of tohit debuff increase (from 7.8% to 12.2%) to be worth it, 4.4% of the tanker's damage must be more than 12.6dps.  That implies the tanker is doing 286 dps.  That's highly unlikely.

So if we *only* look at the difference between slotting SL for heal and slotting for debuff, slotting for heal wins.  But all of this doesn't account for the fact that all (well, almost all) other DM attacks also have tohit debuff.  Why that's significant is that the differential value of tohit debuff is based on the base tohit (before accuracy) that you are debuffing.  I'm assuming base 50% tohit.  But if the scrapper and tanker are debuffing each other with other DM attacks, their effective base to hit is lower than that, and that makes even more to hit debuff more valuable.  However, it also means the tanker's effective dps would have to be lower as well.  There is a break even point, but I don't have time to calculate it directly.  I believe, though, for a presumptive dps around 100 dps or so, its probably so low that once again, they wouldn't have enough damage to kill each other.  But that's a guess at the moment.

That's why I said whoever wins will be the one who pays attention to their debuffs. Slotting even with SOs is like poker, you don't know how they slotted unless you start looking at the numbers (in this case because you are fighting against a dark, you will be evaluating To Hit) Once you make that analysis you will essentially take tactical maneuvers to only attack when the least amount of debuffs are applied and kite when debuffs are applied. The guy that slotted for to hit debuff will be at a disadvantage at that point because the tank that slotted for heal will have a higher survivability with bigger heals. Keep in mind when PvPing it isn't two toons just standing stationary and just taking blows (which sounds like what your analysis is based on if they were to just keep taking the debuffs without kiting out of the way.) PvP is dynamic movement is a factor and no one in their right mind will allow someone to just wail on them when their rotation is down.

I think the OP was asking a question more about the relative strength of powers and not on the tactical options available in real PvP combat.  In real PvP combat, you optimize for your best burst of activity, because you're not going to stick around to lose a long fight.  I think the OP wanted to know, if say we gave the powers to NPCs and had them bash each other with them, which one would tend to win more often.  Correct me if I'm wrong, OP.

When you PvP, tactical positioning is needed to take account. If not the variables are set and there really isn't a point. In the case where 2 people just stand like statues and just mash powers, that's just silly to me, but to each their own.  When the OP said 1 v 1, I assumed an actual PvP match, not just 2 toons stationary, but that's really the Ops interpretation. If you are PvPing, then whoever has the quicker reaction time, end management, and attack rotation will win. If your just staying still like statue, in the case of dark melee, whoever can apply more debuff will win.

Its probably worth noting that even if one side or the other could generate enough damage to kill the other, its partially rendered academic because to the best of my memory Fiery Aura doesn't have fear protection.  That means if either side felt they were losing, they could force a draw by spamming touch of fear (which is, hands down, the most ludicrously powerful mez outside of EMP).

It doesn't matter if FA had fear protection (it doesn't.) With the new rule setup, if you get Mezed, you will be mezed. All the "protection dose is reduce the duration of the Mez (so you will reduce a 2 second mez for something a few milliseconds) Keep in mind once you become mezed and get out of mez, you will be immune to all mezes (excpet KU/KB which is not considered a traditional mez that's why you can have that 4 second stun as a mace) for a duration (if I remember it was 10-15 seconds. This also the other reason why you do attacks in intervals so when you do your assault, all mez timers will be off) so that will just give you a temporary reprieve, but you can't mez lock someone.  EMP in PvP wise is a terrible Mez because you gimp yourself with vulnerable with a -1000% rec. Like I stated before, the most powerful mezes are the ones that can be used in combination with animation loop. One of the reasons why Mind/Fire doms are king in PvP (they were good pre i13 post i13 they turned into a I win button) Actually is kind of funny because of the set numbers of mez duration post i13. People stopped slotting for the actual mez duration if the mez dose dmg and opt out for dmg due to the enchantment modification will crap to duration.

[LaughingAlex]

I think a lesson here would be, when the game starts, monitor things like your to-hit and defense ratings actively.  They are as much your life as your health and endurance bar.

[brothermutant]

I think a lesson here would be, when the game starts, monitor things like your to-hit and defense ratings actively.  They are as much your life as your health and endurance bar.

I always have the Main def of my toons as well as regen, recov, and recharge stats going all the time so I can see if I get debuffed or if something is actively screwing any of these numbers up. Saved my butt many a time when on missions.

[FloatingFatMan]

Here's a quick and dirty back of the envelope calculation, using easy to find numbers (still don't have the time to do a thorough analysis, so this is the best I can think up for now).  According to CoD, siphon life's heal is about 187 for tankers.  Slotted as recommended (2 acc, 3 heal 1 end) it heals for about 365 per cycle.  Lets assume SL fires as often as possible, its base cycle time is about 12 seconds.

...

My cat's breath smells of cat food.

[P51mus]

I think a lesson here would be, when the game starts, monitor things like your to-hit and defense ratings actively.  They are as much your life as your health and endurance bar.

Yeah, and CoT ghosts are especially bad for that early on.  I've fought those things until they ran out of end on a tanker before.