Doubters and Downers. . .

[OzonePrime]

I refuse to give up hope that someday CoH will come back. Stranger things have happened, things that people deemed impossible.

https://i.imgur.com/LXQ656P.gif

My avatar holds her torch high, just for that day!  Never give up! Never surrender!

[Twisted Toon]

I refuse to give up hope that someday CoH will come back. Stranger things have happened, things that people deemed impossible.

I would say that one of those stranger things would be the return of Apollo 13 after it suffered critical failure on its mission.

[duane]

If the lights remain out a few more months that's fine.

If news or false good news got out only to be retracte, what a horrendous blow to the morale of the community.  Keep the people talking in the back room until it's a solid announcement and let this scuttlebutt just sit.

A number of years ago a merger at work was announced... Even by the owner.  Then the financing fell thru and everyone had egg on their face. I will be glad to see that not happen here.

[Harermuir]

Well, i m very pesssimistic now. I dont see what's the point in letting these last that long. Either NCsoft want to sell or they dont. Il they do, i think they should want to sell it as fast as reasonnably possible. And the lack of any visible progress dismiss this possibility. If they dont, they have just success in shutting us down with absolutely no cost for them except some hours for one or two guys. Now, they just have to sey later for ever. And we will just stay quiet in hope they are not lying.

And even if at some point they was thinking of selling, if they have change their mind, it's just better for them to let us think that there is still a possibility, cause that keep us in hope and concerned about not doing anything that can drive them mad at us.

[Stealth Dart]

:(

[Harermuir]

Well, first, if you dont want to read message from doubters and downers, i fear you are not in the right place.

It only cost NCsoft a signifiant amount of money if they actually plan to sell the game. Lawer and technician are not needed that much if they are only just making us chase our tails. And in fact, if they really want to sell the game, the more time it takes to settle a deal, the more it wwill be costly for them, and the less profit they can hope to make, especially with a property that is not worth that much money. Based on what I know, which must be all the thing that have appended the past 3 months, because we have heard nothing new during the last three month, the more believable situation is that we are in a dead end. NCsoft may know this from the start or no. But still, they have no interrest in making it clear, because it will just provoke a new surge of hate against them in the community. So there best move is just to let us hope that we are going somewhere, even if it's not the case.

I have to add that there may be some top secrets negociations on the future of the game which may take months, years or  decades to reach a conclusion. Anyway, if such a thing exist, i m pretty sure that they have absolutely no chance of succes if any rubbish posted on the internet by people who have no involvment in the negotiation can cause their failure. If they are secret, whatever the community do cannot be linked in anyway with their outcome.

[BadWolf]

Well, first, if you dont want to read message from doubters and downers, i fear you are not in the right place.

It only cost NCsoft a signifiant amount of money if they actually plan to sell the game. Lawer and technician are not needed that much if they are only just making us chase our tails. And in fact, if they really want to sell the game, the more time it takes to settle a deal, the more it wwill be costly for them, and the less profit they can hope to make, especially with a property that is not worth that much money. Based on what I know, which must be all the thing that have appended the past 3 months, because we have heard nothing new during the last three month, the more believable situation is that we are in a dead end. NCsoft may know this from the start or no. But still, they have no interrest in making it clear, because it will just provoke a new surge of hate against them in the community. So there best move is just to let us hope that we are going somewhere, even if it's not the case.

I have to add that there may be some top secrets negociations on the future of the game which may take months, years or  decades to reach a conclusion. Anyway, if such a thing exist, i m pretty sure that they have absolutely no chance of succes if any rubbish posted on the internet by people who have no involvment in the negotiation can cause their failure. If they are secret, whatever the community do cannot be linked in anyway with their outcome.

If they didn't want to sell the game, they just wouldn't have ever responded to Nate's inquiries. The game was dead, and people were slowly drifting away from the fanbase. If they wanted to stop people from caring about the game, stonewalling was doing the trick just fine. The idea that they're entering into endlessly protracted negotiations that they have no intention of ever following through on, in order to reduce the frustration level of the CoH community? That doesn't make sense if you think about it for even thirty seconds.

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

If they didn't want to sell the game, they just wouldn't have ever responded to Nate's inquiries. The game was dead, and people were slowly drifting away from the fanbase. If they wanted to stop people from caring about the game, stonewalling was doing the trick just fine. The idea that they're entering into endlessly protracted negotiations that they have no intention of ever following through on, in order to reduce the frustration level of the CoH community? That doesn't make sense if you think about it for even thirty seconds.

Actually it makes more sense the less you think about it and less sense the more you think about it; 2.6 seconds is just about the plausibility sweet spot in my opinion. Less than that and you can't really process it and any more makes it start losing plausibility. i suspect some combination Poe's Law and standard absurdist humor went into Harermuir's post.

[Taceus Jiwede]

If they didn't want to sell the game, they just wouldn't have ever responded to Nate's inquiries. The game was dead, and people were slowly drifting away from the fanbase. If they wanted to stop people from caring about the game, stonewalling was doing the trick just fine. The idea that they're entering into endlessly protracted negotiations that they have no intention of ever following through on, in order to reduce the frustration level of the CoH community? That doesn't make sense if you think about it for even thirty seconds.

I agree that makes no sense.  The most logical answer is the correct one I think.  Business deals take time.  Its only been 4 months.  4 months isn't much time for a business deal.  This happens every time there is any bit of news or any kind of slow down.  It happened with Rae and VV, it happened to Ironwolf, and now its happening to Nate.  Perhaps everyone shouldn't be so quick to turn on the hand that is trying to feed them.  These things take time as been stated countless times.   Just let the people who are trying to help us, actually help us.  And lets all stop trying to be a bunch of Debby downers and nay-saying the possible return of the game.  It's everything but helpful.  Have some patience, and accept the game is going to take time to return.  No news IS good news.  NCSoft hasn't laughed in Nates face yet and told him to take a hike.  Which is a damn good sign.  Of course he isn't going to share any information with us.  We have proven time and time again we cannot handle new information correctly and even if he did give us new information, a month from now people would be saying the exact same things they are saying now, the only difference there would be 1 more rumor for people to be spreading and freaking out about.

Lets all give the people who are fighting for us a break.  Its either we are doubting them, demanding information from them, or calling them trolls.

When really we should just start being thankful and patient.

[Abraxus]

We are all only able to form thoughts and opinions based on the information provided, which has been scant.  That kind of scenario, and the time that has gone by since we all thought the game would be back before the end of the year, combined with our daily (if not more frequently) checking for ANY news, or positive developments eventually allows us to entertain our worst fears.  Its human nature.

As I have stated elsewhere, I have no doubts that this will eventually happen.  My issues start with the fact that this deal is being conducted on a pace, and in a manner befitting a HOT gaming property.  Not a 12 year old game that has been out of circulation for 2 years.  If NCSoft has any desire to make some decent coin on such an old property, logic would suggest that the more time that goes by, the less it is worth.  Also, if they wish to have a ready-made community at re-launch, dragging it out will only reduce the potential size of it when people grow tired of waiting, and move on.  Business deals CAN go as quickly as the parties involved wish them to go.  If NCSoft wanted this to happen sooner, it damned well would. 

So, the only conclusion I can come to after all of this is, there is a crucial piece of information that we don't know which gives NCSoft a reason to do things as if this IS the hot game property they are treating it like.  I grant that I am not privy to any information outside of what I have read here for the past few months, so any conjecture I have for why things go on this way is, hamstrung by what I don't know.  That does not make me feel any better about having no idea about when or how to set realistic expectations for coming home to my beloved Paragon City.

Bottom line is, if I did not care as much as I do, it would not bother me so much.  However, I do promise to keep all of my complaints about all of this confined to this thread from now on.  No more letting it spill over to the status threads.  Scouts honor.

[Burnt Toast]

As I have stated MULTIPLE times now in response to your MULTIPLE albeit similar rants... You do not know what is going on... you do not know the intricacies involved in this deal... and whether the game is a hot new game or a 10 year old game (No clue where you got 12 years since CoH debuted in 2004 and it's still 2014) there are a plethora of issues which need to be resolved to ensure a smooth transaction.


There are NDAs in place which limit the amount of information that can be shared...plain and simple. You and anyone else claiming a lack of updates means this or that...are again doing nothing but fear mongering. No specific information can be given out except to say that the process is ongoing. This type of closed information is common in business transactions... VERY common especially when dealing with Copyright/Trademark/IP issues.


FYI... please don't speak for me or the rest of Titan by making statements such as "since we all thought the game would be back before the end of the year"
No actually I didn't think it would be back by the end of the year...and I'm well aware of many others who didn't either. Did SOME people or a FEW people think that...sure, but that is/was a very unrealistic goal that MANY of us knew due to the complexities of an international transaction of this nature would never be achievable.

We are all only able to form thoughts and opinions based on the information provided, which has been scant.  That kind of scenario, and the time that has gone by since we all thought the game would be back before the end of the year, combined with our daily (if not more frequently) checking for ANY news, or positive developments eventually allows us to entertain our worst fears.  Its human nature.

As I have stated elsewhere, I have no doubts that this will eventually happen.  My issues start with the fact that this deal is being conducted on a pace, and in a manner befitting a HOT gaming property.  Not a 12 year old game that has been out of circulation for 2 years.  If NCSoft has any desire to make some decent coin on such an old property, logic would suggest that the more time that goes by, the less it is worth.  Also, if they wish to have a ready-made community at re-launch, dragging it out will only reduce the potential size of it when people grow tired of waiting, and move on.  Business deals CAN go as quickly as the parties involved wish them to go.  If NCSoft wanted this to happen sooner, it damned well would. 

So, the only conclusion I can come to after all of this is, there is a crucial piece of information that we don't know which gives NCSoft a reason to do things as if this IS the hot game property they are treating it like.  I grant that I am not privy to any information outside of what I have read here for the past few months, so any conjecture I have for why things go on this way is, hamstrung by what I don't know.  That does not make me feel any better about having no idea about when or how to set realistic expectations for coming home to my beloved Paragon City.

Bottom line is, if I did not care as much as I do, it would not bother me so much.  However, I do promise to keep all of my complaints about all of this confined to this thread from now on.  No more letting it spill over to the status threads.  Scouts honor.

[duane]

(.... Big long quote)

I generally agree with you Burnt Toast.  The only detail is coh really does pre-date even 2002 for development.  There are the  earliest videos  of the game at e3 2002.  My, what an interesting comparison to what really came out.

All this second guessing and baseless accusations such as ncsoft lining their pockets currently has no place.  Unless you have an inked copy of the contract in front of you its all conjecture, lies or brain droppings that hold no merit.

So, this holiday season as you have some extra time on your hands do stop by the thread to check in and then get back to your Holiday Festivities.

[Relitner]

No actually I didn't think it would be back by the end of the year...and I'm well aware of many others who didn't either. Did SOME people or a FEW people think that...sure, but that is/was a very unrealistic goal that MANY of us knew due to the complexities of an international transaction of this nature would never be achievable.

Seconded. Take it from a guy who works in a "Scrum" type environment - if this project is both low importance and low urgency from NCSoft's standpoint, we'll continue to see glacier-like movement. From my own perspective, I have a number of work items that are low importance/low urgency and continue to fall to the bottom of the pile when our two week "sprint" is scheduled. Some of them are quite "aged".

[Ironwolf]

I am amazed that last March we had no hopes at all of anything happening and there were no talks and no team making an effort to restore the game and yet now that we do have people openly and actively trying - some of you aren't happy?

Really?

They are not moving slowly because it is a "Hot" game - its not. They are moving slowly because at NCSoft like a lot of companies people have been laid off - have you missed that news? They are working a very complex deal and tying up one or more of their employees to monitor the IP leases. They are working with another group to get the Classic game running again.

This is not a simple deal, but for crying out loud - you don't just have hope now you have certainty that it is moving forward. You have Warcabbit and Nate "Downix" Downes both telling you the deal is still going forward as they work out the sticking points.

You can't bully people into telling you more. You can't bully NCSoft into working faster. You can't help by being obnoxious and or casting fear , uncertainty and doubt on what is happening. People are spending their own personal money to get your game back and all some of you can do is complain? They are trying and working with NCSoft is not easy. If the old Paragon Studios guys haven't convinced you of that what would it take?

But NCSoft is working with us - their way and since they hold all the cards - that is what we have to accept. That is reality and not some fantasy. This is nothing more than a business deal and if you don't understand how the business world works - then find out before you spout off.

[Abraxus]

Sorry folks, but right or wrong, my expectations were set higher than the reality of the situation.  You can throw all the business reasons why that should not have been the case at this you wish.  Once done, it is done.  Those expectations were not met, so there is disappointment.  The title of this thread would seem to indicate that this is the right place to express that kind of disappointment, and yet even here there seems to be a "if you are not happy about it, then its your own fault" vibe going on.

Its a free country, and every opinion has a counter opinion.  You can tell me all day long that I don't possess all of the facts on this.  In fact, I believe I said that a couple of posts ago.  However, when it comes to the idea that somehow, because this community is so large, and so vibrant, that everything will be just fine no matter how long all of this takes, I have to wonder who is kidding who?  It might seem like we are all of that, but it really only seems that way.  In relative terms, we are still a mere sliver of the gaming world.  Even if we are are thousands, that is not enough for long term viability for any business venture.  This game has to come back soon to gain a foothold, and efforts towards the next step in its evolution have to follow soon enough afterward to take advantage of the momentum to further build the player base.  Relying on this community alone will not bring CoH back for good.  It has to attract new players, and with all of the competition for attention out there, and the short attention spans of most younger players, it is going to be tough even if everything goes just right.

So, whether it happens sooner or later, I will be there.  I just feel that if NCSoft in all of their business wisdom, does not see that keeping this on the usual pace of business might be adversely affecting the chances for it to succeed, then perhaps there is some information they are missing.  I might not know everything going on with the business end, but I know something of people, and a 12 year old game with 2 years of downtime is going to be fighting an uphill battle to carve out a piece of the community under the best of circumstances.  Additional time will not improve that situation.

Believe me when I say I would rather be talking about actually playing the game, and sharing those experiences, but those are over two years old now, and nothing new on the horizon.  I look forward to the day when that is no longer so.

[Burnt Toast]

1. Stop blaming NCSoft. Seriously. We get it you think they are horrible business people, but basically calling them ignorant/lazy/whatever it is you are going for... is not helpful. NCSoft is participating in these negotiation with due diligence and in good faith...for you to insinuate otherwise is nothing but fear-mongering and misrepresenting both NCSoft as well as the team working on the deal.


2. This is going on the usual pace for business... not sure how many times and how many people have to tell you that. How many international negotiations have you participated in over IP??? I don't care what you read online or in a magazine... IP deals...especially ones that are international...take time... a lot of time. NO ONE wants screwed over in this deal... NO ONE. NCSoft was not the one's seeking a buyer and were not prepared for this...so they are going to make sure they are covered and get what they want....


3. CoH launched on April 27, 2004... It is 10 years and 8 months old... not 12 years old. No one played live in 2002....


4. You are free to express your opinion as much as you want...but then there are others who will state the facts of the situation. I think the reason your posts bother some people more so is that you have 6 posts... 5 of which are basically you attempting to cause doubt, spreading misinformation, and generally attempting to cause others to be pessimistic....
It's one thing to be pessimistic because you lack information to the contrary...and then it's another to be pessimistic just to be pessimistic; which is how you are coming off.

Sorry folks, but right or wrong, my expectations were set higher than the reality of the situation.  You can throw all the business reasons why that should not have been the case at this you wish.  Once done, it is done.  Those expectations were not met, so there is disappointment.  The title of this thread would seem to indicate that this is the right place to express that kind of disappointment, and yet even here there seems to be a "if you are not happy about it, then its your own fault" vibe going on.

Its a free country, and every opinion has a counter opinion.  You can tell me all day long that I don't possess all of the facts on this.  In fact, I believe I said that a couple of posts ago.  However, when it comes to the idea that somehow, because this community is so large, and so vibrant, that everything will be just fine no matter how long all of this takes, I have to wonder who is kidding who?  It might seem like we are all of that, but it really only seems that way.  In relative terms, we are still a mere sliver of the gaming world.  Even if we are are thousands, that is not enough for long term viability for any business venture.  This game has to come back soon to gain a foothold, and efforts towards the next step in its evolution have to follow soon enough afterward to take advantage of the momentum to further build the player base.  Relying on this community alone will not bring CoH back for good.  It has to attract new players, and with all of the competition for attention out there, and the short attention spans of most younger players, it is going to be tough even if everything goes just right.

So, whether it happens sooner or later, I will be there.  I just feel that if NCSoft in all of their business wisdom, does not see that keeping this on the usual pace of business might be adversely affecting the chances for it to succeed, then perhaps there is some information they are missing.  I might not know everything going on with the business end, but I know something of people, and a 12 year old game with 2 years of downtime is going to be fighting an uphill battle to carve out a piece of the community under the best of circumstances.  Additional time will not improve that situation.

Believe me when I say I would rather be talking about actually playing the game, and sharing those experiences, but those are over two years old now, and nothing new on the horizon.  I look forward to the day when that is no longer so.

[Harpospoke]

In the spirit of the thread, I kind of get how a person could be pessimistic.   We all got burned once.  The die-hards (us) were heavily invested in the game emotionally so that kind of hurt doesn't fade away.  Being optimistic after the shutdown announcement didn't work out.

And in other threads I have seen various posters talking about how their lives have changed since shutdown and that will probably have a negative effect on how much they can play.   Heck....I've got a little of that too.   I really doubt I can play as much now.   And "gamers" (I'm not one of those...I only played CoH) are now playing other games and developing attachments to those.   So the ticking of the clock is probably a real thing too.   Being patient in the face of that is probably not easy for Nate and company either.

But when you've got the type of people involved with this that we do, it is very heartening.   These are the type of people who never give up.   Some even thrive on being doubted!   So in my mind, the odds are with us in a big way.   It's happening.....one way or another.

So the fact that my life has changed a bit is a doubled-edged sword.   The negative is that I probably won't be able to play as much, but the positive is that I'm keeping busy while I wait for CoH to come back.    :D

[Abraxus]

1. Stop blaming NCSoft. Seriously. We get it you think they are horrible business people, but basically calling them ignorant/lazy/whatever it is you are going for... is not helpful. NCSoft is participating in these negotiation with due diligence and in good faith...for you to insinuate otherwise is nothing but fear-mongering and misrepresenting both NCSoft as well as the team working on the deal.


2. This is going on the usual pace for business... not sure how many times and how many people have to tell you that. How many international negotiations have you participated in over IP??? I don't care what you read online or in a magazine... IP deals...especially ones that are international...take time... a lot of time. NO ONE wants screwed over in this deal... NO ONE. NCSoft was not the one's seeking a buyer and were not prepared for this...so they are going to make sure they are covered and get what they want....


3. CoH launched on April 27, 2004... It is 10 years and 8 months old... not 12 years old. No one played live in 2002....


4. You are free to express your opinion as much as you want...but then there are others who will state the facts of the situation. I think the reason your posts bother some people more so is that you have 6 posts... 5 of which are basically you attempting to cause doubt, spreading misinformation, and generally attempting to cause others to be pessimistic....
It's one thing to be pessimistic because you lack information to the contrary...and then it's another to be pessimistic just to be pessimistic; which is how you are coming off.

1.  I don't "blame" NCSoft for anything other than perhaps not availing themselves of the opportunity to strike while the iron is hot (more reddish yellow, than white hot at this point I am afraid).  The ONLY point I have been trying to make is that the power to move this forward is completely theirs to govern, and the indicators are (unless there is an announcement pending very soon) that they are in no particular hurry.  I contend that the more time that goes by, the more the risk to the long term viability of any proposed business model around this game.  I may not have all the information, at my disposal, and I may not be an expert in international business transactions....but I have been around, and I know enough, and have seen enough to tell me they are not doing themselves any favors with this approach.

2. I have been in the employ of a large company for over 20 years, and I know for a fact that when an entity wants something to happen in a given time, they move heaven and earth to make it so.  Granted, since this is not an American company, there are likely more legal complications.  I don't know where your expertise on such matters comes from, but it seems to me that you are a little too trusting of their motives, and motivations on everything concerning this move.  My experience tells me that ALL of it revolves around making money.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Never let yourself believe that they care one whit for this game, or this community.  It is a property which represents a monetary value.  If that is an axiom that is acceptable to anyone, then you understand where I am coming from that they are diminishing its value with every passing day.  There were not that many of us left when it shut down, and a smaller number than that will return initially at least.  Those that do return will do so in the hopes of playing the nostalgic version, while they wait for newer improved versions to come.  All of this has to happen in a reasonable time frame, or the interest will wane.  That is not pessimism.  That is human nature.

3.  12 years, or 10 years 8 months.  In the gaming world, that is a lifetime!  Look how many versions of Battlefield, Halo, and other huge games have come, and slipped into obscurity in that time.  If they don't come out with a new one every year, someone else will be there to fill the gap, so they do indeed come out with a new one every year!  As much as I love CoH, in even the most optimistic scenario, they will be hard pressed to carve out a niche against all of that.  Yes, things in the gaming world have changed a lot in those 10 years 8 months.  PC games do not command the majority of the market as they did back then, so I see this as an uphill battle.  One that I would like very much to beat the odds, mind you.  You may find that hard to believe, but it is true.  At the same time, I am very much aware of the situation as it stands today versus how it was back then.

4.  Facts of the situation?  Seems to me that the lack of that kind of information is one of the primary reason that such a degree of pessimism can manifest itself.  We all here go on the few nuggets of factual information we have, and supposition the rest.  I don't really care how they do their business.  However, I will criticize the fact that once the veracity, and business viability/acumen of the people making the offer to NCSoft was accepted, basically all information stopped.  With all of the previous iterations of attempts to get this off the ground, there has already been too much time (as it is measured in the gaming world) gone by since CoH was even a presence in the market.  If they don't get it out there soon, all that will be left are those of us who never found satisfaction playing any other game, and will come back to it no matter the fact that it starts as an outdated engine with some cool features we have come to cherish.  I still contend that community is not so large as some would estimate.  Not from a business perspective, and especially not relative to other juggernaut gaming properties vying for your dollar. 

I am not here to piss all over what is potentially happening out there in CoH land.  On the other hand, I have come to a thread called "Doubters and downers" where I thought I might find like minded folks to commiserate with on the state of things, such as they are.  Apparently, even though I have been expressing these thoughts in the correct place, it does not seem to be enough.  The message I am receiving loud and clear is "don't rain on our sunshine filled parade" no matter where one does it.  It is not enough for some to disagree with my point of view.  They would prefer that I stop expressing it.  Up to this point, I have taken that as a challenge to respond in-kind.  However, if there are none out there who agree with anything I am saying, then it is no longer a debate.  It is just a contest of wills to see who blinks first.  Well, congrats.  I blinked....you win.  My opinion is unchanged, your opinions are unchanged, so we agree to disagree, and it is at an end.

BTW, one should not make the mistake of judging someone else by their post count.  It really is not a good indicator of anything but how many times someone pushed the "post" button on this forum.

[Remaugen]

. . . .<Snip!>. . .
FYI... please don't speak for me or the rest of Titan by making statements such as "since we all thought the game would be back before the end of the year"
No actually I didn't think it would be back by the end of the year...and I'm well aware of many others who didn't either. Did SOME people or a FEW people think that...sure, but that is/was a very unrealistic goal that MANY of us knew due to the complexities of an international transaction of this nature would never be achievable.

I honestly expected to be playing by Halloween. Obviously I was wrong, and again my Thanksgiving dreams and now my hopes for Christmas/New Years are looking out of the question too. But my point is that yes, I really did expect things to happen much faster. To be fair, it is difficult to understand exactly WHY things are not already concluded. . . .

Folks say "Korean Business Methods" or whatever, but I lived in Korea for three years, I even married a Korean national, and I have never seen that slow motion style or mentality amongst Koreans. In my experience, if a bucks involved, they deal right now, they simply don't wait to make a buck and immediately move on to the next opportunity!

Still though, I am confident that this deal will happen and I still think we are "Almost there", but I am uncertain of why we aren't there already!

[Surelle]

Well, on the bright side, there don't look to be any more new "informational demand" threads cropping up anymore!  So kudos to the OP of this thread.  Mission accomplished.   :D