NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us

[General Idiot]

The only thing that makes no sense to me with that is why does a new game coming out mean they have to get rid of an old one? Is there some obscure Korean law or something I don't know about that'd massively penalise them for having more than x games active at once?

[Thunder Glove]

I can't really blame NCSoft's decision that City was the one to go, when you stand back and look at it objectively. Heck, being honest about it, City of Heroes was a pretty niche game even here in North America. It did well, but I've heard more  about it since the shut down then three years prior to.

I can blame them.

(1) They were one signature away from selling the game to Paragon Studios, and instead decided not to sell and kill the IP again.
(2) Superheroes are becoming a big hot property all over the world (not that they were ever NOT at least somewhat a hot property), so killing one of only three big superhero games in favor of yet another generic Elves And Wizards game seems counter-productive.
(3) CoH was my favorite game of all time.  Not MMO, favorite game.  It had every feature I've ever loved from every other game (video game, tabletop RP, freeform IRC/MUX RP - even playing "pretend" as a little kid!) I've ever enjoyed, all combined into a satisfying whole.

It's 3 that really gets me.  It's like saying "Sure, your favorite restaurant that served all the food, from appetizer to desert, exactly the way you like it has been closed down even though it was successful, but don't worry! A new restaurant just opened up in its place, and the drinks in this new restaurant are EVEN BETTER than the old one, so you'll like it even more!  Of course, there's only two items on the menu, the actual meal is rancid, the waitstaff ignores you (until it's time for their tip), the cooks only come in for five minutes a week, people at adjoining tables will constantly throw things at you, the lights are all positioned to be directly in your eyes, you have to wear a clown nose and hat that they give you at the door, and the food costs five times as much.  But the drinks, man!  THINK OF THE DRINKS! (P.S., Eating a full meal of rancid food is mandatory in order to be allowed to have a drink every now and then)"

[FatherXmas]

The only thing that makes no sense to me with that is why does a new game coming out mean they have to get rid of an old one? Is there some obscure Korean law or something I don't know about that'd massively penalise them for having more than x games active at once?

No law, but the company was in the red for the first time in 8+ years in the 2nd quarter 2012.  The stock price had dropped 45% from their peak 7 months ago, that low being hit right after the first quarter numbers were released which showed the profits down again for the 4th straight quarter but at least still positive.  That usually means the company has to show they are doing something to turn things around.  That usually means trimming costs. 

You can't cut costs from the dev teams behind your leading money makers, that'll be dumb.  You can't cut costs from the studios that are on the verge of releasing their new games, that'll be dumb since they represent new sources of income.   Incentives taken, contracts signed and ground broken for your new building in the "New Korean Silicon Valley" district just south of Seoul, so you can't cut there.  So what was left?

Helloo.  /em Queen wave

Paragon knew a couple of months before the closure announcement that they were in trouble.  In hindsight I guessing by the time Paragon heard they were on the chopping block the die was already cast and it was going to be a nearly an impossible task to convince NCSOFT otherwise.  Before the announcement, according to the Gamasutra piece back in April, Paragon looked for other publishers but in the end "NCsoft wasn't looking to sell".  So they tried the management buyout idea, which was rejected in the 11th hour (I guess NCSOFT meant it when they said they weren't looking to sell).  The rest we know.

So it's not that there's a law but NCSOFT simply cut the asset that was big enough to be noticed but would impact the bottom line the least to show stockholders and analysts that they were doing something to turn profits around until the new titles started to bring in the bucks.

[General Idiot]

Except as far as I'm aware CoH was still making a profit, though Paragon as a whole may not have been since they were developing new stuff as well. But that's not a reason to kill them entirely before trying literally anything else. Cut one or both of the new games or scale them back until the studio's profitable again, but closing a game that was still producing a profit in the name of getting back in the black just seems stupid to me. Wouldn't losing CoH, however minor a loss it was overall, still just put them further into the red? Is there something I'm missing here?

[Thunder Glove]

No law, but the company was in the red for the first time in 8+ years in the 2nd quarter 2012.  The stock price had dropped 45% from their peak 7 months ago, that low being hit right after the first quarter numbers were released which showed the profits down again for the 4th straight quarter but at least still positive.  That usually means the company has to show they are doing something to turn things around.  That usually means trimming costs. 

You can't cut costs from the dev teams behind your leading money makers, that'll be dumb.  You can't cut costs from the studios that are on the verge of releasing their new games, that'll be dumb since they represent new sources of income.   Incentives taken, contracts signed and ground broken for your new building in the "New Korean Silicon Valley" district just south of Seoul, so you can't cut there.  So what was left?

Helloo.  /em Queen wave

Paragon knew a couple of months before the closure announcement that they were in trouble.  In hindsight I guessing by the time Paragon heard they were on the chopping block the die was already cast and it was going to be a nearly an impossible task to convince NCSOFT otherwise.  Before the announcement, according to the Gamasutra piece back in April, Paragon looked for other publishers but in the end "NCsoft wasn't looking to sell".  So they tried the management buyout idea, which was rejected in the 11th hour (I guess NCSOFT meant it when they said they weren't looking to sell).  The rest we know.

So it's not that there's a law but NCSOFT simply cut the asset that was big enough to be noticed but would impact the bottom line the least to show stockholders and analysts that they were doing something to turn profits around until the new titles started to bring in the bucks.

Except, again, they cut a PROFITABLE ENTERPRISE.  Sure, it was 2% of their total income, but saying to the shareholders "See?  Now our income has dropped to 98% of what it was before, which means we're somehow making more money!  98 is larger than 100, right?" is not a logical argument.

Neither is "And also, we're going to make even more money by refusing to let people give us money for this property we're not using anymore!"

Neither is "superhero films are really popular right now, so we plan to capitalize on that by closing our superhero game - #1 on the market! - and instead putting out yet another clone of World of Warcraft that can never hope to achieve even 0.1% of its popularity."

So logical arguments just don't work.

[Segev]

If they were one signature away from letting Paragon buy itself out, then the question has to arise: what changed to make them balk at that last signature?

It may be nobody's fault; some point may just have been unable to be reconciled to everybody's satisfaction. Tragic when it comes down to the last moment and somebody realizes they just can't sign off. I suspect everything was tried, at least for the Paragon self-buy-out, but something just wouldn't work. (I won't speculate as to outside buyer efforts.)

[Pinnacle Blue]

I can't really blame NCSoft's decision that City was the one to go, when you stand back and look at it objectively. Heck, being honest about it, City of Heroes was a pretty niche game even here in North America. It did well, but I've heard more  about it since the shut down then three years prior to.

Well, they could've given CoX a decent marketing budget.  Reinvesting a some of the profits it generated into TV ads would have done a lot more to increase subscriptions.  CoX definitely has its selling points-- off the top of my head, the game had something for everyone from casual players to harcore number-crunchers, exhaustive lore, endgame content, and the best goddamn costume creator to have ever existed.  Oh, and let's not forget a community that was, at its core, helpful and not inclined to parrot "LOLOLOL n00b u suck" at new players.  The content wasn't nearly as grindy as anything I've seen in Everquest.

It was the best superhero MMO on the market, but properly advertised?  It could have been one of the top MMOs in America.

[Segev]

Oh, definitely; there are mistakes that NCSoft made with CoH that we can learn from.

[JaguarX]

If they were one signature away from letting Paragon buy itself out, then the question has to arise: what changed to make them balk at that last signature?

It may be nobody's fault; some point may just have been unable to be reconciled to everybody's satisfaction. Tragic when it comes down to the last moment and somebody realizes they just can't sign off. I suspect everything was tried, at least for the Paragon self-buy-out, but something just wouldn't work. (I won't speculate as to outside buyer efforts.)

Probably is the case. Something came up that couldnt be worked out to both parties' satisfaction.

It happens more often than people think especially with government contracts.

[FatherXmas]

It didn't matter if the game was profitable.  It was theater.  They had to show stockholders and analysts they were doing something, anything, instead of waiting for the new product sales, which they've been saying will be coming soon for two years now, and the stock price was way down because nobody believed that anymore.  And what's better than closing some overseas studio and their game with tiny sales, a game that users in Korea and the rest of Asia wouldn't be impacted by.  Look everyone, see, we're cutting costs.  It doesn't have to be logical.  It just has to look management was doing something to turn things around.

[Rust]

If Paragon knew a few months before the announcement, that would explain the sheer dearth of new stuff we were getting right up to the shut down announcement. Bless Paragon Studios and their big hearts, but I half wonder if they ended up doing more harm then good. I know it's all to boost up the bottom line and maybe make NCSoft look elsewhere for the sacrificial lamb, but the stuff we were promised or didn't have the time to fully explore (Street Justice, Staff Fighting, Hydro Power, Nature Affinity...all powers I purchased and never got around to making toons for)...

It made the closure announcement all the more brazen and sudden. There was so much stuff on the horizon...

Like I said, Bless Paragon Studios and the great people there, but maybe the lack of new toys we never really got to play with would have lessened the sting a bit.

Either way, I don't hate NCSoft for the decision. I may be boycotting their products, but I understand what they did. I just don't like it.

[Pinnacle Blue]

To the last two posters:

How do you reconcile what you said with the fact that NCSoft is playing the most hateful, spiteful game of "keep-away" possible by sitting on the IP and refusing to sell it?

[Rust]

Business.

Troika Games was one of my favorite developers back in the day (Which isn't saying much since they only put out three games), with Arcanum being a great RPG in concept (It had issues storywise and gameplay wise, but the dynamic of choosing to go Technology or Magic with consequences for your choices was a welcome new element) and Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines being an all around great game (If Buggy, but the Unofficial Patch takes care of those elements).

I've desperately desperately wanted a new Arcanum title for over ten years now, but when Troika folded in 2005, the IP went to Activision - which has since done nothing with the property and I know at least one overture by Obsidian Entertainment to buy the IP has been rejected.

This behavior isn't exclusive to NCSoft.


As an aside, I've always felt Troika was a unfortunate studio in terms of the RPG scene. Their games had a lot of ambition and innovation...but just were so very buggy. Vampire wasn't helped by releasing on the same day as Half-Life 2. I can't speak of Temple of Elemental Evil as I never played it.

[Pinnacle Blue]

Business.

Troika Games was one of my favorite developers back in the day (Which isn't saying much since they only put out three games), with Arcanum being a great RPG in concept (It had issues storywise and gameplay wise, but the dynamic of choosing to go Technology or Magic with consequences for your choices was a welcome new element) and Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines being an all around great game (If Buggy, but the Unofficial Patch takes care of those elements).

I've desperately desperately wanted a new Arcanum title for over ten years now, but when Troika folded in 2005, the IP went to Activision - which has since done nothing with the property and I know at least one overture by Obsidian Entertainment to buy the IP has been rejected.

This behavior isn't exclusive to NCSoft.

I guess I was vague in my question.  Let me try this again:

Rust, how does not selling the IP "boost up the bottom line" of NCSoft?

Father Xmas, why does your theory necessitate NCSoft NOT selling the IP?

[Rust]

Rust, how does not selling the IP "boost up the bottom line" of NCSoft?

You misread my comment. I was talking about Paragon Studios releasing so much "stuff" up to the closure announcement as a way to boost their bottom line.

Father Xmas, why does your theory necessitate NCSoft NOT selling the IP?

Because Companies are viciously protective of Intellectual Properties, even ones not currently in use.

[Pinnacle Blue]

You misread my comment. I was talking about Paragon Studios releasing so much "stuff" up to the closure announcement as a way to boost their bottom line.

Mea culpa.  But this requires us to assume they (Paragon) knew the shutdown was coming, or that the ex-devs lied when they said they didn't.  I'm not comfortable with that.

Because Companies are viciously protective of Intellectual Properties, even ones not currently in use.

I kind of have to disagree with this as a blanket statement, considering the only reason NCSoft has the IP in the first place is because Cryptic sold it to them.

[JaguarX]

yeah some companies like to hold onto IPs and rights to old products, some dont so much. While some do a mixture of both. Selling some while holding onto the others. Probably why wont see Pontiac anytime soon unless GM wants to remake them but they are trying/tried to sell Hummer.

NCSOFT always had a hand in COX since the beginning. It was the publisher and cryptic was the developer. Thus when Cryptic wanted to go on to other projects aka dumping COH, NCSOFT had a choice right then and there. Shelf COX way back in 2005 or keep it around and try to make it grow. Cryptic already made their choice. So if NCSOFT didnt buy, this game would have been dead in 2005. But that led to an NCSOFT owned studio being made which eventually came to be named Paragon Studios. Now when the decision about the game this time around unfortunately this time the devs. didnt get much say in the matter and since they were already NCSOFT employees by definition. And then became the victim of realingement focus. And from the looks of it, they are doing just that and dont seem to have any focus on the American market much outside a few offerings that are doing well in Asia.

But what if it's not time for super hero games yet? The largest and probably the greatest of them one managing 180,000 players at peak in 2009 isnt exactly nothing to brag about in the MMO world overall. But suppose that the time just aint arrived yet? Maybe there will be a time in the future that it will be the day of the super hero mmo. A lot of fantasy MMOs are losing players, super hero lore in other media is rising, but unfortunately COX as it stood was getting long in the tooth and the graphics if brought out today as a new game, better yet, if a new game with COX graphics came out today, it hardly would be considered cutting edge and might be a turn off. But graphics can always be updated. But IP/trademarks/etc and any other name that it might be called that are sold, not so much, not for the seller. For the buyer yes it would be wonderful. For the seller, they have to start over when they otherwise didnt have to. And it wouldnt be a smart move especially when not hurting for money to give up something that is rare even if there isnt a current use for it yet.

[FatherXmas]

I guess I was vague in my question.  Let me try this again:

Rust, how does not selling the IP "boost up the bottom line" of NCSoft?

Father Xmas, why does your theory necessitate NCSoft NOT selling the IP?

It doesn't necessitate it.  It's just that game companies rarely sell off their IP unless they go out of business.  Companies sit on it until they run out of ideas and someone suggests they dust off that old IP in the back closet and give it a go.  And I'm talking about games that vanished and returned, not just sequeled immediately or simultaneously.  Games like XCOM, Syndicate, System Shock, Mechwarrior are examples of game IPs that sat idle for years before they tried to remake them and leverage their reputation.  They may license the IP to another studio to handle the remake but they don't sell the IP.

IPs get moved around through mergers and bankruptcies, rarely direct sale.  Yes Microsoft sold off the Asheron's Call IP back to Turbine in 2003 but Microsoft is schizophrenic where PC gaming is involved.  Now unless it's an XBox port forget it.  EVE's IP was sold back to CCP when Simon and Schuster decided the PC gaming/edutainment business wasn't a good match for them anymore and went back to just selling books. 

And for those who don't remember where to find it, the Gamasutra article.  That's where the following quote was found.

The sad saga of Paragon actually starts a couple of months before the doors were closed. Clayton, Bales, and Borden were told things were not looking good for the studio. NCsoft management was planning some changes and they were ordered to begin planning for the end of City of Heroes.

[CoyoteSeven]

Reading that Gamasutra article is way depressing. Basically we the players have no power whatsoever. The publishers have all the gold and so they make all the rules, and the only thing we can do is sit there and take it.

I was starting to think that maybe I'd be kind of interested in the new Neverwinter MMO, but that will probably get closed down too eventually. They all will. I'm not even going to bother looking at it.

[Razy]

We can only hope. Twinkies are back, Why not Coh?  :P