It looks as we are overseeing something important...

[FatherXmas]

The closure felt rushed and taking into consideration what you have said above, it really appears that the ground was burning under their feet. It's almost like they didn't anticipate the closure themselves. Why?

No idea.  Maybe by the time the figured out what kind of reorganization they wanted and get everyone at corporate to sign off on it they needed to act immediately.  Or they knew what they were planning but decided to not tell Paragon until the last minute.  Sort of the same way a boss would keep mum about layoffs until D-day.  You know "Sorry Chuck but we need to cut back on costs so you need to clean out your desk now with this nice guard looking over you shoulder and then go to HR to sign the paperwork.  And could you send Sally over."

Maybe it's just an example of disconnected Paragon was to the Seoul mothership.  Or maybe Paragon was just following Nick Fury's lead; "Until such time as the world ends, we will act as though it intends to spin on."  So yes they release a new powerset just days before the plug got pulled because if it didn't why upset the schedule?

And my locking the doors story refers to EA or Infogames or THQ or any number of companies that by up studios, milk them dry and then kill them off or drive off the talent that made those studios worth buying in the first place.  Sadly that's the way the games industry is.  Don't expect to work for any one studio for more than a few years because most studios are like soap bubbles or fireworks, there one minute, gone the next.  Studios live Valve are few and far between.

[FatherXmas]

... and if Paragon Studios itself was unprofitable, it seems it was by NCSoft's own doing.

Explain this comment please, I'm curious.

[Twisted Toon]

No idea.  Maybe by the time the figured out what kind of reorganization they wanted and get everyone at corporate to sign off on it they needed to act immediately.  Or they knew what they were planning but decided to not tell Paragon until the last minute.  Sort of the same way a boss would keep mum about layoffs until D-day.  You know "Sorry Chuck but we need to cut back on costs so you need to clean out your desk now with this nice guard looking over you shoulder and then go to HR to sign the paperwork.  And could you send Sally over."

I have seen better lay-offs numerous times. In fact, the best one I've seen, in my opinion, was from Northrop Grumman. They let everyone know that they will have to reduce the work force by a certain number of people and ask for volunteer retirement first. Then they go in and lay off employees after the volunteers...well, volunteer.

My understanding of this debacle is that Paragon Studios had no warning and was as blindsided by the closure as we were.

[Knight Light]

Putting aside NCSoft's ineptitude and total mismanagement of it's resources, it doesn't appear as though they ever had any intention of releasing the "secret project". The devs have stated the game was profitable but that Lincoln Davis jackass stated the studio was unprofitable; what made it unprofitable? The staff and development of the secret project? Was that personnel there before the start of the secret project, whisked away from their CoH duties or were they added after? Wouldn't a responsible company that knows what it's doing know how to budget itself because a game tends to not make any money when it's, y'know, not finished? They couldn't claim City of Heroes wasn't profitable, so they never did. The secret project was supposed to be a compromise for not supporting PS on CoH2 but it looks to me like it was used as an excuse to drive Paragon Studios into the red so they could claim on a technicality that it wasn't profitable.

If I'm missing something, please let me know, I've been a little in and out of the threads lately. Thanks to NCSoft, I've been trying to figure out if I still like video games. The short answer is no, I don't. That's another thing they owe me for.

[Colette]

"Only the part you quoted was said with humour and sarcasm, the rest I was serious."

Fair 'nuff, Knight Light, and while you have felt more pain and grief than I over CoH's closure, I'm not gonna try to invalidate your feelings. This has been a hard time for us all, or we wouldn't be here. I'm sorry it's been even harder for you.

It's not the closure of CoH that I resent. I'm mature enough to know that all good things must end. But the way they did it violates certain abstract principles that I hold dear. People are simply not to be treated that way.

"My understanding of this debacle is that Paragon Studios had no warning and was as blindsided by the closure as we were."

As I understand it, and I'm working on hear-say here, our devs were called into a meeting Friday morning. There they were informed, and security escorted them outside the building rather than allow them to return to their workstations or offices.

I could understand that sort of behavior toward a DoD contractor or some other Serious Business. A game company? Hogwash! Again, people are simply not to be treated that way.

[Knight Light]

Fair 'nuff, Knight Light, and while you have felt more pain and grief than I over CoH's closure, I'm not gonna try to invalidate your feelings. This has been a hard time for us all, or we wouldn't be here. I'm sorry it's been even harder for you.

Thank you. =*)

*ahem*

*cough*

/e FeebleAttemptToRegainComposure02

Well, I fully resent the closure. I respect their right to do what they want with their property but this was entirely the wrong time. At a bare minimum, CoH had 3 good years left. Issue 24 wasn't deeply revolutionary but I do feel it would have been a crowning achievement for Paragon Studios and the start of a new era. Imagine, an age of utility belts in Paragon City. It was an insult to deprive the devs of bringing their work to us.

Every last thing about this situation was wrong to the bone.

NCSoft is a gaming company; they are in the business of play and yet they declared loudly and blatantly, they are not willing to play with us.

[Lightslinger]

If NCsoft would have cared about the fans they would've started cutting costs, transition the game to maintenance mode while looking for a buyer. I have no doubt CoH would've been sold and still be operating in some capacity today if they'd done this. However, NCsoft believes, as they have shown multiple times (Tabula Rasa, Auto Assault, Dungeon Runners, Exteel) that they want to kill IPs forever when they close them. It will take a complete management change at NCsoft to get these games back.

So, I'll reiterate my soap-box since day 1 of the announcement closure; a CoH private server is the only chance of getting our game back. Given NCsoft's stance on how they treat IPs I'm completely OK with the legal dubiousness of a private server and will support one 100%.

[Surelle]

That was an amazing post, Tony!

Have you ever considered writing professionally?  Or maybe you already do, I don't know....

[JaguarX]

I have seen better lay-offs numerous times. In fact, the best one I've seen, in my opinion, was from Northrop Grumman. They let everyone know that they will have to reduce the work force by a certain number of people and ask for volunteer retirement first. Then they go in and lay off employees after the volunteers...well, volunteer.

My understanding of this debacle is that Paragon Studios had no warning and was as blindsided by the closure as we were.

Ah yes I heard of some companies doing this. Although I also seen many where there wasnt any volunteers. On the other hand I seen companies where they just mail out pink slips, some hand them out work still. I knew a few people who was let go over email due to cut backs. One company have this one guy  from HR that workers call him the "grim reaper", because when you see this guy it means someone is going home today for good.

Some places help the ex-worker find work, some even go as far as offer a position in a different location or part time "consulting". While other boot you out the door immediately.

A similar thing happened to a call center around here about 4 years. They fired everyone locked the doors the next day. Over 90 people laid off in one day.  This was so they could set up shop in India. No one got any warnings. The company released statement saying that the reason they released everyone without notice was that they  didnt want the employees to negativelty affect sales. Here in the ELP I dont think they have 90 day law and or no one follows it. Same day layoffs are pretty common around here out side gov. organizations which have their own policies.

[TonyV]

The devs have stated the game was profitable but that Lincoln Davis jackass...

To be fair, Lincoln Davis isn't a jackass.  He's a PR guy.  His job is to convey whatever goofy message the executives at NCsoft instruct him to.  Make sure your anger isn't misplaced; it should be directed to the executives that made the decision, not the messenger who's trying to spin what's going through their head.  He likely doesn't personally have access to the numbers he was talking about, so as far as he knows, what he said was true.

I will fault him for one thing, though.  As PR guy, he really needs to be pushing hard back up the chain how important this is to NCsoft's player community.  And to be fair again, maybe he is, I dunno.  I've heard that we do have allies within NCsoft, but they're being suppressed and overridden by other executive forces within the corporate offices of Korea.

[Ironwolf]

To me our job is quite simple:

We must make NCSoft understand that because of their actions towards the MMO community we have no interest in buying or paying for another game that they will cancel on a whim. They have poisoned the well and I have zero interest in playing another game at the moment. I am a 53 year old man who has gamed for over 30 years and they showed that the money and time I invested in their game was a waste of time.

A game making a profit was dumped and guess who was paying for that game? WE WERE.

I will not be paying them a single penny again and will warn all of my friends and fellow gamers not to play on their games. The reason that games go into maintenance mode is to retain the good will of the paying public who like to once in a while fire up that old dog and see if it will still hunt. They just kill the games and ignore the PLAYERS. Well we need to show them we not only will ignore them but actively seek to do them harm by not buying their products.

[Colette]

Y'all aren't wrong. The sort of no-warning deprivation-of-livelihood Jag describes are becoming more common. And uglier.

And the one nice thing I will say about the way NCSoft handled this is I understand they held job fairs for the Devs, and helped them find alternative work. That's setting a good example. There, I said something nice about NCSoft. Alert the media.

However, I disagree that our job is to make NCSoft understand -- anything. No offense, Ironwolf. It would be great if we could make MMO publishers understand there will be a backlash and severe PR penalties for shutting a game down brutally.

Nonetheless, I think our job now -- is to get back into Atlas Park, by "blue" methods like VV's effort to find a buyer, or "red" methods of cracking the codes and hosting a pirate server. (While I'm viscerally opposed to IP inrfringements, this is the exception that proves the rule.)

Yeah, let's continue to warn our fellow gamers away from NCSoft. I'm proud of the memes I created against them. But until they fold and their IPs are put up for auction, I suspect they're no longer relevant to our quest to return to Atlas Park.

[Knight Light]

To be fair, Lincoln Davis isn't a jackass.  He's a PR guy.  His job is to convey whatever goofy message the executives at NCsoft instruct him to.  Make sure your anger isn't misplaced; it should be directed to the executives that made the decision, not the messenger who's trying to spin what's going through their head.  He likely doesn't personally have access to the numbers he was talking about, so as far as he knows, what he said was true.

I will fault him for one thing, though.  As PR guy, he really needs to be pushing hard back up the chain how important this is to NCsoft's player community.  And to be fair again, maybe he is, I dunno.  I've heard that we do have allies within NCsoft, but they're being suppressed and overridden by other executive forces within the corporate offices of Korea.

Well, to be fair, none of this was fair.

I should be spending time with the woman I love, but I'm not.

However, I see your point. My anger isn't misdirected, it's simply undiluted and filtering out as gobs of pure hatred when it's not unending utter sadness. I'll do what I can to keep it in check.


So, fine, the Lincoln Davis puppet said the studio was unprofitable.

Better?

[FatherXmas]

I will fault him for one thing, though.  As PR guy, he really needs to be pushing hard back up the chain how important this is to NCsoft's player community.  And to be fair again, maybe he is, I dunno.  I've heard that we do have allies within NCsoft, but they're being suppressed and overridden by other executive forces within the corporate offices of Korea.

Tony you are confusing PR with customer relations.  A PR guy's only job is to convey the "official" line to the media and nothing more.  He is a face for the media, not a conduit for player concerns.

[Jonfan]

I think NCSoft will pay in some manner, although I dont think I was robbed degraded and abused. But that doesnt mean I like being abused robbed degraded. I payed a month, I got month worth access to the game. When it went into the closing process, I would have gotten a refund according to the announcement around Sept. time period. Money I spend on MMO is not money I miss. Just mere spare change laying around that probably would have been lost and or spent on some other form of entertainment. Do they deserve to pay? Not anymore nor less than any other corporation that makes a decision to kill a product. If every corporation that killed a product that I liked deserved to pay then that would mean that about 50% of corporations in existance deserve to pay. But pay what? I payed them money, I got what I payed for. They didnt rob me a month worth of game time. In the end from the looks of it, if I chose to partake, I would have gotten about three months or $45 worth of free VIP game time that I didnt pay for.

Here's the basic problem imo Jag. You are viewing this from only the bottom line standpoint. Well frankly, like Tony was saying, that won't do anymore. There is a growing sentiment in the gaming industry that at some point, so much creative effort is put into a game like CoH that it ceases to be 'just a game' and becomes art. Moreover, the effect it has on the hundreds of thousands of people who play becomes deeply seated in the consciousness, just like any other art does. Does great music affect you? You bet it does and much more-so than most people realize.

Like the professor at Stamford pointed out:

"When a game shuts down, it can be an emotional blow to players. Dr. Henry Lowood, Curator of History of Science and Technology Collections for Stanford University Libraries, says, "When you have memories, a sense of space, you always have a sense of having been somewhere. You end up with associations with that world. Even though you know they're not real, the associations are real. When those are disrupted—especially in a way that would be catastrophic, when it goes dark—it's like a tidal wave or an earthquake wiping out a town. It's not exactly the same, but emotionally and in terms of memories, it's very similar."

No Corporation, Government, Religious organization or any other authoritative body has the right to destroy art, not now, not ever. Book burning is always wrong.

[JaguarX]

Here's the basic problem imo Jag. You are viewing this from only the bottom line standpoint. Well frankly, like Tony was saying, that won't do anymore. There is a growing sentiment in the gaming industry that at some point, so much creative effort is put into a game like CoH that it ceases to be 'just a game' and becomes art. Moreover, the effect it has on the hundreds of thousands of people who play becomes deeply seated in the consciousness, just like any other art does. Does great music affect you? You bet it does and much more-so than most people realize.

Like the professor at Stamford pointed out:

"When a game shuts down, it can be an emotional blow to players. Dr. Henry Lowood, Curator of History of Science and Technology Collections for Stanford University Libraries, says, "When you have memories, a sense of space, you always have a sense of having been somewhere. You end up with associations with that world. Even though you know they're not real, the associations are real. When those are disrupted—especially in a way that would be catastrophic, when it goes dark—it's like a tidal wave or an earthquake wiping out a town. It's not exactly the same, but emotionally and in terms of memories, it's very similar."

No Corporation, Government, Religious organization or any other authoritative body has the right to destroy art, not now, not ever. Book burning is always wrong.

Yep I'm well familiar with that quote and understand how it can affect some people, but of course not everyoen is affected the same and those that are not affected the same doesnt mean automatically they enjoy abuse, or being robbed, or have no feelings.

As with music. Some people play music to fit their mood or to get into that mood. Music dotn have that affect on me. But I know many people where when they are sad, they play sad music, when they are happy or want to be happy, they play cheerful music, and some go as far that they play music that fits their personality and or how they view the world. Music do not affect me as so. It's music and if it has agood beat, I play it and thus within an hour it is not unusual for me to play Nirvana talking about suicide to a gospel song by Kirk Franklin, to Marylyn Manson Dope show, to Paula Adul Straight up, to Michael Jackson thriller, to Johnny Cash Tennesse Stud to Slayer South of Heaven and end it with The Game-Money. It's just happen to be music that I find pleasing to the ear.

While many feel, and rightfully so, that is seemed that offing COX felt like "catastrophic, when it goes dark—it's like a tidal wave or an earthquake wiping out a town. It's not exactly the same, but emotionally and in terms of memories, it's very similar", those wasnt the feelings for me but I understand those that do. I'm sure there is some stuff that I view is very catestrophic, like Mercedes design for the S-Class of 2007-current is that type of feeling but to others, it's just a car. How am I supposed to buy a new MBZ that is ugly as I dont know what. I been buying them for years and now what, I have Jaguar and BMW left for a decent ride with nice designs but still, they are not Mercedes. Just as there is CO and DCUO, but it's not COX.

[Taceus Jiwede]

It's not the closure of CoH that I resent. I'm mature enough to know that all good things must end. But the way they did it violates certain abstract principles that I hold dear. People are simply not to be treated that way.

Colette that is the nail on the head.  Couldn't of put it better my self, its the lack of empathy and the complete selfishness that makes me angry, the game wasn't mine it was NCSofts they could do what they please with their game, but not with their fans.  As a musician I wouldn't betray the fans I do have and hope to have in the future, I would never just disappear or stop making music without a long and detailed reason why and I wouldn't do it without one final goodbye Album (or EP with the way music is these days).  NCSoft is not better then their fans like they think.  Sure it was their game but we loved/played/and payed for it and they could of at least given us an end of the world good bye with a well thought out apology and a consideration to sell it.

I guess the point is, people before money.  Because without the people they wouldn't have the money.  I tell you what every show I have ever played, ended with me telling the audience to give them self a hand because in all reality without them I am just some dude on the stage with a guitar.

[JaguarX]

Colette that is the nail on the head.  Couldn't of put it better my self, its the lack of empathy and the complete selfishness that makes me angry, the game wasn't mine it was NCSofts they could do what they please with their game, but not with their fans.  As a musician I wouldn't betray the fans I do have and hope to have in the future, I would never just disappear or stop making music without a long and detailed reason why and I wouldn't do it without one final goodbye Album (or EP with the way music is these days).  NCSoft is not better then their fans like they think.  Sure it was their game but we loved/played/and payed for it and they could of at least given us an end of the world good bye with a well thought out apology and a consideration to sell it.

I guess the point is, people before money.  Because without the people they wouldn't have the money.  I tell you what every show I have ever played, ended with me telling the audience to give them self a hand because in all reality without them I am just some dude on the stage with a guitar.

Excellent point.

You say that  "As a musician I wouldn't betray the fans I do have and hope to have in the future, I would never just disappear or stop making music without a long and detailed reason why and I wouldn't do it without one final goodbye Album" Yet, suppose, Im just saying suppose, NCSoft do not consider or even want nor care to have ex-COXers as fans anymore or in the future?

[Jonfan]

As with music. Some people play music to fit their mood or to get into that mood. Music dotn have that affect on me.

I don't want to beat this horse anymore; it's completely off topic. But I will say that, with respect, I think you are one of those people who don't realize just how much music can affect us.

You probably weren't around back then but in my lifetime I've seen music help stop an unjust war, impeach a corrupted President, gain civil rights for minorities and so much more. The very culture that surrounds you is affected by music and all other art forms. Hell music has even been used a tool of propaganda and brain-washing which I find hideous in every respect. Don't fool yourself, there's a lot more depth here than you realize.

[Colette]

Thank you, Taceus.

I'm gonna throw Jonfan some support. Just as a solid object may "seed" the precipitation of crystals in a solution, or rain from a cloud, so may music, or any work of art, trigger a political or cultural change. Jag's right that individual effects vary.

I am hoping CoH, or rather the brutal manner of CoH's closing, may trigger something of the sort in the gaming industry. The story is ongoing.