It looks as we are overseeing something important...

[JaguarX]

Kickstart REQUIRES that you have a business plan in place before you are allowed to file.  Neither Plan Z project is at that point yet.  Kickstart also REQUIRES that you refund the money if your goals are not met, which basically means you can't spend any of that Kickstart money unless you are damn sure you are going to be able to make those goals.

Sounds like a good idea, Kickstarter or not. But yeah, that road is not ready to pave it seems yet for the Plan Z projects.

Unless the Plan Z is planning on being just some small time free app., then eventually a buisness plan will have to be set anyways. (again, Kickstarter or not.) And with any type of fund collection, unless it's specifically stated that even if the plan wont work, all money invested will be lost forever, then someone that gives money will expect their money back if things go belly up, Kickstarter or not. Otherwise it might as well been a donation....hmmmmm...donation eh?

"Nothing in this world is free. There is always a bill that someone somewhere has to pay." Time, money, knowledge, health, limbs, life etc.

[Segev]

Technically, Kickstarter is a donation. That they use PBS-style "rewards" at certain "donation levels" - rewards that sometimes include a copy of the product - doesn't change that there is no legal STAKE in the product that the donors get. It differentiates crowd funding from venture capitalism because it relies on people's willingness to spend money for something they want to be developed, rather than investing money they plan to recoup.

[JaguarX]

Technically, Kickstarter is a donation. That they use PBS-style "rewards" at certain "donation levels" - rewards that sometimes include a copy of the product - doesn't change that there is no legal STAKE in the product that the donors get. It differentiates crowd funding from venture capitalism because it relies on people's willingness to spend money for something they want to be developed, rather than investing money they plan to recoup.

Yes by definition.


But in the context I was using, donation is money I give to someone which use of that money for stated purpose is ideal, I have no control or expectations of it as the money is no longer mine. I.e- transfer of ownership of the money with no expectation of delivery of a product or gains. Like the difference between loaning/investing someone money, with expectation of being paid back either with money and or product and donating, not expecting pay back.

In short-used as if loaned to family member who never pay back the loans with no wish to bring them to court to recoup the lost cash. It's basically money donated to their pockets with no chance of return.

[Golden Girl]

These projects are not on kickstarter... where you get the money from?

Private finance.

[TonyV]

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I believe that most work being done on both projects so far is all volunteer effort.  The bulk of the up-front cost of game development is labor.  Having a staff of a few dozen developers and artists is really expensive.  One thing about the City of Heroes community, though, is that there are a lot of really talented, professional people who are willing to donate their time, energy, and brainpower into making a spiritual successor to the game a reality.

I do know that The Phoenix Project is hoping to actually make money on the game after it launches, and has actually taken steps to form a corporation in anticipation of not being locked out of opportunities that require a so-called "real" business to deal with.  It's my honest hope that one or more of these projects actually results in the formation of a brand new development studio with a heavy emphasis on community.

Keep in mind that I'm speaking for myself here, not on behalf of any Plan Z project or any official stance of the Titan Network...

...but I feel like our community--including Paragon Studios itself--got royally f*cked by NCsoft.  But to be fair, I feel like gamers have been getting f*cked by most large game publishers for years now.  Draconian DRM that is useless against piracy but that spies on and prevents legitimate users from playing, using downloadable content to prevent a second-hand game market, churning out substandard products and doing stuff like paying for positive reviews or issuing threats for negative reviews, nickle-and-diming people with microtranscations... the list goes on and on.  Every time a company pushes the envelope, there's sound and fury, but it dies down and in another few months, some company pushes the envelope even further.

I for one am sick of it.  I love gaming with a passion, but the regressive stuff that's been going on lately turns my stomach.  People have asked me which game I'm moving on to.  The honest answer is none, at least not yet.  To be blunt, NCsoft has poisoned the well for me.  While I always knew that at any given time, NCsoft could pull the plug and shut the whole thing down, practically speaking, I never actually thought they would do it as long as the game was successful.  The fact that they did has made me VERY skittish about getting involved in another game as deep and engrossing--read: that takes as much time, effort, and money--as a full-blown MMORPG does.  As I indicated above, once one studio pushes that envelope and other studios see that it's possible, who's to say that they won't do it too?

That's also a reason why I personally (again, not an official stance of the Titan Network) delight at the negative publicity that the Boycott NCsoft and part of the SaveCoH movements are generating.  I want to see NCsoft punished for doing what they did.  Not so much out of anger, but because the next time some idiot manager gets it in their head that they can kill off a game and kick its community to the side, I want SOMEBODY in the meeting to raise their hand and say, "Wait a minute, remember what happened when NCsoft killed off City of Heroes?"

There are some who argue that the era of MMORPGs is dead and gone.  I don't subscribe to that view.  I know that I'd LOVE to play a deep and engrossing game in a vast world full of adventure and opportunity.  I've been playing Dungeons & Dragons since I was a teenager in the early 80s.  In college it was a staple of weekend entertainment.  Now that I'm all grow'd up and most of my social circle are people with young to teenage kids, no one has the time or will to play any more, and the Internet is the perfect place to keep the tradition alive.

But the thing is, if you play the pencil-and-paper version of Dungeon & Dragons, or something like Magic: The Gathering, and if the company were to go out of business tomorrow or otherwise decide that that game is no longer in their future plans, you still have the game.  You can still get together with friends and play.  That is obviously not true of an MMORPG like City of Heroes.

So yeah, I'm kind of off of MMORPGs for now.  Not because I'm tired of the genre, I'm not.  Not because there aren't any games out there that I like, there are.  But because I simply can't invest what I did into City of Heroes into another game just to have it pulled out from under me, profit and community be damned.

...Which leads me to the Plan Z projects.  I've probably been a bit of a thorn in the side of The Phoenix Project leaders, and I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this to Golden Girl at some point, but one thing I've consistently mentioned now and then is that the community needs to have an ownership stake in these projects.  There needs to be assurances that even if they give up on the game, it won't just go kaput and everyone's time, money, and creative energy simply disappears.

If one or more of these projects ends up becoming a full-fledged independent game development studio, I want the top levels of management of that studio to do their dead level best to swing the pendulum of large publishers screwing over customers back towards showing people what a game publisher ought to be.  Because I honestly believe that the main thing wrong with the MMORPG market right now isn't a lack of desire to play the games, it's that people need a company with a decent product that they feel actually looks out for them and doesn't diligently work to f*ck them for their money and move on to something else.

I know this post is kind of out of the blue, but it's definitely something that's been boiling up since August 31.  I've got more thoughts on the matter, but it is 2:30am here and I have to work tomorrow, so they'll have to wait.  :)  And lest anyone misunderstands me, I still haven't given up on the prospect of NCsoft releasing the City of Heroes IP for the game to be resurrected at some point.  There are definitely some great efforts being undertaken by Victoria Victrix, Quinch, and others to pursue that goal, and I am 100% on board with them.  But given how NCsoft has been so far, I'm certainly not keeping all of my eggs in that one basket, either.  I'm hoping that some day, we'll have an independent company and can write Taek-Jin Kim a letter saying, "You see?  This is what NCsoft could have been, if you had just listened to us.  Oh and by the way, hey industry, take note: we're here, and you're going to have to adapt to the new way of doing things if you want to stay competitive."

[Memorandum]

I'm hoping that some day, we'll have an independent company and can write Taek-Jin Kim a letter saying, "You see?  This is what NCsoft could have been, if you had just listened to us.  Oh and by the way, hey industry, take note: we're here, and you're going to have to adapt to the new way of doing things if you want to stay competitive."

I'll like that.  ;D And would go a bit further: If Plan Z will show up with a working game, it will be a success either way - as the game is designed by gamers themself. "You see NCSoft, that's happening if you don't listen and care about your customers: We do not need you anymore."  ;)

[downix]

Hear hear Tony!

[agentq]

Tony I agree, and frankly this really isn't a game studio centric issue. This is a Corporation vs people issue. Corporations are designed to put profits first. We need to find a way to make it clear, the community, the customers, and the people are first.

If your business model supports the people who are your customers, it increases the likely hood of having a high customer retention rate, it also increases the likely hood of you having good PR, which in turn translates into respectable sales, which translates into a nice stock profile.

Corporations including game studios need to realize that strip mining your customer base, like any resource means eventually you run out of resources.

[Nebularian]

But the thing is, if you play the pencil-and-paper version of Dungeon & Dragons, or something like Magic: The Gathering, and if the company were to go out of business tomorrow or otherwise decide that that game is no longer in their future plans, you still have the game.  You can still get together with friends and play.  That is obviously not true of an MMORPG like City of Heroes.

This is a mantra I've been chanting for years....And one reason I resisted getting into online-only games for so long.

Earlier on, people from both Plan Z's claimed that at least some small amount of offline playing ability would be considered....don't know if that is still the case....I started back to school (at my advanced age...sheeesh) and have not had the time to keep up.

But, because of what NCSoft did, I refuse to pay for ANY other game that does not have some offline content. The return of COH might cause me to reconsider that...but I am not giving any money at all for any game that does not have at least a minimal offline playing ability.

[Colette]

Right behind you, Tony.

"I know this post is kind of out of the blue, but it's definitely something that's been boiling up since August 31."

Well, its pretty much what I've been saying since then, but then I'm at more liberty to. Feel better?

I have absolutely no objection to a game provider making money. I disapprove of get-rich-quick-and-easy schemes like selling "enhancements" for real money, but I'm perfectly pleased to purchase real, we-lavished-time-and-work-on-this content.

I also anticipated that some day, after a period of stagnation, CoH would run its course and cease operations. I expected the owners to be thoughtful and above-board about this. Instead they foisted a lot of new content on us, snapped up our money, and ran for the door.

They have indeed "poisoned the well" for me, and I doubt I will ever invest in a game that requires an online connection to play ever again. It's simply not worth the investment. I spent an order of magnitude more upon CoH than any other game in my selective little collection, and now it's the only one I can't play.

Yes, NCSoft must pay. Anyone who says otherwise is a... I don't have a polite way to express this metaphor... someone who likes being degraded, abused and robbed. NCSoft is slowly hemorrhaging money. Good.

One of our plans will, I've no doubt, come to fruition. For us non-programmers, it's a matter of patience. When they do, we'll have control, and no one will be able to wrest it from us. And we will have indeed accomplished "something important," and even salutary for the entire gaming industry.

Laugh with me -- mwuhahahaha!

[JaguarX]

...
Yes, NCSoft must pay. Anyone who says otherwise is a... I don't have a polite way to express this metaphor... someone who likes being degraded, abused and robbed. NCSoft is slowly hemorrhaging money. Good.

...

I think NCSoft will pay in some manner, although I dont think I was robbed degraded and abused. But that doesnt mean I like being abused robbed degraded. I payed a month, I got month worth access to the game. When it went into the closing process, I would have gotten a refund according to the announcement around Sept. time period. Money I spend on MMO is not money I miss. Just mere spare change laying around that probably would have been lost and or spent on some other form of entertainment. Do they deserve to pay? Not anymore nor less than any other corporation that makes a decision to kill a product. If every corporation that killed a product that I liked deserved to pay then that would mean that about 50% of corporations in existance deserve to pay. But pay what? I payed them money, I got what I payed for. They didnt rob me a month worth of game time. In the end from the looks of it, if I chose to partake, I would have gotten about three months or $45 worth of free VIP game time that I didnt pay for.

[Knight Light]

I think NCSoft will pay in some manner, although I dont think I was robbed degraded and abused. But that doesnt mean I like being abused robbed degraded. I payed a month, I got month worth access to the game. When it went into the closing process, I would have gotten a refund according to the announcement around Sept. time period. Money I spend on MMO is not money I miss. Just mere spare change laying around that probably would have been lost and or spent on some other form of entertainment. Do they deserve to pay? Not anymore nor less than any other corporation that makes a decision to kill a product. If every corporation that killed a product that I liked deserved to pay then that would mean that about 50% of corporations in existance deserve to pay. But pay what? I payed them money, I got what I payed for. They didnt rob me a month worth of game time. In the end from the looks of it, if I chose to partake, I would have gotten about three months or $45 worth of free VIP game time that I didnt pay for.

oooooooh, listen you, how dare you use logic and sense in this matter. Can't you see we're trying to hate irrationally? =oP

I don't want to go into things but NCSoft did rob me. NCSoft robbed me of the only life I have wanted for two years now and seeing as how I didn't really want life prior to that, it comes as a terrible blow. I never really expected NCSoft to consider my personal life in their business decisions but they went ahead and made one and in the process they f*ed me royally. I do not wish to go into details but suffice it to say that NCSoft took something that's more valuable to me than all the money in the world and I will take every opportunity available to make NCSoft bleed for something that they can never ever pay back. Three months of free VIP isn't worth diddly squat next to that. All my life, I have hated true violence and always gone the peaceful route. I hate who NCSoft has made me into. I now know in my heart that if I was locked in a room with NCSoft's executives, not only do I know that I would not be able to control myself; I know that I wouldn't even try.

I hate that.

[Colette]

"I paid them money, I got what I paid for."

"...listen you, how dare you use logic and sense in this matter. Can't you see we're trying to hate irrationally?"

Sorry Jaguar, we're gonna hafta agree to disagree on this one. Knight Light, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, what with all the hyperbole on these boards. If you are, you're engaging in ad hominem and Straw Man fallacy, and it is you who have transgressed against logic.

I feel that NCSoft committed grave discourtesies against us, the players, and in my very first post here, enumerated "how to shut down an MMO" without angering and alienating one's paying customers. It wasn't PR subtleties or arcane cultural sensitivities either, it was common sense stuff about taking others' feelings into consideration, not leaving them feeling ripped off or throwing people away like used tissue once you're done with 'em.

So y'see, I can't help but interpret your positions as "NCSoft owes nothing, not even courtesy and consideration, to anybody except its stockholders." Well, looking at the hard, quantifiable evidence of NCSoft's stock performance since their announcement, their stockholders are angry at them too.

[FatherXmas]

But Colette it wasn't a case of closing an MMO as it was shuttering a studio that they considered underperforming (at least according to NCsoft).  CoH was the baby in the bathwater.  Collateral damage.  And it's likely that for reporting reasons, such as getting the studio and game off the books by the end 2012, before the reorg in the west, that they needed them to close immediately.

Sadly game studios have these kinds of sudden closures all the time.  One day you're open, next day there's a guard at the door and your stuff has been carelessly stuffed into boxes that are way to small stacked haphazardly in the lobby (word of advice, don't bring in your valuable mint in package Major Matt Mason to display in your office).

NCsoft didn't just fire the devs at Paragon, they "fired" all of us.  Sure they graciously kept the game open for another 3 months (not sure how much of that was required by law) but in the end we were all "let go".  And for some reason reducing the staffing at Paragon down to "Freem 15" levels just to support the game was not an option that they were willing to consider.  Getting I24 stable and released wasn't an option they were willing to consider.  Preparing an end of world event wasn't an option they were willing to consider.  They needed the studio closed immediately so all expenses associated with it are off the books by Dec 30 and tied up in a neat bow.

Also don't forget that about a week after shutting down the servers there were layoffs at NC Interactive, which according to the org chart NCsoft published is who Paragon was under, and then a week or so after that the announcement about reorganization of their entire western assets.  Day to day operations for Aion and Lineage 2 in Europe had already been taken over by 3rd parties with NCsoft taking royalties early in 2012.  Their only games that are out now in Europe, that are still directly run by NCsoft, are the two Guild Wars games.  However they are looking to keep control of both Blade & Soul and Wildstar when they come out, everywhere.

It sucks being laid off from your preferred choice of entertainment but that's what NCsoft did to us.

Edit: yet, let ... tomato, potato  ???

[JaguarX]

So y'see, I can't help but interpret your positions as "NCSoft owes nothing, not even courtesy and consideration, to anybody except its stockholders." Well, looking at the hard, quantifiable evidence of NCSoft's stock performance since their announcement, their stockholders are angry at them too.

Ah here lies the problem. It seems you are assuming I'm saying, NCSoft owes nothing to no one but their shareholders. See the point you misses is that I'm not talking about whether or not NCSoft owes anyone or someone or no one. I'm saying they do not owe me. I'm only speaking for myself and not anyone else. For others, NCSoft owes trhem dearly, as Knight said, as they destroyed something that rises beyond money. For me, it was a mere subscription that I paid for and I felt, you forgot the multiple "I"s in my previous statements, meaning I'm only talkign with regards only to myself, as they gave me what I paid for. Other people will experience different which is suppose to happen as if Knight didnt even allude to it, I wouldnt have known COX had that deep of a meaning to it. I could tell just by his statement in his reply to me, it meant a lot that money could not buy and something a price cannot be placed on. But even then I was just replying to mostly the statement that for the opposite end of the spectrum consisted of people that liked to be robbed abused and degraded.  There might be some out there that felt the same as me, but I cant say, I dont know. I only know how I feel in regards to whether or not I was robbed, abused, and degraded, which in a nutshell was saying that is not the case for me, and only speaking for me.

There is really nothign to disagree about. You feel how you feel and I feel how I feel. As I mentioned, I gave not a slightest bit or rather gave no intentional indication I was speaking for any amount of the population outside myself. If that is what you gathered out of my statements when I for example said "I paid them money, I got what I paid for.", then I apologize for the confusion. Please let me know how I can make it clearer in the future that I only speak for myself and how I feel and view it?

Not to mention it's slightly annoying words being put into my mouth. No where did I say that "NCSoft owes nothing, not even courtesy and consideration, to anybody except its stockholders." and not sure how you gathered that out of my statements from saying that I feel that NCSoft owes ME nothing. Unless you consider me a spokes person for everyone else, which although flattering you put me that high up as a respesentative for numerous people, that is not the case. It's only me. But if you really want my opinion about whether or not I think NCSoft owes consideration and courtesy to people and how much, then that is probably best for another topic or PM.

[Colette]

Jag, I said you and I would need to agree-to-disagree. I've courteously explained my position, and why we disagree. I have explained my understanding of your position with absolutely no "words being put into your mouth." Let it go. People are allowed to disagree.

Father Xmas, I don't really have a lot of experience with so-called corporate behavior. If you have greater experience, I defer to it.

But I believe... NCSoft is made up of people, and so was Paragon, and so was the playerbase. I recognise when a person or group of people have concern and consideration and respect for other parties, and when they are dismissive, uncaring and utterly self-absorbed.

Your argument boils down to, "it was only business." Simply saying "it's business"as if that incantation somehow magically grants a person or group carte blanche to act however they choose... well, that doesn't hold water with me. It's not how I would run a business, it's not how I expect to be treated as a customer.

So once again, I refer back to my original post, "How to Shut Down an MMO." For example, releasing a major product (in this case, "Nature Mastery") a mere three days before announcing cancellation without notice, in my opinion, constitutes a grievous example of bad faith, violating the spirit if not the letter of our contract with them. As I wrote above, they "snapped up our money and ran for the door." That is not business, that is bad business.

"Sadly game studios have these kinds of sudden closures all the time.  One day you're open, next day there's a guard at the door and your stuff has been carelessly stuffed into boxes that are way to small stacked haphazardly in the lobby...."

That is another example of many discourtesies suffered by those foolish enough to do business with NCSoft, the sum of which paint a very, very ugly picture of blind avarice and ruthlessness. As he posted above, Tony hopes to see NCSoft punished for such collective arrogance, as a salutory example to others. I concur. You are free to disagree.

[JaguarX]

Jag, I said you and I would need to agree-to-disagree. I've courteously explained my position, and why we disagree. I have explained my understanding of your position with absolutely no "words being put into your mouth." Let it go. People are allowed to disagree.

And I explained that your understanding of what I was saying is not what I was saying. Your own words

"So y'see, I can't help but interpret your positions as "NCSoft owes nothing, not even courtesy and consideration, to anybody except its stockholders." Well, looking at the hard, quantifiable evidence of NCSoft's stock performance since their announcement, their stockholders are angry at them too."

And I replied that is not my position at all bascially. Of course we can agree to disagree but insinuating that I'm speaking for more than myself and stating my position as the quote of yours above is wrong and not what I'm doing at all. That is all I was saying in my reply to you.

If you wanted it be let go you shouldnt have replied to me in the first place and just let it go yourself. Instead you invented a reason and basically assigned it to what I was saying. I'm not saying you cant disagree. I'm just saying that quote as you assigned as my postion is not my position, as one I did not say that was position. Two, I speak for no one but myself. Yes, you did put words in my mouth with that quote alone there. You speak of letting it go and saying people are allowed to disagree yet just because you disagree with how I feel NCSoft treated me, which I not sure how you can disagree with how I felt NCSoft treated me since it is my feelings afterall and I wasnt talking about how ncsoft treated anyone else, just me, you deduced it to mean my position means "I think owes nothing, not even courtesy and consideration, to anybody except its stockholders". How about taking your own advice and let people have their own interpretation of how they feel about NCSoft's action as it pertains to themselves. You feel ripped off? Fine. I dont. And that is all I was saying. I wasnt disagreeing agreeing or anythign of the likes with anyones. Just merely saying I keyword you keep missing I felt I got my money worth.

[Little Green Frog]

NCsoft didn't just fire the devs at Paragon, they "fired" all of us.  Sure they graciously kept the game open for another 3 months (not sure how much of that was required by law) but in the end we were all "yet go".  And for some reason reducing the staffing at Paragon down to "Freem 15" levels just to support the game was not an option that they were willing to consider.  Getting I24 stable and released wasn't an option they were willing to consider.  Preparing an end of world event wasn't an option they were willing to consider.  They needed the studio closed immediately so all expenses associated with it are off the books by Dec 30 and tied up in a neat bow.

The closure felt rushed and taking into consideration what you have said above, it really appears that the ground was burning under their feet. It's almost like they didn't anticipate the closure themselves. Why?

[DarkCurrent]

This is the million dollar question.  They could have handled this a lot better and actually showed they cared about their customers.  Instead they fired all the bar tenders, flipped the 'Closed' sign on the door, and shouted 'last call'.

[Knight Light]

Knight Light, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, what with all the hyperbole on these boards. If you are, you're engaging in ad hominem and Straw Man fallacy, and it is you who have transgressed against logic.

Only the part you quoted was said with humour and sarcasm, the rest I was serious.

I'm not sure where the transgression takes place, I'm not entirely against NCSoft's position, CoH is their property; they can do what they want with it ultimately. However, their actions have caused me an immeasurable degree of pain and I intend to share it with them at first opportunity. Mayhaps, a necklace of executive teeth will be made, who knows really. The data at hand suggests to me that none of this had to happen; it seems as though CoH was profitable enough for a company of reasonable intelligence to keep open and if Paragon Studios itself was unprofitable, it seems it was by NCSoft's own doing.

Speaking humorously and not with any actual intention; I say kill 'em, kill 'em good.