Titan Network

Hey all, there's been a bit of confusion--and drama--around "Plan Z", a new Heroes and Villains web site, Titan's involvement, and other such topics.  I wanted to make a post on what's going on, who's doing what, and what's "official" and what's just moral support.

The term "Plan Z" was, as far as I can tell, first used by Golden Girl within a couple of days of the announced shutdown.  Within a short time after that, "Plan Z" was kind of a generic name given to the idea of developing an entirely new "spiritual successor" to City of Heroes--that is, a game that contains the elements of what made City of Heroes so fun and popular, but without the intellectual property (characters, names, artwork, etc.) that would be copyright infringement on NCsoft's property.  At the time, Golden Girl wanted to get started, but with multiple efforts underway to save the existing City of Heroes franchise, she tempered her involvement in such a project to not interfere with those efforts.

Over the course of the next couple of months, it became obvious that NCsoft was not interested right now in releasing the City of Heroes IP, so Plan Z because more and more of a likely fallback contingency plan for keeping the spirit of our community alive in the form of another game.  In the meantime, several other people got involved, and the project started "getting legs", so to speak.

Eventually, though, separate visions of what a successor should be and how it should be developed started emerging.  I won't lie, there was some gnashing of teeth and some arguing, but it's important to realize that although the visions might be different, the goals are the same, that we're still all on the same team here, that we're still all part of the same community.  I don't want anyone coming away from this thinking that the community is splitting up or anything; we're not.

So after some talking and hashing of some stuff out, the end result is that everyone has agreed that "Plan Z" refers to kind of an umbrella idea that a new spiritual successor to City of Heroes will be developed.  It is not in and of itself a specific project.  When you see a reference to "Plan Z: Heroes and Villains" or "Plan Z: The Phoenix Project," those are two separate development efforts, tied together by the fact that both were inspired and seek to recreate the spirit of City of Heroes.  They share an idea, and there might be some resources that pop back and forth between both.

Where does the Titan Network fit into all of this?  To start, we're not leading either project.  Not that we don't think that either one is worthwhile, they're both very cool.  But to be honest, we've been focused on other things, especially around the game shutdown.  Also, we're not game designers, and a project of this scope requires more people with a bigger talent variety than we currently have dedicated to our utilities and web sites.  We are providing some space for forums related to the projects, and you might see some of our crew becoming more involved in either or both of these projects.

We're not trying to distance or disassociate ourselves with either project, but I want to make sure that credit lands where credit is due.  Over the years, to be honest, I've felt a little guilty when people say, for example, "Thanks Tony for all of the hard work you put in on the wiki!"  While I implicitly understand that they're complimenting our whole crew, it still makes me feel a little weird when I feel like people might have the impression that I single-handedly created all of the articles and run the software and everything.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  And if these projects are successes and people start doling out credit to me or the Titan Network for the blood, sweat, and tears of other development teams, that would be grossly unfair.

So who do we officially endorse?  Both!  The way I see it, there is plenty of room for two games.  (Or even more, if another team wants to jump in and have at it!)  It's not like no one ever fought in the City of Heroes community over what that game should be, or yelled at the devs over how they were taking the game in a wrong direction.  Lest we look back with rose-colored glasses, remember that even City of Heroes itself wasn't everything to everyone, and now we have a chance for people to put their development mettle to the test.  With multiple projects, when all is said and done, people may very well be able to decide which designer's vision they like best and have a game more custom-tailored to what they find fun.

I know there's a tendency when people have multiple competing visions of how something should be done to gather around and start yelling, "Fight!  Fight!"  Please don't; there are probably a few frayed nerves in the mix, but any competition is pretty friendly and in the spirit of making the best games for the best community that can be made.  I want people to openly and publicly support these projects--either or both--not choosing sides and trying to undermine them.  That will only serve to delight the unicorns who thinks that the idea itself is a bad one, and they are the ones who should be mocked and yelled at.
:)

Edit: Corrected typo

I can understand the neutral-oriented viewpoint, Tony, and respect it.  However, I would like to make a few points.

One reason why you're directly associated with the Phoenix Project is because he Phoenix Project is primarily hosted and discussed here, on Titan Network, whereas the Heroes and Villains Project isn't.  There isn't even a forum section or threads devoted to the latter (and though she's welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, I get the impression that GG wouldn't want to post any work here even if there were).

You are also the Head Web Developer (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5757.0.html) of the Phoenix Project.  So you are directly associated with the project, in a staff position no less.  Now, I can understand that your viewpoint and actions might not represent that of Titan Network in a legal status, but to the casual observer, the administration of Titan Network is much more closely tied with the Phoenix Project than any of its counterparts.  People are going to associate one with the other.

Whether intentional or otherwise, Tony, you've become "the face" of Titan Network to a lot of people.  This is why you sometimes wind up with credit you don't feel you deserve.  Many people believe (rightly) that Titan Network wouldn't exist without you, and while most people don't know the names of the heads of various projects, everyone knows your name.

If you'd like to stop some of the undeserved credit, encourage the leads of various projects (like the wiki admins or the heads of Phoenix Project/Heroes and Villains project) to step up and say "You're welcome" when someone unintentionally thanks you for their efforts.  If they become more public and establish themselves as visible figures in their own right, people will be more circumspect in who they offer their thanks to - simply because they know who to thank.

Well, that's kinda why I posted that message, to try to clear up the confusion.  Especially the part about how you shouldn't be surprised if you see some Titan resources--including myself--doing stuff with either or both projects.  I'll help out either of these teams as much as my schedule and abilities allow.

How entertaining!  Honestly, I have more faith in the project here now...

Edited: Please, no personal attacks! --TonyV

Thanks for clearing that up!! I was a little ...concerned with some discussions. Ultimately I think it's hugely important that the community sees itself as one body.

When I was thinking about this concept though, I started thinking about the different servers- virtue, champion, etc. The players who played on servers started playing on a server but then stayed or moved for different reasons. The play and the people on each server was a little different, and people were attracted to what made them most comfortable. While COX is one community, we do have to remember that there is diversity within the body, and lots of different talents within the body, and that's ok!

I think that what's going to be produced as a result of the game ending will likely be as varied and interesting as the many people who played...as long as we all come together at the end of the day and have respect for one another's different visions I think it'll be just fine

I should also point out that ""Plan Z" basically refers to any game-related project made by the CoH community to try and fill the CoH-shaped hole we have in our gamning lives - like last night, I was talking to 3 diferent players who each had their own ideas for some type of superhero games - 1 was an MO, and 2 were MUDs - and they all were interested in putting them under the Plan Z banner on the Titan Network.

None of the projects - current or future - that are grouped under the Plan Z banner should be seen as "rivals" - the CoH community is quite large, and very creative, so naturally there will be a wide variety of ideas, tastes, styles and concepts when it comes to projects that players would like to develop, and the Titan Network is big enough to accommodate them all.
Sharing ideas, tips and solutions helps everyone overcome the basic problems that any game project will meet, regardless of what form they take.

What are the creative differences between the two primary Plan Z's?

Well I suppose that clears things up.  I will support both projects, but I can't shake the feeling of a fracturing community.

K, don't get me wrong with this but.... don't you think the less projects around, the more focused both developers and community could be? I mean, isn't it a waste of effort and resources if people keeps picking info, codes, lore, etc, from one game to another, instead of working together trying to get the best CoH-like possible?

I'm also concerned about the fracturing of the community, actually. I feel like we would be more likely to succeed if we had everyone collectively working on one project as opposed to dividing up and expending energy and resources on multiple projects. I acknowledge that everyone has their own idea of what they'd like to see in a City of Heroes successor, and some of said ideas may conflict with others, but it's all about compromise and, most importantly, community. If we don't stand united, then we'll fall divided.

In summation, I feel that we all share the same goal: to recreate, as closely as possible, a City of Heroes successor that will emulate what we loved about the game whilst not stepping on anyone's toes where intellectual property rights are concerned. I'm afraid that dividing up in order to pursue different development visions will drastically reduce Plan Z's chance of success.

While I appreciate Tony's post and the terms in which it was made, I have to agree with many other posters about the unhelpful fracturing of the community efforts.

As stated, artistic differences are to be expected and the mark of a good community member is to work with others and compromise to achieve something which, while it may not be THEIR exact preference, is one which is of value to the majority of the membership.

On that basis, I have to say that I feel that the fracturing is a mistake and the best chance for success would be with one spiritual successor to CoX (I do not include alternative options such as the continued attempts to purchase the IP). Given their efforts, achievements and conduct so far, I have to believe that the best group to produce that result is the Titan Network and headed by TonyV. 

need moah drama, less info.  :P

Quote from: CapaDevans on December 02, 2012, 12:15:29 AMWhile I appreciate Tony's post and the terms in which it was made, I have to agree with many other posters about the unhelpful fracturing of the community efforts.

Far more unhelpful is the continued animosity and debate about it.  It's happened.  Everyone who was not actually involved with the event carping on either side of the issue is just putting more stress on a bad situation.  From what I read the people actually involved have come to an agreeable arrangement and are working on the details.  If they are not, then they are being polite and not discussing it in public until it's settled out between them. 

Emotions of all sorts are running high due to the shutdown last night.  Give everyone a chance to breathe.  Maybe the principals actually involved with the situation may resolve their differences.  Maybe not.  Let's get on with business and let them work it out.

I'm also thinking that it's much better to work at one game, it's hard enough to make one of them playable sometimes. Maybe it's also nice to know something about this creative differences, right now we have two projects running and no one knows in what form they will be differnt. When we don't understand what's going on here, then how can a person understand this when he is reading something about the project(s) on a news site?

...and even when there are two projects, then merge them to one sometimes when it's clear what the people will like more. I'm just happy that the community is not splitting up, it's hard enough right now after the shutdown for everyone.

While I'm new to the board, I have to agree on the idea of solidarity. I think there should be one official mod. Still, anyone with ideas should go forward. We should unite and compromise on things, though.

Quote from: Roughtrade on December 02, 2012, 12:41:24 AM
Far more unhelpful is the continued animosity and debate about it.  It's happened.  Everyone who was not actually involved with the event carping on either side of the issue is just putting more stress on a bad situation.  From what I read the people actually involved have come to an agreeable arrangement and are working on the details.  If they are not, then they are being polite and not discussing it in public until it's settled out between them. 

Emotions of all sorts are running high due to the shutdown last night.  Give everyone a chance to breathe.  Maybe the principals actually involved with the situation may resolve their differences.  Maybe not.  Let's get on with business and let them work it out.

This is good advice.

At this point, there are two Plan Z projects. That appears unlikely to change, and it's especially unlikely that individuals outside of the respective projects' leadership are going to change it. If you sincerely wish to avoid further drama or fracturing, then the best way to do so is to accept the situation and move on.

post retracted

Quote from: Roughtrade on December 02, 2012, 12:41:24 AM
Far more unhelpful is the continued animosity and debate about it.  It's happened.  Everyone who was not actually involved with the event carping on either side of the issue is just putting more stress on a bad situation.  From what I read the people actually involved have come to an agreeable arrangement and are working on the details.  If they are not, then they are being polite and not discussing it in public until it's settled out between them. 

Emotions of all sorts are running high due to the shutdown last night.  Give everyone a chance to breathe.  Maybe the principals actually involved with the situation may resolve their differences.  Maybe not.  Let's get on with business and let them work it out.

Well said.

I may be the tech lead of The Phoenix Project, but I am planning to assist Heroes and Villains to the best of my ability as well. I see two games with two very different targets. If anything else, the internal friendly competition will serve to make the final product better for all involved in a safe manner. Instead of the market banging you over the head, the internal competition will make the issues with both clear now, before inertia makes it hard to address and fix.

Frankly, I must thank Golden Girl for this move. While emotions ran high, after awhile, I spotted issues with our own direction, and began the work to solve that today. The break was the shock to the system needed.

Quote from: darkgob on December 02, 2012, 02:13:16 AM
I have now lost all faith in any projects that bear the name Plan Z.  The project was already spinning its wheels (remember how we were gonna have a demo by Nov 30th/Dec 1st?), this failure of leadership on all sides just seals the deal.

Yeah, I'm out.

Jesus! Who thought we'd have a demo by shutdown? That timeline would be improbable in a true, running game studio! A dedicated staff could maybe have a basic, and I mean basic, trailer or something in the 2 months or so since Plan Z was thought about, but never a simple gaming community. That's absurd!

Quote from: Lunar on December 01, 2012, 10:16:41 PM
What are the creative differences between the two primary Plan Z's?

This.  Please bring the answer to this question out into the open.

i am in no position to give advice to either project as i have no great talents. However, like everyone else here, I played City almost every day. City had so many different concepts that you could run a very long time before you caught up to yourself. I understand that each project has a different "take" on how it should/could work, but isn't there a way to visualize both or all of those concepts under one game umbrella just as COH did?

It seems to me that if those that have the talents work together and create one concept at a time, we would then be able to enjoy both or all without any risk of fracture.

Again, I am no one, and I am just putting my perception out there for all to see.

I don't agree about needing to focus or that its bad to have two or more groups working on ideas.  Let them go about developing creatively and organically, let them grow and evolve and see what happens. 

The huge advantage is that these projects are rooted in the same community and can be complimentary and cross-pollinate, collaborate, or otherwise do things that commercial projects can't.  If we all maintain a spirit of good will, patience, and remember what the last three months have been like and let that empower us, then I believe the future is bright.

I'm willing to wait years, even decades to see what comes out of this.  And I'll be playing other games in the meantime.  But if talented and dedicated people (which we have in abundance) can put something together out of their passion for the game, community and lore, then its worth waiting and seeing what that is.  For example, I hadn't thought along these lines until someone mentioned a MUD, but a superhero MUD with a character creator/visualizer a la CoH's character creator is an intriguing idea and something I'd definitely support.  Who knows what else someone will come up with and what it will inspire in others.

After all, sometimes being a hero is as much inspiring others as winning every fight.

p/g

Quote from: Fulcrum on December 02, 2012, 02:43:36 AM


This.  Please bring the answer to this question out into the open.

The reason it's not being brought out in the open is because we are trying to avoid fanning the original flames behind it all. There were a lot of hard feelings and accusations involved.

And for the record I was one of the people supportive of Golden Girl during all this. I was hurt and shocked that she did not disclose any of this beforehand.

But I must point out that she appears to have been planning this for quite a while. The domain was registered about midway through the last month and the content was not put together overnight. Beyond that anything else would be pure speculation.

Truthfully, I believe that supporting both efforts is problematic and will only serve to enhance the confusion thus created.

To my understanding, there have been contributions to the lore of the original project that proved cumbersome and unwieldy, partly due to the fact that they carried with them some potential IP infringement risk. Also, we had established standard templates by which submissions could be easily sorted and incorporated. Unfortunately, some found those templates to be troublesome and chose not to adhere to their use, instead providing their lore contributions via different methods that made it very difficult for the rest of the lore team to work with. It is not so much a difference of vision as it is a difference of methodology. Those who are involved with PZ:PP have been following tested methodology used by many game studios.

In addition, there have also been significant communications issues between members of the project. Although Tony has characterized the matter as "gnashing of teeth and some arguing," the evidence I have been presented with suggests that the matter was far more endemic. While he is correct in saying that we are all part of the same community (players of City of Heroes), he is not correct in saying that there has been discussion and hashing out of details resulting in the agreement of everyone involved  that "Plan Z" refers to an umbrella concept of a spiritual successor to City of Heroes.

I do not believe it would be prudent for any resources to be shared between the two projects, as both would likely become formalized legal entities, there would necessarily be significant ownership concerns that would arise and threaten the viability of all projects and concepts involved. Titan's official support for both projects will only complicate these potential legal issues.

As such, in my role as the business and marketing lead for the original project, it is best for all parties to move away from the Plan Z name in order to reduce the amount of confusion between the two projects. Active confusion between the two projects will only serve to hamper both, and as such it is important that there be a clear distinction made.

Personally, I wish those involved with Heroes and Villains luck, as the development of a game and its studio from scratch is not an effort to be taken lightly.

Tony,

Respectfully, this is a mistake.  Plan Z is at a very fragile stage right now, with emotions at their height in the wake of CoH's actual shutdown, and we're in the recruitment stage where morale is at its most shaky.  This is a time where the entire project could fall apart without strong leadership and clear direction.  This is not the time for halfhearted, offend-nobody conciliation.

Golden Girl's ragequit would be relatively easy to weather, but establishing and promoting a competing project - and make no mistake, it is competing, for time and resources and personnel - is something that could be hugely destructive to the Plan Z effort.  We have people confusing her effort for ours, thinking that her site represents us and that her design has our sanction.  We have people confusing our efforts for hers, talking about Plan Z as a whole as being "CoH with the serial numbers filed off" based on the absurdly unoriginal concepts she threw up on her site, and multiple game news sites referring to Heroes And Villains as though it were the focus of all our efforts.  Golden Girl is doing everything she can to muddy these waters, sending out press releases that claim she's the founder of Plan Z and that this is the realization of what we've been doing.

Maybe you just don't know Golden Girl to the extent that a lot of people do, and maybe you haven't been dealing with her attempts to take over the story and lore work here, but let me lay it out for you: Heroes And Villains is a nonstarter.  Golden Girl's entire roster of characters is a copyright lawsuit waiting to happen, and her insistence on maintaining absolute creative control, paired with her general unreliability, means this will never get anything done.  Except - and this is the problem - dragging Plan Z down with it.  People see multiple successor efforts going on, under the same banner, they see them as linked, and seeing Heroes And Villains inevitably collapse will make them see Plan Z as a failure too.  Our brand will be permanently tarnished by her project's existence, we're going to spend a lot of time refuting charges based on her actions, and we're going to miss out on a lot of volunteer and investment possibilities by virtue of there being one failed "community" effort already.

I'm sure Golden Girl thinks she can pull this off, but if this were orchestrated as an attempt to sabotage Plan Z as punishment for rejecting her, there's little she could have done that was more dangerous.  We've already lost a programmer because of this nonsense.  And frankly, this is the worst possible response you could make.  There is not room under our umbrella for two competing projects, we can't have people working on both at the same time for any number of reasons, and we definitely can't let Golden Girl destroy our brand with her efforts.  All of the good will we've built up under the Plan Z title is about to get flushed down the toilet.  This is something to be publicly rejected, not halfheartedly endorsed and given its own section on the boards.  Heroes And Villains needs to be completely disavowed, by the Titan Network and by the Plan Z staff.  As the head of one, and one of the more public faces of the other, that means you can't be giving multiple projects your endorsement.  Plan Z: The Phoenix Project is the Titan Network's community-based successor effort.  We can't have two.  We're losing faith in our effort because of this fracture, and we're losing faith in our leadership for their inability to deal decisively with the fracture.  You need to change your stance, delete Golden Girl's forum section, and you in particular need to come down hard on her attempts to co-opt the Plan Z name.

We didn't give Golden Girl full creative control, so she's trying to shut us down.  Please don't make it easier for her.

Quote from: Terwyn on December 02, 2012, 03:22:13 AM
While he is correct in saying that we are all part of the same community (players of City of Heroes), he is not correct in saying that there has been discussion and hashing out of details resulting in the agreement of everyone involved  that "Plan Z" refers to an umbrella concept of a spiritual successor to City of Heroes.

Actually, TonyV, Segev and I discussed it yesterday and agreed on the idea.

Quote from: Golden Girl on December 02, 2012, 03:46:00 AM
Actually, TonyV, Segev and I discussed it yesterday and agreed on the idea.

That was *really* a discussion I should have been a part of.

Hello Paragons, how is everyone doing today? It's a brand new day, eh? Tony, is there any way you could turn that underscore in my forum name into a space? Apparently I was already registered on these forums. Since 2009. Why did I do that to my name?

We have work to do around here. *ROLLS UP SLEEVES* The only side I'm taking is Paragon Studios, and the legacy of their unique vision. I'll stand by anyone who wants to help breath life into that vision. I'm glad to see that you will too, Tony.

Golden Girl may not have realized it at first, but what her move has done, is it has offered the players the opportunity to turn the Titan community into a think tank for the online super hero gaming genre. This is a good thing. I think some of the project devs are beginning to see this. Many others will take some convincing, apparently.

For years, I have had ideas for a persistent, collectible, strategy-MMORPG hybrid where each player enters their single-player or co-op campaign or PVP arena with a team, league or super group (depending on the scale of the mission or arena) of customizable, upgradable and tradable heroes that THEY created from scratch in an editor using balanced powers or sets of powers. I have thought of so many ways that this could be interesting in both turn-based and RTS formats, and nothing like it exists today. None of the collectible online games out there let you create your own hero units from scratch, none of them throw your decks/armies into a particularly engaging theme park where there is any sense of an "over-world" where the evolving story matters, and none of them feature a visceral 3D engine capable of putting you right on the field (or sky, or sea, or space) with your heroes or villains if you choose.

So who was the first person to try to convince me to start talking about my idea and see if anyone found it interesting? Golden Girl.

I'll tell you what fracturing is. Fracturing is telling the members of this community that it's either your way, or the highway. Fracturing is telling the members of this community that their ideas don't belong here. That they don't belong here.

So, tell me, Plan Z people. Would my ideas have a place for growth, participation, feedback and development here? Or would you like to exclude Golden Girl's ideas, my ideas, and the other ideas from the table automatically? Because if the answer is "yes", then you have already lost something valuable to your cause and community. I'll leave it to you to ponder what that thing is. Tony knows the answer, I guarantee you.

Quote from: Terwyn on December 02, 2012, 03:46:38 AM
That was *really* a discussion I should have been a part of.

That sounds like it might have been another one of those communication problems that have cropped up from time to time - would you like me to send you the Skype log, or would you prefer to get it from Segev?

Quote from: Golden Girl on December 02, 2012, 03:53:09 AM
That sounds like it might have been another one of those communication problems that have cropped up from time to time - would you like me to send you the Skype log, or would you prefer to get it from Segev?

I have other things I need to talk to him about, but it would be helpful for you to send it to me, yes.

And I would argue that these "communication problems" are demonstrable proof that we have all made mistakes from the beginning.

I just wanted to say that i endorse both and all projects. I admire your efforts or stepping forth and having a vision. I have worked on games in the past and have the ability to work on multiple projects without giving away pertenant information to the other parties. I feel that i can offer somthing unique to both seperately depending on the direction they go. I think the more we put forth the better our chances and we are all CoXers so lets all just get along. TY those who started the projects and i hope to have the pleasure to work with both of you as soon as i greive and finish the things i need to get done involving the deaths of my loved ones.

Quote from: Captain Electric on December 02, 2012, 03:46:59 AM

So, tell me, Plan Z people. Would my ideas have a place for growth, participation, feedback and development here? Or would you like to exclude Golden Girl's ideas, my ideas, and the other ideas from the table automatically? Because if the answer is "yes", then you have already lost something valuable to your cause and community. I'll leave it to you to ponder what that thing is. Tony knows the answer, I guarantee you.

Well, speaking as the Lore Lead for Plan Z: The Phoenix Project, I've actively been trying to get Golden Girl to contribute original ideas to the project since we've begun. We've not been able to use all of the ideas she's submitted to the Phoenix Project due to IP risk and she has been extremely reluctant to revise or change her work at all. You can see the original versions of her submitted work on the Heroes and Villains website. I've offered multiple suggestions in the threads for her submissions, as have several other people, and she's refused to respond to them.

So yes, absolutely, your ideas have room for growth, participation, development, and feedback in the Phoenix Project - with one caveat. You have to be willing to work cooperatively and professionally with us, as we will work cooperatively and professionally with you. :) It's the nature of a communal project that ideas will expand, change, and evolve as others contribute to them, and flatly rejecting those contributions or suggestions to change hamstrings your own ability to work with us. Yes, I've rejected some of Golden Girl's ideas, because they were a clear and present IP risk. And I've requested that she submit some of her other ideas and characters in the Lore forum rather than the Art forum, which she refused to do. It's extremely difficult to work with someone when they refuse to change and react extremely poorly to any suggestions that their work might have clarity, spelling, or IP concerns.

I have not excluded any idea simply because of the person who originated it, nor do I intend to do so. I will review professionally, based on quality of the submission and the Lore's current needs, and suggest revisions, changes, or compromises based on the needs of the game, as you can see from reviewing the Phoenix Project's Lore forum. :)

Okay, just to clear up some misconceptions (and probably create a few more...):

1) I am not a game designer.  My idea of "balance" is not falling out of my chair while playing.  That's why even when I thought the City of Heroes developers were making a mistake, I never gave them much grief about it because I always implicitly knew that I couldn't do any better.  Fun fact: I hardly ever used Mids or various character build tools.  The limit of my ideas for design was, "Which power looks coolest?" while looking at the level-up screen.  And I'm okay with this limitation, because acknowledging it and moving on to something else gives me time to focus on things that are my strenghts.

2) I'm an okay programmer, but nothing near what will be required to create a game.  I'm especially weak when it comes to programming graphics and whatnot, with my expertise really being more in the shuffling data around arena.  I guess I'm not totally stupid to graphics, but I'd be hopelessly incapable of actually generating anything helpful in this area.

3) Golden girl did not "ragequit."  Anyone who claims that is not being truthful.  There had been a rift in vision for several weeks that, despite the best efforts of multiple people including Golden Girl, could not be reconciled.  I'm not going to sum up arguments for something or against another because it would be totally pointless.  My suggestion is to do a little reading up on both projects (keeping in mind that both are still in their infancy and subject to change), decide which one you think is more spot-on, and support that team.  If you really want to be helpful, though, don't do it by trying to tear down someone else or undermining others.  Focus on the positive.  Keep in mind that the enemy of each project is not the other project; it is not having any project at all.  And if you think that Golden Girl is somehow going to tear the community apart or cause the other team's project to derail, I think you have WAY too little faith in the community and the other project and you put WAY too much weight into Golden Girl's capabilities to do something like that (completely neglecting the obvious, which is that she's actually a really nice person who has been a passionate member of this community for a very long time).

4) The Titan Network is not a game development company or organization.  We simply do not have the talent or resources to lead a project of this scope.  Remember the Freem 15 (http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/UnSub/042008/1482_The-FREEM-Phalanx-CoHVs-15-Dev-Staff)?  Those were full-time paid staff with lots of experience in the industry and a rapport developed over years working together for many hours day in and day out at the same physical location.  The Titan Network core team consists of seven or eight people spread all over the world, most of whom have full-time day jobs, none of whom have met each other in person (that I know of), all of whom are volunteers spending at most a few hours per day working on this stuff.

5) It's grossly unfair for us to pick and choose winners and losers like I feel some people here are asking us to do.  Not just to us, but to the people who want to help by working on these projects.  I mean think about it, if you wanted to develop a mobile app that had something to do with City of Heroes, would you rather have us say, "Hey, we're cool with anyone who wants to add something to the mix" and (barring some really bizarre reason why not) help to publicize it, or have me or us as a small group judge it and determine if it's worth the community's time, having the ultimate ability to make or break what you're hoping to accomplish?

If you think that this is going to destroy any chance a Plan Z project has of succeeding, then I'm sorry you feel that way, but I think you're mistaken.  At any rate, it's still very early in the process, so please, give these projects a chance before you just naysay the crap out of them.  I mean, unless you're a graphical code-head trying to decide which to work on, it's not like it will hurt much to just hang out for a while and see what happens.  One may pull out ahead of another, both may take off like wildfire, or both may sputter out, in which case hopefully someone else will come along and raise a banner.

But I'm not the boss of these projects.  It's not like I can tell either team, "Hey, stop doing that," or, "Do it that way."  For that, you need to talk to the leaders of the teams themselves.  Even if I could, though, I like and respect the leaders of both of these teams and I feel like they both deserve support in what they're doing.

I just want to add that I see an interesting difference here, Tony. Whereas Project Phoenix (I think I'm going to stop using that "Plan Z" term) is very communal, it seems at first glance that Golden Girl wants to lead a much more rigidly and single-focused project. Some of the things you rejected, SithRose (should I just call you Rose?), it doesn't look like she's going to waver on. Maybe she's willing to walk that thin IP line to an extent that most of the Project Phoenix people wouldn't be comfortable with. Maybe she knows what she's doing, maybe she's taking a risk, I don't know. Maybe Golden Girl will get some artists, writers, and coders for whom her ideas resonate. Maybe my idea will too. Maybe those players GG mentioned with MUD ideas will make a show too.

The best case scenario is for this community to have as many successful projects as its members have in them. There could be a lot of potential waiting for this forum community to unlock--potential that could see its membership grow and evolve with time, rather than diminish as City of Heroes' closure grows more distant with time and memory. The future could see big things coming out of a collective think tank here. We should saunter into that future unafraid of the diversity it might bring. We don't have to like every project here, just like we don't have to like every super hero game out there. What matters is that those projects' stewards are able to garner their own support and fans, just like yours. The only alternative to an open mind is the monopolization of intellectual real estate here, stifling of broader horizons, and loss of community members over time that might have stuck around if there was more going on to keep their torches burning.

Patrick Henry's words, "United we stand, divided we fall" come to mind...but perhaps they come erroneously.

I guess for me, I'm unsure who to support. If there was just one cause, one PLAN, if you will (and by "plan" I don't mean "umbrella concept", but actual PLAN), then I think it'd be easier to put my loyalty behind it.

However, Tony, when I read you say something like: " The way I see it, there is plenty of room for two games.  (Or even more, if another team wants to jump in and have at it!)"...while I don't disagree with you (it's a free country... people can work and initiate plans left and right as far as I care)... I do have concerns that if somebody doesn't like the Phoenix Project or Golden Girl's Heroes & Villains...they'll think, "I'm going to break off and create a 'Titans & Tyrants' game! I'll just keep it under the 'Plan Z Umbrella' and it will all be good."

Now, perhaps some of the key players of the original plan (which I guess is the Phoenix Project? Or am I not understanding that as well?), didn't see eye to eye on ideas and direction. I get that. But that's where we decide to COMPROMISE. "Okay... I think I can live with <your idea> if you feel you can give <my idea> a bit more thought. Let's sleep on it."

If I was NCSoft reading this, I may even be inclined to be quite happy. "Divide and conquer." "It's just a matter of time before these people continue to fracture... we'll just wait it out. And they'll be nothing more than a memory."

Again... Patrick Henry would most likely find this entire thing questionable at best. :)

Just my opinion... I do wish both projects (well, "both" at the time I type this...who knows how many more ideas may come up...) the very best of luck. And if they're both successful, that's awesome. I'm eager to observe.

I just have my suspicions...and to clarify...this is just my opinion. :) I have no education or experience in the building/programming world.

Quote from: Soundtrack on December 02, 2012, 05:50:29 AM
I guess for me, I'm unsure who to support.

As far as the HaV team is concerned, there's no competition between it and any other community projects - they support the community as a whole.

To go back to the question of a demo by today, I believe that is a distortion of what was suggested. I was lurking and offering a little brainstorming here and there, mostly throwing stuff out on the porch to see if the cat licked it up. Once things started to gel around actual job assignments (ie: having real, useable skills), I refocused back here on the Save Paragon side, so take my vague recollection for what it's worth. What I recall was a hope to "have something to show" by today, with no real firm goal for what that would be until some technical decisions were made and any problems that might go with them addressed. When I left, there was some proof of concept modelling, different people playing with different software, and generally trying to narrow down those technical aspects. I never expected there to be anything to show, today. Anyone who did probably wasn't paying attention.

That said, if I had been "paying attention," this split wouldn't have caught me completely flat-footed.

As for the two, competing projects, I'll say what I said at the beginning of Plan Z, when people were saying it took away from the main work of Plan A, B, C, or whatever plan they felt was their baby: We're all working toward a common purpose, which is keeping the community together.  If Plan Z is going to become Iron Chef: Plan Z, that's fine, but much of the community can't afford two game subs. Just sayin'.

Plan Z: The Phoenix Project had a meeting tonight; you can expect something by tomorrow evening from myself or Terwyn summarizing how that project is expected to develop in the near future.

There has been repeated question as to what the "differences in direction" between the projects are. These differences are best understood by examining both and seeing for yourself. Speaking only for the Phoenix Project, its direction is a communal, cooperative approach towards a Silver-Age themed Super MMO, and I encourage those with questions to examine the forums of both projects. Feel free to ask questions of the team leaders in order to clear up any concerns. We are open to discussion with anyone, and the differences may best be understood by examining both and seeing for yourself.

I am sad that some feel they can't work with either project if there is not just one. The chances of re-unification are as good as were my odds of winning the $500 million Powerball jackpot on the one ticket I bought. All I can do is encourage those who would contribute if there was just one project to take a look at both and then pretend the one they like better is the only one. Because, if they like it better, they will want it to succeed more, and their efforts for it will be strongest.

I obviously hope people will contribute to The Phoenix Project, as that is the project to which my efforts are dedicated. I know we all want there to be a continuation of this community. Whatever we do, please do not attack each other nor badmouth each other, no matter what project anybody is working on. Recognize that we all want the same thing in the end, and that our best effect will come if we remain positive in all our thoughts, words, and deeds related to this community.

Thanks,
Segev Stormlord

Quote from: dwturducken on December 02, 2012, 06:43:11 AM
That said, if I had been "paying attention," this split wouldn't have caught me completely flat-footed.

I was paying attention and it still caught me flat footed.

Quote from: Segev on December 02, 2012, 06:52:55 AM
I am sad that some feel they can't work with either project if there is not just one.

I don't get that kind of mentallity either - this isn't some kind of sports thing where you can only support one team :P

For what it's worth as a mostly-lurker I completely agree with the stance that Tony V is taking here. At the end of the day most everyone coming to the Titan forums has a common goal, we all hope that there will come a time when we can play City of Heroes or a game like City of Heroes again. And that's where I've always understood Plan Z to come from, the idea that if nobody saves CoH the the community will make a successor. I think something like Titan is a great place to contain and support those ideas, not to necessarily pick the winners among those ideas and certainly not from this far out.

Now that's great, but it's inevitable that along the way we're going to see divides occurring. Different people will have different ideas about what made CoH great. Different people will have different ideas about worthwhile enhancements that can be made to the game too. Sometimes these differences will be the kind that can be worked through. Other times, apparently like here, the differences are too big and somebody will feel the need to move on. Fractures are going to happen, the goal shouldn't be to 100% stop them from happening, it should be to work through differences when they occur and when those differences are irreconcilable to work out how to best move forward.

If Golden Girl and the Phoenix team couldn't work together, but each really wanted to work on a successor game then a split is really the only option. But it doesn't have to be us against them, two paths doesn't have to split the chances of getting something off the ground. I look at it instead as a second chance at somehow bottling lightning and getting a game going. I'm new to this forum and I'd like to say best of luck to both teams. I have no idea which is more likely to succeed at the moment, but I'm delighted at how many talented people want to have a crack at making a worthy successor to this great game.

And just for a little bit of perspective here...
Expecting one single attempt and path to begin and remain and become successful is lovely and all, but it's really not very realistic and extremely unlikely.
That's just not, generally, how the creative process works.
Stuff happens. Splits happen. It's okay.
For all we know, both current projects will fall apart, implode or rework themselves several times over before anything may ever come of them... And we could end up with 5 other ones that will some day take their place... Or switches back and forth and/or re-unifications of who knows what sorts.
Nothing planned at this point, but roughly 95% of life is unplanned.

I understand why people may be troubled by things... but, hey, trouble is part of the game.
Relax, find your peace and do what you believe in and let everyone else do what they believe in.
Things fall into place that way.

All the best to everyone. :)

I find this a bit complicated as both teams will have different ideas and concepts put together. They both have the same goal of making a successor to CoX. So, why don't we just join the two teams together and make a league instead? This isn't competition or anything like that, right?

Just caught up on all the responses to this...

I do understand divergent paths.  Sometimes it's inevitable, and I'm sorry there had to be hard feelings (to be clear, I don't know any of the circumstances, just going off what Tony said).  I have faith in this community, we all should given the last three months.  But I cannot help but think this will become some sort of competition.  I do agree that expecting everything to fit together is wholly unrealistic.  But so is assuming there will be no future conflicts.  People feel the need to pick sides, even when the don't want to.  People will inevitably be drawn to one project over the other, for personal reasons.  That is what bothers me. 

Said, I really am rooting for both projects. 

Quote from: TonyV on December 02, 2012, 04:18:37 AM
Okay, just to clear up some misconceptions (and probably create a few more...):

3) Golden girl did not "ragequit."  Anyone who claims that is not being truthful.  There had been a rift in vision for several weeks that, despite the best efforts of multiple people including Golden Girl, could not be reconciled.  I'm not going to sum up arguments for something or against another because it would be totally pointless.  My suggestion is to do a little reading up on both projects (keeping in mind that both are still in their infancy and subject to change), decide which one you think is more spot-on, and support that team.  If you really want to be helpful, though, don't do it by trying to tear down someone else or undermining others.  Focus on the positive.  Keep in mind that the enemy of each project is not the other project; it is not having any project at all.  And if you think that Golden Girl is somehow going to tear the community apart or cause the other team's project to derail, I think you have WAY too little faith in the community and the other project and you put WAY too much weight into Golden Girl's capabilities to do something like that (completely neglecting the obvious, which is that she's actually a really nice person who has been a passionate member of this community for a very long time).

5) It's grossly unfair for us to pick and choose winners and losers like I feel some people here are asking us to do.  Not just to us, but to the people who want to help by working on these projects.  I mean think about it, if you wanted to develop a mobile app that had something to do with City of Heroes, would you rather have us say, "Hey, we're cool with anyone who wants to add something to the mix" and (barring some really bizarre reason why not) help to publicize it, or have me or us as a small group judge it and determine if it's worth the community's time, having the ultimate ability to make or break what you're hoping to accomplish?

If you think that this is going to destroy any chance a Plan Z project has of succeeding, then I'm sorry you feel that way, but I think you're mistaken.  At any rate, it's still very early in the process, so please, give these projects a chance before you just naysay the crap out of them.  I mean, unless you're a graphical code-head trying to decide which to work on, it's not like it will hurt much to just hang out for a while and see what happens.  One may pull out ahead of another, both may take off like wildfire, or both may sputter out, in which case hopefully someone else will come along and raise a banner.

But I'm not the boss of these projects.  It's not like I can tell either team, "Hey, stop doing that," or, "Do it that way."  For that, you need to talk to the leaders of the teams themselves.  Even if I could, though, I like and respect the leaders of both of these teams and I feel like they both deserve support in what they're doing.

You (or the leaders of the 2 projects) REALLY need to sum up the differences, ideally via an agreed post between the leaderships of the 2 projects, if that's not possible, brokered by a neutral party such as yourself. Also for the less technical of us, a quick FAQ as to things like what the difference is between the two engines being used, and the implications for the final games would be very handy.

This would make it much easier for those of us who want to support one of the two projects if we could understand what happened, and where the projects will seriously diverge, as this might have some bearing on which one we choose. Some people will be disillusioned and not support either. I got so fed up with the "mushroom magagement" in the IT industry which was one of the reasons I quit it to retrain as a statistician, I thought we'd be more open here.

My main concern as I've put on the H&V section is that making 2 games is dooming both. I don't feel that there's room in the market for 2 games, and the one that comes out first will have an advantage. This may mean it's released undercooked, and puts people off both games.

Well, I know which one I intended to join up for and which one I intend to support. Subjectively that's based on past experience, differences and I guess 'history', and Objectively it's based on which game doesn't have a bunch of cliché, law-suitable characters cramming out a very large 'signature' line up...

I have to say that I think the continued use of 'Project Z' is both confusing and harmful. I initially thought that H&V was 'the' Project Z planned after CoH. Until a friend pointed out there were two, and I realised it was a splinter group. And, yes, I will continue to call it a splinter group. All calls for 'playing nice' are one thing, but from what I can tell, Tony V's assurance or not, this DOES look like someone taking not only their ball but a LOT of the design assets that one group was using and making use of them elsewhere.

Not only does this lead to confusion for rookies on 'which project is what?' but questions like 'Which project is using Titan City? And stuff like Skorpion?' (Even though I think that entire group is OH so god-awfully cheesy...)
Just my tuppence ha'penny.

There is confusion, it's normal, since it's confusing. But there is one, very, very important confusion that needs immediate lifting.

If you want people to stop talking about division, talk about mutualizing. What does Heroes & Villains plan on sharing with the Phoenix Project ? What is the point of contention and hence, won't be seen in this new project ?

There is a lot of code and protocols that can be shared, a lot of creative assets too, even if it has never been seen. Why not share factions and characters ? Share timelines and intertwine the stories ? Or does Golden Girl give a totally different universe at all ?

There was a time when a dozen or more different hominid species walked the Earth. Now there is only one. But it wasn't for lack of trying on the others behalf. Heck, we weren't even the first hominids to create art and music. But here we are. We adapted, we evolved. We might not have been first, and depending on some unlucky natural catastrophes, there might have been some better version of hominid walking around today--with or without us. But, owing to a mix of skill and luck, we're here, we survived, we invented the Internet and now we have super hero MMOs.  8)

You may choose not to believe me when I say this, but I saw this coming from the first moment I read about Plan Z. AND I'M AN OPTIMIST. In a perfect world, we'd all work away on this one thing like good worker ants. I completely agree that things would be better if that happened. But there's just one hitch: humans. We're not dealing with crazy saber toothed predators in this case, but the environment within which our community is going to have to adapt and evolve is still littered with hazards. People get married, they get new jobs, they have babies, they get mad at each other, they disappear without notice, they lose steam, they feel under-appreciated, it happens.

Meanwhile, this won't be giving most of us extremely pressurized incentives like angry bosses and deadlines and paychecks under which most creative professionals end up spewing out their best work. And for those of you reading this in your early 20s, hoo boy, get ready: projects like this take years, and during that time, you will be hoovering up all kinds of new responsibilities and drama in your personal lives.

The phrase "Divided we fall" has been grossly misappropriated in this thread. If these forums said "No" to other ideas and projects, and Project Phoenix didn't work out in the end, what then? I'll tell you what then. We'd all be wishing these forums had not said "No" to other ideas and projects.

And there will be people who would never have preferred working on Project Phoenix over some other thing to begin with, whether that be Heroes and Villains or some other thing in the future. Telling these people that, "No, we need you working on OUR project, not on ANYTHING ELSE", is in reality not much different than showing some people the door.

This is a wonderful opportunity wrapped up in some otherwise unfortunate circumstances. In evolution we often call that "luck". More opportunities to participate will increase our chances of having more participants, who will increase our chances of, well, surviving (thriving?) as a community. If you're reading this and you've got a zany idea bottled up for an online super hero game and spiritual successor to City of Heroes, when the heck is a better time going to come along to throw it at a wall and see if it sticks?

Everyone should probably just drop the "Plan Z" term though, or just let Golden Girl have it, whichever is the most efficient path of least resistance.

I have to agree with a few other posters here...that expecting a single direction effort is probably expecting too much.  And seems too much like trying to put all the eggs in one basket.  And, quite frankly, from the level of cooperation I have seen, I would not be surprised to see the members of team A jump in and help Team B if it is ever needed.....I also can see the members of one team moving lock stock and barrel to the other team should their efforts fall through.

In the end, as has been said, there is room enough.   And we have the model of COH to show us that we DON'T have to pick one or the other.  We had the Blue, the Red, and the Gold,  Remember?  I see nothing wrong with Plan Z developing in that manner.   All one game, just different aspects of it.

I just think its a shame that its barely two days after the shutdown and there is already division in the community.

This. I am afraid Phoenix will miss GG's enthusiasm and H&V will be light on resourses. I only have time to devote to one or the other (and it's not all that much unfortunately). This puts me, and I  imagine most here, in the position of chosing. This makes a split inevitable,IMHO.o matter what I  suppose the is always enough time on the interwebs for opinion and feedback for both projects.

Quote from: Spellcaster Hana on December 02, 2012, 10:24:14 AM
I find this a bit complicated as both teams will have different ideas and concepts put together. They both have the same goal of making a successor to CoX. So, why don't we just join the two teams together and make a league instead? This isn't competition or anything like that, right?

I agree completely.

Even if the two efforts have agreed to disagree, and have set peaceful terms between them, it very apparent that people looking at the these messages on the Titan Network will see a dilution of effort. It greatly diminishes the legitimacy of any successor CoX project.

Wouldn't it be best to just place both paths back into one Plan Z attempt, or are the two of them so foreign to the other as to prevent compromise?

I have been directing all of my friends from the CoX community here to view the fantastic work being done. I am positive that they will misunderstand what they see with two efforts underway, and will lose interest as a result.

Quote from: HEATSTROKE on December 02, 2012, 03:08:22 PM
I just think its a shame that its barely two days after the shutdown and there is already division in the community.

Amen to that... visions and egos should be put aside and keep the best and strongest team united, otherwise the little hope there was about having a real "spiritual succesor" will fade away. It's my 2 cents only, but I'm spreading word in the Spanish forum and the Spanish City ex-players FB group and I know what they will say.

Quote from: Terlin on December 02, 2012, 03:26:53 PMI have been directing all of my friends from the CoX community here to view the fantastic work being done. I am positive that they will misunderstand what they see with two efforts underway, and will lose interest as a result.

Two? Here's to hoping your friends don't frighten that easily because I don't see this community stopping at two. :)

My problem is not that there is two projects per se, but the way the split was done and by whom. A couple of people in this thread have echo'd exactly my concerns but as my previous post didn't make the point as clearly as I wanted, let me do what I do best and speak plainly and risk upsetting someone.

1) Making a new successor is a tough ask
2) Keeping quiet about splitting while making websites in the background is underhanded and disrespectful to the people who started the process and have been doing their utmost to keep this trucking
3) The person heading the '2nd Plan Z' doesn't think things through - see the copyright issues - and is more likely to bring down everyone who is trying to make a successor to CoX. No matter which plan they're on. That's bad. Very bad.

If someone else headed the alternative Plan Z then MAYBE it wouldn't be so bad. But GG .... hell to the frack no ... get me as FAR away as possible from that disaster waiting to happen.

If Tony said he needed cash to start a studio now, I'd give everything I could because I believe his team thinks things through and it wouldn't be money down the drain. I won't sub into a law suit waiting to happen.

I never wanted to lose CoX. I'll go a long way to get it back or something pretty darned close. But I want to see a reasonable chance of whatever evolves to work. I don't want to see everyone putting in a lot of effort wasted and having hopes raised to be dashed by someone who doesn't think things through, talks nice to peoples face while planning to stab them in the back.

That's my opinion, I'm entitled to it and you're free to disagree.

I know you said you don't want sides, Tony but that's the way I feel.

Edit: Again, please no personal attackes. --TonyV

Quote from: Captain Electric on December 02, 2012, 04:05:55 PM
Two? Here's to hoping your friends don't frighten that easily because I don't see this community stopping at two. :)

I sincerely hope your are very wrong.

For any project to succeed, it needs a vision that will drive it to that success. That means that while ideas are gathered and considered, it retains an overriding focus to propel it forward.

Those are the values I've applied to the many projects I've completed in my lifetime. I've been told that I'm very open minded, and I do believe that opposing views need a place at the meeting table. That does not mean you split the energies of the development group into many fragments. You take what you find useful that promotes the vision of the project, and continue on.

So, if we are to have parallel efforts, they need to be central to one vision. If you disagree, just imagine a more ridiculous scenario of ten or twenty simultaneous efforts. What level of energy can the Titan community bring to that? It would not, and would gravitate toward only the top options. Also, I find it unlikely that any studio or firm would wade through all those development efforts if promoted by the same community: competing companies perhaps, but not from the same source.

Wow....looking at this, I would almost think I was seeing the Presidential race again with all the vindictive crap being spewed forth.

People, TonyV has tried, as we all should, to be adult about this. There IS a different vision...okay. I personally think that is a GOOD thing...Might it slow progress...perhaps.   But I would rather have something good than quick.

If someone working on one project likes it better than the other....no problem.  If that means one project gets fewer people to help....so be it.  Personally, I don't know if I would want some one working on one of the projects he or she disagreed with.

I saw some one post about how bad it was to show division only two days after the shut down.   People, the only real division is by those being loud and vocal against one side or the other or the fact that there are two different views.   I see the potential developers agreeing to disagree and moving forward. 

If the only way to show unity is to disavow one side or the other, you can count me out.  If the only way to show unity is jump on the "I hate <insert name here> so don't support his/her" bandwagon, then you can count me out.

I admit, it is easy to attack and get all upset and make sure everyone else is upset too (we see some fine examples of that in this thread, don't we?) 

But that is helping nothing.    To paraphrase a character from the Pern books: Pay Heed to the Weyrleader (TonyV) and spare him you're petty carping.

Quote from: Dylan Clearbrook on December 02, 2012, 05:19:04 PM

But that is helping nothing.    To paraphrase a character from the Pern books: Pay Heed to the Weyrleader (TonyV) and spare him you're petty carping.

How dare you invoke McCaffrey the great here?

Bravo, nicely done. And good advice.

Folks, we can be civil about this. If you prefer one project over the other then, by all means, contribute to that one.  There is no need to start politicizing things.

That's the path to the Dark side- AKA everyone elses forums. We may have a temporary access problem with our city but we are still the best community in gaming. If we keep that in mind, we'll do just fine.

I think people need to keep in mind just how early in the process we are here. However many similarities there are in the two projects right now they're surely going to be very different by the end of things. It's as if some people are imagining these two games coming out to market together just because they're starting out now. If there's a project you believe in more than another then great, support that project. Whichever project is best supported has the best chance of being made and is going to develop far faster.

The biggest threat to any Plan Z right now isn't the split occurring here, it's the negativity it's bringing out from some quarters. If a community game is going to be made there are going to be bigger setbacks than this along the way. We can't have everyone screaming 'DOOOOOOOOOOM!!!' at every one. On the plus side I think that Tony V and Segev have handled this extremely well and I'm glad they're trying to keep this from developing into opposing factions.

It far too ****en early to be condemning anyone for any issues, we need stay focused on the idea of our community. I can support two projects, I do what I can for either with my limited time and total lack of talent and when needed small amounts of cash. creating factions in the community is bad! Lets at least see where the projects can go first. It really sad to see some people flinging mud like attacks on people because of some current "copyright issue" Let us face it Stateman himself really resembles in a lot of ways Superman. Stop the mud, lets work on projects together when possible and worry about IP issues when there is actually a product. No carts before the horses her and let us all be friends again.

The community will have to weather worse things than this. When there's a job to be done over obstacles, you've got to be optimistic about your strength to overcome them; this is different than pretending those obstacles won't be treacherous or that they won't be there at all. Which is what I feel like some people have been indulging in, based on the shock and surprise in this thread.

I believe we are capable of achieving something that will give this entire industry pause--perhaps more than once. Project Phoenix looks awesome, but Tony is offering us many baskets instead of one, and saying "No" to a free exchange of ideas would be strategically unsound, given the gauntlet of challenges and obstacles that any single project will have to evolve to surmount. Most canceled MMORPGs fail in development, not after launch. In many cases it has nothing to do with resources and everything to do with creative differences or momentum or unmotivated devs or ideas that just didn't stick to the wall hard enough.

This opens the door for anyone with a big imagination who can organize other people around a great idea for a spiritual successor. I think people here will see the wisdom in Tony's choice later on, when it bears fruit.

Quote from: Captain Electric on December 02, 2012, 08:53:44 PM
The community will have to weather worse things than this. When there's a job to be done over obstacles, you've got to be optimistic about your strength to overcome them; this is different than pretending those obstacles won't be treacherous or that they won't be there at all. Which is what I feel like some people have been indulging in, based on the shock and surprise in this thread.

I believe we are capable of achieving something that will give this entire industry pause--perhaps more than once. Project Phoenix looks awesome, but Tony is offering us many baskets instead of one, and saying "No" to a free exchange of ideas would be strategically unsound, given the gauntlet of challenges and obstacles that any single project will have to evolve to surmount. Most canceled MMORPGs fail in development, not after launch. In many cases it has nothing to do with resources and everything to do with creative differences or momentum or unmotivated devs or ideas that just didn't stick to the wall hard enough.

This opens the door for anyone with a big imagination who can organize other people around a great idea for a spiritual successor. I think people here will see the wisdom in Tony's choice later on, when it bears fruit.

So, who is making Plan Z: ParagonMOO?

I have PlanZ: Paper Doll Rising planning now!



Just trying to lighten the mood a bit.... ;D


Actually, I'm surprised it wasn't done with COH already. Costume Creator: Paper edition.

Quote from: blackjak on December 02, 2012, 09:58:34 PM
I have PlanZ: Paper Doll Rising planning now!



Just trying to lighten the mood a bit.... ;D


Actually, I'm surprised it wasn't done with COH already. Costume Creator: Paper edition.

Heh.  Thanks.

I think we need to relax a little, suspicions of future conflict and a chink in the community armor shouldn't have us at each other's throats. 

Quote from: blackjak on December 02, 2012, 09:58:34 PM

Actually, I'm surprised it wasn't done with COH already. Costume Creator: Paper edition.

Ok show of hands, how many of us would actually buy this?

ooh, ooh, me, me!!!

Actually, I wish some one could get a hold of the EDEN people and get a copy of the COH: Role Playing Game that they weren't allowed to publish when NCSoft bought up the game. 

That could go a long way in helping and, with a few changes for legal reasons, be on offline pen/paper version of either Plan Z

Quote from: JWBullfrog on December 02, 2012, 10:20:51 PM

Ok show of hands, how many of us would actually buy this?

ooh, ooh, me, me!!!

Fine! <begrudgingly raises hand>

Quote from: Dylan Clearbrook on December 02, 2012, 10:25:52 PM
Actually, I wish some one could get a hold of the EDEN people and get a copy of the COH: Role Playing Game that they weren't allowed to publish when NCSoft bought up the game. 

That could go a long way in helping and, with a few changes for legal reasons, be on offline pen/paper version of either Plan Z

I've been considering doing exactly that and posting it in the Roleplaying forum, but today I'm just too tired.

*

Yes, I and many of the rest of the Phoenix Project team have been watching this thread. We're currently working on plans that should quell all legal issues as well as free TonyV and Titan of any responsibilities it has regarding us. I'm not going to talk about what those are because I'm going to let our project manager or producer make the official statement (yes, we're going to be operating like a business, henceforth. :)) Of course, we can still be friends, will still be friends, we welcome any further input, I at least and I know of some others who have personally wished GG the best of luck, and yes, I'll be sticking around. After all, I've got a CoH d20 roleplaying system to make. ;)

Well, all. You're Doing It Completely Wrong.

We have a community so large that we can afford to create a game in which *every human* can feel a gameplay similar to CoX, we'll have teams dedicated to invent *new input systems (Augmented Reality helmet & Force Feedback cape)* designed to go with the gameplay. The rules will be *a new set of gaming rules*, called *D609 (better than D20 !)*, the game will afford development of *a new programming language based on brainfuck*, which will run on *a new quantic hardware*, which *with all our crowd funding* will be *distributed freely to gamers in and around the world !*

*cough*

I'll register the domain and open the forum of "Plan µ: Idealists and Megalonaniacs"(sic) soon, keep in touch ;)

Go home, Mister Bison. You're drunk.  :P

What can I say to the assembled french community ? Oh wait... now there are 2 Plan Z ? Like a "Plan ZZ" ? I hope there will not be more and more Plan Z... 'cause we could have a Plan Zzzzzzzzz...

I'm totally lost. And TonyV's explainations are peaceful but don't convince me.

Moreover, no answers given (yet) to community about differences between the 2 projects. We know the method, the way of thinking of the Phoenix project and most of their choices. But I don't know anything about the Heroes and Vilains project. Today we need respect, I think. Don't have the same behavior as NC, please. Don't ignore people. Golden Girl, your short sentences reveal great anger or great frustration. Feel free to speak up like Bison said, please.

Maybe a vote is the best thing to put the umbrella of "Plan Z" over one of these 2 projects. There are 2 forums. We can compare. If Titan Network, Golden Girl and Phoenix City team want it, give a voice for the Community.

Well, I don't mean to ignore you, but I just don't feel comfortable saying what I think the differences are without the direct approval of the executive board, and we are planning a significant, imminent change, but I don't even know how imminent (I do know that it's a top priority, but given that we are all volunteers at this point and we have real life schedules that do take priority, it may still be a little while before the change happens).

I will say that all of the documentation and much of the discussion for the Phoenix Project is public.  We have a lore document and other design docs that you can download from our respective sections. Some of these are rather long - the lore document I know is over 550 pages. I can also direct you to the currently locked threads containing some of Golden Girl's lore. I don't know as much about the details of the other sides of either project because I'm on the writing team and not on any of the other teams by personal choice.

Most of the discussion is also public - anybody who wishes to propose anything may do so, but we will analyze any proposal critically with an eye to ensure that it not only fits in with and compliments the rest of the game and is not a legal liability or outside the scope of our programming. The best way to become part of the team is to start contributing, and I can name a number of people on this forum who have so far only contributed criticism, but whose criticism has been very helpful and for which I am thankful that they are with us. We are open to the community, but we are also doing our best to be professional.

I can't speak for Heroes and Villains. I am not a member of the project, and, due to personal time commitments, I don't think I will be any time soon except perhaps as a very peripheral editor. I do feel safe in saying that leaving the Phoenix Project and starting Heroes and Villains was Golden Girl's decision, not ours, and that many of us, myself among them, are sad to see her go.

Sorry, I should have to precise : I know the Phoenix Project, I follow it since 2 months and there are links of all google docs in this new french community forum (too quickly created the last day of the game, with no real hosting*...) And I know how you have done all of this work : with the community.

I only have a (bad ?) feeling that make me say the lack of respect is elsewhere.

*It's a call ^^

Quote from: John Phaser on December 03, 2012, 12:52:23 AM
What can I say to the assembled french community ? Oh wait... now there are 2 Plan Z ? Like a "Plan ZZ" ? I hope there will not be more and more Plan Z... 'cause we could have a Plan Zzzzzzzzz...

I'm totally lost. And TonyV's explainations are peaceful but don't convince me.

"Plan Z" is just that--a plan to develop a successor to City of Heroes.  Try not to think of it as a specific product or team, but as an idea.

Or for a more concrete example, we had a "Plan C" or so, which was to have City of Heroes acquired by another company.  There were several companies talked about and even approached (we're still pursuing one now (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6354.0.html)).  We didn't call each effort to approach each company some separate plan or name; we just lumped them all under "Plan C".  So kind of like we had Plan C: Valve, Plan C: Riot Games, Plan C: Disney, etc., we have Plan Z: The Phoenix Project and Plan Z: Heroes and Villains.

When there was only one project, people came to think of Plan Z and The Phoenix Project as being one and the same.  That's largely my fault, because to be honest, at the time I didn't really take into consideration multiple projects and even I've been guilty of informally referring to The Phoenix Project as just "Plan Z" for the sake of brevity.  But I never intended to convey that The Phoenix Project was the only project that we'd ever have or the only project that we'd ever support.  For that, I apologize.

Hope that helps, and sorry again for the confusion.

Actually, in the facts, "Phoenix City project" acquired the "Plan Z" term for most of us, I think. Whatever you do now. Don't try to correct it, even if it's true.

For me, Plan Z was a temporary name for a great adventure. It's seems more logical and more simple to explain there is a "Plan Y", different in methods but similar in goal to Plan Z. Hosting links and sub-forum add confusion to the existing confusion. When I connected here yesterday, I saw "Heroes and Vilains" link to website :

"Hey they already have a great forum in order to expose features ?! Oh great ! Hum... I don't regognize what is debated in Titan Network forums... And... wait... a forum...  recruiting volunteers too ?... What the hell... "

And I think many others visitors will have the same reaction again and again. With the first deception to see a divided force. I bet on it when I will explain it to french speaking players. I hope that you are right mixing 2 projects with different content in a same term. But it's not readable at all.

I want to add something : Is not it more reasonnable to wait that the Phoenix Project is in a stage more moved forward to envisage another project ?

I interrupt this thread with what I just posted here:  http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6373.msg82912.html#msg82912

[Obnoxiously quoting myself in full from the link posted above]
Side topic!  Apologies for breaking in here and if I'm using the wrong thread.  I am getting to the end of writing my Thank-You's to the many ezines covering City of Heroes and our efforts.  In doing so, I just found and posted to this:  http://www.incgamers.com/2012/11/community-driven-mmo-project-heroes-and-villains-now-underway/

It's my concern that open squabbling and charges of stealing IP and other "drama" will scuttle our efforts to get gamers and fans of superhero comicbooks (or should it be comicbook superheroes?) and seriously undermine our slim chances of TF Hail Mary's success.  In all seriousness, do we need to form a task force for Damage Control?

If you read the comments all the way through if makes us look really bad at a time when we need to be presenting a united and positive front.  Yes, I know we're all still grieving.  I can't count the times tears have leaked out as I read some article or went digging for some pertinent info.  While I can't prevent others from making negative comments (nor would I) I would like it impressed upon the community (Hello, TonyV if you're out there.) that even bereft and grieving, this sort of behavior and posting does NOT serve our cause at all.  I don't want anybody smacked or flamed, but everybody has to understand what is helpful, what is difference of opinion and polite dissent, and what is purely disruptive and undermining.  And that's all the rant I have to say about this.

On a more positive and constructive note--and really in the Other Ideas category--we should reach out additionally not just to gamers but also to fans of the comicbook and superheroes genres.

Quote from: johnrobey on December 03, 2012, 02:14:16 PM
While I can't prevent others from making negative comments (nor would I) I would like it impressed upon the community (Hello, TonyV if you're out there.) that even bereft and grieving, this sort of behavior and posting does NOT serve our cause at all.

I agree, which is why I'd like to reiterate:

Quote from: TonyV on December 02, 2012, 04:18:37 AM
Keep in mind that the enemy of each project is not the other project; it is not having any project at all.

Focus on positively supporting one project or the other or both, not negatively undermining one project or the other.

Quote from: Mister Bison on December 02, 2012, 11:03:17 PM
Well, all. You're Doing It Completely Wrong.

We have a community so large that we can afford to create a game in which *every human* can feel a gameplay similar to CoX, we'll have teams dedicated to invent *new input systems (Augmented Reality helmet & Force Feedback cape)* designed to go with the gameplay. The rules will be *a new set of gaming rules*, called *D609 (better than D20 !)*, the game will afford development of *a new programming language based on brainfuck*, which will run on *a new quantic hardware*, which *with all our crowd funding* will be *distributed freely to gamers in and around the world !*

*cough*

I'll register the domain and open the forum of "Plan µ: Idealists and Megalonaniacs"(sic) soon, keep in touch ;)

Congratulations, you've clearly just discovered a psychoactive substance unknown to medicine, where can I get some ?

I can understand the split. I was much more involved with Plan Z on Titan at its creation, but drifted away for my own reasons. Even then, I could see that Golden Girl had a very specific vision for Plan Z, and was trying very hard to get people to adhere to it. I think it's probably best for someone with such a specific vision to do their own thing, since they won't be able to work very well within a more open project.

That being said, I don't think the publicity is going very well for either group. Articles like this one: www.incgamers.com/2012/11/community-driven-mmo-project-heroes-and-villains-now-underway/ make things look bad, and make it seem as if Golden Girl is jumping on the marketing for her thing at the expense of Titan's. Additionally, the recruitment for Heroes & Villains is disingenuous. I don't know if anyone else received one, but I got an email directing me to the H&V forums. It said nothing of a split, and only said that it was the successor project, go to the website for info, etc. When I went there, I thought to myself "This doesn't look right..." I came to the Titan forums and discovered there had been a split. The email I received seemed to me very much a way to direct people straight to the H&V forums, skipping Titan completely.

Plan Z: The Phoenix Project had pushed back our tentative demo and website release date to let people enjoy the holiday and play in the last week of COH. We felt that it was not fair to our volunteer contributors to demand that they spend their free time working on a demo or website over Thanksgiving and during the last week of City of Heroes. People need some time to mourn and adjust to our community's loss, and we wanted to respect time that before officially releasing publicity materials for The Phoenix Project.

Quote from: TonyV on December 03, 2012, 03:40:44 PM
I agree, which is why I'd like to reiterate:

Focus on positively supporting one project or the other or both, not negatively undermining one project or the other.

This is better than bitter rivalry.  Better, however, would have been for cohesion and cooperation without this division.   

My post on the first page of this thread has been retracted.  Please adjust accordingly.

Quote from: blackjak on December 02, 2012, 02:37:50 AM
Jesus! Who thought we'd have a demo by shutdown? That timeline would be improbable in a true, running game studio! A dedicated staff could maybe have a basic, and I mean basic, trailer or something in the 2 months or so since Plan Z was thought about, but never a simple gaming community. That's absurd!

By "demo" I mean something no more complex than a dude walking around a very simple game world and maybe having one attack.  You may label it absurd but this was the stated goal early on.

Quote from: SithRose on December 03, 2012, 06:32:11 PM
Plan Z: The Phoenix Project had pushed back our tentative demo and website release date to let people enjoy the holiday and play in the last week of COH. We felt that it was not fair to our volunteer contributors to demand that they spend their free time working on a demo or website over Thanksgiving and during the last week of City of Heroes. People need some time to mourn and adjust to our community's loss, and we wanted to respect time that before officially releasing publicity materials for The Phoenix Project.

Not a bad idea at all, but I didn't see this communicated anywhere.  It definitely explains a lot.

Quote from: Mister Bison on December 02, 2012, 11:03:17 PM*a new programming language based on brainfuck*

This is the best thing I have heard ever.  The last time I tried to write a program in brainfuck I had to buy a new computer.  Because I threw mine out a window.  In Burj Khalifa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_khalifa).  After setting it (the computer) on fire.  With my mind.

Quote from: darkgob on December 03, 2012, 11:13:02 PM
My post on the first page of this thread has been retracted.  Please adjust accordingly.
By "demo" I mean something no more complex than a dude walking around a very simple game world and maybe having one attack.  You may label it absurd but this was the stated goal early on.

While did not hit it, we did get a lot further than we would otherwise. It's an old trick, aim beyond your target, so you hit the points you needed, and if you did hit what you aimed at, you're even further ahead.

What we did hit, a working server and the start of the world. Not incredible, but key steps to verifying it was viable. Now my focus is on the demo video, to show these off.

I'm not really sure the "Plan Z" designation does either project any particular good, from a non-partisan perspective. It works as TonyV has pointed out, as an "umbrella" designation for the idea of creating a spiritual successor, but I don't see any particular advantage of either group using it in their own project title, particularly as there are already the "H&V" and "PP" designations, which are much more specific and appropriate.

It reminds me of how the revised 3rd edition of D&D gained the working moniker "3.5" throughout its gestation- which the management of WotC said would not be the final designation of the rules; except that it became so, and I can only imagine how weird that must have looked to any newcomers to the game- "Um, should we start with 3.0 first?" *head scratching*.

As a side note, how cool would it be if- one day- we were able to freely jump our characters between the Heroes and Villains world and the Phoenix Project world? Switching servers, entering into a new city with new characters and storylines to pursue. A real shared-world superhero community. (Ah, to dream.)

Quote from: blackjak on December 02, 2012, 02:37:50 AM
Jesus! Who thought we'd have a demo by shutdown? That timeline would be improbable in a true, running game studio! A dedicated staff could maybe have a basic, and I mean basic, trailer or something in the 2 months or so since Plan Z was thought about, but never a simple gaming community. That's absurd!

Well, blackjak, according to plan, there will be a trailer this week, unless something comes up. :)

Quote from: darkgob on December 03, 2012, 11:13:02 PM
My post on the first page of this thread has been retracted.  Please adjust accordingly.

Darkgob I can't tell you how happy I am to see that. I'm really glad that we're not making people unhappy yet! :)

Quote from: Darkgob
This is the best thing I have heard ever.  The last time I tried to write a program in brainfuck I had to buy a new computer.  Because I threw mine out a window.  In [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_khalifaBurj Khalifa[/url].  After setting it (the computer) on fire.  With my mind.

Gee, that's too bad, because I'd like to program a war game in Brainfuck featuring cute little fluffies fighting it out. And then sell it to a certain company whose name we all curse in our sleep.

Quote from: downix on December 03, 2012, 11:26:03 PM
What we did hit, a working server and the start of the world. Not incredible, but key steps to verifying it was viable. Now my focus is on the demo video, to show these off.

Quite frankly I'm #$@% impressed that we've made it this far in the roughly two months that we've been doing this. The Phoenix Project is not your average attempt at a fan-made game!

(I can't speak for HaV yet since it in all reality is a few days old and GG is just getting the skeleton of her team together, so I'll give it time and wish it luck)

Quote from: jsmill@wans.net on December 03, 2012, 11:26:14 PM
I'm not really sure the "Plan Z" designation does either project any particular good, from a non-partisan perspective. It works as TonyV has pointed out, as an "umbrella" designation for the idea of creating a spiritual successor, but I don't see any particular advantage of either group using it in their own project title, particularly as there are already the "H&V" and "PP" designations, which are much more specific and appropriate.

Plan Z: The Phoenix Project is a working name. Discussion of its real name are still being kicked around. I agree: having happen to it what happened to 3.5 D&D is not what we want. We are a spiritual successor to CoH, a new game, not the last resort plan for saving CoH.

Quote
As a side note, how cool would it be if- one day- we were able to freely jump our characters between the Heroes and Villains world and the Phoenix Project world? Switching servers, entering into a new city with new characters and storylines to pursue. A real shared-world superhero community. (Ah, to dream.)

Not being a member of the tech team for the Phoenix Project, I can't speak for how easy or difficult this might be, but given how Sentinel+ enables extraction of characters from CoH while using its own unique format that can be, from what I understand, legally uploaded into another project, I see no reason why a similar utility couldn't be made for the two Plan Zs. I believe that using Sentinel+ for the Phoenix Project is an idea that's already in the works, in fact. If my not-legal and not-technical understanding is correct, then all that needs to happen is for HaV to do the same.

Look, much as I hesitate to bring the grasp of the real world cultivated over 62 years of living on this mudball into this discussion, but here is a simple fact for all of you.

Some people will not get along with other people.

No matter how badly you want Set A of your friends to get along with Set B of your friends, very often that will never happen.  You can sing Kumbaya and link arms and implore for healing hugs all you want, but all you will do is generate far more ill-will than you will soothe.

Take a deep breath, give them the freedom you demand for yourself, and let them go their separate ways. 

Maybe one half will fragment and scatter to the winds.  Maybe both will.  Maybe neither will, and there will be two games out of it.  Maybe TF Hail Mary will actually work, and we'll get Paragon back and some of them will go to work for CoH2.  But the bottom line here is that especially when you are working with people who are volunteering their time, the more you try squeezing incompatible forces together, the more you waste not only your time, but theirs.

Quote from: chaparralshrub on December 03, 2012, 11:42:48 PM
Well, blackjak, according to plan, there will be a trailer this week, unless something comes up. :)

Does a team schism count as "something?"

Also, how dare you say #$@% on a family-friendly forum!? ;)

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on December 03, 2012, 11:52:17 PM
Some people will not get along with other people.

Would you please refrain from saying things that make me look for a non-existent "like" button? Thanks! ;)

ok all i have an idea if you want i can help get the servers running but you need to make the name of the game different and start a new ip for the game that way ncsoft can sue you and we can all keep the game everyone wins except ncsoft which i dont think many people on these forums including me are happy with them at all anyway

Sorry to have been gone for a while but real life gets in the way sometimes as we all know.

The only thing I have to offer here is to consider the following: There is only one team in the end. Having different ones now is only a breeding ground for inspiration of thought and direction.

I don't know how many of you have taken part in something like this. Maybe a lot of you, maybe not many. The point is that any kind of project to emulate or reconstruct the essence of a game world almost always starts out with several ideas of how to go about it. There is almost never a single avenue to start from. How are you going to know exactly the trumps you are going to hit against with any particular system achieving what you want? Team A hits a dead end. Team B is till going strong but is snagging up on some things. Team A comes in with 'Hey we're kinda screwed at this point but we can get you past that snag - we saw that in a different way'. Team A and B start hitting a wall when they find out about a Team C they never knew about that has a whole system almost complete and working, just not as robust or fleshed out. In the end - it is all the same team that worked their butts off to find the best way.

No matter what, know that the entire system will be started, completely trashed and restarted because the database wasn't quite right or codebase wasn't inclusive enough for the scripters to have enough modular controls for world objects, etc. It is going to take time. LOTS of time. We can't keep nagging at the people working on these projects.

Support whatever you like. I'm going to support all of them the best I can. Trying to split hairs and inadvertently (or downright on purpose) split friendships and cohesion is not the answer. We can all maintain community or choose not to. It is a choice. What? If somehow they stay completely independent of the other and are both wildly successful you don't want more servers with more options and more worlds to explore and share you experiences with each other about?

Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving last month and Merry Christmas if I end up not getting back in here in time.
Best,
Manny
 

Quote from: sorinkon on December 04, 2012, 12:09:22 AM
ok all i have an idea if you want i can help get the servers running but you need to make the name of the game different and start a new ip for the game that way ncsoft can sue you and we can all keep the game everyone wins except ncsoft which i dont think many people on these forums including me are happy with them at all anyway

Actually, no, that is illegal, and at best it can get you a cease and desist order from NCSoft as well as having your IP ban you for life.  At worst it can get you a lawsuit.

Quote from: Felderburg on December 03, 2012, 06:13:44 PM
I can understand the split. I was much more involved with Plan Z on Titan at its creation, but drifted away for my own reasons. Even then, I could see that Golden Girl had a very specific vision for Plan Z, and was trying very hard to get people to adhere to it. I think it's probably best for someone with such a specific vision to do their own thing, since they won't be able to work very well within a more open project.

I don't believe you are trying to insinuate that Some one taking the lead is a bad thing, but I have to say, from my POV, I see it as a good thing.  I am not that well versed on the inner workings of either group, but I would hope that both have one central leading figure rather than trying to do everything by committee.   One chief to organize all the other indians, so to speak, and keep them on track.

Quote from: Felderburg on December 03, 2012, 06:13:44 PM
That being said, I don't think the publicity is going very well for either group. Articles like this one: www.incgamers.com/2012/11/community-driven-mmo-project-heroes-and-villains-now-underway/ make things look bad, and make it seem as if Golden Girl is jumping on the marketing for her thing at the expense of Titan's. Additionally, the recruitment for Heroes & Villains is disingenuous. I don't know if anyone else received one, but I got an email directing me to the H&V forums. It said nothing of a split, and only said that it was the successor project, go to the website for info, etc. When I went there, I thought to myself "This doesn't look right..." I came to the Titan forums and discovered there had been a split. The email I received seemed to me very much a way to direct people straight to the H&V forums, skipping Titan completely.

Well, having looked over things that have been said in this thread, I can see that the publicity probably isn't that good.  I have seen what I believe to be people involved with both teams as well as TonyV try to smooth things over and move on...but it seems that there are a lot of people on the side lines that can't seem to get the hint. (Not saying you are one of them, your timely post simply left the door open for me to comment  :) ) Some people with an axe to grind against one side or the other. Others simply because they cannot believe that people are not doing things exactly as they would like them to.

As to not mentioning Titan.  I do believe TonyV himself has firmly stated that neither of these projects are official Titan Projects. I do not believe that either team will ever try to deny the help they have received, in one form or another, from  Titan, but I do not think it wrong for one, or both (face it, sooner or later it will have to be both) groups to move into their own space and create their own web presence.

Quote from: corvus1970 on December 03, 2012, 11:54:49 PM
Would you please refrain from saying things that make me look for a non-existent "like" button? Thanks! ;)

Ditto to you lol

Not to derail, but Dylan, were you Mon-El on Virtue?

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on December 03, 2012, 11:52:17 PM
the more you try squeezing incompatible forces together, the more you waste not only your time, but theirs.

wow...that sounds like you are channeling your inner Heinlein.   Well said. :)

Quote from: corvus1970 on December 04, 2012, 12:32:15 AM
Not to derail, but Dylan, were you Mon-El on Virtue?

Nope.   @Nebularian    I've just used this avatar over on my own site for so long I feel naked with out it LOL

And the only "El" I have ever played on COH was my last toon created...Kori Dox-El, based on one of my fan-fic characters.

Dylan Clearbrook, The Phoenix Project (working name) has a definite leadership structure with experienced management. Other actions have been taken, or are being taken, for legal and financial sustainability.  Its web site is being rapidly constructed by people experienced in the design and programming of the same. Substantial custom code has been written for the final product and more is on the way. Does this meet your criteria for viability so far?

Quote from: avelworldcreator on December 04, 2012, 12:43:57 AM
Dylan Clearbrook, The Phoenix Project (working name) has a definite leadership structure with experienced management. Other actions have been taken, or are being taken, for legal and financial sustainability.  Its web site is being rapidly constructed by people experienced in the design and programming of the same. Substantial custom code has been written for the final product and more is on the way. Does this meet your criteria for viability so far?

LOL I wasn't griping...just stating my ignorance of how the inner workings of either group are arranged. And I am pleased to hear about the web site.  As I have stated here and elsewhere, I support BOTH efforts.

But actually, it is comforting to know that the Phoenix Project has a definite leadership structure and that the project is not being micro-managed by committee.  That was my fear when talk of Plan Z first began.   Knowing that there is a concrete decision making process that does not rely solely on politicking does wonders to raise my hopes :)

Rather than edit my last post, I just toss this in a new one.

I have neither the skills nor the funds to be helpful to either team.  My thoughts are only my opinions. I am extremely grateful to those that are able to put their time, their money, and their skills to use on these projects and when it gets down to brass tacks, I would not dream of Arm-chair quarterbacking on how and why they do things other than mere speculation.

Actually I was soliciting opinion. You gave a very considered and objective analysis earlier and it seemed wise to seek more of the same. Someone has to play the games too. :)

Avelworldcreator just said what I was going to say: the Phoenix Project, or Heroes and Villains for that matter, do need players. Some things that players want or suggest aren't feasible for any number of possible reasons. Some are. This means that just because a player asks for it doesn't mean that s/he will get it. Nonetheless, if a player does honestly want something, the developers have every reason to take the request seriously.

And some problems don't even reveal themselves until a game is being actively played.

Yeah, I pretty much am hoping that the game doesn't take long enough for me to actually learn enough programming to be useful, but I'll be there with bells on for testing. I have yet to come across something I can't break. :)

Quote from: chaparralshrub on December 03, 2012, 11:42:48 PMNot being a member of the tech team for the Phoenix Project, I can't speak for how easy or difficult this might be, but given how Sentinel+ enables extraction of characters from CoH while using its own unique format that can be, from what I understand, legally uploaded into another project, I see no reason why a similar utility couldn't be made for the two Plan Zs. I believe that using Sentinel+ for the Phoenix Project is an idea that's already in the works, in fact. If my not-legal and not-technical understanding is correct, then all that needs to happen is for HaV to do the same.

See, now this would be awesome. How great would it be to be able to use the same character information and move between games like that? To have even different alternative world sort-of games in the "Hero Network"? Sci-Fi World? Lost World? Etc.

(And I realize I'm  moving way off-topic now. Sorry!)

Quote from: avelworldcreator on December 04, 2012, 02:14:11 AM
Actually I was soliciting opinion. You gave a very considered and objective analysis earlier and it seemed wise to seek more of the same. Someone has to play the games too. :)

Weeeellllll as a player (and remember, you opened this can of worms...I quoted you for proof LOL) I can only say this at this time.  I was hyped when COH first came out....until I learned that it was online only.  I swore I would never pay for a game that I could not play offline as well.  I stuck to that until I stupidly decided to take advantage of a trial for coh....I was hooked.  COH was the only  fully online game that I have ever paid for....and the way NCSoft just screwed us has made me go back to that stand.  When (notice I say WHEN, not IF.  I have confidence in all of you working on both projects) either of these projects goes live, I hope they do take offline content into account.  I remember a game I played offline that could be played online as well.  The first Never Winter Nights, I think.  I don't think you could take your offline characters online...which was a good thing.  The offline content for either of these projects could be extremely limited (It would have to be, I suppose) but it would be something.  More than we have left of COH except for memories and hopes.

I would be more than willing to support an online game by subscribing....if I could also play a bit offline as well.

So....do you know if either Team is considering things from that aspect?

Quote from: jsmill@wans.net on December 04, 2012, 03:22:02 AM
See, now this would be awesome. How great would it be to be able to use the same character information and move between games like that? To have even different alternative world sort-of games in the "Hero Network"? Sci-Fi World? Lost World? Etc.

(And I realize I'm  moving way off-topic now. Sorry!)

Exactly....I think that would be a wonderful idea.   COH had its Blue, Red, and Gold sides.....so can Plan Z!

As cool as a virtual GURPS or the Hero System would be...  Damn!  You know, I know enough to know what I don't know, and I know that there is no way that this is within the scope of what the current team can do any time soon, but it may be something that can be added on. It would be friggin' awesome, though!

Quote from: Dylan Clearbrook on December 04, 2012, 03:24:26 AM
Weeeellllll as a player (and remember, you opened this can of worms...I quoted you for proof LOL) I can only say this at this time.  I was hyped when COH first came out....until I learned that it was online only.  I swore I would never pay for a game that I could not play offline as well.  I stuck to that until I stupidly decided to take advantage of a trial for coh....I was hooked.  COH was the only  fully online game that I have ever paid for....and the way NCSoft just screwed us has made me go back to that stand.  When (notice I say WHEN, not IF.  I have confidence in all of you working on both projects) either of these projects goes live, I hope they do take offline content into account.  I remember a game I played offline that could be played online as well.  The first Never Winter Nights, I think.  I don't think you could take your offline characters online...which was a good thing.  The offline content for either of these projects could be extremely limited (It would have to be, I suppose) but it would be something.  More than we have left of COH except for memories and hopes.

I would be more than willing to support an online game by subscribing....if I could also play a bit offline as well.

So....do you know if either Team is considering things from that aspect?

I don't know about H&V, but it is on the table along with private/small group options, if you wanted to just play with your friends, for PP.

I'm with you here.

I know it's just my 2 cents, and that's about all I have to offer to the effort anyway,  but as much as I think everyone would like to see perfect unity and direction in a "plan z", there are way too many "passionate and talented" folks at work here  - and on their own dime - for that to be a realistic expectation.  From an awful lot of experience, passion and talent are often closely associated with ego, and volunteer projects are limited by the time constraints and cooperative motivation of each volunteer.  In other words, if they don't feel like cooperating, or if egos get bruised in the sometimes violent creative process, (violence seen in the loss/destruction of MY ideas in the attempt to meld them with others'), there is little a manager can really do to change that.   An amicable separation is probably the best thing that could happen,  if one side or the other hits an insurmountable roadblock, perhaps lessons can be learned from the other side.  Even if one utterly fails, it may provide some wisdom, and possibly another path, for the whole.

There are, of course, downsides, amply discussed already.  These can be minimized by each of us simply resisting the urge to criticize what was inevitable & supporting whichever efforts you are able,  and feel best suited for.

You can comment here all you want about the titan's position in this, but you should take all discussion of "TPP & H&V" here (or at least read it):

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6724.0.html (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6724.0.html)

What Mr. Bison seems to be doing is hitting all of the (several) threads caught up in this one topic, and directing them to a new thread that is asking us to redirect our focus on the design goal differences behind the split, rather than focusing on the personalities involved.

And it's a damn good idea, Mr. Bison. I hope people take you up on it. The only thing that's going to matter in the end is design (and production) goals, and people are going to want to know what goals they want to get behind and support or participate in. Focusing on the personality politics will not bring us the game(s) we want to play, so that's going to get old pretty fast, like yesterday, if people keep talking about it.

Quote from: Dylan Clearbrook on December 04, 2012, 03:24:26 AM
Weeeellllll as a player (and remember, you opened this can of worms...I quoted you for proof LOL) I can only say this at this time.  I was hyped when COH first came out....until I learned that it was online only.  I swore I would never pay for a game that I could not play offline as well.  I stuck to that until I stupidly decided to take advantage of a trial for coh....I was hooked.  COH was the only  fully online game that I have ever paid for....and the way NCSoft just screwed us has made me go back to that stand.  When (notice I say WHEN, not IF.  I have confidence in all of you working on both projects) either of these projects goes live, I hope they do take offline content into account.  I remember a game I played offline that could be played online as well.  The first Never Winter Nights, I think.  I don't think you could take your offline characters online...which was a good thing.  The offline content for either of these projects could be extremely limited (It would have to be, I suppose) but it would be something.  More than we have left of COH except for memories and hopes.

I would be more than willing to support an online game by subscribing....if I could also play a bit offline as well.

So....do you know if either Team is considering things from that aspect?

NWN1 servers are still around, too. NWN1 is a very versatile game, and still attracts new players. People will buy it off of GOG to play on the various servers. Another solid game like CoH that proves you don't need to be the bestest and most up to date to still have a decent following.

Open Source projects nearly always have infights between the different visions and persons with a "my way or the highway" attitude seem to be especially frequent. It's why the internet is littered with failed Open Source projects and the community is so fragmented. The few exceptions either have a great leader or a company backing them.

I do not expect either project to be successful, the odds are against it. I will still try to contribute, but more for the fun of learning and being busy creatively.

Quote from: RogerWilco on December 04, 2012, 03:27:42 PM
Open Source projects nearly always have infights between the different visions and persons with a "my way or the highway" attitude seem to be especially frequent. It's why the internet is littered with failed Open Source projects and the community is so fragmented. The few exceptions either have a great leader or a company backing them.

I do not expect either project to be successful, the odds are against it. I will still try to contribute, but more for the fun of learning and being busy creatively.

The Phoenix Project DOES have a company backing them. And there is great leadership. The balance of the group is currently stable and working well together. There will be further official announcements indicating just how stable it is.

Quote from: dwturducken on December 04, 2012, 03:33:57 AM
As cool as a virtual GURPS or the Hero System would be...  Damn!  You know, I know enough to know what I don't know, and I know that there is no way that this is within the scope of what the current team can do any time soon, but it may be something that can be added on. It would be friggin' awesome, though!

The problem you run into with those systems is that a computer is not as flexible in tailoring the encounter to the specific character's strengths and weaknesses like a living breathing person. The GM in a PnP game can modify things on the fly to account for jonny-one-shot and his super awesome energy blast. But still make the other less "specialized" characters feel useful.

It would be awesome though. I agree.

They could have added a little more free-form power choices in CoH if they had altered the ATs a little.
Create a baseline AT (can even call it a "man" AT) then add inherants to that based on the AT the player chooses.
Tanks would get +MaxHP, +DR, -Damage, Gauntlet.
Scrappers could get +Def, +Max HP (less than tanks), +Crits,
Blasters could get +Damage, +Damage, +Acc.
Controllers could get +Mez, maybe some other stuff.
Defenders could get +Buff/DeBuff, stuff like that.

Then you can open up ranged attacks for scrappers and Tanks, melee attacks for Controllers, Defenders, and Blasters.
Plus, it would be easier to balance the power-sets because all the ATs would have access to the same Moonbeam, Bonesmash, and Nova.
Additionally, it would be easier to balance the ATs since all you would have to do is tweak the inherants.

If I recall correctly, this was all discussed back in issue 8 or 9 on the CoH Forums. :)

Just to pipe in: There will ALWAYS be those wanting to control or tailor make to their ideas, what everyone should know by now is Not Everyone will be happy with every detail or direction.

Is not a bad thing, it's normal life, we just need to keep it together as the group we are: we loved the game and our friends playing it...... and maybe some of their friends too lol

We have a goal: we love the game, tried to save it and lost but hey we're still here and want to bring that feeling of the game back to team with our friends and have the fun we had there.

I think their are Many smart ppl here that can bring this off if they work together and ego is beaten down with an emote bat to give us the feel of CoH again, hell I would not care is the alts looked like south park if we got our game back in one form or other.

You have my support in this, I hope to see one or both projects see service.

Tom Ashley, USN Retired & DAV (Athalwolf)

Quote from: dwturducken on December 04, 2012, 03:33:57 AM
As cool as a virtual GURPS or the Hero System would be...  Damn!  You know, I know enough to know what I don't know, and I know that there is no way that this is within the scope of what the current team can do any time soon, but it may be something that can be added on. It would be friggin' awesome, though!

Years ago, when my friends and I used to play this custom tabletop RPG, we actually bought a software package that was supposed to be used for taking a tabletop RPG and playing it over the Internet. The idea was, it was hard to get people who were scattered everywhere to all get together in the same room, so the software would let the GM and players translate a game into a digital form (with maps, character sheets, etc.) and play it online. All the players would run one program, while the GM ran another, all connecting to a server to tie them together. Theoretically, the software was flexible enough to allow just about any pen-and-paper RPG to be translated into online gameplay.

Unfortunately, the software proved to be somewhat cumbersome to use, was kind of buggy, and we never did get around to the hard work of fully translating our game into its system (typing text, scanning maps, etc.). More to the point, though, was the fact that the problem we were having was not so much that we couldn't get everybody physically together in one place, but that we also couldn't all play on the same days and times. So we ultimately gave up. And the company that released the software went out of business long ago.

Still, the idea of having an online means to play tabletop-style RPGs with friends does continue to have some appeal.\

TargetOne

That was one of the things about CoH, for my Friday night group.  We had all played Champions, though not all together at once, and this was as close as we thought was possible in a MMORPG. This was a damnsight closer than the MMO that bears its name, anyway.

The 6th Edition Hero System rules are supposed to allow you to "seemlessly" take your CO character PnP and back. No idea how the back would work, but it sure sounds nice. Hero System has multiple genres, so does that mean STO uses the same mechanics? :)

(I doubt it, but it'd be the same kind of thing.)