Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7323006 times)

brothermutant

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14000 on: January 08, 2015, 02:19:46 AM »
Wow. That's a lot of posts.

Aggelakis

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14001 on: January 08, 2015, 02:45:14 AM »
Wow. That's a lot of posts.
*points at your name by your post* Lookie!

(I also went through and gave people previous 1k milestones - there were a couple with more than one milestone, in which case I left them with the most recent milestone.)
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Cailyn Alaynn

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14002 on: January 08, 2015, 03:47:10 AM »
-claps- Woot! Party!
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Ankhammon

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14003 on: January 08, 2015, 04:33:50 AM »
I think it's only "mandatory" (in quotes because: what is ever mandatory in a game you're playing for fun?*) if you're like Harpospoke above, and want to get your 50s back ASAP. Which is an interesting viewpoint. I mean, it makes sense, but since I only ever got 3 50s, and had more fun with the storylines than trying real hard to get to 50 or get fully slotted or what have you (because it would have driven me crazy) I absolutely will not farm. I'll stroll through and take my time to get to 50+. I understand the mentality, and honestly many of my character concepts rely on the character actually being a full hero, not a level 5 "I only have three powers" sort of guy, so getting to a decent level is important for concept (and game enjoyment to a certain extent), but I just can't deal with farming for the sake of farming.


*I almost left the typo "a game you're playing for fin" in because I think playing a game for a dude named Fin or for actual fins might be funny somehow.

Don't get me wrong, I only meant mandatory for me. I am really itching to get 2 of my characters IO'd out and then Incarnated. I've been thinking about both for a long time now and I want to prove to myself that they can be as good as I think they can be.
Both are defenders and I know teams will absolutely love them (Time/Ice and Naff/DP).

And I would probably only really do some farming after I spent some serious time with the general leveling up approach.

I think both can be competent farmers in the high levels... ain't I strange. :)
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14004 on: January 08, 2015, 05:26:41 AM »
And I would probably only really do some farming after I spent some serious time with the general leveling up approach.
I had a basic rule about leveling any alt from one to 50 on its own merits.  Once I hit 50, I then felt perfectly comfortable twinking the character with enough enhancements to make her teeth glow.  I tend to do that with any MMO I play, and would likely do that with any revived CoH.

Of course, that doesn't *preclude* using every farming trick at my disposal so that I already have all the enhancements or influence available for an alt *when* it hits 50.  As the great sage Hannibal Smith said: "get in the plane, BA."  Possibly more relevant: "I love it when a plan comes together."

Noyjitat

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14005 on: January 08, 2015, 05:51:54 AM »
I had a basic rule about leveling any alt from one to 50 on its own merits.  Once I hit 50, I then felt perfectly comfortable twinking the character with enough enhancements to make her teeth glow.  I tend to do that with any MMO I play, and would likely do that with any revived CoH.

Of course, that doesn't *preclude* using every farming trick at my disposal so that I already have all the enhancements or influence available for an alt *when* it hits 50.  As the great sage Hannibal Smith said: "get in the plane, BA."  Possibly more relevant: "I love it when a plan comes together."

After Face uses Mesmerize on BA to get him in said plane causing him to awake in a world of confusion, activating rage and hitting the nearest baddie with haymaker. Hmm sounds like an interesting scene to recreate in CoX.

Tubbius

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14006 on: January 08, 2015, 05:59:46 AM »
This thread gets more and more fun.  :)

Vee

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14007 on: January 08, 2015, 06:18:24 AM »
After Face uses Mesmerize on BA to get him in said plane causing him to awake in a world of confusion, activating rage and hitting the nearest baddie with haymaker. Hmm sounds like an interesting scene to recreate in CoX.

Drugged milk blast set for APR? Just sayin'.

Sinistar

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14008 on: January 08, 2015, 06:57:14 AM »
After Face uses Mesmerize on BA to get him in said plane causing him to awake in a world of confusion, activating rage and hitting the nearest baddie with haymaker. Hmm sounds like an interesting scene to recreate in CoX.

I like that.  Once I saw a Thug MM named Ted Healy and his goons were all named after the three Stooges.

Be nice to have a Three Stooges power set complete with pie throwing and eye pokes
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Minotaur

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14009 on: January 08, 2015, 08:45:16 AM »
I used clawls/wp scrap and i think my best time x1 was 36 minutes. (that was some seriously lucky mission placement though. the order of that one made a huge difference - if the skyway mishes got split up you were looking at an extra 5 mins independently of how fast you killed.) when it comes back i'm remaking that character as a budget blowing exemping widow for merit whoar soloing of posi/syn/yin/silvery mantits. really though if you could do it in an hour without an IOd build you were already ahead of the game. mine was purped to the nines for heavy spin recharge.

I pegged the toon at level 18 with Yin-Os and level 21 SOs to reduce the effect exemping had on it. Only IO in the build was a -KB IIRC.

Joshex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14010 on: January 08, 2015, 12:30:58 PM »
Question that's bugging me, why did CoX have 2 Aiming statistics? ToHit and Accuracy (one being an additive percent and one being a multiplier) I mean I get the whole "you have to have something higher than 1 to multiply by" factor but why not just leave it at the additive percent? are there any fans of 2 aiming statistics? how adamant are you about them and why?
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

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AmberOfDzu

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14011 on: January 08, 2015, 01:54:56 PM »
Ninja Run + Sprint + Quickness + 5x Gift of the Ancients Run Speed IO's. I ran that on my Claws/SR Scrapper.
I did something very similar; iirc my claws/SR character could run at ~90mph; the cap was 92.5. Good times.  :)

Ironwolf

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14012 on: January 08, 2015, 02:29:32 PM »
What did you use ? took me about an hour with my fire/nrg blaster although I wasn't IOd.
Let's just say confusion makes vahz go boom.

Ankhammon

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14013 on: January 08, 2015, 03:15:40 PM »
Let's just say confusion makes vahz go boom.

And outside of confusing an AV/EB surrounded by minions that might have been the most visually satisfying use for Confuse. :)
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

Super Firebug

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14014 on: January 08, 2015, 05:08:43 PM »
Question that's bugging me, why did CoX have 2 Aiming statistics? ToHit and Accuracy (one being an additive percent and one being a multiplier) I mean I get the whole "you have to have something higher than 1 to multiply by" factor but why not just leave it at the additive percent? are there any fans of 2 aiming statistics? how adamant are you about them and why?

An illustration of the difference between ToHit and Accuracy (as I understand it) is the example of a rifleman. ToHit was along the lines of how skilled a marksman you are (proficiency with any weapon), and Accuracy was how accurate and finely-tuned your rifle was. So, ToHit affected all of your attacks, and Accuracy affected just the attack that it was slotted in. CO has something similar in R&A points. You can, for instance, use them to rank up one attack's damage, or use them to rank up a buff that'll increase the damage of all attacks.

A similar potentially-confusing pairing in CoX was Resist Damage and Defense. Resist Damage was like Superman's bullet-proof skin - bullets can't hurt him - while Defense was like Spider-Man's agility and spider-sense - bullets could hurt him, but only if they can hit him.
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Felderburg

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14015 on: January 08, 2015, 05:47:02 PM »
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

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Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14016 on: January 08, 2015, 06:35:59 PM »
Question that's bugging me, why did CoX have 2 Aiming statistics? ToHit and Accuracy (one being an additive percent and one being a multiplier) I mean I get the whole "you have to have something higher than 1 to multiply by" factor but why not just leave it at the additive percent? are there any fans of 2 aiming statistics? how adamant are you about them and why?

Amplifying Super Firebug's post:

Everything in CoH had a base chance to hit value, which was that entity's base chance to hit a target by default (for players, this was 75%).  The target's Defense subtracted from that, so it was logical that attackers be given a way to increase that; thus, tohit buffs.

These apply to all attacks.  But what if you want to make an individual attack more accurate (likely to hit) than the average attack for a given attacker?  Hypothetically speaking, you could have designed City of Heroes with a "tohit bonus" on attacks that would apply only to that attack, but the designers decided instead that they wanted this effect to be proportional: this attack hits twice as often on average, so its overall effect is to be a 2x multiplier.  Thus: accuracy buffs.

Its pretty much a straight-forward exercise to realize that there needed to be two kinds of accuracy: one that buffs the entire player, and one that buffs an individual attack, to account for more accurate attackers and more accurate attacks.  Why they work differently mathematically is due to what their intent was: player attacker buffs were intended to be the opposite of target defense buffs.  Thus, as defense subtracted, tohit buffs added.  Attack multiplier buffs were intended to increase the chance to hit by a ratio, thus they are multiplicative.  Two different design goals, two different mechanisms and math to achieve them.

Now, if you only want one aiming buff, the question is not "why not both additive" but rather "why not both multiplicative?"  See, the original designers did have a moment of clarity when they realized that in different situations they wanted different behavior, but they primarily thought about it in terms of the player being the attacker and the NPCs being the target.  If they had thought about it the other way around, they would have realized that additive tohit buffs make it incredibly difficult to balance how player defense powers work.  Small magnitude defense powers would be practically worthless when "accuracy" buffs were in play in any amounts, and defense-oriented sets (Ice, SR) would be essentially impossible to make work in reasonable fashion, because of the disproportionate effect of additive tohit buffs (this is what the Issue 7 critter accuracy changes were explicitly designed to address).

The one you *need* is the multiplicative one.  Without it, you can't reasonably have defense as a player skill except as a toy feature.  The one you don't need, but is logical to have, is the additive one: something that acts as the inverse of defense.

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14017 on: January 08, 2015, 07:30:59 PM »
Amplifying Super Firebug's post:

Everything in CoH had a base chance to hit value, which was that entity's base chance to hit a target by default (for players, this was 75%).  The target's Defense subtracted from that, so it was logical that attackers be given a way to increase that; thus, tohit buffs.

These apply to all attacks.  But what if you want to make an individual attack more accurate (likely to hit) than the average attack for a given attacker?  Hypothetically speaking, you could have designed City of Heroes with a "tohit bonus" on attacks that would apply only to that attack, but the designers decided instead that they wanted this effect to be proportional: this attack hits twice as often on average, so its overall effect is to be a 2x multiplier.  Thus: accuracy buffs.

Its pretty much a straight-forward exercise to realize that there needed to be two kinds of accuracy: one that buffs the entire player, and one that buffs an individual attack, to account for more accurate attackers and more accurate attacks.  Why they work differently mathematically is due to what their intent was: player attacker buffs were intended to be the opposite of target defense buffs.  Thus, as defense subtracted, tohit buffs added.  Attack multiplier buffs were intended to increase the chance to hit by a ratio, thus they are multiplicative.  Two different design goals, two different mechanisms and math to achieve them.

Now, if you only want one aiming buff, the question is not "why not both additive" but rather "why not both multiplicative?"  See, the original designers did have a moment of clarity when they realized that in different situations they wanted different behavior, but they primarily thought about it in terms of the player being the attacker and the NPCs being the target.  If they had thought about it the other way around, they would have realized that additive tohit buffs make it incredibly difficult to balance how player defense powers work.  Small magnitude defense powers would be practically worthless when "accuracy" buffs were in play in any amounts, and defense-oriented sets (Ice, SR) would be essentially impossible to make work in reasonable fashion, because of the disproportionate effect of additive tohit buffs (this is what the Issue 7 critter accuracy changes were explicitly designed to address).

The one you *need* is the multiplicative one.  Without it, you can't reasonably have defense as a player skill except as a toy feature.  The one you don't need, but is logical to have, is the additive one: something that acts as the inverse of defense.

Indeed, I still missed against defensive enemies if I had just a ton of accuracy.  So I very frequently took leadership: tactics specifically to remedy that, and also to ensure extremely high luckless accuracy against any caliber enemy.  Luck was often an enemy of mine, so it was essential for me to increase both my to-hit and my accuracy for me to do well, as I needed at the very least consistency from my attacks for a good number of my characters to work.  This was especially true of my kineticists and my controllers.  I did not take stamina on my kineticist, I relied entirely on transference.  So having an end chance to hit of 130% from having 95% to-hit AND a lot of extra accuracy from IOs was essential to me.  Even then I carried a few blues.

The blues were essential so I could hit transference right away after a fulcrum shifted tier 9 nuke, and immedietly take my other defensive measures(usually phase shift).  This was done for both speed and safety.  For controllers, well, nothing could be more infuriating than to see a flashfire or cinders miss everything, or a wormhole connect with everything but the few sappers in that group of malta and then losing all my end.  I had rotten luck in game with the hit roles and I'd see the worst bullshit happen, so extreme accuracy ratings were critical.  Especially for purple con enemies.

Edit: Looking at the rest of your post again, I think I can see why the game worked the way it did.  You had tons of force multipliers, rather than force additives.  Which is why buffs and debuffs were so powerful in the game, if they were all just force additives then we'd have seen nothing but defenders healing and a sore lack of any variety of team tactics.  Everything in the game was a multiplier effect, more or less, which ensured that the powers effects would actually have an impact on things.  I think the other reason it worked was because it was character stats that were multipliers, and the effects merely affected them.  It wasn't like CO where every single effect was entirely on it's own math, which resulted in broken things like 20,000 damage/tic assault rifle or personal force fields taking 100% damage regardless of resistance/dodge/avoidance.  City of heroes kept things on a single chart, which allowed the game to not only make buffs and debuffs very powerful but also retain it's balance in a way that was as innovative as it was even to this day.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 07:39:36 PM by LaughingAlex »
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Minotaur

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14018 on: January 08, 2015, 08:44:31 PM »
And outside of confusing an AV/EB surrounded by minions that might have been the most visually satisfying use for Confuse. :)

Most satisfying use of confusion ever has to be having a stalker shot by his own heavy in RV.

ivanhedgehog

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14019 on: January 08, 2015, 08:47:33 PM »
And outside of confusing an AV/EB surrounded by minions that might have been the most visually satisfying use for Confuse. :)

we did an all Ill ITF. Imperious killed his own nictus