Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7291367 times)

LadyVamp

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25820 on: September 20, 2016, 01:19:51 PM »
You mean Lady Vamp.

But in any event there's no word starting with I or any other letter I'm aware of that'd make using someone's name in an example to make one point the equivalent of defending said person's arguments on other points.

Actually, I was referring to the following statement said by Arcana herself, "If and when it happens, I'd hire an attorney.  And then probably lose and fold up shop."

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LadyVamp

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25821 on: September 20, 2016, 01:34:04 PM »
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 02:02:11 PM by LadyVamp »
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LadyVamp

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25822 on: September 20, 2016, 01:59:22 PM »
There is one big difference between your personal experience, and the scenario that was being discussed, unless your father's whole business was making stickers.  The scenario that was being discussed, revolved around a company who had a potentially infringing product as its primary business/product.  In your father's case, a cease and desist simply meant replacing the design with something else.  If you are making a game as the main product of your company, and that game is found to be infringing, there is a good chance that you will be out of business.  Either because you are unable to change the game enough to satisfy the demands of the C&D, or because making those changes would turn your product into something other than what your customers had signed up for.  Since complying with the C&D would essentially put you out of business, it is possible that you might fight back, at which time the other company may decide it is worth the money to sue you into oblivion.  They don't have to actually follow through with the suit.  The threat of it against a much smaller company is likely to force capitulation.  If you didn't fold, the larger company may not have any real downside.  Yes it is expensive, but unless they think their claim is tenuous, in the end they win, and the court costs are likely going to be born by the smaller company.


On the other hand, I have zero experience in any kind of law.  There are probably nuances that I have no clue about.  It just seems that you are comparing two completely different scenarios and expecting the results to be equivalent.  I know in the realm of law, sometimes things are very counter-intuitive, and there are all kinds of loopholes, and some of the precedents can seem pretty out there to the uninitiated, such as myself.

Granted the sticker wasn't the core business item but the potential for the company destroying lawsuit was always possible.  I'm not a lawyer either and was just a kid at the time to boot.  I was actually using it as an example of such an interaction.  My father's company actually engaged in a number of such actions including one where someone tried to claim the company name was theirs, the design of the mobile TV antenna was copied (his best selling product at the time), the a fore mentioned sticker that was too similar to the corvette logo, the original name of the mobile TV antenna, and the rename of the same antenna.  Those I know about.  I would not be surprised of others.  I don't know the details of the copied "my" product design C&D and the product rename from the original name is like the sticker one.  And I know he's gone after other companies for the very same things.

Simply put, if you are a holder of a patent, a TM, or a copyright, you must take legal action to defend your claim.  If you do not, you automatically and forever surrender the protections they grant you.  Others can claim you abandoned it and can move to invalidate your protections.
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MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25823 on: September 20, 2016, 03:15:38 PM »
You're applying the government credo of being able to handle anything that comes in no matter how unlikely it might be.  If the business world applied the same belief to their projects, nothing would ever get done.  What needs to happen is a realistic risk assessment.  Is your call-out a risk?  Yes it is.  So now we would need to look into the likelihood of it happening.  There seems to be two camps here.  One camp thinks it could happen but rates its likelihood from low to very low.  The other camp believes it is highly likely to happen.

So here's my task to everyone (including myself) participating in this discussion.  Let's quit talking about how likely it is to happen.  The call-out has been made, and we do agree that it can happen at least.  So let's talk mitigation strategies.

We actual saw the business world not apply this logic where the rate of failure or risk would be low. The end result was the 2008 financial meltdown. Honestly I don't know in that case what was worse, if that they didn't calculate people who where considered sub prime would default of their obligations, or if they did and they knew the financial sector was so engrained in all other industries, they were "too big to fail" so they can privatize profits while socializing the risk. That was not a carrier being blown up or a Carrier Strike Group getting nuked, that was the entire 3rd fleet being attacked. Always be prepared for the worse case scenario especially if it is shown to happen in greater frequency in the past.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 03:35:33 PM by MM3squints »

Twisted Toon

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25824 on: September 20, 2016, 07:08:10 PM »
We actual saw the business world not apply this logic where the rate of failure or risk would be low. The end result was the 2008 financial meltdown. Honestly I don't know in that case what was worse, if that they didn't calculate people who where considered sub prime would default of their obligations, or if they did and they knew the financial sector was so engrained in all other industries, they were "too big to fail" so they can privatize profits while socializing the risk. That was not a carrier being blown up or a Carrier Strike Group getting nuked, that was the entire 3rd fleet being attacked. Always be prepared for the worse case scenario especially if it is shown to happen in greater frequency in the past.

Wasn't the government involved in that somehow, more than just Freddy Mac and Fanny May?
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LadyVamp

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25825 on: September 20, 2016, 07:24:56 PM »
We actual saw the business world not apply this logic where the rate of failure or risk would be low. The end result was the 2008 financial meltdown. Honestly I don't know in that case what was worse, if that they didn't calculate people who where considered sub prime would default of their obligations, or if they did and they knew the financial sector was so engrained in all other industries, they were "too big to fail" so they can privatize profits while socializing the risk. That was not a carrier being blown up or a Carrier Strike Group getting nuked, that was the entire 3rd fleet being attacked. Always be prepared for the worse case scenario especially if it is shown to happen in greater frequency in the past.

Sorry for the length of this post but as an investor, I know a fair amount about the housing crisis:

The 2008 financial meltdown wasn't due to businesses not applying risk assessment.  It was due to crony capitalism.  It all started with two banks that wanted to merge.  One an investment bank.  The other a savings bank.  Such mergers were illegal due to the Glass-Steagall Act.  At the time, Clinton was trying to get the Affordable Housing Act passed.  A rider was attached that would repeal Glass-Steagal.

Glass-Steagall was passed in 1933 as the Banking Act of 1933.  There is another bill in 1932 which is also called the Glass-Steagall act.  Glass-Steagall limited securities, activities and affiliations within commercial banks and securites firms.  Savings banks can get FDIC protection while investment banks cannot.  The merger was between Citibank and Salomon Smith Barney.  With the removal of Glass-Steagall, commercial banks could now get the safety net of FDIC insurance and put all of us tax payers on the hook for their malinvestments.

Shortly after the Affordable Housing Act was passed, Attorney General Janet Reno threatened to prosecute anyone who violated the Affordable Housing Act.  This forced the banking institutions to lend to people who should not have received the loans.

Now this created or inflated several bubbles in our economy.

The real estate (aka housing) bubble
The private consumption debt bubble
The public (aka gov) consumption debt bubble
The stock market bubble
The dollar bubble
The trade deficit bubble

Each of them feeding off of one another.  The real estate, private consumption debt, and stock market bubbles have popped.  What made them especially nasty was the loans that the lending institutions made would then sell them off to investment houses who would then package them into investment products and sell them on the stock market.  They also did the same for the credit card debt and heloc (home equity line of credit) loans.  This poured money into lending institutions to keep the party going.   As long as everyone with debt was making payments, the party continues.  Of course, most of the loans were ARMs (adjustable rate mortgages) which start with a low rate to get the payments down.  ARMS always reset and these did.  Those resets made the loan payments too steep for many.  Add to that a general slowdown in the economy.

The actual crash started much earlier.  I worked in a power industry at the time.  We saw the demand for new power plants drop in 2004-2005 time frame.  By 2006, there was literally no demand for new power plants.  Some believe the beginning of the crash started in 1998 with the effects of NAFTA beginning to be felt.

If you are really interested in any of this, grab a copy of aftershock by David Wiedemer, Robert Wiedemer and Cindy Spitzer.  They better explain the bubbles and what has happened and what is yet to come.
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LadyVamp

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25826 on: September 20, 2016, 07:26:05 PM »
Wasn't the government involved in that somehow, more than just Freddy Mac and Fanny May?

Indeed they were.  See my post above.  While I don't mention them specifically, they were two of the larger (maybe largest) lending institutions.
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MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25827 on: September 20, 2016, 07:29:54 PM »
Wasn't the government involved in that somehow, more than just Freddy Mac and Fanny May?

Most definitely with dissolving of Glass-Steagall, Alan Greenspan permitting sub-prime lending to happen, financial deregulation, etc. The gov was involved by enabling the climate for the 2008 meltdown to happen. There is so much to write about this topic because this case study was broken down thoroughly when I was going for my MBA. The most haunting thing I remember seeing was the aftermath of the Crisis where my parents live in the San Bernardino County and when you drive up a cul-de-sac, 1 in every 3 house had foreclosure sign and 1/2 built house just sitting there for years to come.

MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25828 on: September 20, 2016, 08:03:14 PM »
The actual crash started much earlier.  I worked in a power industry at the time.  We saw the demand for new power plants drop in 2004-2005 time frame.  By 2006, there was literally no demand for new power plants.  Some believe the beginning of the crash started in 1998 with the effects of NAFTA beginning to be felt.

Was it that rough to work in the power industry after Enron? I only read case studies, but never met anyone who worked in the industry during that time period.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25829 on: September 20, 2016, 10:09:13 PM »
The 2008 financial meltdown wasn't due to businesses not applying risk assessment.  It was due to crony capitalism.

This is a bit of an oversimplification, but more importantly it arbitrarily picks causation.  If I shoot you and  that causes you to fall into traffic and get hit by a car, you could argue that you were killed by traffic, but I wouldn't agree that was the reasonable proximate cause.  Furthermore, if you were to argue that the cause of death was my acquisition of a gun permit, that would also not really properly fix causation.  My decision to shoot you was the proximate cause.

The real estate bubble had a lot of causes, but it wasn't even the proximate cause of the financial crisis.  First, I don't buy the argument that the Affiordable Housing Act "forced" banks to lend to non-credit worthy customers.  That's just plain false.  The banks did not need to be incentivized by the government to lend money because they were already being incentivized by the new markets for mortgage securitization.  There exists no law that required banks to reduce their credit requirements, much less totally eliminate them which is basically what they did.  They were offering loans with ludicrous terms that defied all financial logic.

But even that didn't spark the financial crisis.  If the banks made stupid loans then all that would ordinarily mean was that they would then suffer the losses due to their own stupidity.  The real problem was that the banks were not (and these days still often don't) keeping those loans on their own books.  They were securitizing them.  By creating financial securities that were backed by mortgages they could in effect sell off the risk of those loans.  The banks could make a bunch of thirty year mortgages, get paid *today* for all of them, reduce their risk to zero, and then go make more loans.

The people buying those securities would then incur the risk associated with default.  But the banks deliberately created security "baskets" that were difficult to analyze the risk for.  Difficult because they had all kinds of mortgages in them.  The banks argued that by making the securities backed by a blend of all different kinds of mortgages, they became "safer" because the mortgages were not coupled.  The risks associated with one were independent of the risks associated with the other.  The law of averages would make the security safer than the individual mortgages were.

But even *that* wasn't enough.  The people who bought the securities knew perfectly well that there was a chance for them to lose money if those mortgages went south.  So they went and bought insurance against default.  That's actually illegal: you can't sell that kind of insurance.  So the financial community, always an inventive sort**, created a loophole.  They created an instrument called a credit default swap, that in effect was insurance: the buyer of the CDS would get paid if their loans were defaulted on.

You now had a system where banks were writing any loans they wanted because they could write loans at zero risk.  They were selling off the risk in mortgage backed securities.  And the securities community could make an unlimited amount of these with zero risk, because they were completely insured against that risk.  The problem was that the insurance companies themselves should have been the final stop against this pyramid.  Those credit default swaps were in effect containers of risk.  They had, like everyone else, considered only the short term risk of individual defaults.  The odds of a single person defaulting was low, and the odds of a huge number of them simultaneously defaulting was therefore even lower, so the odds of having to pay off on a CDS was equally low.  But that didn't take into account what would happen if the real estate market dropped.  If it did, that could cause a lot of people all over the country to simultaneously default because they were no longer independent events: they were now coupled to the larger real estate market.

What's worse is that a system-wide real estate slump would have other collateral effects: the economy would slow, and that would also increase the risk of default (people would lose their jobs or get pay cuts).  The whole thing was built on a pyramid of a financial system that fundamentally abrogated their responsibility to factor in risk.  To me, the entire escapade was absolutely the failure of proper risk assessment.  Every single link in the chain had a responsibility to account for risk, and every single link in the chain deliberately ignored that responsibility, because everyone was making too much money to care.

When the crash happened, it happened fast.  Bear Sterns went down because for some reason they did not offset a lot of their risk in subprime mortgages: they were the canary in the cage.  Lehman was in a similar situation and quickly went down next.  But that alone would not have caused the chain reaction that happened next.  They were investment banks, and had only a small overall impact on the US and world economy.  The problem was that with attention on Bear and Lehman, people began to look a lot more carefully at their mortgage backed securities and CDS instruments.  Investors got nervous, and the value of these things began to unravel.

The banks that purchased CDS insurance against default believed they were risk free because they were insured against risk.  But that presumes the insurance companies can pay off.  At the time of the financial crisis insurance companies were on the hook for literally trillions of dollars of potential losses.  There wasn't enough money in all the insurance companies in the world to pay off all of them.  That's when all that risk everyone just pushed off onto other people came rushing back like a tsunami.  If the insurance companies folded, the banks that purchased CDSs could not be made whole and they would fold.  The mortgage backed securities themselves would quickly lose a ton of value and then everyone holding them would get wiped out.  They would have to start calling in delinquent mortgages at an accelerating rate and then those people would get wiped out.

The real problem with the financial crisis was that there was no way to contain the problem.  A problem in mortgages would devour the residential banking industry, the commercial banking industry, the investment banking industry.  The housing bubble was a problem, but it wasn't the critical problem.  Housing bubbles had come and burst in the past.  It was the enormous leverage combined with a total disregard for proper risk analysis and accounting that amplified the problem into a world wide financial disaster.



** In the aftermath of the financial crisis, one of the complaints from the major financial companies was that the government regulations being proposed to prevent a repeat of the problem was causing a "brain drain" in the financial industry.  Supposedly smart people were leaving financial services to go work in other industries where they could get paid more.  My response was that perhaps the financial industry needed a lot less "financial geniuses" and a lot more people that just knew how to add and subtract and play by the rules without looking to intelligently exploit them.  It does not take a genius to do investment banking.  It does take a lot of smarts to invent all new ways to play the game.  I don't think we need any new ways to play the game.

Tubbius

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25830 on: September 20, 2016, 10:10:39 PM »
"The most haunting thing I remember seeing was the aftermath of the Crisis where my parents live in the San Bernardino County and when you drive up a cul-de-sac, 1 in every 3 house had foreclosure sign and 1/2 built house just sitting there for years to come."

Why does this remind me of the Richard Bachman novel Roadwork?

MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25831 on: September 20, 2016, 11:17:41 PM »
The 2008 financial meltdown wasn't due to businesses not applying risk assessment.  It was due to crony capitalism.

I was at work so I only could do short burst posting, and was going to respond to this when I got home, but Arcana beat me to the punch.

Kelltick

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25832 on: September 20, 2016, 11:31:58 PM »
The banks that purchased CDS insurance against default believed they were risk free because they were insured against risk.  But that presumes the insurance companies can pay off.  At the time of the financial crisis insurance companies were on the hook for literally trillions of dollars of potential losses.  There wasn't enough money in all the insurance companies in the world to pay off all of them.  That's when all that risk everyone just pushed off onto other people came rushing back like a tsunami.  If the insurance companies folded, the banks that purchased CDSs could not be made whole and they would fold.  The mortgage backed securities themselves would quickly lose a ton of value and then everyone holding them would get wiped out.  They would have to start calling in delinquent mortgages at an accelerating rate and then those people would get wiped out.

The real problem with the financial crisis was that there was no way to contain the problem.  A problem in mortgages would devour the residential banking industry, the commercial banking industry, the investment banking industry.  The housing bubble was a problem, but it wasn't the critical problem.  Housing bubbles had come and burst in the past.  It was the enormous leverage combined with a total disregard for proper risk analysis and accounting that amplified the problem into a world wide financial disaster.

Granted, what I'm about to link to are 2011 numbers, but the TBTF (Too Big To Fail) banks and investment houses have not learned their lesson. Overall derivative exposure for these places are astronomical. (Derivatives = exactly what Arcana described, the MBS - Mortgage Backed Securities, the CDS - Credit Default Swaps, CDO's - Collateralized Debt Obligation (technically what an MBS is, but there are many other flavors), etc...)

Chart Form - note: those numbers are in millions, so the total at the bottom is give or take $230 million millions!!!

Same data, in InfoGraphic form

LadyVamp

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25833 on: September 21, 2016, 01:16:13 AM »
This is a bit of an oversimplification, but more importantly it arbitrarily picks causation.  If I shoot you and  that causes you to fall into traffic and get hit by a car, you could argue that you were killed by traffic, but I wouldn't agree that was the reasonable proximate cause.  Furthermore, if you were to argue that the cause of death was my acquisition of a gun permit, that would also not really properly fix causation.  My decision to shoot you was the proximate cause....

"If you are really interested in any of this, grab a copy of aftershock by David Wiedemer, Robert Wiedemer and Cindy Spitzer.  They better explain the bubbles and what has happened and what is yet to come."

Or you could just wait and Arcana would fill in the blanks and correct anything I missed or didn't remember right.
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LadyVamp

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25834 on: September 21, 2016, 01:18:16 AM »
Was it that rough to work in the power industry after Enron? I only read case studies, but never met anyone who worked in the industry during that time period.

The market was already slowing before Enron and Worldcom broke.  The problem in the power industry was the anticipated demand for more power evaporated with the downturn.  There were (and still are) power plants that are idle.
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LadyVamp

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25835 on: September 21, 2016, 01:19:15 AM »
Granted, what I'm about to link to are 2011 numbers, but the TBTF (Too Big To Fail) banks and investment houses have not learned their lesson. Overall derivative exposure for these places are astronomical. (Derivatives = exactly what Arcana described, the MBS - Mortgage Backed Securities, the CDS - Credit Default Swaps, CDO's - Collateralized Debt Obligation (technically what an MBS is, but there are many other flavors), etc...)

Chart Form - note: those numbers are in millions, so the total at the bottom is give or take $230 million millions!!!

Same data, in InfoGraphic form

Oh you're quite right.  They're at it again.  This time with automobiles.  If you got a pulse, you can get a car loan today.
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LadyVamp

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25836 on: September 21, 2016, 01:41:32 AM »
The real estate bubble had a lot of causes, but it wasn't even the proximate cause of the financial crisis.  First, I don't buy the argument that the Affiordable Housing Act "forced" banks to lend to non-credit worthy customers.  That's just plain false.  The banks did not need to be incentivized by the government to lend money because they were already being incentivized by the new markets for mortgage securitization.  There exists no law that required banks to reduce their credit requirements, much less totally eliminate them which is basically what they did.  They were offering loans with ludicrous terms that defied all financial logic.

Actually, I do remember Janet making it very clear she would go after any bank that did not comply with the Affordable Housing Act.  The point of the law was to make housing more affordable for lower-income Americans and those with a poor credit history.  It did this by minimizing the role of credit histories in lending decisions, loosening required debt-to-equity ratios to allow borrowers to make small or even no down payments and encouraged lenders to use floating or adjustable interest-rate mortgages including those with low 'teasers'.  And if lenders didn't do that, Janet would use the full force of the Justice Department to go after them.

Andrew Cuomo, Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, made a number of decisions that plunged Fannie and Freddie into the subprime markets without any means of monitoring their increasingly risky investments.  He turned the Federal Housing Administration mortgage program into a sweetheart lender and legalized what a Federal judge has branded as kickbacks to brokers that fueled the sale of overpriced and unsupportable loans.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 01:47:45 AM by LadyVamp »
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ukaserex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25837 on: September 21, 2016, 05:54:14 PM »
Sorry for the length of this post but as an investor, I know a fair amount about the housing crisis:

 Some believe the beginning of the crash started in 1998 with the effects of NAFTA beginning to be felt.



Don't apologize for being thorough. It's a good read. Insightful. And, given the nature of some politics, inciteful as well.

It's the first time I've seen someone suggest that Nafta could have had something to do with the crash(es). I appreciate the comment. (not saying you're suggesting this, only that you've heard that some have)

It's lengthy essays like this that I really, really enjoy reading - at least when they're about topics I know a little bit about.

I remember being too broke to buy a house. And I remember seeing on tv these folks that were given loans to buy a house that had lower credit scores than I did. I couldn't, at the time, understand how they'd pay for them and all the upkeep that goes into maintaining a house. I can't remember the name of the company that got bogged down in a scandal, but I remember thinking myself fortunate that I never bought a house at that time.

Those who have no idea what they are doing genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they're doing. - John Cleese

LadyVamp

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25838 on: September 21, 2016, 06:54:44 PM »
Don't apologize for being thorough. It's a good read. Insightful. And, given the nature of some politics, inciteful as well.

It's the first time I've seen someone suggest that Nafta could have had something to do with the crash(es). I appreciate the comment. (not saying you're suggesting this, only that you've heard that some have)

It's lengthy essays like this that I really, really enjoy reading - at least when they're about topics I know a little bit about.

I remember being too broke to buy a house. And I remember seeing on tv these folks that were given loans to buy a house that had lower credit scores than I did. I couldn't, at the time, understand how they'd pay for them and all the upkeep that goes into maintaining a house. I can't remember the name of the company that got bogged down in a scandal, but I remember thinking myself fortunate that I never bought a house at that time.

Probably Countrywide Financial.  They were often mentioned in the news.  They took a major hit and went bankrupt.  Got bought by BoA.

There are others who believe the 1998 beginning was due to the dot.com bubble crash which is more likely, but I didn't think of it while writing the post.

My real fear is what happens if/when the dollar bubble pops.
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Tubbius

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #25839 on: September 22, 2016, 03:51:20 AM »
"Dollar bubble" sounds like a new chain of "everything's a dollar" style stores.