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Started by Ironwolf, March 06, 2014, 03:01:32 PM

LateNights

Quote from: Arcana on March 03, 2016, 10:04:34 PM
Actually, that's a bit backwards.  First of all, the theory that Ciguatera or other fish pathogens spurred Polynesian discovery and migratory voyages has to do with the fact that these diseases are in effect epidemic in nature: they can temporarily take over a small ecological area like the coastal area of an island or chain of islands.  But it wouldn't deter someone from fishing in the open ocean: quite the opposite.  We are pretty sure ancient Polynesians used to fish on their voyaging ships and even the crew of the Hokulea fishes when on its voyages.

The problem with fishing for primary sustenance is that it is extremely unreliable, ironically in the areas of the ocean where ocean traffic is most likely to occur, and that includes ancient Polynesian voyages in the Pacific.  So Hokulea stores ample provisions for journeys and uses fishing as a supplemental source of food.

The real problem with fishing on a modern warship, or even a warship during the age of sail, is that it is extremely impractical to fish from the deck of a warship while it is moving quickly, and warships are rarely not moving quickly when not at port.  And can you imagine what would happen if some idiot threw a fishing line out the side of a destroyer and it pulled backward and fouled the propellers?  If he's lucky he'll only get pulled overboard and turned into chum.

On a tangential subject, the sophistication of Polynesian mariners prior to modern times was almost certainly far greater than we now know, given how much of it has only been recently rediscovered and how much of it has likely been lost forever.  I remember when I first learned about the "Navigator's Chair" on Kaho'olawe, and wondered why that isn't in every history textbook in the world (not really, but still).

They'd have to fish in open water - Ciguatera is found in reef fish.

Or, if they were fishing in open water - Ciguatera is no longer as much an issue.

That said, there's the evidence of folk methods for detection - indicating many people ignored the issue at any rate and still continued reef fishing regardless.

Again though, there's the practice of larger seafaring nations being properly prepared for a significant voyage - a practice that's hundreds of years old at the very least...

Also, the sheer size of modern ships (and their crews), makes it highly impractical.

Arcana

Quote from: MM3squints on March 03, 2016, 10:36:04 PM
There is actually more practical reasons that someone being stupid enough to die from the screws, which won't happen in the first place because personnel are restricted to go out on the decks during maneuvers do to man overboard fears. The only time I know people allowed on the decks during maneuvers were airdales on the flight deck of a carrier because the water can't wash them away from the carrier being so high. Not to say waves won't reach the flight deck, it can but you won't be doing flight ops when that time. You honestly can't truly respect the power of nature until you are on one of the most powerful warships man has ever created and you see white water hit the flight deck, then you pay respect to the sailors that came before you because they were doing this on little wooden ships.

1. Health Concerns: Yes is the Ocean, yes fish do come out of the ocean, but, they have not been inspected for any microbes/contaminant  that may be in the fish. From high levels of mercury to parasites there are range of reason of why you don't just eat the crap you fish. You don't cook one fish at a time when cooking for 200+ personnel, you put it all in a pot where the contaminant can spread. Keep in mind even on a small boy (Destroyer) it is very impractical to just stop and fish when your primary mission is to support the mission. Want to see up to 6,000 personnel catching the rhino due to contamination? It is not a pretty sight especially when you have only little over 100 heads.

2. Going to the 1, primary objective is to support the mission. This is not a leisure cruise where the CS will spend time to just fish. Military marches on a stomach and logistics is taken account for any mission no matter how small it is. The US Navy has fleets sectors around the globe and supplies will always run to the warship on hand with underway replenishment. "Fishing" is not a practical or a viable option to feed 200+ personnel a day.

TL:DR Why don't the modern Navy fish for food? It is impractical to do with that is given.

I should have been more precise: the reason why it *isn't* done is simply because naval personnel aren't allowed to in general, as you mention.  I was addressing the question of why it would be impractical to do even if someone had the freedom to actually try.  To amplify the first point, I believe there are strict regulations regarding where the officers or personnel in charge of feeding the crew are allowed to actually acquire their food, as there are regulations and guidelines for practically everything..  I'm pretty sure "the ocean" isn't on the list of approved suppliers.

I was also addressing the general question for both modern and pre-industrial navies.  Not all pre-industrial navies were as tightly regulated as, say, the British navy, which I believe would be the closest to the modern US navy in practical regulatory environment.

Arcana

Quote from: LateNight on March 03, 2016, 11:11:32 PM
They'd have to fish in open water - Ciguatera is found in reef fish.

That was sort of my point.  As the question was whether naval personnel of any age fished for food, the presumption was that they would be doing so largely at sea, so diseases like Ciguatera wouldn't be an issue confronting them in general.


QuoteThat said, there's the evidence of folk methods for detection - indicating many people ignored the issue at any rate and still continued reef fishing regardless.

It is also a sufficiently uncommon condition and most cases relatively mild that it isn't really a deterrent.  We get a couple dozen cases a year in Hawaii, and it doesn't in any way impact general fish consumption, any more than the rare shark attack causes people to stop swimming.  So you can count among the many people who ignored the issue a lot of people here.  And to be honest, it is not something that crosses my mind when eating seafood potentially affected.

QuoteAlso, the sheer size of modern ships (and their crews), makes it highly impractical.

Of all the factors involved, I think size is the least important one because virtually all warships have at least some access to the near-waterline areas in theory.  I doubt you're allowed to fish from them, as MM3 mentions, but they are there.

MM3squints

Quote from: Arcana on March 04, 2016, 12:23:37 AM
I'm pretty sure "the ocean" isn't on the list of approved suppliers.

I'm pretty sure it can be especially when I was deployed and if "the ocean" was supplied by Fat Leonard and you're Captain T Kraft.

http://www.stripes.com/news/navy/3-rear-admirals-forced-out-amid-massive-navy-bribery-investigation-1.328873

When we heard of this, we could not stop laughing because we all had a feeling the surge was just so Kraft can get his star. This corruption investigation was just the icing on the cake. Oh well atleast I got a literal T-Shirt out of it

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xla1/v/t1.0-9/10805651_10205112517716628_7176945556216938752_n.jpg?oh=5c5166f0dbfd1d5487ab4770b0435b6b&oe=576A8EEC

Nyx Nought Nothing

Quote from: Taceus Jiwede on March 03, 2016, 06:47:23 AM
Please. Continue.  I think you are on to something.
You seem to have made a minor mistake while typing. i think the proper phrasing is:
QuotePlease. Continue.  I think you are on something.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

LateNights

Quote from: Arcana on March 04, 2016, 12:35:22 AM
That was sort of my point.  As the question was whether naval personnel of any age fished for food, the presumption was that they would be doing so largely at sea, so diseases like Ciguatera wouldn't be an issue confronting them in general.


It is also a sufficiently uncommon condition and most cases relatively mild that it isn't really a deterrent.  We get a couple dozen cases a year in Hawaii, and it doesn't in any way impact general fish consumption, any more than the rare shark attack causes people to stop swimming.  So you can count among the many people who ignored the issue a lot of people here.  And to be honest, it is not something that crosses my mind when eating seafood potentially affected.

Of all the factors involved, I think size is the least important one because virtually all warships have at least some access to the near-waterline areas in theory.  I doubt you're allowed to fish from them, as MM3 mentions, but they are there.

My point is that that fishing isn't as simple as it might seem, and things like ciguatera are an influence on where and what people fish - while many people ignore the issue, many many more don't, most knowledgeable sport fishermen for example.

As MM3 said, Ciguatera is just one of many potential issues with fishing.

It's great that you ignore it, but I don't because there's no real reason to, fishing can be for sport / enjoyment as much as it is to actually fish to consume the fish - but if I were to catch reef fish for consumption I'd test for it with a home testing kit, which are readily available, for obvious reasons.

In Australia it's mentioned on any fishing show or at any related event whenever it's relevant i.e people are going to be exposed to the risk.

Also, "most" professionals in areas affected that run a business would also "mostly", issue a warning to anyone new to them or the area, rather than let them head into danger blind.

That seems to be the way the world is heading, people taking responsibility for duty of care when in a position that necessitates it...

That said, the last part about the size of a vessel and crew not mattering doesn't wash - that's a potentially MASSIVE amount of fish needed - and again, is part of the reason most people have properly prepared to survive the ocean without having to resort to fishing - it's impractical.

blacksly

Quote from: Arcana on March 02, 2016, 08:36:16 PM
https://bigtonysfantasyleague.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/missed-the-point.png

While funny, that's actually closer to the point than JE usually gets. I'm impressed if he shoots within 90 degrees of the target ;)

Arcana

Quote from: MM3squints on March 04, 2016, 12:54:49 AM
I'm pretty sure it can be especially when I was deployed and if "the ocean" was supplied by Fat Leonard and you're Captain T Kraft.

http://www.stripes.com/news/navy/3-rear-admirals-forced-out-amid-massive-navy-bribery-investigation-1.328873

I see that Rear Admiral (ne: Captain) David Pimpo lost a star following the investigation, which is coincidentally the same penalty Champions Online hands out for similar failures of judgment.

Felderburg

I just realized that the point in that image is a lot bigger than an actual point.

Quote from: MM3squints on March 04, 2016, 12:54:49 AM
Oh well at  least I got a literal T-Shirt out of it

;D
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Arcana

Quote from: LateNight on March 04, 2016, 01:18:47 AM
My point is that that fishing isn't as simple as it might seem, and things like ciguatera are an influence on where and what people fish - while many people ignore the issue, many many more don't, most knowledgeable sport fishermen for example.

As MM3 said, Ciguatera is just one of many potential issues with fishing.

It's great that you ignore it, but I don't because there's no real reason to, fishing can be for sport / enjoyment as much as it is to actually fish to consume the fish - but if I were to catch reef fish for consumption I'd test for it with a home testing kit, which are readily available, for obvious reasons.

In Australia it's mentioned on any fishing show or at any related event whenever it's relevant i.e people are going to be exposed to the risk.

Also, "most" professionals in areas affected that run a business would also "mostly", issue a warning to anyone new to them or the area, rather than let them head into danger blind.

That seems to be the way the world is heading, people taking responsibility for duty of care when in a position that necessitates it...

That said, the last part about the size of a vessel and crew not mattering doesn't wash - that's a potentially MASSIVE amount of fish needed - and again, is part of the reason most people have properly prepared to survive the ocean without having to resort to fishing - it's impractical.

I believe we are discussing two different topics with only coincidentally similar words.  Or something is getting lost in translation from the original Australese.

darkgob

Quote from: blacksly on March 04, 2016, 01:20:17 AM
While funny, that's actually closer to the point than JE usually gets. I'm impressed if he shoots within 90 degrees of the target ;)

Yeah, when I saw that cartoon, in my head I imagined it being more accurate if the line where rotated 90 degrees CCW.

Taceus Jiwede

Quote from: blacksly on March 04, 2016, 01:20:17 AM
While funny, that's actually closer to the point than JE usually gets. I'm impressed if he shoots within 90 degrees of the target ;)

I've spent many years studying the one we call Joshex.  I think he is actually a 4th dimensional being.  And so he is seeing every possible discussion at once.  It makes the "point" hard to keep track of.

Kaos Arcanna

Quote from: Taceus Jiwede on March 04, 2016, 02:53:15 AM
I've spent many years studying the one we call Joshex.  I think he is actually a 4th dimensional being.  And so he is seeing every possible discussion at once.  It makes the "point" hard to keep track of.

Technically aren't we all 4th dimensional beings?


kierthos

Quote from: Kaos Arcanna on March 04, 2016, 03:50:09 AM
Technically aren't we all 4th dimensional beings?
I'm a 5th dimensional being, but I'm trying to lose a little weight.

Biz

Quote from: kierthos on March 04, 2016, 05:02:00 AM
I'm a 5th dimensional being, but I'm trying to lose a little weight.

Comments like this are why there needs to be a "like" button

Taceus Jiwede

Quote from: Kaos Arcanna on March 04, 2016, 03:50:09 AM
Technically aren't we all 4th dimensional beings?

I'm uh....not sure.  I probably risk making my self sound worse by trying to guess then just admitting that I don't really know.  I think so though.  Stop putting logic into my joke!

Reaper

Quote from: Taceus Jiwede on March 04, 2016, 05:27:25 AM
I'm uh....not sure.  I probably risk making my self sound worse by trying to guess then just admitting that I don't really know.  I think so though.  Stop putting logic into my joke!

Just ask the one known as Joshex.  Or his Proxy.  One of them is bound to know.   ;)
Patiently lurking from the shadows...

hurple

Quote from: Arcana on March 04, 2016, 01:27:40 AM
I see that Rear Admiral (ne: Captain) David Pimpo lost a star following the investigation, which is coincidentally the same penalty Champions Online hands out for similar failures of judgment.

Rear Admiral?  Does that mean he's a top?

Solitaire

"When you have lost hope, you have lost everything. And when you think all is lost, when all is dire and bleak, there is always hope."

"Control the Controlables"

Baaleos

OMG
How dare you post City of Heroes related material in this thread!!!
Don't you realize this thread is for talking about everything BESIDES City of Heroes or related games!!

Lol