Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7291800 times)

darkgob

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22600 on: February 12, 2016, 04:01:47 AM »
Taskforce Hail Mary. And no, we don't know what the 'e' stands for.

That is hands-down the worst acronym I've ever seen.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22601 on: February 12, 2016, 04:21:38 AM »
Okay, will someone tell me what THeM stands for???

Truth, Justice, and the Paragon Way?

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22602 on: February 12, 2016, 05:09:54 AM »
That is hands-down the worst acronym I've ever seen.

The WAIVES!?!!

darkgob

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22603 on: February 12, 2016, 06:23:24 AM »
The WAIVES!?!!

See, even that's better than THeM.

MM3squints

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22604 on: February 12, 2016, 06:36:36 AM »
That is hands-down the worst acronym I've ever seen.

The most unfortunate acronym was from the Navy and that is Limited Duty Officer (LDO), which is the title given to those who teach at nuke power school. Sailors decided to add in couple of extra words "Direct Input" in front of the LDO because that title fits the instructors. 

darkgob

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22605 on: February 12, 2016, 06:41:09 AM »
The most unfortunate acronym was from the Navy and that is Limited Duty Officer (LDO), which is the title given to those who teach at nuke power school. Sailors decided to add in couple of extra words "Direct Input" in front of the LDO because that title fits the instructors.

The letters at least fit the words though, that's my main issue.  Like, THeM would kind of work if it stood for "Taskforce Hero Mary".  (I'm not even going to touch the fact that "taskforce" is two damn words, not one.)

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22606 on: February 12, 2016, 08:14:26 AM »
I'll just point out that Paragon Avenger is the one who... uh... "came up" with that term and it... uh... is bad. Like a lot of the stuff PA... uh "comes up" with. :p No one at Titan uses it that I know of. Very few people outside of PA use it. It's bad. Task Force Hail Mary (TFHM) is our name for the negotiators.
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22607 on: February 12, 2016, 12:18:44 PM »
1.3 billion years ago two black holes, one with about 36 times the mass of the Sun and one with 29 times the mass of the Sun, made their final approach in a decaying orbit.  In the last tenth of a second they exceeded half the speed of light and merged, converting three times the Sun's mass into gravitational wave energy.  These space-time ripples crossed 450 megaparsecs of distance and arrived at Earth in September 2015, causing two gravitational wave interferometer detectors to vibrate about a thousandth the width of a proton for about 80 milliseconds.  Computers analyzing the data combed through all of the vibrational noise being measured, including the energy of ocean waves hitting the coastline of the gulf of mexico, and picked out the distinctive signal predicted by General Relativity.

100 years ago in 1916, Einstein predicted the existence of gravitational waves as part of his theory of General Relativity.  However, he also predicted that it would be the one prediction that would never be experimentally confirmed because the theory predicted the waves would be so small they would be impossible to ever be measured: about one part in a billion trillion.  When the gravitational waves generated by that merging black hole binary reached this part of the galaxy they shrunk and expanded the distance between our solar system and Alpha Centauri by less than a tenth of a millimeter.  Even when the theory of using interferometry made it seem less impossible, it still took over forty years for technology to catch up with theory to make sensitive enough detectors to work.

The news of the day is: never assume something is impossible just because it takes a long time to happen.

http://kuow.org/post/milestone-scientists-detect-gravitational-waves-black-holes-collide

citation for you, it's on TV here too.

recent news is recent. recent scientific findings have not undergone counter tests or counter analyses. the scientific method demands that no other testable explanation can be given for the occurrence.

So, they built some very long tunnels (2.5 miles) and sent a laser through them constantly to measure the distance citing that any change would expose the existence of a gravity wave by manner that a space time distortion must have happened.

"The detectors had to be made incredibly sensitive to pick up the tiny waves. But they were so touchy, they were set off by everything from minute shifts in Earth's core to traffic entering the parking lot. And even after researchers got rid of all the terrestrial jiggles, LIGO still wasn't quite good enough to see gravitational waves."

if there can be another explanation, then we should not jump to conclusions that it was definitely gravity waves. no one has a sub atomic picture of the energies causing the ripples, it could be anything, it's a force Science does not understand but it somewhat matches what Einstien said so therefore they just take his word on it.

What if I told you that they are wrong and this is MY confirmation of Dark Matter theory? what would you say if I had actually been able to 'request' this physics mess-up in our quadrant by instigating it? what would you say if I told you I instigated it on purpose to make scientists freak out? guess I'll have to try harder next time to come up with some physics bending that people aren't looking for.

gravity waves.. pft. so sure are you? and this person calls them self a scientist. something happened, yes, but there are other theories than gravity for the cause.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22608 on: February 12, 2016, 02:29:38 PM »
what would you say if I had actually been able to 'request' this physics mess-up in our quadrant by instigating it? what would you say if I told you I instigated it on purpose to make scientists freak out? guess I'll have to try harder next time to come up with some physics bending that people aren't looking for.

If you have the power to request black holes colliding (or whatever you're implying) I think there are better things to do with that power than making scientists freak out.
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22609 on: February 12, 2016, 03:51:09 PM »
Presumably Joshex is claiming to have a way to produce a vibration that, when observed using laser interferometry, results in a signal precisely matching the signature of gravitational waves produced by two black holes colliding. By that, I mean a signature that has been predicted by mathematical solutions to general relativity for many decades.

To which I would respond: Put your money where your mouth is and demonstrate some other phenomena that can produce that precise signature.

Ironwolf

  • Stubborn as a
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22610 on: February 12, 2016, 04:41:19 PM »
Gravity waves?

I blame the tremors on graboids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaXEzvosnSE


Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22611 on: February 12, 2016, 04:44:24 PM »
We may be seriously underestimating the vibrational versatility of unicorn farts.

Biz

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 148
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22612 on: February 12, 2016, 05:06:40 PM »
Interferometry...great name for a toon


Inc42

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22613 on: February 12, 2016, 06:17:39 PM »
Taskforce Hail Mary. And no, we don't know what the 'e' stands for.

Taskforce Hail Enchiladas Mary.

I actually kind of like the acronym. It doesnt have to make perfect sense if it is catchy and easy to remember.

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22614 on: February 12, 2016, 06:21:46 PM »
Taskforce Hail Enchiladas Mary.

I actually kind of like the acronym. It doesnt have to make perfect sense if it is catchy and easy to remember.
But... it's not catchy and it's terrible to remember and it's just terrible. How is "The THeM" (why is there a "the" in there anyway?) easier to remember for Task Force Hail Mary than "TFHM", which is the literal acronym?
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

MM3squints

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22615 on: February 12, 2016, 06:33:06 PM »
But... it's not catchy and it's terrible to remember and it's just terrible. How is "The THeM" (why is there a "the" in there anyway?) easier to remember for Task Force Hail Mary than "TFHM", which is the literal acronym?

Them reminds me of this



I only know of this Movie because Fallout 3 had a mission referencing the movie with giant Ants called "Those!" *Insert something witty here with the word "That" in the sentence.*

worldweary

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 217
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22616 on: February 12, 2016, 07:41:31 PM »
http://kuow.org/post/milestone-scientists-detect-gravitational-waves-black-holes-collide

citation for you, it's on TV here too.

recent news is recent. recent scientific findings have not undergone counter tests or counter analyses. the scientific method demands that no other testable explanation can be given for the occurrence.

So, they built some very long tunnels (2.5 miles) and sent a laser through them constantly to measure the distance citing that any change would expose the existence of a gravity wave by manner that a space time distortion must have happened.

"The detectors had to be made incredibly sensitive to pick up the tiny waves. But they were so touchy, they were set off by everything from minute shifts in Earth's core to traffic entering the parking lot. And even after researchers got rid of all the terrestrial jiggles, LIGO still wasn't quite good enough to see gravitational waves."

if there can be another explanation, then we should not jump to conclusions that it was definitely gravity waves. no one has a sub atomic picture of the energies causing the ripples, it could be anything, it's a force Science does not understand but it somewhat matches what Einstien said so therefore they just take his word on it.

What if I told you that they are wrong and this is MY confirmation of Dark Matter theory? what would you say if I had actually been able to 'request' this physics mess-up in our quadrant by instigating it? what would you say if I told you I instigated it on purpose to make scientists freak out? guess I'll have to try harder next time to come up with some physics bending that people aren't looking for.

gravity waves.. pft. so sure are you? and this person calls them self a scientist. something happened, yes, but there are other theories than gravity for the cause.

They call a "five-sigma" standard of proof, and LIGO's researchers say the gravitational wave discovery exceeds that.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22617 on: February 12, 2016, 08:09:25 PM »
if there can be another explanation, then we should not jump to conclusions that it was definitely gravity waves. no one has a sub atomic picture of the energies causing the ripples, it could be anything, it's a force Science does not understand but it somewhat matches what Einstien said so therefore they just take his word on it.

The LIGO detectors are designed to eliminate false positives in a number of ways.  First, there are two (actually three including a backup) separated by a lot of distance; one is in Louisiana and one is in Washington state.  A confirmed signal requires both observatories to witness essentially identical signals within a limited window of time (because gravitational waves move at the speed of light, waves coming from different directions will hit the two detectors at slightly different times, but only within very specific constraints).  Any random noise that one detector sees due to events nearby will not happen simultaneously at the other detector and can be eliminated. 

Second, the experiment managers periodically inject false positive signals into the system to test the ability for the computer software and the instrument data analysts to both see the signals and properly distinguish them from noise.  No one is told when these tests will happen, so when the actual signal was first detected by the operators they were not sure if it was just another test or not.

Third, the detectors are not just detecting binary signals, meaning they aren't just saying they saw or did not see a signal.  They can measure them to a high enough degree that they can measure the way the signals oscillate and change over time.  Gravitational waves are predicted to have very specific waveforms for specific events that are distinguishable from random noise and all other possible sources of the signal.  The specific signal they were looking for were gravitational waves coming from merging black holes of roughly super-stellar mass (dozens of solar masses).  GR makes very precise predictions for how such a system will merge, including how much energy is radiated away and therefore how quickly the orbits of the black holes will decay.  This causes a very distinctive shift in the signal as the oscillations increase in frequency.  GR doesn't just predict that the detectors will see something, GR also predicts the exact signal.

In other words, at the moment there is no better explanation.


Quote
What if I told you that they are wrong and this is MY confirmation of Dark Matter theory? what would you say if I had actually been able to 'request' this physics mess-up in our quadrant by instigating it? what would you say if I told you I instigated it on purpose to make scientists freak out? guess I'll have to try harder next time to come up with some physics bending that people aren't looking for.

That your pathological delusions were exceeding pharmacological limits.

But to everyone else I would say that Science doesn't work that way.  The difference between Einstein and you isn't just hair style and the fact that he was actually a smart guy.  It is that Einstein did two things you don't.  First, Einstein communicated his ideas in precise language and in a way that his colleagues could both properly understand them and have a reasonable chance to challenge and refute them.  In other words, Einstein was intellectually honest.  Second, Einstein's theories make real predictions that are both testable and falsifiable by third parties.  Einstein is dead but we don't need him around to test his theories because his theories are available for anyone to publicly test.  And Einstein made predictions *before* the tests were actually conducted.  That's what makes them predictions and not postdictions.  Einstein's theory predicts gravitational waves, and did so a hundred years ago before anyone could have known if they actually existed or not.  The fact that Einstein's two theories of relativity make extremely precise predictions of phenomena never before witnessed and that are contrary to intuition, and we've now confirmed *all* of them is why we care about Einstein's theories, and don't care about Joshex's "theories."

General relativity made several predictions:

1.  Orbits will precess due to the influence of gravitational energy on space-time.  Although it was known in Einstein's time that Mercury's orbit deviated by the predictions of Newton and Kepler, GR predicts that all orbits will have a similar, if smaller, deviation from the classical prediction.  Subsequent to GR, those deviations were detected in the orbits of Venus and the Earth, and in precisely the way GR predicts.

2.  Orbiting objects will emit gravitational waves, and thus all orbits decay.  This decay was already measured in binary pulsar systems, which matches the prediction.  The detection of gravitational waves themselves provides direct confirmation of the mechanism of gravitational wave energy radiation.

3.  Gravity will bend rays of light in a very specific way due to the changes in space-time geodesics that is different than the predictions of classical physics would if gravity were treated as Newtonian and photons were treated as having an energy-mass equivalent due to special relativity.  Gravitational lensing has been observed, and is consistent with GR and not consistent with any other explanation for light curving.

4.  Clocks run slower in stronger gravitational fields.  This has also been directly observed using atomic clocks.  Most notably, the orbiting satellites for the global positioning system (GPS) have to take GR into account for their time calculations to work.  GR predicts those clocks will run differently than clocks closer to the Earth due to gravitational time dilation, and GPS confirms those calculations with precision.

5.  Gravitational frame dragging: GR predicts that when a massive body rotates, the actual space-time around the object gets "dragged" in the direction of rotation, causing observable effects in otherwise empty space with no classical forces operating.  There are various experiments which have demonstrated or observed these effects.

Einstein's theories made these predictions *before* experiments were done to show the effects (noting the issue with Mercury's orbit which is considered a postdiction on its own anyway), and did so in ways that third parties could calculate *precisely* what the theories predicted and then either confirm the predictions or refute them.  We don't so much trust Einstein, especially because he's dead, but we trust special relativity and general relativity because not only do they make predictions, they make unexpected predictions that have so far always turned out to be true, and true not just vaguely but with precision.

If I try to guess the order of a deck of playing cards, that can go in a number of ways.  I can say "the next card is like a face card" and when it turns up an ace I could say "lots of people think aces are face cards, so I'm not wrong." And then say :the next card is a heart" and when it turns up the nine of diamonds I can say "I was close, it was a red card" and then when I start accusing everyone of nit picking my guesses you know I'm completely full of shit.

If I predict the first card will be red and it is the king of hearts, and the next card will be black and it is the nine of spades, you might think there's something going on, or you might think I'm lucky.  It is hard to say.

If I predict the first ten cards will be the ace of spades, the nine of diamonds, the king of hearts, the nine of spades, the ten of clubs, the six of clubs, the queen of hearts, the two of spades, the jack of clubs, and the seven of hearts, and they all come up like that, now you know I'm cheating or a wizard.  Nobody is that lucky, so I have to have direct knowledge of the order of the cards somehow.

Special and General Relativity have made the equivalent of guessing a billion cards in a row correctly.  We believe that can't be luck.  We believe instead that it is much more likely that SR and GR encapsulate something fundamental about the universe, such that it is always right so far because it "knows" something.

We also insist that anyone making the claim to either be able to "disprove" SR or GR do better.  SR and GR have a track record.  Nothing is going to change that.  They *might* be wrong in the future in some situation we haven't seen yet, but nothing will change the fact that SR and GR are correct now.  Einstein didn't suddenly make every single experiment that Newton performed wrong.  Newton was still right then.  It just isn't as good as Einstein now.  Anything that replaces SR and GR will have to contend with the fact that it must make the same predictions as SR and GR to the same very high precision, or *they* will be wrong.

So what do I tell someone that claims to have a better explanation for the gravity wave detection at LIGO?  Prove it.  Go smart or go home.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22618 on: February 12, 2016, 08:14:23 PM »
They call a "five-sigma" standard of proof, and LIGO's researchers say the gravitational wave discovery exceeds that.

To be fair, Joshex isn't challenging how statistically likely the detection event was.  He is claiming that there is a completely different explanation for the detection itself.  The five-sigma calculation only refers to the probability that the signal could have been randomly generated or erroneously detected.

But to be fair, Joshex is also claiming to be the Beyonder**, so any challenge on purely statistical grounds is probably missing the point entirely.



** quote: "what would you say if I had actually been able to 'request' this physics mess-up in our quadrant by instigating it? what would you say if I told you I instigated it on purpose to make scientists freak out? guess I'll have to try harder next time to come up with some physics bending that people aren't looking for."

darkgob

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #22619 on: February 12, 2016, 08:23:06 PM »
But to be fair, Joshex is also claiming to be the Beyonder

Does that make you Doctor Doom in this metaphor?