New efforts!

[avelworldcreator]

I was not referring to Missing Worlds Media, I was referring to the mysterious would-be devs, whose names I hope soon become known just so I can actually have a specific thing to call them and write my posts less awkwardly.

You know absolutely nothing about whoever's on the team that wants to put Legacy CoH up and get APR going (Irish Girl aside), for all you know they do actually have previous game development experience.  You got all prickly when people made sweeping assumptions about the CoT devs, then you go off and make sweeping assumptions about people whose identities are shrouded in NDA secrecy.

At any rate, all of the materials you described will have to be reviewed by whoever puts Humpty Dumpty back together again anyway, because even if the old Paragon gang has reunited they no longer have access to any of that information, it's sitting in an NCSoft vault somewhere, much of it was developed by people who were never even employed by Paragon Studios (i.e., Cryptic employees), and they've been away from it for over 3 years.  Even the active CoH devs by their own admission used ParagonWiki, you can bet a reunited Paragon with only old memories to rely on would have to do the same.  Any other dev team worth its salt will be doing the same.

I do not have any game development experience, in fact if we're being quite frank I don't have very much experience in doing anything successfully or otherwise, so no, I would not be likely to succeed in reverse-engineering the game.  But we're not talking about me (although your attempted ad hominem is admirable), we're talking about what I can only assume are competent individuals who can maybe even spell competent correctly on their first try.

God I don't know what the hell I'm even arguing about anymore, I think I've somehow managed to smoothly transition between several different arguers within the same argument without them realizing I'm still in the previous argument and without me realizing they're not making the previous argument.

Thanks for clearing that up. I got a little lost in all the back and forth. Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with you for sure on that. I would nominate our "Victoria Victrix", if she would accept, for the lead role in that. Operation "Hail Mary" is her baby and she deserves something for her time, patience, and grief.

[Arcana]

CoH Legacy.The game had many many years left in it.The others will pass or fail based on their on merits not because they have some connection to CoH.Like others have said CoH was a happy mistake.I wonder if people trying to correct too many of them would what they make be as fun.

You know, part of the "happy mistake" of CoH was the community of players that arose within it.  You have to consider the possibility that even if we got City of Heroes back exactly as it was, the community that grows up within it won't be the same.  If the game can't adapt to that (which legacy won't be able to, because its development possibilities are strictly limited) it may still not be the game you remember.

We the community are not the same "we the community" that existed at launch, or I13, or shutdown.  We were a community of people that shouted in broadcast for help with Portal AVs, then we weren't.  We were a community of players that queued up for the Respec trial, then we weren't.  We were a community that fought for every enhancement drop, then we became a community that gave the things away because enhancements and inventions were so plentiful.  We were a community of hill-sitters for Hamidon, then we weren't.  We were a community that said you shouldn't bother agonizing over your build, then became a community of Mids-fanatics.  We used to street sweep, then we didn't.  We used to have dance-offs at the train stations, then not.  What we cared about and didn't care about changed over time.  What we found acceptable conduct by other players and what we didn't changed over time.  How we treated casual players changed over time.  I'll be frank: our collective in-game treatment towards (presumptive) female players was not very good initially, but as we matured as a playerbase that improved over time (somewhat).

Are we still going to be friendly to casuals?  Are we still going to ostracize abusively childish behavior?  Are we going to be relatively family-friendly in chat?  Are we still going to be able to find teams when we want, run the kinds of content that we want, be able to complete the difficulty we want, have the same amount of friends in chat we want?  All of those things have nothing to do with what server image we get, and everything to do with who we collectively are that plays the game.  That is really the most important part for many (not all) players.  And it is impossible to predict.

[MM3squints]

Even with i13, the one thing I truly appreciated about the whole nature of CoX was it was the best form of sandbox MMO for the none western fantasy genre. Right now, the MMOs tend to be like an amusement park where they will give you a main story and you can't really diverge from the main story (TSW, Blade and Soul, DCUO, etc) and if you tried diverging from the story (Starwars) and make some moral decision, it really doesn't matter in the once you hit max lvl. CoX would just drop you off on the street with the premise of your a super hero or your a super villain go at it, giving you an option to makeup your own backstory instead of an already narrative (You got your powers from a modified version of Brainiacs robots that's it, you are supposedly the last survivor of a Dojo along side with the thousands of other last survivors from the same dojo that's it, you are a lost soul that somehow escaped from Coldharbor and was lucky to along side with thousands of others that's it,) where each toon you create have multiple and I mean multiple different ways to get to lvl 50 with different story arcs and/or Task Force/Trails, and really didn't have a "Main Story" or atleast to my knowledge. Supposedly the only other open sandbox MMO currently is Black Desert Online where they don't have a linear story line and you can do whatever, but, I'm not really into the fantasy genre so I will pass on that.

[worldweary]

My wife and the people we played with made sure to be friendly and easy going.I don't know how the community of players will be when the game returns but I know we will do our part to help and have fun.

[Arcana]

Even with i13, the one thing I truly appreciated about the whole nature of CoX was it was the best form of sandbox MMO for the none western fantasy genre. Right now, the MMOs tend to be like an amusement park where they will give you a main story and you can't really diverge from the main story (TSW, Blade and Soul, DCUO, etc) and if you tried diverging from the story (Starwars) and make some moral decision, it really doesn't matter in the once you hit max lvl. CoX would just drop you off on the street with the premise of your a super hero or your a super villain go at it, giving you an option to makeup your own backstory instead of an already narrative (You got your powers from a modified version of Brainiacs robots that's it, you are supposedly the last survivor of a Dojo along side with the thousands of other last survivors from the same dojo that's it, you are a lost soul that somehow escaped from Coldharbor and was lucky to along side with thousands of others that's it,) where each toon you create have multiple and I mean multiple different ways to get to lvl 50 with different story arcs and/or Task Force/Trails, and really didn't have a "Main Story" or atleast to my knowledge. Supposedly the only other open sandbox MMO currently is Black Desert Online where they don't have a linear story line and you can do whatever, but, I'm not really into the fantasy genre so I will pass on that.

An interesting question is "what is the genre of City of Heroes?"  It is not as easy a question to answer as it might seem.

If I had to quick-summarize Paragon's design philosophy, it would be "everyone gets something, no one gets everything."  The idea was that City catered to a lot of different kinds of players, and they all wanted different things: in mechanics, in gameplay, in storylines.  Paragon tried to do some of it in all directions.  But they never tried to do everything necessary to satisfy any one group of those players.  There's good and bad in that.  But it meant if you really wanted something in general, the odds were good the devs would get to it eventually.  That created very diverse play in some respects, particularly content.  But if you wanted a single coherent experience, or if you wanted a game that *didn't* have something you thought was bad, you were probably out of luck.

That philosophy, never really spoken to the best of my knowledge, tended to self-select its playerbase.  If you wanted a lot of different things, and you could live with also getting some things you really didn't want, City would work for you.  If you were someone that very specifically wanted a game that did NOT have something because you thought it was detrimental to your experience, eventually your luck would run out and if you were serious about it you'd leave.

If you thought loot and gear was bad, you could either ignore the invention system or leave.  If you thought the incarnate system was bad you could ignore it or leave.  If you thought capes were essential but corsets were a waste of developer time you could take the capes and ignore the corsets, or leave.  City was a game for players who wanted things, but not for players that wanted everyone else to not get things.  In that sense, City indirectly encouraged players like you that did not need and did not want coherence, but instead wanted a buffet.  They didn't always offer the buffet well, but they always tried to offer it.

We were never going to get the chef's tasting menu in City of Heroes.  But we were always going to get twelve kinds of all you can eat salad and the carving station with eight kinds of meat.  The prime rib was sometimes overcooked and they kept forgetting the horseradish, but hey, if we asked nicely one day we'd have the chocolate fountain and sushi bar.  Yes, the chocolate fountain doesn't go well with the sushi bar.  But if you wanted to dip your sushi in chocolate, City was the game for you.

[LaughingAlex]

If you thought loot and gear was bad, you could either ignore the invention system or leave.  If you thought the incarnate system was bad you could ignore it or leave.  If you thought capes were essential but corsets were a waste of developer time you could take the capes and ignore the corsets, or leave.  City was a game for players who wanted things, but not for players that wanted everyone else to not get things.  In that sense, City indirectly encouraged players like you that did not need and did not want coherence, but instead wanted a buffet.  They didn't always offer the buffet well, but they always tried to offer it.

I think, this also helped the player base become more mature because it didn't cater to one particular group.  Many games tend to cater either towards "Stop having fun!" types or on the opposite end, the "scrubs" that have equally low tolerance of people playing better.  It didn't cater towards gear grinders or those with altitus but instead tended to be designed to have a good amount for both.  Many games tend to cater towards a specific player archtype and often they seem to be listening to players who truely want everyone else to not have anything.  *Cough*Champs*Cough* started doing that, it's listening to people who truely don't want others to enjoy the game the exact same way they do.  Like solo grinding? Sorry, they forcing people into alerts now.  Want to have fun with vehicles?  Sorry, the players with the devs ear don't want that and can't tolerate it and they don't want you having fun!  Want to just make a team and go at it and figure out how to win with it?  Sorry, it's not a trinity team so thats no good to!

But thats just one example.  Many mmos seem to be doing that from everything I read of them.  Heck, I read bits about wildstar and I ultimately concluded that it was doing the same thing.  So did star trek online for certain, and I wouldn't be surprised if NWO went down the same path.

I think the most fatal mistake is listening to those who have little to no tolerance for how others play or enjoy a game.

Another example of a game that doesn't do that: Minecraft.  There is no one way to really play it.  Not just due to mods, but by it's nature it has something for everyone.  Like exploring?  You can do so.  Like to just build and mine?  Can do that to.  Like to make complex creations?  Can do to.  It's truly a "This is a game with a bit for everyone".  While there are players here and there on the forums who speak with the absolutistic "there should only be one way to play", they tend to be ignored by the devs for a good reason.  Because those players ruin the fun for everyone else whenever their ideas get implemented.  If they had, I wouldn't have been surprised if redstone wasn't the thing it was today.

Likewise, on the opposite spectrum, Terraria comes to mind to a small extent of a game slowly trying to cater to try-hards, or more types who can't stand people playing in other ways.  Particularly it's "end game boss", because of how many tactics got nerfed to oblivion, it became a joke that the developers never wanted the boss to ever be beatable.  Even though the game has it's own complicated wiring system in place, there are moments where a change is made here and there where you cannot help but feel "they really don't want people playing certain ways".

I feel that ultimately, the most popular games are almost always games with multiple ways of playing with a bit of everything for everyone, rather than games that cater to people who really don't want other players to have anything.  I think the games on that spectrum, the ones where "OUR FUN IS EARNED!", give other games a bad name these days.  Granted I expect some games to really be specialized, but I think such games shouldn't try to go for mass popularity.  If they have a niche, they have a niche, thats fine.  But it doesn't help gaming, ultimately, if they are to intolerant of play styles and try to hard to make players play a narrowly specific way.

And regarding difficulty, even those games have to understand learning curves and consistency of rules if they wish to be challenging.  And they still cannot afford to take away player strategies.

[Tubbius]

I have spent much of the afternoon pounding away at my computer through the Internet Archive Wayback Machine, ThinkGeek.com, and my ThinkGeek order history in search of how to refill a floating TARDIS pen of mine.  Success!

Now to just wait on the pen refills to get here. . . .

Also, I have jammed out to "Rhythm of the Night" on repeat the whole time.  Fun song.

Can we have City back now?  :)

[avelworldcreator]

Of course you know I just had to look that song up.

Definite "Way back" for me. High school days.

[Vee]

Also, I have jammed out to "Rhythm of the Night" on repeat the whole time.  Fun song.

I would ask for everyone's favorite DeBarge. But who could choose only one?

[Teikiatsu]

Just curious what people want the most from the following, as there seems to be a range of possibilities for the future.

• CoH Legacy
• Valiance Online
• City of Titans
• Heroes and Villains
• Atlas Park Revival

A viable MMO game to play with a good subscription plan, mechanics I like, and a community I can interact with.

Legacy will have the mechanics and the potential for community, dunno about the subs.
The rest?  Wait and see I guess.

Seriously, I think the global chat channels were one of the best things about CoX.  It didn't matter where I was or what I was doing, I could keep track of multiple channels and jump in for friendly chatter.  It was awesome.

Oh and I could fly at Level 4.

[Arcana]

I would ask for everyone's favorite DeBarge. But who could choose only one?

Going to have to go with Rhythm of the Night, because The Last Dragon kicks all the ass in the world.

I even still have the forum icon I made for "shonuff" back in the day:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4023/4333519978_1b4a05bf63_m.jpg

[Vee]

Going to have to go with Rhythm of the Night, because The Last Dragon kicks all the ass in the world.

I even still have the forum icon I made for "shonuff" back in the day:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4023/4333519978_1b4a05bf63_m.jpg

Still the master now, Leeroy.

I meant favorite DeBarge family member rather than favorite DeBarge song though. i.e. the likes of El and Chico back in the 80s all the way up to Bobby jr. today ;D

[Arcana]

I meant favorite DeBarge family member rather than favorite DeBarge song though. i.e. the likes of El and Chico back in the 80s all the way up to Bobby jr. today ;D

You mean like which DeBarge would I tape their picture onto my trapper keeper?  I don't know, that's like asking which of Terpsichore's sisters is your favorite muse in Xanadu or who's your favorite stalker in The Running Man.


Okay, my favorite stalker is Fireball.

[Vee]

Actually the question was unfair on my part, not only because it's impossible to choose between DeBarges, but also because it glosses over the major metaphysical questions w/r/t DeBarge, viz.:

- Are the members of DeBarge ontologically discrete entities or would they be more properly understood as aspects or moments of DeBarge?
- What, if any, special status does the definite article indicate in the name of El Debarge? Is he the DeBarge in the sense that he's the only DeBarge and the others are subsumed under his Debarge-iness? Or is he somehow the DeBarge in the sense that he completely embodies what it is to be DeBarge in a way in which the others can't?
- Where is Barge? Is it one of the terrestrial Barges in Europe? Is it another realm where the DeBarges originated? Is it simply a state of mind or a state of Being? If one of the latter, to what extent can non-DeBarges aspire to Barge? Can Barge be reached or attained or is it accessible only to DeBarges?
- What does it mean to be DeBarge? Is one of Barge or from Barge? Or does the use of "De" which carries both meanings signify that those are the same thing?
- Is there any sense in which we are all, more or less perfectly, DeBarge? Are we all, in a certain respect, on Arcana's Trapper Keeper?

As I'm by no means an expert in DeBarge studies these aren't really questions I can answer. However I am familiar enough with the pertinent issues that it was sloppy of me to ask a question which so blatantly ignored the depth of the topic. For that I apologize.

[Dareon Kale]

Heh, Berry Gordy's The Last Dragon. Now there's a blast from the past. Leeroy! You finished warming up yet!

[Goddangit]

Okay, my favorite stalker is Fireball.

Captain Freedom   8)

And just for the record, if those three people hadn't won my (places pinkie to corner of mouth) billion dollar Powerball jackpot, I would have cheerfully thrown 10 million at the negotiation just to "grease the skids".

[avelworldcreator]

Going to have to go with Rhythm of the Night, because The Last Dragon kicks all the ass in the world.

I even still have the forum icon I made for "shonuff" back in the day:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4023/4333519978_1b4a05bf63_m.jpg

Don't do that! You are making me feel old...
Oh. I AM old. Never mind then.

[MM3squints]

Going to have to go with Rhythm of the Night

Had to look up that song. Apparently that song came out 2 days after I was born.

[Solitaire]

Can we have City back now?  :)

Please... ;D

[Arcana]

Don't do that! You are making me feel old...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/47/74/85/4774850c0422b2730bc1f4ebf413e78c.jpg