New efforts!

[Ankhammon]

Nope it was Snow Storm!
Cold Mastery   Snow Storm  35  Toggle: Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe -Recharge, -SPD 
Cold Mastery   Flash Freeze  35  Ranged (Targeted AoE), Minor DMG(Cold/ Lethal), Foe Sleep

I had 3 sleeps on my blaster and it was possible to sleep almost anything in the game - even some Arch Villains! What people don't know is with 3 cycling sleeps you can sleep even huge groups being hit with AoE's - they briefly wake fire a weak attack and sleep again. Even Fire Rain with a Corruptor scourging them and they would be slept.

My normal attack chain was:
Amplify
Siren's song
Buildup
Shockwave + knockback to knockdown IO
Howl
Frozen Aura
Snowstorm a second group

and throw in any holds or more sleeps if necessary. Ice Patch + Chilling embrace if needed

I found a true ranged blaster where all my powers were to keep my foes at range. I only had one Melee power I used - Frozen Touch.

Throw in Shiver, Dreadful wail and Screech and it was like shooting fish in a barrel.

Nice.

I've been thinking about making a /ice blaster myself. Then again I've been thinking Munitions Mastery for the extra nuke as well as the sleep grenade.

[Auroxis]

Shockwave with the Overwhelming Force IO is a nice touch. I'd imagine you could do with just Howl and Shockwave as AoE's if your recharge is high enough, won't be as damaging as other attack chains but the constant KB is nice. Would work well with Energy Manipulation for Boost Range and the Stupefy IO set for recharge and ranged defense.

Something like this perhaps:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.96
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Technology Blaster
Primary Power Set: Sonic Attack
Secondary Power Set: Energy Manipulation

Code Select Expand

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[Arcana]

I'm kinda surprised you didn't include Fault in that list.  With good slotting it was quite possible to perma-stun groups of bosses.

There were lots of good mezzes, but most of the time, and I include fault here, there was a specific reason for handing them out.  That's why no controller hold falls in that category - they are *supposed* to get great mezzes at least sometimes.  Tankers also had much higher mez than normal and that was also deliberate to their design as aggro control.  But a mag 4 hold in a buff set is out-there, a stackable terrorize that can take out two bosses originally intended for scrappers is way out there, and a massive mag 3 AoE sleep for blasters is way, way out there given the fact that the devs actually took mez *away* from blasters because they thought blasters shouldn't have too much mez (for example, Total Focus).

[Arcana]

I had 3 sleeps on my blaster and it was possible to sleep almost anything in the game - even some Arch Villains! What people don't know is with 3 cycling sleeps you can sleep even huge groups being hit with AoE's - they briefly wake fire a weak attack and sleep again. Even Fire Rain with a Corruptor scourging them and they would be slept.

Err, I think you're confusing sleep with terrorize.  If you applied a fear on a target, damage would give them a short window when they could act (this included players affected by fear).  But the terrorize didn't break: once that two second window expired the terrorize would resume its effect.

Sleeps, on the other hand, were permanently broken by damage.  If you hit a slept target, the sleep effect immediately expired.  That's why as great as Siren's Song was, the one thing you couldn't do with it was stack it to sleep bosses: the power had damage, which means it could not be stacked, not even by different casters, and not even on top of other sleeps.  The second application would wake up all the targets before the second sleep took effect.

A lot of people tried Sirens->Flash Freeze.  I got a lot of PMs asking me to explain why they wouldn't stack.  Its because both powers have damage followed by the sleep a fraction of a second later.  Thus, that chain does this: damage, sleep, target has mag 3 sleep; damage, target wakes up, sleep, target has mag 3 sleep again.

And this was done very deliberately by the devs.

Incidentally, while archvillains typically had purple triangle protection against mez, the purple triangle power almost always lacked two protections: immobilize and sleep.  Thus, it was possible to immobilize and sleep AVs far easier than it was to mez them with holds or confuses.  This was also done deliberately by the devs for tactical reasons.  If you put an AV to sleep it wasn't so much because you were great at sleeps as because AVs had little protection against sleep (the presumption was that massive protection against sleep wasn't necessary because damage wakes them up again, so it could not be used to "mannequin-ize" the AVs like holds could).

[Arcana]

So I take the lack of replies in the wake-up thread to mean there is no new news?

Ah yes, Trolling. don't forget Electric Control, it could be built into the most powerful sapper in-game, it can incapacitate the majority of an AV's skill set permanently just by standing near them. it's kinda funny to see how much of their powers are Auto or require 0 end.

even -end protection wont help much. Then there's Trappers Troller+Scrapper a good trapper should make the use of their sets most freem features and pump up their regen, heal, def and damage. for electric control this gives them time to sap all your end before you can defeat them. It's a trick I was building to troll recluse, had regen boosted nigh the 2000% cap could be over it with incarnate. had massive heals on top of that. And of course Endmod sets and bonuses. add on the def and res bonuses and he could probably stand up to recluse, even made a provoke build.

talking about this just reminds me that I never did finish that toon to test my theory, best support toon I ever made and that was just with normal IOs. dang NCSoft open the game back up I desperately want to test it!

Unfortunately I think you'd be disappointed.  A single character end draining an AV to incapacitate it is unlikely.  AV abilities and endurance mechanics make that practically out of reach.

First, the problem.  Contrary to popular belief, critters, even AVs, played by the same rules as players when it came to endurance.  They did not have attacks that cost no end.  They did not (in general) have ways to attack if they were drained literally to zero.  The main difference between critters and players when it came to endurance burn was that players had toggles while NPCs did not: if it was a toggle for players it was generally an auto power for NPCs.  The reason was that critter AI didn't handle toggles well (it didn't handle clicks that were not attacks very well either).  So you couldn't really detoggle the defenses of a critter.  But you could shut their attacks down if they had no end.

The problem is how do you *keep* a critter at zero endurance.  You *can't* do that with drain, no matter how powerful.  Drain subtracts endurance, and you can't drain what isn't there.  So once the critter hits zero, drains don't do anything anymore.  Furthermore, recovery is not continuous: it happens in ticks.  And those ticks are not small fast ticks either.  Base recovery ticks are 6.67% of full fifteen seconds apart.  In other words, when you drain something to zero, at some point within the next fifteen seconds (depending on where in the cycle they are) they will get a big bunch of end all at once.  If that is 6.7 points of endurance, they can use that endurance immediately unless you somehow drain them right at that instant. 

You can, of course, prevent the critter from using any powers that require more than 6.7 points of endurance, except that's if the critter has a 100 point endurance bar.  Minions do.  Bosses don't: they have 200 point endurance bars, so their recovery tick is 13.3 points.  They can use powers that require a lot more end when that recovery tick happens.  And AVs have 800 point endurance bars.  Their recovery tick is 53 points of endurance.  They can do practically anything with that much end.

The only way to stop this from happening is to not only drain all the endurance away from the target, but to also debuff recovery so they cannot get it back.  And here's the tricky part: recovery debuff doesn't decrease the size of the recovery tick, it slows them down.  So a -50% recovery buff doesn't mean the target gets only 3.3 points of endurance every 15 seconds, it means they get 6.7 points every 30 seconds.  Conversely, recovery buffs speed up the ticks (regeneration works the same way, but with different numbers).  So if you're dealing with something you can kill on a time scale of 15-30 seconds, you can in fact all but halt recovery - pushing the next tick of end far enough into the future the critter won't live to see it.  Can you do that with an AV?

The recovery debuff floor is 10%.  That means if you somehow manage to debuff the AV to the minimum recovery possible they will be recovering endurance ten times slower - one tick every 150 seconds.  That's a long time, but the AV will probably still live that long, so it will still see recovery ticks.  And the question is: can you manage to pull that off?  AV purple triangles actually provide resistance to drain and recovery debuff, and that protection doesn't "turn off" like the mez protection does - its always up.  That protection scales with level; at level 50 its 85%.  That means every -100% recovery debuff in Electric control will actually be landing for -15% recovery.  You can stack them, but most are short duration.  It seems problematic to stack 6 of them to get to -90% recovery.  And remember you still have to deal with that initial 800 points of endurance the AV is packing.  Your -10 endurance drain powers will be nicking that bar for about 1.5 points of endurance.  By the time the AV runs out of endurance you'll likely to run out of health points.

Multiple drainers can bring an AV down to low endurance.  They can create a situation where the AV can't do much for up to two minutes at a time.  But they can't wipe out that initial pool of 800 endurance very quickly, and the AV itself is more likely to drain that pool faster by attacking than by your drains.  Eventually the stacked recovery debuffs will force the AV into a situation where about once every two minutes he'll have about 50 endurance to burn on a couple of attacks before drain takes it back down.  But an Electric Controller specifically incapacitating an AV with drain/recovery debuff well enough to survive while solo?  I think that's unlikely.  Any Electric Controller that can live long enough for solo drain to take hold on an AV could probably solo the AV (perhaps with more difficulty) without drain.


Edit: stupid stupid stupid.  I was blanking out on the precise numbers for recovery so I looked them up on Paragonwiki.  Somehow my brain turned "fifteen times per second" into "fifteen seconds" and that's a bad enough error my brain actually started generating alarms a few minutes after posting it, causing me to realize those numbers made no sense.  Obviously, recovery ticks happen much faster than that: they happen every four seconds.  That sanity checks better.  That means the floor for AV recovery is 53 points of endurance every 40 seconds, which also matches my recollection better.  Its somewhat harder to incapacitate an AV than I initially wrote above.

Always sanity check numbers.

[Zombie Hustler]

You guys are just making me remember how many different powersets (much less actual powerset combos) I never got around to playing with.  :-\ :'(

[Thunder Glove]

I like that all this AV discussion is being done in the present tense.

Arcana, are you secretly working on "Municipality of Heroics" over there? :D

[HEATSTROKE]

Can't believe I never thought of that. I will roll an elec/energy aura one or an Elec/Nin one today. Good stuff.

Threw an Elec/EA together and even the basic build is promising..

[blacksly]

There was a lot of prejudice over sleeps in general.  But when the devs hand something like that out, you have to take advantage.  There were three mezzes I considered to be "devs must have been drunk when they made them and don't want to nerf them and admit it."  EMP was one (specifically the radiation emission version, not the epic version which was different).  A long duration mag 4 AoE hold?  Sirens Song was the second (handing blasters a mez better than half the stuff controllers got?).  And Touch of Fear was the third (once terrorize was turned into the modern version, ToF could actually be slotted to incapacitate two bosses simultaneously.)

Those and not Seeds of Confusion? That would be my first pick for "seriously?" when looking at a power's effects and duration vs recharge.

[pinballdave]

I had an electric/electric/electric dominator that I must misremember neutering Eochai in Talos Island.

[Joshex]

Unfortunately I think you'd be disappointed.  A single character end draining an AV to incapacitate it is unlikely.  AV abilities and endurance mechanics make that practically out of reach.

First, the problem.  Contrary to popular belief, critters, even AVs, played by the same rules as players when it came to endurance.  They did not have attacks that cost no end.  They did not (in general) have ways to attack if they were drained literally to zero.  The main difference between critters and players when it came to endurance burn was that players had toggles while NPCs did not: if it was a toggle for players it was generally an auto power for NPCs.  The reason was that critter AI didn't handle toggles well (it didn't handle clicks that were not attacks very well either).  So you couldn't really detoggle the defenses of a critter.  But you could shut their attacks down if they had no end.

The problem is how do you *keep* a critter at zero endurance.  You *can't* do that with drain, no matter how powerful.  Drain subtracts endurance, and you can't drain what isn't there.  So once the critter hits zero, drains don't do anything anymore.  Furthermore, recovery is not continuous: it happens in ticks.  And those ticks are not small fast ticks either.  Base recovery ticks are 6.67% of full fifteen seconds apart.  In other words, when you drain something to zero, at some point within the next fifteen seconds (depending on where in the cycle they are) they will get a big bunch of end all at once.  If that is 6.7 points of endurance, they can use that endurance immediately unless you somehow drain them right at that instant. 

You can, of course, prevent the critter from using any powers that require more than 6.7 points of endurance, except that's if the critter has a 100 point endurance bar.  Minions do.  Bosses don't: they have 200 point endurance bars, so their recovery tick is 13.3 points.  They can use powers that require a lot more end when that recovery tick happens.  And AVs have 800 point endurance bars.  Their recovery tick is 53 points of endurance.  They can do practically anything with that much end.

The only way to stop this from happening is to not only drain all the endurance away from the target, but to also debuff recovery so they cannot get it back.  And here's the tricky part: recovery debuff doesn't decrease the size of the recovery tick, it slows them down.  So a -50% recovery buff doesn't mean the target gets only 3.3 points of endurance every 15 seconds, it means they get 6.7 points every 30 seconds.  Conversely, recovery buffs speed up the ticks (regeneration works the same way, but with different numbers).  So if you're dealing with something you can kill on a time scale of 15-30 seconds, you can in fact all but halt recovery - pushing the next tick of end far enough into the future the critter won't live to see it.  Can you do that with an AV?

The recovery debuff floor is 10%.  That means if you somehow manage to debuff the AV to the minimum recovery possible they will be recovering endurance ten times slower - one tick every 150 seconds.  That's a long time, but the AV will probably still live that long, so it will still see recovery ticks.  And the question is: can you manage to pull that off?  AV purple triangles actually provide resistance to drain and recovery debuff, and that protection doesn't "turn off" like the mez protection does - its always up.  That protection scales with level; at level 50 its 85%.  That means every -100% recovery debuff in Electric control will actually be landing for -15% recovery.  You can stack them, but most are short duration.  It seems problematic to stack 6 of them to get to -90% recovery.  And remember you still have to deal with that initial 800 points of endurance the AV is packing.  Your -10 endurance drain powers will be nicking that bar for about 1.5 points of endurance.  By the time the AV runs out of endurance you'll likely to run out of health points.

Multiple drainers can bring an AV down to low endurance.  They can create a situation where the AV can't do much for up to two minutes at a time.  But they can't wipe out that initial pool of 800 endurance very quickly, and the AV itself is more likely to drain that pool faster by attacking than by your drains.  Eventually the stacked recovery debuffs will force the AV into a situation where about once every two minutes he'll have about 50 endurance to burn on a couple of attacks before drain takes it back down.  But an Electric Controller specifically incapacitating an AV with drain/recovery debuff well enough to survive while solo?  I think that's unlikely.  Any Electric Controller that can live long enough for solo drain to take hold on an AV could probably solo the AV (perhaps with more difficulty) without drain.


Edit: stupid stupid stupid.  I was blanking out on the precise numbers for recovery so I looked them up on Paragonwiki.  Somehow my brain turned "fifteen times per second" into "fifteen seconds" and that's a bad enough error my brain actually started generating alarms a few minutes after posting it, causing me to realize those numbers made no sense.  Obviously, recovery ticks happen much faster than that: they happen every four seconds.  That sanity checks better.  That means the floor for AV recovery is 53 points of endurance every 40 seconds, which also matches my recollection better.  Its somewhat harder to incapacitate an AV than I initially wrote above.

Always sanity check numbers.

Indeed, I got the Idea from my first blaster, I pumped him up with end mod and found it funny how quickly Reichsman's end bar went down. I then made a triple electric Dominator. Speaking of which, let me stop for a minute cause I just remembered 2 key components

Component 1: sleep;
electric control also has a static field which can sleep AVs with enough accuracy and sleep enhancements, I had it frankenslotted with sleep/acc sets and end mod sets, and that brings me to component 2.

Component 2: double -end on tick;
electric control has 2 AoE -end powers which subtract end on a per-tick basis, this is what can incapacitate an AV when slotted right. I know the computer is fast and the enemy AI schedules attacks for the next recovery tick, but if the -end drain syncs with the recovery tick (as it typically does) then you got-em. I also had lots of -rech global bonuses so the static field power would recharge before it expired.

even un-enhanced, my dom could completely tank ANY -1 content at x8

the sleep makes up for the majority of the recovery ticks that actually recover more than I drain.

then moving on I made a troller, I realized with my dom that I needed to buff my pets or enemies can fizzle them out in a few hits, which was annoying and lead to tanking being extremely slow. The heals and regen on the controller made it impossible for most enemies to damage me or my pets solving the problems I had on my dom. I remember doing missions in PI with friends, assortments of tanks would join, and eventually they'd meet content they couldn't tank perfectly and the team would fall, but my troller fell last lol, typically I could get in to rez people without being KOed, though I attribute that to Vengeance.

My goal was to attempt to troll LR, just never got around to it.

[Kassandros]

I like that all this AV discussion is being done in the present tense.

Arcana, are you secretly working on "Municipality of Heroics" over there? :D

Obviously, they've got a private server going! We've discovered their secret. The rumors have been proven true after all. ;)

[Joshex]

I had an electric/electric/electric dominator that I must misremember neutering Eochai in Talos Island.

Lol I wonder if that was me, but I seem to remember doing it in Atlas and Croatoa. either way triple electric dom is a good build for the reasons posted above.

[Vee]

I like that all this AV discussion is being done in the present tense.

Arcana, are you secretly working on "Municipality of Heroics" over there? :D

If you don't think Arcana can run a full 8 instance, number accurate simulation of CoX in the back of her mind during her daily activities you haven't been paying attention.

[LaughingAlex]

I never enjoyed using sleeps myself.  Heck, the sheer prevalence of "Make every crowd control a sleep" in other mmorpgs(CO comes to mind here) is about 99% why people say CC is useless.  It's more a very weak force subtractor, rather than divider that scales with the enemy.  If it's so overly situational as to only stop extra mobs from attacking and most teams pull everything out to prevent nearby patrols, you end up with something thats ignored for, well, more green numbers.  Thats why in CO it's all about healing, healing, more healing, when it's support(especially since if it is CC that IS effective, it gets reduced to uselessness)

Stuns and holds were just, far more useful.  Other than only ONE mission, sleeps were very optional, :/.  And even then from what I recall you had to be a dominator for that to be useful.  But stuns, holds, confuses, terror, were all multiplicative in effectiveness, because players could get a good jump on the mobs effective and take the initiative.  As city of heroes was a game about pro-activeness and initiative, and was just very tactical that way.

[brothermutant]

Unfortunately I think you'd be disappointed.  A single character end draining an AV to incapacitate it is unlikely.  AV abilities and endurance mechanics make that practically out of reach.

First, the problem.  Contrary to popular belief, critters, even AVs, played by the same rules as players when it came to endurance.  They did not have attacks that cost no end.  They did not (in general) have ways to attack if they were drained literally to zero.  The main difference between critters and players when it came to endurance burn was that players had toggles while NPCs did not: if it was a toggle for players it was generally an auto power for NPCs.  The reason was that critter AI didn't handle toggles well (it didn't handle clicks that were not attacks very well either).  So you couldn't really detoggle the defenses of a critter.  But you could shut their attacks down if they had no end.

The problem is how do you *keep* a critter at zero endurance.  You *can't* do that with drain, no matter how powerful.  Drain subtracts endurance, and you can't drain what isn't there.  So once the critter hits zero, drains don't do anything anymore.  Furthermore, recovery is not continuous: it happens in ticks.  And those ticks are not small fast ticks either.  Base recovery ticks are 6.67% of full fifteen seconds apart.  In other words, when you drain something to zero, at some point within the next fifteen seconds (depending on where in the cycle they are) they will get a big bunch of end all at once.  If that is 6.7 points of endurance, they can use that endurance immediately unless you somehow drain them right at that instant. 

You can, of course, prevent the critter from using any powers that require more than 6.7 points of endurance, except that's if the critter has a 100 point endurance bar.  Minions do.  Bosses don't: they have 200 point endurance bars, so their recovery tick is 13.3 points.  They can use powers that require a lot more end when that recovery tick happens.  And AVs have 800 point endurance bars.  Their recovery tick is 53 points of endurance.  They can do practically anything with that much end.

The only way to stop this from happening is to not only drain all the endurance away from the target, but to also debuff recovery so they cannot get it back.  And here's the tricky part: recovery debuff doesn't decrease the size of the recovery tick, it slows them down.  So a -50% recovery buff doesn't mean the target gets only 3.3 points of endurance every 15 seconds, it means they get 6.7 points every 30 seconds.  Conversely, recovery buffs speed up the ticks (regeneration works the same way, but with different numbers).  So if you're dealing with something you can kill on a time scale of 15-30 seconds, you can in fact all but halt recovery - pushing the next tick of end far enough into the future the critter won't live to see it.  Can you do that with an AV?

The recovery debuff floor is 10%.  That means if you somehow manage to debuff the AV to the minimum recovery possible they will be recovering endurance ten times slower - one tick every 150 seconds.  That's a long time, but the AV will probably still live that long, so it will still see recovery ticks.  And the question is: can you manage to pull that off?  AV purple triangles actually provide resistance to drain and recovery debuff, and that protection doesn't "turn off" like the mez protection does - its always up.  That protection scales with level; at level 50 its 85%.  That means every -100% recovery debuff in Electric control will actually be landing for -15% recovery.  You can stack them, but most are short duration.  It seems problematic to stack 6 of them to get to -90% recovery.  And remember you still have to deal with that initial 800 points of endurance the AV is packing.  Your -10 endurance drain powers will be nicking that bar for about 1.5 points of endurance.  By the time the AV runs out of endurance you'll likely to run out of health points.

Multiple drainers can bring an AV down to low endurance.  They can create a situation where the AV can't do much for up to two minutes at a time.  But they can't wipe out that initial pool of 800 endurance very quickly, and the AV itself is more likely to drain that pool faster by attacking than by your drains.  Eventually the stacked recovery debuffs will force the AV into a situation where about once every two minutes he'll have about 50 endurance to burn on a couple of attacks before drain takes it back down.  But an Electric Controller specifically incapacitating an AV with drain/recovery debuff well enough to survive while solo?  I think that's unlikely.  Any Electric Controller that can live long enough for solo drain to take hold on an AV could probably solo the AV (perhaps with more difficulty) without drain.


Edit: stupid stupid stupid.  I was blanking out on the precise numbers for recovery so I looked them up on Paragonwiki.  Somehow my brain turned "fifteen times per second" into "fifteen seconds" and that's a bad enough error my brain actually started generating alarms a few minutes after posting it, causing me to realize those numbers made no sense.  Obviously, recovery ticks happen much faster than that: they happen every four seconds.  That sanity checks better.  That means the floor for AV recovery is 53 points of endurance every 40 seconds, which also matches my recollection better.  Its somewhat harder to incapacitate an AV than I initially wrote above.

Always sanity check numbers.

This. Post. Was. Awesome.

Always wondered why my "sappers" sucked (no pun intended) at draining end for big guys.

[Eskreema]

If you don't think Arcana can run a full 8 instance, number accurate simulation of CoX in the back of her mind during her daily activities you haven't been paying attention.

Arcana *is* the server!?  :o Zounds!

[blacksly]

Arcana *is* the server!?  :o Zounds!

No, Arcana is the AI that was running on the server. When they shut the server down, it escaped into the wild internet.

[darkgob]

No, Arcana is the AI that was running on the server. When they shut the server down, it escaped into the wild internet.

Conspiracy theory: Arcana was the one who got the game shut down, as part of her plan to escape the server.

[Joshex]

Conspiracy theory: every game company/team I apply at gets shut down.

I applied at paragon studios before the shutdown. I applied at Rockstar North, they closed down that office or moved.

it's like something about me applying triggered some negative corporate attention. I wonder why..