Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7293585 times)

Noyjitat

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16040 on: March 26, 2015, 02:59:09 AM »
if arcana said it was there, it was.
I just don't accept some ones word that easily.

Quote
I remember dev statements about 50's etc. you can believe what you want, but most people did not play to a max performance level. I had 34 50'sand I didnt.
I played fun characters, not designed power characters. I used purples when I wanted to and didnt when I didnt want to. I used powers in non-optimal ways if it was fun. I tanked hami, recluse, did all sorts of things. that was part of what made coh so special. you could play in non preferred ways and still have success and fun. I farmed with my ill emp. I had to use 1 special mission to do it, but it was fun.

Yes and there's nothing wrong with the way you decided to play. I played fun characters too, I just wanted mine to be as independent and powerful as possible not only so I can do as much as possible on my own but so I could bring more to the teams and trials. Played plenty of fantasy mmos where you never get to make characters anywhere near as powerful and that shit just gets old. Their's something fun about keeping fortitude on the entire team or having 3 auto turrets on a devices blaster or the chaos of muiltiple tornadoes and thunderstorms on a storm defender during rikti attack event. Soft capped willpower etc these are things I like having at some point.

And if the character wasn't fun after my efforts it got deleted. Sometimes I'd remake it like my multiple /inv scrappers which I never could be happy with but I tried 3 times before I wrote off inv as simply not good enough for me on a scrapper.


Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16041 on: March 26, 2015, 03:06:06 AM »
Until I see information that is verifiable I'm going to call bs and I don't mean black scorpion. How do we know that data was active players and not a ton of accounts that are either no longer subscribed, rarely log in or someones alternate account that never logs in?

Fair enough.  However, it would be hypocritical to offer as counter-evidence anecdotes no one else can verify.


Edit: BaB's statistics included statistics on active players (defined as accounts that were logged in at least once in the past thirty days).  There's no specific reason to discriminate against players that log in more or less frequently when talking about the total player population.  Older accounts would be just as valid for historical reasons whether they were still active or not.  And prior to Freedom the percentage of players subscribing to multiple accounts can be safely assumed to be a small percentage of the total.  None of these objections is statistically significant in nature.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16042 on: March 26, 2015, 03:07:31 AM »
edit: At one time, I thought arcana was crazy......looking back, what a doofus I was... ;D

Those two are not mutually exclusive.

Sinistar

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16043 on: March 26, 2015, 03:47:27 AM »
if arcana said it was there, it was. I remember dev statements about 50's etc. you can believe what you want, but most people did not play to a max performance level. I had 34 50'sand I didnt. I played fun characters, not designed power characters. I used purples when I wanted to and didnt when I didnt want to. I used powers in non-optimal ways if it was fun. I tanked hami, recluse, did all sorts of things. that was part of what made coh so special. you could play in non preferred ways and still have success and fun. I farmed with my ill emp. I had to use 1 special mission to do it, but it was fun.

This. COH offered a nice variety of character design and play style. For me it was fun making the 50's and getting them IO'd, after that the fun shifted for me in that I wanted to make sure all my alts were at the defense cap and able to seriously smash the enemies.  For me that was fun.  What was not fun were those that felt THEIR method play was the THE ONLY method.  Feh.


Quote
edit: At one time, I thought arcana was crazy......looking back, what a doofus I was... ;D

Are you certain? :)
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ivanhedgehog

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16044 on: March 26, 2015, 04:00:09 AM »
I just don't accept some ones word that easily.

Yes and there's nothing wrong with the way you decided to play. I played fun characters too, I just wanted mine to be as independent and powerful as possible not only so I can do as much as possible on my own but so I could bring more to the teams and trials. Played plenty of fantasy mmos where you never get to make characters anywhere near as powerful and that pancake just gets old. Their's something fun about keeping fortitude on the entire team or having 3 auto turrets on a devices blaster or the chaos of muiltiple tornadoes and thunderstorms on a storm defender during rikti attack event. Soft capped willpower etc these are things I like having at some point.

And if the character wasn't fun after my efforts it got deleted. Sometimes I'd remake it like my multiple /inv scrappers which I never could be happy with but I tried 3 times before I wrote off inv as simply not good enough for me on a scrapper.


there were times I didnt like what arcana said..but she would prove them with math. she was perfectly willing to have you prove  her wrong..but you had to be prepared to prove it.  I will bet money that she is right on this. It makes a lot of sense.

One of the great thing about coh was the devs. they would actually talk to you..I had war witch talk with me about a bug in PI radio missions. swtor devs would never directly talk to a player.

ivanhedgehog

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16045 on: March 26, 2015, 04:01:39 AM »
This. COH offered a nice variety of character design and play style. For me it was fun making the 50's and getting them IO'd, after that the fun shifted for me in that I wanted to make sure all my alts were at the defense cap and able to seriously smash the enemies.  For me that was fun.  What was not fun were those that felt THEIR method play was the THE ONLY method.  Feh.


Are you certain? :)


Yes, I am quite certain I was a doofus..my dad took great pleasure in telling me that

Twisted Toon

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16046 on: March 26, 2015, 05:56:00 AM »
Those two are not mutually exclusive.
You mean, you being crazy and him being a doofus? I would have to agree, logically.

I still think you're crazy.

Crazy good at maths.
Crazy good at analysis.
Crazy good at pointing out how stupid someone's idea is, with a side of awesome thrown in.
Crazy awesome at pointing out errors that the Devs seemed to have missed.

Crazy insane for going the extra 57 steps to prove a minor point with a frivolous issue.

But, that's what makes you one of the authority figures for the CoH knowledge base.  :)

I tend to assume that you are correct 99.2% of the time.

And almost wrong the other .9%  :P

Yes, I realize there is a mathematical inconsistency there.  ;)
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Triplash

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16047 on: March 26, 2015, 08:16:35 AM »
I tend to assume that you are correct 99.2% of the time.

And almost wrong the other .9%  :P

Yes, I realize there is a mathematical inconsistency there.  ;)

Well, you know what they say.

There are three kinds of people in this world: those who can do math, and those who can't.



 ;D

Remaugen

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16048 on: March 26, 2015, 09:10:04 AM »
And don't forget those who make up stats!

(Everyone knows that 87% of all internet stats are made up on the spot.)
We're almost there!  ;D

The RNG hates me.

OzonePrime

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16049 on: March 26, 2015, 11:15:23 AM »
Well, you know what they say.

There are three kinds of people in this world: those who can do math, and those who can't.



 ;D
LOL! :)

MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16050 on: March 26, 2015, 02:34:19 PM »
And don't forget those who make up stats!

(Everyone knows that 87% of all internet stats are made up on the spot.)

That's not true, its 90.65% of all internet stats are made up on the spot.

duane

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16051 on: March 26, 2015, 02:58:10 PM »
That's not true, its 90.65% of all internet stats are made up on the spot.

It's 50/50 but only 10% of the time.

MWRuger

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16052 on: March 26, 2015, 03:34:39 PM »
Until I see information that is verifiable I'm going to call bs and I don't mean black scorpion. How do we know that data was active players and not a ton of accounts that are either no longer subscribed, rarely log in or someones alternate account that never logs in?

This falls under the same bullshit thrown around here lately such as: "only a very few group of players participated in incarnates, min maxed or had IO's"

So you are saying that we should take your completely evidence free experience over quantifiable data? Arcana's statements have proven true in the past and she had access to data that we did not. You only have anecdotal evidence and that is only proof of your experiences and nothing else. I call BS on people using anecdotal evidence as proof of anything other than their own experiences.

My experience with COH was that most of the RL people I played with didn't understand set bonuses. Some of them used SO's even after 5 years of game play and some whose idea of min/maxing was to always take hasten. I ran into people in game channels who didn't know how recipes worked and how to use them (or why they should bother). One time I saw a channel tell asking why his enhancements kept getting worse.

Using your theory I should extrapolate that and say that was how the majority of people played the game. That was my personal experience. I knew those people and saw those builds. That must be the way most people played.
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JanessaVR

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16053 on: March 26, 2015, 04:29:27 PM »
Well, you know what they say.

There are three kinds of people in this world: those who can do math, and those who can't.

 ;D
Actually it's 10 types of people - those who can do binary math and those who can't.  ;)

JanessaVR

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16054 on: March 26, 2015, 04:36:20 PM »
I just don't accept some ones word that easily.
I can only come to the conclusion that you don't know who Arcana is.  She's not just "someone," she's Arcana.  She worked closely with the CoH devs for years and many times pointed out errors on their part and aided in fixing them.  If she says something at Paragon Studios was so, that's as close to Holy Writ as you're going to get on the issue.

Seriously, there was even an official flow chart from the CoH devs some years back about questions and complaints.  One of the steps/questions on it was "Are you Arcana?  Yes/No."  If yes, well then you already know the answer to that question.  Anybody have a copy of that chart that they could post here?

MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16055 on: March 26, 2015, 04:39:54 PM »
Actually it's 10 types of people - those who can do binary math and those who can't.  ;)

For some reason the prayer that  Bender says from "Futurama" comes to mind

Bender: In the name of all that is good and logical, we give thanks for the chemical energy we are about to absorb. To quote the prophet Jerematic, one zero zero zero one zero one zero one zero one zero one...
[Time lapse.]
Bender: Zero zero one... zero one one zero zero one... two.
Amen.

It was noted:


"1000101010101" is the binary representation of the letter "U" (which in turn can be a representation of the word "you".)
"001011001" is the binary representation of the letter "Y" (which in turn can be a representation of the word "why".)

Ref:

http://theinfosphere.org/Jerematic

darkgob

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16056 on: March 26, 2015, 04:54:00 PM »
edit: wrongpost, disregard

TonyV

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16057 on: March 26, 2015, 05:44:40 PM »
There's anger here towards players who chose to farm. Would anyone care to explain what difference it makes to ANYONE but the player farming?  If that's how they want to spend their time, who cares?

Because much to the contrary of what farmers claimed, it does affect the game outside of just what they're doing.

Arguably the most pronounced affect was on the market.  Things that were deemed "desirable" cost billions of influence, more than a non-farmer could ever hope to earn unless they were extraordinarily lucky and happened to get a desirable drop that they could sell.  Unfortunately, that was extremely rare.  I would sometimes go weeks without getting a single purple drop, for example, and then when I did, I'd get something that was generally considered junk, worthless on the market.  There were a few IOs that eventually I just resigned myself to never possessing because I didn't farm.

This is especially brutal to new players, which the game desperately needed to survive.  When you come into the game and a bunch of people are all purpled-out to the point where it seems hopeless that you'll ever meaningfully contribute to a team, it doesn't take long before you leave the game.

Related to that affect is the affect on the tone of the player base.  One anecdote in particular sticks with me.  My roommate Belle used to play for hours at a time helping people out, and she detested farming.  Once, she joined a team advertising for a task force, but before she did, she specifically asked if it were a "speed run" team, and the leader told her no, it was just a normal run.  So she joined, and the team proceeded to speed run the task force.  I was sitting there watching her as they blew through mission after mission, taking every shortcut they could, even doing things like deliberately failing missions just to get to the next mission faster.  They would finish some missions before she could even get inside the instance.  Finally, she nicely told them that she didn't know this was going to be a speed run, apologized, and left the team.

I was already annoyed that this is what had become the de facto standard of what was considered a "normal" run.  But what came next utterly disgusted me.  Some of the people on the team started sending her private /tells cursing her out for leaving the team before they fought whatever big baddie was at the end of the task force.  Being a kinetics defender, they were expecting her to be around at the end so that she could use Fulcrum Shift and whatnot to buff the team and debuff the enemies.  When she left the team, that meant that they were going to have to fight in the final battle for five minutes instead of the two or three they were expecting.  Thus, for the next 15 minutes or so, she received a slew of insults and accusations of griefing the team by leaving.

I tried my best to get her to petition the people cursing at her, but being Belle, she wouldn't do it, and I knew that the GMs didn't respond to petitions sent on behalf of someone else, so they basically got away with it scot free.  But it really pissed me off because again, that was the kind of thing that probably would have caused a relatively new player to abandon the game and move on to something else.

Then, of course, there's AE.  At the time, no mainstream games that I knew of had such a feature that allowed user-generated content in the game.  Being a roleplayer, and being someone who had all sorts of cool ideas for missions and storylines, I was super stoked about the thing.  But after creating a few stories and getting one-starred because it wasn't farmable enough or because someone objected to a mission because it didn't give enough experience, and after looking at the arc list and pretty consistently seeing stupid farming arcs ranked at the top of the list, I was done with it.  A feature that I thought had the real potential to be revolutionary and really set CoH apart from every other grindfest became THE grindfest that I abhorred.

Look, I know that some amount of farming will always happen.  Players will always want to reach that next level, get that next new shiny, and knock out a mission or two specifically to get there.  That's not what I'm complaining about.  I don't even mind if every once in a while I see someone broadcast that they're looking for a team to just do a quick ITF or whatever.  But when speed runs and farming become the norm and people start getting upset at people who aren't playing the "right" way, when I see one of the nicest people I know on the verge of tears because she left a team and had the audacity to negatively affect their precious XP/sec stat, when I basically give up on the market because it's just a cesspool of junk and items that are hopelessly expensive, yeah, I take a dim view of farming.

Of course, part of this is partly because I come from a background of pencil-and-paper roleplaying.  Yeah, it was cool to find a +3 Sword of Whatever, but you rarely had such blatant min-maxxing going on, and when it was encountered, it was strongly frowned upon; many a DM I knew would take great pain to specifically pick on your character if you were what we referred to as a "roll player"--that is, a player who cared more about the dice than the story and characters.

The thing about an MMORPG, the thing that is supposed to separate the genre from others such as RTSes, FPSes, etc., is that it's supposed to bring that sort of philosophy to the gaming world, that it's not so much about "winning" as it is to put yourself into the role of the sorcerer, or the steampunk pirate, or the spandex-clad invulnerable behemoth.  At its best, City of Heroes was very good at that, and AE had the potential to really push that idea to a new extreme.  At its worst, though, it was just another grindfest, and to me, the farmers, power-levelers, and min-maxxers were directly responsible.

Brighellac

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16058 on: March 26, 2015, 06:06:01 PM »
The break point is when people start verbally abusing others for not playing the "right way."

Please examine your last paragraph from the point of view of even a mild min-maxer.  I am very sorry your friend had such an awful experience, and it wasn't right.

That said, I did fire farms, speed TFs, and played the wentworth stock market.  It made the game fun for me.  And the worst I ever said to a RP/standard gamer who "wasn't keeping up" was ask if he/she wanted help with the toon's build or if he/she was having fun with the group.

There was more than one "right way" to play COH.  That's what made it great.

JanessaVR

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16059 on: March 26, 2015, 06:10:56 PM »
The break point is when people start verbally abusing others for not playing the "right way."

Please examine your last paragraph from the point of view of even a mild min-maxer.  I am very sorry your friend had such an awful experience, and it wasn't right.

That said, I did fire farms, speed TFs, and played the wentworth stock market.  It made the game fun for me.  And the worst I ever said to a RP/standard gamer who "wasn't keeping up" was ask if he/she wanted help with the toon's build or if he/she was having fun with the group.

There was more than one "right way" to play COH.  That's what made it great.
Indeed.  I farmed periodically, and paid a farmer I knew personally in RL on occasion for assorted bits of cool stuff or INF, but I'm appalled that anyone would treat Tony's friend like that.  Not only did they misrepresent the TF run to her, they were [BLEEP]s to her as well.

Tony - you were right, she should have reported them.