New efforts!

[Ironwolf]

"The NDA means they can't talk about it." - paraphrased, but essentially the idea.

Hm.  Fascinating.

They could talk about it in September and before.  How else does this post get started and keep getting more info and updates back in March and on?  Understanding, of course, that Ironwolf did indeed have what looks to be a 'starting of the process' foot in the door, but after that... he shoud not have known/posted anything, if an NDA was up.

But now the doors are shut?  Um... ok.  Weird, but ok.

This is actually the disingenous part I was railing about earlier, btw.  We could get info, mystical-ish as it was, before Sep 1, but now the doors are sealed...   I mean, there's not a whole lot that hasn't been posted about what's supposedly goin' on that would really matter.  Do we really care about pricing or such?  I don't.  Dunno about you guys.  Just want it to be a thing again.

But ok, whatever, if that's the deal and we all just have to assume that things are still going on...  I'll shut up now, and I won't be back in the thread posting until it's done.   

I have faith.  I do.  Honest.

Go team!

It has been a bit confusing perhaps about what happened and when.

The process started in March of 2014 - Nate and his team approached NCSoft.
NCSoft stated a price and Nate and his team said - that is doable - now this is what we would like - blah, blah, blah.
NCSoft said - we would like to talk but we have a bunch of things going on like the launch of Wildstar and could you come back in August and while not under and NDA - could you keep it quiet?
Nate and team said sure we will get things in order and be back in August.
The Facebook implosion happened and while we all panicked - NCSoft was not overly upset, thank goodness.
Since that point - I will hazard a very educated guess they are under a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) and cannot either confirm nor deny the existence of such an agreement.
Nate has said I think in either Feb or Jan 2015 that all we need is one yes and its done - no yes yet - but also they have never said no either. This would obviously mean a yes = all is done and no further negotiations - let's roll. A no would mean the deal is off and another failed attempt.

NCSoft has not said no. They have also not finished the deal either for reasons only those involved can know. Reading into the silence a negative isn't really true - a negative we would know very quickly. There is a lot of moving parts in this deal. Don't worry it will happen.

[FourSpeed]

Having Nate's hand forced wasn't as big a problem after the fact - during that time we were in an absolute panic that NCSoft would get up and walk away and the game would be gone forever.

Since the deal had not really started other than NCSoft saying - yes we will talk to you and this is the price. I cannot stress too much what an NDA is:

Non-Disclosure Agreement. You cannot talk about it - you most times may not even say you are under the NDA. This is a sample of what you could expect to see:

https://www.mycapital.com/companies/non-disclosure-agreement.php

So if they violate the agreement they likely would kill the deal and have to pay damages - so you may have to buy the game and not own it. No, for right now we wait.

Hi IW,

With all due respect, your comment about NDA's is largely incorrect, and directly refutable in the boilerplate one you attached.

Having signed dozens of them over the years, I have *never* encountered one that says "You cannot say you are operating under an NDA". What you *cannot* do is disclose material, proprietary information, or trade secrets pertaining to the NDA.

In the document you linked, this is clearly outlined in section 1 -> "For a period of...Recipient shall hold in trust and confidence...any Proprietary Information which is disclosed to Recipient by ABC Company...". (I snipped a bit, to make the pertinent legalese clear).

Nowhere does that document say, you cannot say you cannot mention IT, itself. In fact, it clearly says in section 2 --> "Agreement shall not apply to any Proprietary Information which: (a) is described in an issued patent anywhere in the world, is disclosed in a printed publication available to the public, or is otherwise in the public domain through no action or fault of Recipient (emphasis added); (b) is generally disclosed to third parties by ABC Company without restriction on such third parties, or is approved for release by written authorization of ABC Company; (c) if not designated “confidential” at the time of first disclosure hereunder, or is not later designated in writing ..."

Clearly, the fact is *public* that Nate et al are IN negotiations with NCsoft (or were 6 months ago, at least) regarding the purchase of COH IP and other assets.

He can, in fact scream that from the rooftops if he so desires as there is nothing proprietary, confidential or trade secret related about it.

What he *cannot* do, is say something like "One issue of the negotiations is that NCsoft want to retain a 5% stake in the holdings" (speculative example). That *would* violate the NDA, as that is confidential, non-public information pertinent to the negotiations.


To give an actual example of an NDA that I just completed a few weeks ago -- We were given early access to a game company's mission editor and signed a typical NDA very much like your example.

So, we could not (publicly) disclose any features of the editor, any bugs found, or any usage techniques, etc., and neither could we share that software with anyone (though, we could share the created missions, of course), as all of that was confidential and proprietary.

However, we could most definitely say "Yes, we are evaluating the mission editor for company XYZ, and we will share some missions we create with it, but we are under NDA, so we cannot give you any information about the editor itself until XYZ publicly releases it".

I hope the distinction there is clear.

My end point is that, unless Nate has signed a truly rare, and draconian NDA, there is no reason he shouldn't be able to say something along the lines of "Yes, we're still in negotiations with NCsoft, as previously outlined, and we believe things are still progressing well  ... or ... there are still a number of points that we're actively negotiating, although due to our NDA, I'm not at liberty to discuss any details or specify any timeframe when things will be wrapped up".

That would not break any NDA I've ever seen, and it would (probably) be helpful for the community as well, to know that activity is still actually occuring.


Regards,
4

[Arcana]

Hi IW,

With all due respect, your comment about NDA's is largely incorrect, and directly refutable in the boilerplate one you attached.

Having signed dozens of them over the years, I have *never* encountered one that says "You cannot say you are operating under an NDA". What you *cannot* do is disclose material, proprietary information, or trade secrets pertaining to the NDA.

I've signed many NDAs in which the fact that you are under NDA is one of the non-disclosure terms of the NDA.  In fact, one of them was with NCSoft itself.  It is not a common term, but it is not exceptionally rare either.

Since I am still bound by those agreements, I don't think I can quote from them even now (the fact that I was bound by them is no longer actively covered) so I found one with a clause more likely to be appropriate to business negotiations:  http://www.precisionmicrodrives.com/uploads/media_items/precision-microdrives-mutual-non-disclosure-agreement.original.pdf

The specific term is section 3:  "The parties will keep the existence, nature and content of this Agreement confidential, together with the fact that discussions are taking place concerning the business and affairs of the Parties."

Section 4 covers exceptions, and the language is pretty standard.  Information already publicly available is not covered.  Even if the assertion that the negotiating team is covered by NDA is a publicly stated fact (I'm not sure it is) the terms of that NDA are not, which would include whether or not the terms of the NDA itself are publicly discussable.

[Zerohour]

I'd like to know where else the talk is going on about this.

If you choose to look, there are scattered stories throughout the websites that cover these types of things. As far as I was personally referring to though, "the talk" is happening on their site. They have big plans and lofty goals and there is a lot of talk about that, but not much else. Add to that the built in Unreal 4 tools that seemed to be shown as CoT "progress", and things suddenly look fuzzy

[LadyVamp]

Whether there is an NDA isn't material.  What is material is businesses don't discuss deals, plans, ideas until they are ready to take them public.  Any such discussions between NCsoft and anyone else, if any, will remain behind closed doors and details kept secret.  I realize this make us, CoH's strongest supporters, crazy, but it's how business is done.

Now is there an NDA?  Very likely.  What it limits both parties to publicly announce? We'll never know.  But even without an NDA, they're not going to come rushing to cohtitan or facebook or twitter and announce they are discussing anything.  If/When discussion and terms have been hammered out and contracts signed then they will make the official announcement.  Until then, it's all speculation.  Those of us who are in the discussions can't really speak about it.  Even without the NDA, speaking about it publicly will almost certainly guarantee the end of discussions without our beloved CoH or at least the IP.  People and companies are funny like that.

As a business manager, I've negociated quite a few business deals.  I can tell you from personal experience the fastest way to kill a deal is to talk about it in public before you got a signed contract.  So whether an NDA exists or not, those parties who are in such discussions can't talk about it.  The rest of us just have to suck it up and be patient and don't do anything stupid.

Now I'm sure at least one person here will take fingers to keys to tell me how wrong I am about how much an NDA matters.  Legally, yes it does matter but from a business standpoint, it really only reinforces what good business managers already do.  Keep our mouths shut about our dealings until agreements are in place, signed contracts, payment schedules, etc. are in place.

[LaughingAlex]

If you choose to look, there are scattered stories throughout the websites that cover these types of things. As far as I was personally referring to though, "the talk" is happening on their site. They have big plans and lofty goals and there is a lot of talk about that, but not much else. Add to that the built in Unreal 4 tools that seemed to be shown as CoT "progress", and things suddenly look fuzzy

When I run a google search I get nothing about it, I'm just going to tell you right now.  It brings me up older stuff, but never anything in any forums.  I wouldn't mind say, a link to the forum thread you speak of, especially since running a search from one machine or network can yield different results than a search ran on another network due to things such as location and isp tracking.  I see bits of talks in the thread here; http://cityoftitans.com/forum/unreal-engine-4-news, but it's a tiny word here.

I'm still searching but i'd been searching for a while today and thats all I found, so please if you know where to look i'd be happy to check it out.  But I have a life, I don't have all day to search for something when google literally isn't bringing up what I am looking for.

[darkgob]

If you choose to look, there are scattered stories throughout the websites that cover these types of things. As far as I was personally referring to though, "the talk" is happening on their site. They have big plans and lofty goals and there is a lot of talk about that, but not much else. Add to that the built in Unreal 4 tools that seemed to be shown as CoT "progress", and things suddenly look fuzzy

That's really disappointing, but also really unsurprising.  I had a feeling something was up way before Christmas, when all their updates were lore-related.  Maybe they should just drop the game and start a comic series.

[LaughingAlex]

That's really disappointing, but also really unsurprising.  I had a feeling something was up way before Christmas, when all their updates were lore-related.  Maybe they should just drop the game and start a comic series.

Well a problem is that they had just switched to UE4 not even a year ago, and they are also starting from scratch, essentially.  I wouldn't even expect an early alpha until next year to be honest.  Developing any game takes a lot of time, ultimately, besides just money, and they have alot of work such as models, animation ect.  When you look at valiance online, you'll notice that they spent a lot of time with the atlas park pre-alpha map.  Now course they have a more original map, and a new model that is more comic-book like, but they have a lot of work to do before the new models are fully ready and still more work for them to get the models in working shape.  A thing to remember though also is that valiance online was a different game in development before it even became valiance online, so we got to see things very quickly after the CoX shutdown.

Edit: I know alot of people are of the "Right nao" attitude, or even refer to other games that didn't have such a long development time.  But those people also fail to realise that most games spend a lot of time in development with no one knowing about them until they are closer to late-alpha or early beta.  :/

[Noyjitat]

Maybe they should just drop the game and start a comic series.

They are committed to making a game due to kickstarter donations so that wouldn't go over very well. In the eyes of former players from city of heroes, paragon devs that donated and potential new customers... yeah it wouldn't go over well at all.

[LadyVamp]

Starting a comic series would not be cool.  likely make a few people very angry.  There might even be legal issues since they accepted money via kickstarter.

[Twisted Toon]

I've signed many NDAs in which the fact that you are under NDA is one of the non-disclosure terms of the NDA.  In fact, one of them was with NCSoft itself.  It is not a common term, but it is not exceptionally rare either.

Since I am still bound by those agreements, I don't think I can quote from them even now (the fact that I was bound by them is no longer actively covered) so I found one with a clause more likely to be appropriate to business negotiations:  http://www.precisionmicrodrives.com/uploads/media_items/precision-microdrives-mutual-non-disclosure-agreement.original.pdf

The specific term is section 3:  "The parties will keep the existence, nature and content of this Agreement confidential, together with the fact that discussions are taking place concerning the business and affairs of the Parties."

Section 4 covers exceptions, and the language is pretty standard.  Information already publicly available is not covered.  Even if the assertion that the negotiating team is covered by NDA is a publicly stated fact (I'm not sure it is) the terms of that NDA are not, which would include whether or not the terms of the NDA itself are publicly discussable.

I have been in a few Betas for games where the NDA strongly suggests that you shouldn't reveal that you are in the beta. I believe the CoV beta was like that.

[darkgob]

They are committed to making a game due to kickstarter donations so that wouldn't go over very well. In the eyes of former players from city of heroes, paragon devs that donated and potential new customers... yeah it wouldn't go over well at all.

Speaking as a donator, I'd rather get a comic series than nothing, which is starting to look more and more likely with each new "update" (my donation feels more like cab fare at this point).  Or, y'know, my money back.

Starting a comic series would not be cool.  likely make a few people very angry.  There might even be legal issues since they accepted money via kickstarter.

Like I said, better something than nothing.  If you really don't want a comic series, make your voice heard for more substantive updates than lore fluff, because right now the game story seems to be their main focus.

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

I have been in a few Betas for games where the NDA strongly suggests that you shouldn't reveal that you are in the beta. I believe the CoV beta was like that.

It was. Had to sign it and fax it back as i recall.


It's been years since i had to send a fax for anything of consequence and i don't miss it at all, but i digress.

[ivanhedgehog]

Speaking as a donator, I'd rather get a comic series than nothing, which is starting to look more and more likely with each new "update" (my donation feels more like cab fare at this point).  Or, y'know, my money back.

Like I said, better something than nothing.  If you really don't want a comic series, make your voice heard for more substantive updates than lore fluff, because right now the game story seems to be their main focus.

I will be honest, I dont even read the lore. I will learn it as I play it in game. it makes more sense and is a lot more fun for me that way. I have gotten way discouraged lately though. vo has kinda disappeared from sight, cot seems to be afk and the negotiations seem to have stalled. this might be perception only, I dont really know. we will see. I am back to playing wow since swtor went stupid.
Hopefully I will wake up someday soon and find that I was being soft in the head..I hope so

[Aggelakis]

vo has kinda disappeared from sight

Are you deliberately living under a rock? :p http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=346891697

cot seems to be afk

CoT is working on game lore, which kinda sucks when we're all interested in seeing tangible results, since lore is not very tangible.

and the negotiations seem to have stalled.

The talks are ongoing and we're not privy to any information about them.

[MM3squints]

I will be honest, I dont even read the lore. I will learn it as I play it in game. it makes more sense and is a lot more fun for me that way.

Ha that kind of how I played CoX I never read anything just kept playing the same story arcs over and over again. Eventually after the 4-5th time, you get the gist of what the story is without even reading anything.

[Noyjitat]

Starting a comic series would not be cool.  likely make a few people very angry.  There might even be legal issues since they accepted money via kickstarter.

This and while I like comics, a game is what I and the rest of the kickstarter people invested in and I'd be pissed if someone tried to pull something like this. Even if they were from the City of Heroes community. When you make a pledge on kickstarter you're putting your faith and an investment in an individual or group to provide what they advertised.

Ofcourse it wouldn't be the first time fraud was committed on Kickstarter but if you **** with the city of heroes community you're going to get burned. However, I don't think for a moment that missing worlds media has any sort of scheme at this point so I'm not really worried.

[Noyjitat]

Ha that kind of how I played CoX I never read anything just kept playing the same story arcs over and over again. Eventually after the 4-5th time, you get the gist of what the story is without even reading anything.

I read most of everything the second time through. But not so much the first time... It always left me wanting voice overs and games like swtor filled that void and even CO and Sto's often cheesy voice acting. To me it's better than nothing.

Would be cool if we had some limited voice overs for our characters in City of Titans such as voice macros for battle cries and taunts. "You'll never defeat me" "Attack" "Retreat" Basic stuff.

[archaist]

I read most of everything the second time through. But not so much the first time... It always left me wanting voice overs and games like swtor filled that void and even CO and Sto's often cheesy voice acting. To me it's better than nothing.

Would be cool if we had some limited voice overs for our characters in City of Titans such as voice macros for battle cries and taunts. "You'll never defeat me" "Attack" "Retreat" Basic stuff.

I love voice overs so much! However, from what I hear the amount of money required to include them in a game is a deal breaker. Comes down to which will bring in more money... money spent doing voice overs or that same money spent to produce more content. While the answer normally falls down to more content, I'd like more voice overs.

[ivanhedgehog]

Are you deliberately living under a rock? :p http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=346891697CoT is working on game lore, which kinda sucks when we're all interested in seeing tangible results, since lore is not very tangible.The talks are ongoing and we're not privy to any information about them.

perception..valiance online seems to be in a cycle where they are working on things. long time between updates. im sure they are plenty busy. rome wasnt built in a day

perception...cot is doing nothing but lore..im sure they are busy little beavers doing the actual game mechanics and what not....

perception..talks have gone off into never never land..they could announce tomorrow that the game will be back on x date......

perception is powerful, even when it has no basis in fact...we seem to be in a lull of new positive happenings....that leads to a perception that nothing is happening..it is easy to get discouraged.