New efforts!

[Ironwolf]

Update
Things change and honestly it is a day to day revelation as to what is available. Apparently right now the conditions/preconditions are what the talks are about. Once the conditions of development/running/selling and so on are met then game is subject to deal making. I am sure NCSoft doesn't want to sell the game and then have someone flip it for a quick profit and also add complexity to IP rights.

Once the conditions are all accepted on both sides then the good stuff starts happening.

Obviously NCSoft had to show what state the game was in and that it was a feasible deal. The data, I am sure - has not been fully examined but the conditions are all that matter at this stage.

[Tyrannical]

For me, getting the game back is a priority, if I want a level 50 back then I shall grind until my fingers bleed and put some effort into the game, rather than having one handed to me on a silver platter. that being said, having the old market and prestige content would be nice, as a few of my characters really came to life with the use of costumes, powersets and other such goodies.

If the game is running from I24, that would be grand, heck, I23 was good enough for me. Though what I do hope is that we get to enjoy the game as it is first, with Issue updates and market content coming in as time goes by, rather than focusing solely on making CoH2 or porting to Unreal4.

I want to live the game again, not worry about losing everything again because a sequel is underway. I pray the content of the game as it is is kept, it's what I fell in love with, and making an 'upgraded' version of the game with none of that content would upset me just as much as when we lost the game. This is the game we want back after all, if we wanted a successor then the CoT bandwagon is there, I wanna fight in the streets of Mercy Island, Delve into the ruins of Orenbega, Soar the skies of Talos Island, rob banks, save lives, defeat my nemesis, defeat -the- nemesis, and then defeat the -real- nemesis.

In short, I hope the focus is on the current version of CoH, plans for the future are nice, but we fell in love with the past, and hope to make it present again.

[Peerless Girl]

.... how about we DONT BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS US? There's always that. These people may get our game back for us, and we're going to vilify them for something they have no control over?! They are losing all their IO'ed out 50s too!! OMG! Our community could never be so crass, right? Right?! I certainly hope not.

You didn't spend much time on the old CoH boards did you? :P

[MWRuger]

We are the people who would be justifying the investment by putting money toward a relaunched game and potential sequel. We are critically important to the deal happening.

Let me break it down this way, based on what the prevailing opinion could be.

"I'd like character data, but if we can't get it, meh, no big deal." = "NCSoft is being a pain about the database, we won't press them about it and maybe we can save some $$$"

"I could survive without it, but would strongly prefer to have my characters back." = "Maybe we should play a few bargaining chips to convince them to go digging, it could pay off for us in terms of drastically increased customer satisfaction."

"I don't think I would bother if it was a clean slate." = "Okay, let's play hardball."

Now I can't say for certain it would play out exactly like that, but if I can easily see how someone trying to wrangle a large deal would be motivated to accept losses they thought could be mitigated if it meant saving a few bucks.

Hmm, like perhaps a dedicated thread started by the acknowledged PR liaison asking "What do you all think?"

That thread is still courting opinions, not votes. There is nothing in there that implies anything said is binding on anybody. Voting is, by definition, binding on the what is being decided.

I don't think enough people feel that they wouldn't play unless they get everything to make a difference.

Frankly, I think most people are afraid that if we push too hard for the entire loaf of bread we may not get a single slice.
I know I do.

Unless you can tell me absolutely that this is a done deal and that all we are doing is haggling over terms and that the game is in the bag, I'm fine with whatever I can get.

[AlienOne]

Update
Things change and honestly it is a day to day revelation as to what is available. Apparently right now the conditions/preconditions are what the talks are about. Once the conditions of development/running/selling and so on are met then game is subject to deal making. I am sure NCSoft doesn't want to sell the game and then have someone flip it for a quick profit and also add complexity to IP rights.

Once the conditions are all accepted on both sides then the good stuff starts happening.

Obviously NCSoft had to show what state the game was in and that it was a feasible deal. The data, I am sure - has not been fully examined but the conditions are all that matter at this stage.

Thanks for the update, Ironwolf.

So, further speculation then... It appears this is just another "stage" in the negotiating process, and we don't have "all signatures" or a done deal at this point.

In fact, the very thing we've just been discussing (conditions/preconditions) is what's on the table, and it may be even more important for them to get Ironwolf's report from the community of what is/isn't important to have on the table.

In any case, I'm highly encouraged to find that everything is still going strong, and the effort is not dead. YES!

[AlienOne]

Unless you can tell me absolutely that this is a done deal and that all we are doing is haggling over terms and that the game is in the bag, I'm fine with whatever I can get.

ok....

Apparently right now the conditions/preconditions are what the talks are about.

How about now?

The game isn't necessarily "in the bag," but this is exactly what Codewalker was talking about. They're negotiating over conditions.

[Peerless Girl]

Frankly, I think most people are afraid that if we push too hard for the entire loaf of bread we may not get a single slice.
I know I do.

Unless you can tell me absolutely that this is a done deal and that all we are doing is haggling over terms and that the game is in the bag, I'm fine with whatever I can get.

This. That and, depending on how much of a monitary difference it makes for them getting the character data (and the fact that having the character data without the account data is a colossal and dangerous headache to try and sort out) it may just be easier and better to move on without it. Or to archive what they do give them and dig through it later, and see if it's worth even messing with. I know that's how my mangeled mess of logs I recovered from a dead RAID-5 setup was. I still have archives of them sitting around. I sift them occasionally for text bits, but they're a mangled, jumbled mess. It makes me "feel better" to know they're there for me to dig through, but they're in an almost unusable state, currently. This is how I envision the character database would be.

[MWRuger]

Update
Things change and honestly it is a day to day revelation as to what is available. Apparently right now the conditions/preconditions are what the talks are about. Once the conditions of development/running/selling and so on are met then game is subject to deal making. I am sure NCSoft doesn't want to sell the game and then have someone flip it for a quick profit and also add complexity to IP rights.

Once the conditions are all accepted on both sides then the good stuff starts happening.

Obviously NCSoft had to show what state the game was in and that it was a feasible deal. The data, I am sure - has not been fully examined but the conditions are all that matter at this stage.

Thanks! I know you are probably tired of hearing this but you are our lifeline in this.

I can't tell you how much it means to be included in even the snippets you are able to share.

I owe you a tall one of whatever stripe you prefer.

[MWRuger]

ok....

How about now?

The game isn't necessarily "in the bag," but this is exactly what Codewalker was talking about. They're negotiating over conditions.

Is it done? Do we have the game back? Could it still fall apart. No we do not and yes it could.

[AlienOne]

It was a pretty odious example of Reductio ad absurdum and inflammatory to boot. The two aren't remotely similar and to anyone who ever had to be there and make that call it stirs up the most painful memories you can imagine.

I wasn't offended because I give people the benefit of the doubt that they don't mean to push emotional buttons, but I can easily see why it would move people to anger.

I've been there before personally with my grandfather (on my father's side). It's very similar. One is referring to "ending a life," and the other is about....ending a life.

The only difference is one is digital, and the other is real life.

Depending on the person, someone may be as attached to a character they spent 2,000 hours with online as opposed to a family member they spent 72 hours with.

Having been in the position myself, it doesn't bother me much (obviously), which is why I used the example.

I will repeat:

it was an illustration to make a point. Point being, whether you do it yourself physically or not, you are still the one responsible for it--so, I don't see why one would make you "feel better" than the other, when the end result is the same.

[InOnePiece]

Doesn't sound like we're one signature away.

I would love to get the game back with all account and character info intact. Hard for me to believe they don't have everything backed up or imaged somewhere, but no one ever accused NCSoft of being neat. If all I can get back is the game itself, fine.

[Ironwolf]

Your input does matter. It does add leverage and I am not saying have a screaming tantrum and say I refuse to play without my data!

I am saying that you can add you would find it VERY important to your continued enjoyment in playing the game in a return to service. I do have a thread in the General CoH side of the boards for this input exactly. You can tell exactly what you want in one location and how important each part is to you.

I am with you - if the character data is reachable by just logging in with my old account name and passwrd, I would love it. I also understand we are all passionate about this game or we would not be here 2 years later. Have a little calm and slow down being upset at other players, the new folks or even NCSoft right now. I know you are all being whipped to a frenzy, I have considered giving less out but I did make a promise to give you what I can.

These characters are part of a created world that gained a status in my opinion of art. Novels have been written, pictures drawn, comics made, videos created and all in homage to a world where you are the most vile creature in existence or the most noble.

[MWRuger]

I've been there before personally with my grandfather (on my father's side). It's very similar. One is referring to "ending a life," and the other is about....ending a life.

The only difference is one is digital, and the other is real life.

Depending on the person, someone may be as attached to a character they spent 2,000 hours with online as opposed to a family member they spent 72 hours with.

Having been in the position myself, it doesn't bother me much (obviously), which is why I used the example.

You can't compare a flesh and blood person to a character in an MMO, unless your grandfather is someone who you would casually delete when you don't like a power set. I wouldn't choose a MMO character over a person I never met. I wouldn't even choose one over you, however tempting that might be at the moment.

It is a terrible illustration and somewhat callous. I would gladly never play CoH again if I could have back the family I have lost. It seems like you are conflating two different things to the detriment of both.

Earlier in this thread you said that people take you the wrong way. Maybe so. But if you keep insisting on pushing the argument then I have to assume that you are far more interested in winning your point than how people perceive you. This is a horrible example and will absolutely upset people.

Pick something else.

[Tubbius]

My screen name is Tubbius.

I am a wholehearted City of Heroes fan, having played the final 4 years, 3 months, from August 2008 to 3 a.m. Eastern US time at close.  My main character was a Plant Controller/Empathy/Ice Incarnate Santa Claus lookalike.  He and his pet Fly Trap, Planty, took down many types of villainous scum all around Paragon City.

If I have to rebuild him and his fellow alternate toons, yes, that will take time.  It's time I'm willing to give as I can, IF the game goes back online.

Will it hurt to have little or nothing but the "out of the box" installation to go with?  Yes.  I wouldn't automatically have the Santa hat, boots, and gloves that were part of his clothing, of course.  However, admittedly, he didn't have that to begin with.  His initial costume, which I kept saved on slot #2, was a bright red tuxedo and large top hat with a big, green necktie.

I am willing to rebuild, though.  It would mean a reallocation of existing resources now much tighter per month than they were two years ago, but I would be willing to do so.

As for starting out at I23 or I24, either is doable.  I suppose I24 would be preferable, given it was the "fix everything" patch and would mean a lot of stuff I never tried out since I didn't do the beta server at any point.

The question comes up on here as to whether the game would be in maintenance mode or not, stuck at I24 but without further development.

I raise this question, and I don't mean it to be crass.  Merely straightforward.

What did YOU use the Architect Entertainment system for?

Were you a farmer?  An author?  A player who dabbled in it?  A player who reveled in it?  A player who ignored it?

My answer to that comes in just a moment--a handful of sentences, really.  First, a little background: I teach English.  I write for fun.  I read a great deal.  I love comic books.  Put all that together, and I was an avid writer of AE arcs, releasing 8 over the time that the AE existed and that I was able to do so without slacking on my work obligations.  Arguably, I believe I wrote the final arc in the AE system: PENGUIN Part 4, Waddle On, which went live around 8 p.m. Eastern on the last night.  It saw 6 total plays and held a 5-star average rating.

To me, the Architect Entertainment system represents a great source of hope for the future of City of Heroes if the game returns.  Even if we have the risk that the developers cannot craft future material, if the Architect Entertainment system is live and functional with the game's possible rerelease, what can WE, the players, truly do for our game, our developers, and our community?

Thank you.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Such as the thousands of people who didn't catch the Heartbleed bug?

Two different things. Heartbleed was not known. SQL injection is Script Kiddie Tactic No 1.

You're a special kind of person if you think that vulnerabilities in ANY kind of code don't exist because you personally don't know about them.

And without close familiarity with said code, the best you can do is try every single possible angle of attack until something sticks. Heartbleed was a problem because it was so widespread, not because it was a new vulnerability.

The simplest way to explain it is that the XMLs are read as data, then inserted into the database rather than executed as code.
It is a basic security practice to, quote, "escape your ****ing data" . If someone doesn't escape data in a production instance of a business system, they are either malicious or dangerously incompetent.
It's also a non-issue if you're using prepared statements, but that's another matter. :)

Point being, if you say people can edit files, they can edit files.
Who's to say someone can't write code that not only imports a costume but also imports a billion influence?

Checksums have that small property that every single byte of the input factors in into the result. f(x) =a, f(x+b) gives something completely different, no matter how infinitestimally small b is.
Point being, how many people know the exact way the checksum is calculated by Sentinel? Unless one knows the exact algorithm used AND any "extras" that may be added to the input data before calculating the checksum (cryptographic salt, read up on it), there is no way to fake a valid checksum for an altered export.
It's possible, yes - if you have very specific knowledge. Otherwise anyone who actually does have it can expose the cheating attempt.

[okami]

For me, as long as I can get the names, the faces, and the important costume parts, I'm all set. Levels and IOs were never really a part of the "character".

That said, I'm torn between wanting to reward the new investors for resurrecting the game ("shut up and take my money!" is my motto in those cases) and not wanting to reward NCSoft [cursed be] for shutting it down. The game being bought out from them,  I have no issue with, if we will be paying NCSoft [cb] to keep the lights on under new management, I will be on the horns of a giant monster dilemma.

[Ironwolf]

Doesn't sound like we're one signature away.

I would love to get the game back with all account and character info intact. Hard for me to believe they don't have everything backed up or imaged somewhere, but no one ever accused NCSoft of being neat. If all I can get back is the game itself, fine.

Oh, the conditions are in the hands of the guy who signs off on the sale. Once all conditions are met by both sides then it moves to closing. This is an example - The buyer says - I want everything from the Statesman statue to the last bumper sticker in your warehouse for $3 million. I also want all character data, account info and the NCSoft logo ripped off everything.

Then the seller says - well how about we keep the Statue, you can have all the rights to make your own posters and bumper stickers and the character data but we keep the account data and the Logo stays on the game and is included in any future deal to stay if you sell it.

That is what conditions of sale are. When you walk into a car dealer you look and see if it is a manual transmission or auto, air contioning, power seats all that stuff and you work a deal if not. That is exactly what is happening. This is the important part and if it is screwed up you may find to your regret adding it later costs a LOT more.

[Illusionss]

if we will be paying NCSoft [cb] to keep the lights on under new management, I will be on the horns of a giant monster dilemma.

I don't think NC is going to have any part of this. If they do, I will reroll a few alts and spend the majority of my time elsewhere while I wait for CoT.

But I think this whole thing is about getting not only the game itself, but the IP away from NC. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

[PSI-on]

Oh, the conditions are in the hands of the guy who signs off on the sale. Once all conditions are met by both sides then it moves to closing. This is an example - The buyer says - I want everything from the Statesman statue to the last bumper sticker in your warehouse for $3 million. I also want all character data, account info and the NCSoft logo ripped off everything.

Then the seller says - well how about we keep the Statue, you can have all the rights to make your own posters and bumper stickers and the character data but we keep the account data and the Logo stays on the game and is included in any future deal to stay if you sell it.

That is what conditions of sale are. When you walk into a car dealer you look and see if it is a manual transmission or auto, air contioning, power seats all that stuff and you work a deal if not. That is exactly what is happening. This is the important part and if it is screwed up you may find to your regret adding it later costs a LOT more.

lol, all this talk makes me sick to my stomach with a mixture of super grade excitement and worry, hehe. P.S. I hope we get the statue :3

[MWRuger]

What did YOU use the Architect Entertainment system for?

Were you a farmer?  An author?  A player who dabbled in it?  A player who reveled in it?  A player who ignored it?

My answer to that comes in just a moment--a handful of sentences, really.  First, a little background: I teach English.  I write for fun.  I read a great deal.  I love comic books.  Put all that together, and I was an avid writer of AE arcs, releasing 8 over the time that the AE existed and that I was able to do so without slacking on my work obligations.  Arguably, I believe I wrote the final arc in the AE system: PENGUIN Part 4, Waddle On, which went live around 8 p.m. Eastern on the last night.  It saw 6 total plays and held a 5-star average rating.

To me, the Architect Entertainment system represents a great source of hope for the future of City of Heroes if the game returns.  Even if we have the risk that the developers cannot craft future material, if the Architect Entertainment system is live and functional with the game's possible rerelease, what can WE, the players, truly do for our game, our developers, and our community?

Thank you.

I was working on a few arcs, mainly one about the Council Empire invading our world and intervening in the fight between the Fifth Column and the Council.

I played arcs every once in a while. I mainly didn't because it didn't count toward defeat badges and didn't like the hassle of dealing with tickets.

I did use the Monkey Farms to level all my alts to 21 for endurance pre-inherent fitness.