New efforts!

[GN2]

Porting the game to UE4 would be a pretty massive undertaking, to the point where I really don't think they're going to do that, because with that much required effort they might as well work on CoH2.

It might be reasonably doable if they were able to plop the existing scripting engine right into UE4, only having to write a wrapper for it, but with the amount of horror stories i've heard about how badly maintained the code in general was, i doubt that it's modular enough for that to be the case.

Then there are things like bases, which would probably require a complete rewrite anyway because apparently nobody actually knew how the base code worked, due to it being uncommented and the one guy who worked on it leaving.

However, I never worked as a dev for Paragon, so I have no idea how thier codebase was laid out, I can only speculate based on what we've all heard. If the buyer's team indeed has devs from the original game on it, that would certainly make a UE4 port move from "near-impossible" to simply "very difficult".

The fact that a UE4 port is even being considered means they probably have a plan for it, though.

[dwturducken]

I played I24 day in and day out on the test server - it was quite stable.

I24 FTW! ;)

As someone (I believe downix) said, the shutdown announcement came a week or so before I24 was supposed to go live. However, it's still possible that there were stability issues on the back side, where we would never see them, or that you were fortunate enough to avoid any of the remaining issues the Issue had. (I really did try not to phrase it that way...)

[mrultimate]

it is not hard to make the leap into rumor and speculation.

Wait! Rumors and speculations????

[Mistress Urd]

If the new team wants to see money coming in right away I'd rather see them offer us something like a rebirth cape ($50)or something along those lines when they launch the game. How about a selling us a limited edition t shirt for $50 or a$100(numbered) I'd rather do that than pay for my data.  I'm sure other have better ideas. Just off the top of my head.

This would be preferred by me as well.

[MWRuger]

I am actually much more concerned about the server software and the SQL software. CoH was running on some pretty old code. I'm not sure you can even get licenses for versions that old. That means that it will have to be ported to updated systems and that isn't trivial.

All the game play stuff, cash store, I23 or I24, all our account restored, fixing bases, CoH2, etc, all of that can be discussed and ironed out. If they make the deal none of that will keep the game from coming back pretty quickly.

Getting it running again on new versions of key systems? That's some hard ass, time consuming work. You need the right balance of talent, money and resources to do this optimally. Also, this has to be the least sexy, but ultimately most important part of the job. is I24 stable? Doesn't mean squat if the bedrock of database and server software isn't dead, rock bottom stable.

It's unlikely they'll talk much about this if/when they sign the deal, but just watch. This is a non-trivial task. Ask some of the admins that post on this thread.

[downix]

You can say that again TDYK. Just spent three months in a nightmare dealing with a custom database system designed for Windows Server 2003 which we tried to get to run on Windows Server 2012. *BST*

Ever tried to find a copy of 11 year old server software?

[Azrael]

My guess - not based in knowledge - just a guess, that likely the game returns and gets running and in the meantime gets ported to UnReal 4 and updated to more easily worked platform.

I am not positive of this just that it seems very likely. It would clear the spaghetti mess of 10+ years of code and get a nice graphic update that way.

I concur.

I think that's the way to go.  Get the game.  Launch with I23.  Quickly follow with Issue 24 (or launch with Issue 24 debugged following a lengthy beta process to get the game up and running.)

Then the race is on to port it to Unreal 4.  A much better platform to work from and CoH would get an 'Ultra Mode 2' kind of graphic update.  (I think the biggest mistake Paragon made was not starting work on a port to eg. Unreal engine as soon as Cryptic were bought out.  For me, they should have hit the metal to get that conversion done.  But alas...)

I still think that would be better than starting 'from scratch.'  You keep the flavour of the original while giving it a shot in the arm.

Of course, non of the work is trivial...but that's the point of putting together a development team.  I think it would be worth the effort and preserve the spirit of the game (which a 'Champions' style rebirth into a CoH 2 might not guarantee.)  Porting to Unreal 4 would be CoH 2.

(A ground up from scratch different game?  What's the point?  City of Titans for that.)

I'd like to see the likes of Codewalker (and other leading community programmers) involved on the code face if the buy out is successful.  He's shown much potential of his talent with Icon.  We could do far worse than have the input of talented CoH community members/'players.'
Be upto the new dev' team to get community talent involved.

Plus, if we have some original developers on the development team...that only augers well in terms of authentic direction.

And for the love of God.  Can I have an offline server for the 'just in case' scenario. 

I don't want to lose this game again.

Azrael.

[MWRuger]

You can say that again TDYK. Just spent three months in a nightmare dealing with a custom database system designed for Windows Server 2003 which we tried to get to run on Windows Server 2012. *BST*

Ever tried to find a copy of 11 year old server software?

Not legally.

I shudder to think about porting databases that rely on archaic/custom scripting to function. ALL of that has to be rewritten for the new software. The calls from the game itself are probably pretty specific to specific directory structures. Even if you use aliases, you still have to redefine all of them. I can just barely imagine how horrible it is.

[chuckv3]

I am actually much more concerned about the server software and the SQL software. CoH was running on some pretty old code. I'm not sure you can even get licenses for versions that old. That means that it will have to be ported to updated systems and that isn't trivial.

All the game play stuff, cash store, I23 or I24, all our account restored, fixing bases, CoH2, etc, all of that can be discussed and ironed out. If they make the deal none of that will keep the game from coming back pretty quickly.

Getting it running again on new versions of key systems? That's some hard ass, time consuming work. You need the right balance of talent, money and resources to do this optimally. Also, this has to be the least sexy, but ultimately most important part of the job. is I24 stable? Doesn't mean squat if the bedrock of database and server software isn't dead, rock bottom stable.

It's unlikely they'll talk much about this if/when they sign the deal, but just watch. This is a non-trivial task. Ask some of the admins that post on this thread.

I honestly mean no offense to anyone here, but how many of you are software developers? I've been doing it for 30 years, which is 30/50 years of my life.

There's no such thing as code that's too far gone. In the absolute worst case: If it runs, one can write unit tests or emulator code to give the input and get the output, and then reverse engineer a cleaner version of the same result(s).

If you have somebody involved who knows how to code, and is always thinking "ZOMG, let's re-write this steaming pile of manure" instead of the typical "don't touch anything; i sorta understand it; it mostly works", then there is hope.

If you have the source code, it's 10 times easier than if you only have the executable.

If you have only the client executable of a client/server pair, and they had some form of obfuscation/encryption in place, and there's no documentation (ahem, where Coh sits right now), you are basically up against a vertical effort, which means 0.001% chance of success, so nobody will step into that pair of shoes.

Our best hope, now as it has been all along, is for NCSoft to sell the rights and the source code to people dedicated to making it work.

[Scendera]

I think Codewalker's already ahead of your expected results on that there, but otherwise, point taken.

[MWRuger]

I wasn't actually thinking about the game code pre se. I was thinking about the server software that runs it and the whatever version of SQL they used.

Maybe you're right and this is a piece of cake. I hope so.

If it was originally optimized for Server 2005 and then updated to 2008, well I don't think you can get either of those anymore. So you have to get to run on Server 2012.

No idea what version of SQL server they ran but I'm pretty positive they weren't using SQL Server 2012. You can't just copy and paste table structures and relational connections from one version to another.

I never said it couldn't be done, just that it will be a pretty big job. I'm sure getting the game code up and running is everything you say, but it has to run on SOMETHING.

[Codewalker]

I am actually much more concerned about the server software and the SQL software. CoH was running on some pretty old code. I'm not sure you can even get licenses for versions that old. That means that it will have to be ported to updated systems and that isn't trivial.

It was refreshed when they moved the servers to Austin shortly before the launch of Freedom, which wasn't a move of physical servers but rather a move onto new hardware. I have it on good authority that the live servers were running on 64-bit 2008R2, which is not only readily available, but preferred by many admins over 2012.

Server 2012 licenses come with downgrade rights to 2008R2.

Nothing to worry about here.

No idea what version of SQL server they ran but I'm pretty positive they weren't using SQL Server 2012. You can't just copy and paste table structures and relational connections from one version to another.

Sure you can. There aren't any earthshattering differences that affect SQL syntax between 2008 and 2012, and I've yet to run into an application that needed modifications to work. They bend over backwards not to break their customers' databases between revisions, that's why MVCC isn't even turned on by default even though it's vastly superior to the old row locking from SQL2000...

Even if it didn't work by some incredibly small chance, SQL2008R2 is also readily available.

[JanessaVR]

My job is a SQL Server Developer DBA.

Believe it or not, this year we leap-frogged from SQL Server 2000 to SQL Server 2012.  Bit of a learning curve for me, but otherwise no real issues.  My library of code developed over 13 years years here runs just fine.  Re-created databases, scripted tables, imported data, re-compiled stored procedures, re-mapped Crystal Reports to new server, and everything's working fine.

It was the switch from SQL Enterprise Manager / SQL Query Analyzer in 2000 to SQL Server Management Studio in 2012 that threw me, but I'm comfortable with it now.

[Mouse-Man]

I am all for getting this game back, if they rip out the "free-to-play" I won't care... I will happily pay the sub. If I have to start all my toons over at level 1 with no bankroll from my old Wentworth dealings, then so be it.

My big issue, not that it will stop me from subbing up again, is that I bought EVERY single booster pack and powerset that they released. Heck, I never did get a chance to actually make a water blaster, but I bought the power on day one. If we get the game back, I hope that I don't have to repurchase all of those add ons. Especially if the relaunch is to just hold us over for CoH2.

The billions in influence I had sitting on my market characters I can live without, but dang it I worked hard for the money to buy all those costume pieces.

Either way, I'm still in.

[HEATSTROKE]

 IMO should leave the hybrid model they had in the game.. personally I liked it.. I subscribed.. I paid for Super Packs.. and yes I bought IO's as well..

The Pay to Win argument IMO is silly..

I paid.. Ive yet to WIN anything..

And in all honesty you need to draw people back into the game and not everyone is in a financial position where they can subscribe consistently.. let them enjoy the game..

Stop the hysteria that everyone is AE farmin.. Everyone is Paying to Win.. etc etc.. I would say that percentage was not even 20% of the player base..

[Microcosm]

I wasn't actually thinking about the game code pre se. I was thinking about the server software that runs it and the whatever version of SQL they used.

Maybe you're right and this is a piece of cake. I hope so.

If it was originally optimized for Server 2005 and then updated to 2008, well I don't think you can get either of those anymore. So you have to get to run on Server 2012.

No idea what version of SQL server they ran but I'm pretty positive they weren't using SQL Server 2012. You can't just copy and paste table structures and relational connections from one version to another.

I never said it couldn't be done, just that it will be a pretty big job. I'm sure getting the game code up and running is everything you say, but it has to run on SOMETHING.

Eh, as a SQL developer myself, I have to agree with Granny (assuming they used SQL even). On the SQL side of things, the benefits from upgrading from, say 2008 R2 to 2014 are not necessarily big enough for them to even worry about it. SQL is also suprisingly good with backwards compatibility. The main reason to upgrade is usually to take advantage of new features.  Column store indexes are neat, but are they vital to keeping the game running?  They would be better served upgrading with CoH2. I can't speak to their other possible systems, but I wouldn't expect they would be in a dire need to upgrade anything immediately.

Edit: Well, there you go, four developers in a row telling you not to worry so much about upgrades. Isn't that usually followed by some sort of good luck?

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

Oh, IDK. The option to choose a "no stability guarantees" server with i24 on it would strike a nice balance.

From what i saw while it was on the beta server i24 was at least as stable as i4, it was mostly a matter of finishing some art in the new sets and tweaking some of the numbers on the new powersets. Although i4 did have some stability issues the first week or so. As in frequent server resets and rollbacks, so i would say i24 seemed more stable than i4 was at release.

Well, actually, that was one of the additions I enjoyed.  Made my in-game life a lot easier, and I was happy to be contributing extra $ to the game - I had thought all of my spending was helping to keep the game alive...

i was a big fan of the Freedom model as well. i subbed from May '04 to shutdown, but i saw the most new shinies for me to play with after Freedom launched. The few temp powers that could almost be pay-to-win i generally hoarded or only used for my own amusement. Like summoning signature heroes just to have them wander around AP.

...

As for the Facebook groups i have posted about the current negotiations in a couple, but made a point to emphasize that the deal will take months to happen if it happens at all and that the best thing people can do is wait and see if it actually works out.

[HEATSTROKE]

 Personally I liked being able to use Merits gained from SuperPacks to get the enhancements I wanted.. and sometimes when they went on sale in the store I just bought them outright. Me purchasing items supports the game.. and makes it more fun for me.. which keeps me playing..

So IMO the whole Pay2Win thing was silly.. when I paid.. they game made money.. and they developed and released more content.. so in that respect.. YES.. I won..

[Dannii]

I can tell you one thing that the Facebook crowd is doing - setting themselves up for disappointment.

I have joined the groups there and they seem to think it will be throw a switch and the game is the same! That scenario is HIGHLY unlikely. To be exactly where you were when the game went down at the beginning not something I think that will happen. It is not out of the realm of possible as it goes forward but to start out of the box after 18 months down and a new group?


I don't want to chill anyone - I want a realistic idea and have tried to be positive, yet open about all of these things. Folks it is growing ever more likely we will get the game in some form back. It is also quite likely it will not be at day one exactly as we were. I think I can safely say there may be an Alpha and then Beta and finally an open Beta to just start return on investment. Then market, and all the other stuff will likely be added in as we go just like NCSoft did it. In fact I am almost certain there was a 3rd party who ran the market.

So please, please, please temper your growing excitement with reality. It will be our home but it is going to need some coats of paint and maybe some holes got punched in the drywall. I can tell you the Devs are seeing some of the wild discussions and I know they are concerned that people will be disappointed with the immediate product. We don't yet know all of the details as to what is coming with the game - hence all the talks and meetings :)

I made a post a couple pages back saying they will go from hero to goat in 24 hours - it may not take that long!

Step 1 - get the game.
Step 2 - everything else.

The journey of a thousand miles starts with one step. I plan on being with the game the whole thousand miles. Whatever we start with - is far better than we have now.

I for one will be happy with whatever we get.  I have tried several other games and did not like any of them.  I will continue to wait patiently and be happy with what we get.

[MWRuger]

Well AWESOME THEN!

Good to know then that won't be a problem.