New efforts!

[Aggelakis]

That's.... not Kirby...  :o

[Azrael]

Indeed.  Well spotted.  ;)

But Captain America, Thor, Hulk, Fantastic Four, Iron Man, Nick Fury, The Black Panther, The Inhumans, Silver Surfer, The Avengers and the X-men are. 

'Marvels' Project?'  More like the 'Kirby Project.' 

Azrael.

[chuckv3]

Okay, I'll bite. Isn't that supposed to be Stan Lee?!?

[Ohioknight]

Okay, I'll bite. Isn't that supposed to be Stan Lee?!?

I think Azrael is making the point that Stan wasn't the real creative force behind Marvel.  Which is both fair and unfair depending on how you look at it and what you mean.  Kirby created all those things, all those characters, all those fantastic concepts... Lee just created Marvel.

But, yeah, Stan Lee has no help to offer us.

[Triplash]

We only have to succeed once.

We can fail as many times as we need to, but we only have to get it right one time, just once and then we can all go home.

*clap clap clap*  Well said!

[Solitaire]

We only have to succeed once.

We can fail as many times as we need to, but we only have to get it right one time, just once and then we can all go home.

+1 We all get knocked down at some point, the goal is to get back up and keep going! Fingers crossed for all those trying to bring our home back.

[China Doll]

I think Azrael is making the point that Stan wasn't the real creative force behind Marvel.  Which is both fair and unfair depending on how you look at it and what you mean.  Kirby created all those things, all those characters, all those fantastic concepts... Lee just created Marvel.

But, yeah, Stan Lee has no help to offer us.

To be fair...Stan lee was the one who created Spiderman and wrote the stories for the X-men and many more.

[TonyV]

We only have to succeed once.

We can fail as many times as we need to, but we only have to get it right one time, just once and then we can all go home.

Indeed!

[Ohioknight]

To be fair...Stan lee was the one who created Spiderman and wrote the stories for the X-men and many more.

Collaborated, edited, approved, vetoed, and dialoged.  Who did what is unrecoverable and really not important.  Jack (or Steve Ditko, for that matter) didn't create a "Marvel Universe" either before or afterwards and his creations even at Marvel when he wasn't working closely with Stan (Eternals, Machine Man etc.) while breathtaking, were stand-alones with no descendents or connections to a larger world.

Jack writing of his rather bitter "homage" to Stan in Mister Miracle "Funky Flashman" wrote: "The question is 'Do We Really Need Him?'"

But the answer Jack never accepted was "YES!".

[saipaman]

When I saw Stan Lee at the San Diego Comic-Con, he went out of his way to praise Kirby.  Stan benefits from still being alive and having a likeable personality.   In fact, if Satan were as charming as Stan Lee, we'd all be in hell now.

[Telth]

Now that we have hope I can't stop making builds on mids........ The struggle is real

[MWRuger]

Collaborated, edited, approved, vetoed, and dialoged.  Who did what is unrecoverable and really not important.  Jack (or Steve Ditko, for that matter) didn't create a "Marvel Universe" either before or afterwards and his creations even at Marvel when he wasn't working closely with Stan (Eternals, Machine Man etc.) while breathtaking, were stand-alones with no descendents or connections to a larger world.

Jack writing of his rather bitter "homage" to Stan in Mister Miracle "Funky Flashman" wrote: "The question is 'Do We Really Need Him?'"

But the answer Jack never accepted was "YES!".

At Marvel, perhaps. However his creations at DC tell a much different story. Kirby's Fourth World stories had a lasting and ongoing influence on the DCU. Darkseid is perhaps the most iconic villain not dedicated to tormenting a single hero. Just look at the ramifications of even something as simple as OMAC. It's initial run of like 7 issues had a profound influence.

I think that is because he had much more of a free hand at DC than he did at Marvel.

But I don't disagree with your post in general. I believe that Stan Lee had a pivotal role in the creation and ongoing stories in the early Marvel universe. Laying specific claims to any specific creation can be tricky in a collaborative environment, after all they did call it the Bullpen for a reason.

I would be totally fine with them being listed as co-creators, even if all Kirby did was the art. He established iconic styles and looks that have certainly endured.

[Achilles6]

Jack (or Steve Ditko, for that matter) didn't create a "Marvel Universe" either before or afterwards and his creations even at Marvel when he wasn't working closely with Stan (Eternals, Machine Man etc.) while breathtaking, were stand-alones with no descendents or connections to a larger world.

uhhhhh....I'm not so sure that's true. The Eternals alone have many tendrils throughout the "Marvel Universe". Or maybe I didn't understand what you were trying to say (it could be me...seriously  ;D).

[BadWolf]

At Marvel, perhaps. However his creations at DC tell a much different story. Kirby's Fourth World stories had a lasting and ongoing influence on the DCU. Darkseid is perhaps the most iconic villain not dedicated to tormenting a single hero. Just look at the ramifications of even something as simple as OMAC. It's initial run of like 7 issues had a profound influence.

I think that is because he had much more of a free hand at DC than he did at Marvel.

But I don't disagree with your post in general. I believe that Stan Lee had a pivotal role in the creation and ongoing stories in the early Marvel universe. Laying specific claims to any specific creation can be tricky in a collaborative environment, after all they did call it the Bullpen for a reason.

I would be totally fine with them being listed as co-creators, even if all Kirby did was the art. He established iconic styles and looks that have certainly endured.

I always say that arguing about whether Lee or Kirby was responsible for Marvel's foundation is like arguing about whether Lennon or McCartney was responsible for the Beatles' sound. They made something together that was more than either one could achieve separately.

[The Fifth Horseman]

uhhhhh....I'm not so sure that's true. The Eternals alone have many tendrils throughout the "Marvel Universe". Or maybe I didn't understand what you were trying to say (it could be me...seriously  ;D).

They do now. Not neccesarily so when they were first created, which is what he's talking about.

[Achilles6]

They do now. Not neccesarily so when they were first created, which is what he's talking about.

see....I told you it could be me.  :P

[China Doll]

I always say that arguing about whether Lee or Kirby was responsible for Marvel's foundation is like arguing about whether Lennon or McCartney was responsible for the Beatles' sound. They made something together that was more than either one could achieve separately.

Nicely put, True believer ;)

[Azrael]

They do now. Not neccesarily so when they were first created, which is what he's talking about.

Jack Kirby had little interest in integrating the 'Marvel Universe' (that was created upon his back) with the Eternals.  HE (yes, 'he...') created the 'Eternals Universe' but was pressurised into doing so.  ('Robot' Hulk being a clear swipe at Marvel editorial interference...)

Further more, 'back in the day,' it was Stan that clamoured to bring back the 'old' characters from the Golden Age (which, ironically, he wasn't responsible for their creation... :P ) for the yet to be successful Silver Age while Kirby wanted to create 'new' concepts.  A little clue as to where the true creative power in that 'team' lay...

Azrael.

Quote from: TheDevilYouKnow on May 08, 2014, 03:52:12 pm
We only have to succeed once.

We can fail as many times as we need to, but we only have to get it right one time, just once and then we can all go home.

Very true.  It's a matter of time.  When.  Not 'if.'

[Azrael]

Collaborated, edited, approved, vetoed, and dialoged.  Who did what is unrecoverable and really not important.  Jack (or Steve Ditko, for that matter) didn't create a "Marvel Universe" either before or afterwards and his creations even at Marvel when he wasn't working closely with Stan (Eternals, Machine Man etc.) while breathtaking, were stand-alones with no descendents or connections to a larger world.

Jack writing of his rather bitter "homage" to Stan in Mister Miracle "Funky Flashman" wrote: "The question is 'Do We Really Need Him?'"

But the answer Jack never accepted was "YES!".

"Do we really need him?"  All the evidence after Kirby left Marvel for DC is 'NO!'

Stan was a shrewd editor (...) and a great PR man riding the crest of wave he was powerless to create.  All flash and a little less substance.  I'll be polite and leave him hanging there.

Creative credit is a minefield as IP lawsuits the world over will testify too.  But 'actions' speak louder than words.

Spider Man's creation isn't quite as 'clear cut' as many (Stan, especially...) would have us believe.

Jack Kirby went to Stan (who was related to the publisher...) and pitched a 'Spider Man' concept.  Furthermore, Kirby had done the 1st 5-6 pages.  Stan (being 'editor' ;) ) felt Kirby made Parker too handsome.  Sure, Kirby's 'idea' had  a different costume.  And a teenager with a web gun.  Not so far from the 'Fly' character that Simon and Kirby came up with.  Stan put Ditko on it and Ditko came up with the iconic costume, web shooters and 'gawky' Parker teenager look.  Ditko (himself, was more than a little peeved that Stan wouldn't share creation rights and give him a bit more credit...) Stan, for me, was the middle man in the creation of Spider Man.

Morecambe and Wise.  Stan, the less essential member of a a fondly remembered double act.

Or in more fundamental terms...

Look at Stan's work before and after the 'Marvel Universe' (a mere branding exercise for concepts he 'precided' over...) and compare to Kirby's work.  (Who, inconveniently for some, was a creative Tour De Force before and After the 'Marvel', sorry, 'Kirby' Age...)

We look at how 'creative' the Kirby 'House' of Ideas was after Kirby left for DC.  Marvel had no answer to the New Gods.  A universe spread over 4 books in an organic tapestry breath taking in scale.  It left the Marvel Universe seeming all rather stale and po-faced PR exercise... :P  i.e. lacking in substance.  Ironic, then, that New Gods was a little 'too brave' for DC even on sales of at least half a million.  If only DC had a better PR man with a little 'flash' to get the word out and take credit for it...

In fact, let's really get to it.

Pile up all of Stan Lee's 'scripts' (...) ...and pile them up next to Kirby's Comic Art boards (...many of those from the 'Marvel Age' went 'missing' from the Marvel archives...) over his prodigious career.  You'd get a more fundamental truth about who was pivotal to Marvel's success. 

Or as I like to call it, the Kirby Universe. (...Captain America, Thor, Hulk, Fantastic Four, Iron Man, Nick Fury, The Black Panther, The Inhumans, Silver Surfer, The Avengers and the X-men...Eternals, Machine Man, Devil Dinosaur...New Gods, Forever People, Miracle Man, Kamandi and countless more.)

If the creator's of Superman felt 'hard done to' imagine how Kirby felt.  If he was occasionally, in 'rare' candid moments, 'bitter'...I'd forgive him that.

Or in the words of one of my favourite comic artists growing up (and I heard him talk on the acrimony on Marvel vs Kirby...1st hand at the United Kingdom Comic Art Convention in the mid-to late 80s...)  Listen to this in a broad New York accent:

'If there was one guy that got shafted...it was Jack Kirby.'  John Buscema. 

Azrael.

[Kaos Arcanna]

While the merits of Lee vs. Kirby is an interesting debate, it doesn't really have a lot to do with Ironwolf's posts regarding an attempt by someone to purchase game. Not that I'd object to such a thread in the Comics and Other Media Forum, but I don't really think this is the place for it.