Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7295150 times)

Noyjitat

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16160 on: March 30, 2015, 01:42:57 AM »
*ahem*

<- modhat

The AE/farming/powerleveling/exploit conversation appears to have turned from "debate" to "personal vendetta".  In additon, if the conversation ever had anything to actually do with the subject of this thread, it's strayed far enough away from that at this point that it's no longer relevant.

Let's get back on topic.

Well... maybe if titan moderator rank is changed to Titan ModHaterator in honor of that rather awesome picture.

Thunder Glove

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16161 on: March 30, 2015, 01:50:45 AM »
That is definitely a photon torpedo noise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34FsrucOOBY

http://www.trekcore.com/audio/

Oh, man, it really is - though it's hardly the only place I've heard it.  It's the same sound that He-Man's sword makes when he transforms Cringer to Battlecat in the 1980s cartoon, and it turns up in a Shazam cartoon from 1980 as the weapon on Dr. Sivana's giant robot.  It's clearly just a stock sound effect.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 02:06:31 AM by Thunder Glove »

blacksly

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16162 on: March 30, 2015, 01:56:49 AM »
That is definitely a photon torpedo noise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34FsrucOOBY

http://www.trekcore.com/audio/

That power and Ultima Online's Energy Bolt have the two best attack sounds in any game I've played.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16163 on: March 30, 2015, 03:08:12 AM »
Almost 2 pages of entirely too long posts on who someone USED to be in a dead game is absolutely ridiculous. Is it really that important to prove or disprove someone's shred of importance?

It honestly wasn't even all that important back then.  There's a certain priority to getting the facts straight when asked, but beyond that not really.  Although importance isn't actually being discussed.  I think most people would concede in the grand scheme of things how DR worked turned out to be completely unimportant overall.

MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16164 on: March 30, 2015, 03:19:18 AM »
It honestly wasn't even all that important back then.  There's a certain priority to getting the facts straight when asked, but beyond that not really.  Although importance isn't actually being discussed.  I think most people would concede in the grand scheme of things how DR worked turned out to be completely unimportant overall.

It was important back then because it was one of the factors that lead to i13 PvP collapse and the PvP community for some reason believes we could stop i13 PvP changes from happening, but like you say in the grand scheme of things with the aftermath of i13 and its not most people, but everyone (overwhelming majority) from PvPers and PvEers would say how DR worked turned out to be completely unimportant overall after the issue went live.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 03:25:07 AM by MM3squints »

Tubbius

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16165 on: March 30, 2015, 04:32:22 AM »
When the game comes back, you should make a character like this.

If I could make a caterpillar looking worm guy, I so would.  :)  Most of my toons, though, were Santa lookalikes, such as my main, who was Tubbius, of Justice server.

Sinistar

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16166 on: March 30, 2015, 04:46:39 AM »
Oh, man, it really is - though it's hardly the only place I've heard it.  It's the same sound that He-Man's sword makes when he transforms Cringer to Battlecat in the 1980s cartoon, and it turns up in a Shazam cartoon from 1980 as the weapon on Dr. Sivana's giant robot.  It's clearly just a stock sound effect.

Yeah the photon torpedo sound affect has been recycled many times over the years.
In fearful COH-less days
In Raging COH-less nights
With Strong Hearts Full, we shall UNITE!
When all seems lost in the effort to bring CoH back to life,
Look to Cyberspace, where HOPE burns bright!

Sinistar

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16167 on: March 30, 2015, 04:47:08 AM »
If I could make a caterpillar looking worm guy, I so would.  :)  Most of my toons, though, were Santa lookalikes, such as my main, who was Tubbius, of Justice server.

I used to dress up a blaster of mine as a maniacal Santa during winter event, fun times
In fearful COH-less days
In Raging COH-less nights
With Strong Hearts Full, we shall UNITE!
When all seems lost in the effort to bring CoH back to life,
Look to Cyberspace, where HOPE burns bright!

RGladden

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16168 on: March 30, 2015, 06:18:46 PM »
I stumbled across this bit of news about the NCSoft/Nexon negotiations.  Apparently, NCSoft's administrators aren't budging an inch in their determination to keep from granting Nexon a member on the board or any other concessions that would cede any control over the company.

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20150210001271

So....if it's important that Nate and company have continuity in terms of negotiations this may well be good news for us...the faithful.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16169 on: March 30, 2015, 07:47:32 PM »
It was important back then because it was one of the factors that lead to i13 PvP collapse and the PvP community for some reason believes we could stop i13 PvP changes from happening, but like you say in the grand scheme of things with the aftermath of i13 and its not most people, but everyone (overwhelming majority) from PvPers and PvEers would say how DR worked turned out to be completely unimportant overall after the issue went live.

I think players were generally very negative on DR even before knowing the mechanics of how it worked, because of the very obvious large-scale changes it made to how tactical builds functioned.  Knowing the precise mechanics would have been useful if players were interested in working to tweak the existing system because making fine tweaks required really knowing how it worked.  But as the majority of players discussing the changes wanted it removed entirely, knowing how it worked mechanically became less useful to know.

In particular, I felt it was important to know that the choice of Alpha and Beta (aka DiminishingA and DiminishingB) didn't just tune the system, it actually created totally different diminishing curves for different attributes.  Some choices would create what I would call diminishing returns curves where higher incremental strength input created less incremental benefit, but there would always be an actual benefit.  But others (like the original parameters for tohit, say) created what I would call asymptotic curves where no matter how much strength you put into the system you were basically hard-capped to a particular value.  Knowing this, players could advocate for altering Alpha and Beta in ways that would create more reasonable diminishing curves, particularly when they affected related attributes (tohit and defense, say).  But very few players were interested in exploring such changes.

Unfortunately, no matter how many times I offered this guidance it rarely impressed anyone: when you don't like something, advocate changing it in a way that eliminates the worst aspects of it while adding benefits it didn't have before that can compensate for the rest.  Don't advocate ripping it out completely.  The first is in the realm of the possible.  The second is in the realm of tilting at windmills.  True in general, particularly true for the Paragon team.  Once your position becomes that you won't accept any solution that doesn't eliminate whole systems the devs have just released, you've lost.

You could kill a power or a power change or even a mission design in its crib.  But an entire system?  By the time a system reached us it was too late to advocate killing it entirely, at least not at its initial release.  Systems took a long time, once created, to be demonstrated too problematic to fix.  A canonical example would be how long Defiance 1.0 stuck around before being eliminated - by the devs themselves, not because of player-advocacy.  It wasn't until analysis suggested it was killing more players than it was helping that it was targeted for replacement.

The sad part about DR is that its effects on high-order PvP could have been essentially eliminated in two separate ways, but in the end no one capable of achieving either wanted to have anything to do with DR, or PvP at all.

MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16170 on: March 30, 2015, 08:09:25 PM »
The sad part about DR is that its effects on high-order PvP could have been essentially eliminated in two separate ways, but in the end no one capable of achieving either wanted to have anything to do with DR, or PvP at all.

One thing DR (i13 PvP) did that is surprising was made a general consensus in both PvPers and PvEers say it was a waste of time and resources and those resources would have been better buffing up PvE content and just leaving PvP alone. Then again its would have been a catch-22 with PvPers then say, "another issue and nothing is being done to improve the QoL of PvP." Kind of funny, if anything, i13 PvP could be use as a business case study (not just in MMOs, but in General) to not do massive streamlining changes and just piecemeal a large structural change to a system. In sure if they first rolled out DR (which was the least of the i13 PvP changes) people would have problems with it (like the imperfect guarantee spikes, granted that was also compounded with Heal Decay), but will eventually adapt to DR changes. Having DR along with Heal Decay+ new Mez system+ new Movement system just put DR in the same group with the 3 greater evils and just from guilty by association, made DR unpalatable.

Sinistar

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16171 on: March 30, 2015, 10:53:11 PM »
Diminishing returns could have been better received if it was implemented better from P.R. standpoint.  As I recall the attitude was "the changes are coming, tough luck if you don't like them we are not reversing them"

Then came the PVP io's which helped a bit but the public perception of DR was already tarnished.

Also as I recall DR was either not in affect in the Arena or it could be shut off.  If the Arena was hyped a bit more that may have helped

But once CoH makes its glorious return, I don't think PvP and DR will be an issue for a long time as people will be glad to have the game back and will likely just get the pvp zone badges and move on until they build up their army of characters.
In fearful COH-less days
In Raging COH-less nights
With Strong Hearts Full, we shall UNITE!
When all seems lost in the effort to bring CoH back to life,
Look to Cyberspace, where HOPE burns bright!

HEATSTROKE

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16172 on: March 30, 2015, 11:55:53 PM »
oh were back to going back and forth about the market, farming, AE and PvP...


well whatever keeps us going until 1000 pages..

Cailyn Alaynn

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16173 on: March 31, 2015, 12:00:50 AM »
A lot of CoHers will always find a way to fall back to those topics, Heatstroke. xD
I...might...not be entirely innocent of it myself. -innocently whistles-
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Sinistar

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16174 on: March 31, 2015, 12:16:23 AM »
A lot of CoHers will always find a way to fall back to those topics, Heatstroke. xD
I...might...not be entirely innocent of it myself. -innocently whistles-

Hi Irish_Girl! Good to see you
In fearful COH-less days
In Raging COH-less nights
With Strong Hearts Full, we shall UNITE!
When all seems lost in the effort to bring CoH back to life,
Look to Cyberspace, where HOPE burns bright!

Twisted Toon

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16175 on: March 31, 2015, 12:33:24 AM »
It is nice to see your screaming face again Irish_Girl.  :)

Mow, why isn't APR finished yet!?!  :P
Hope never abandons you, you abandon it. - George Weinberg

Hope ... is not a feeling; it is something you do. - Katherine Paterson

Nobody really cares if you're miserable, so you might as well be happy. - Cynthia Nelms

MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16176 on: March 31, 2015, 12:34:09 AM »
oh were back to going back and forth about the market, farming, AE and PvP...


well whatever keeps us going until 1000 pages..

2 Fruits meet each other. What dose one fruit say to the other?

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16177 on: March 31, 2015, 01:17:58 AM »
One thing DR (i13 PvP) did that is surprising was made a general consensus in both PvPers and PvEers say it was a waste of time and resources and those resources would have been better buffing up PvE content and just leaving PvP alone. Then again its would have been a catch-22 with PvPers then say, "another issue and nothing is being done to improve the QoL of PvP." Kind of funny, if anything, i13 PvP could be use as a business case study (not just in MMOs, but in General) to not do massive streamlining changes and just piecemeal a large structural change to a system. In sure if they first rolled out DR (which was the least of the i13 PvP changes) people would have problems with it (like the imperfect guarantee spikes, granted that was also compounded with Heal Decay), but will eventually adapt to DR changes. Having DR along with Heal Decay+ new Mez system+ new Movement system just put DR in the same group with the 3 greater evils and just from guilty by association, made DR unpalatable.

Unfortunately, I think its a fair criticism of Paragon in general that they were too focused on holistic system design and insufficiently skilled at system implementation.  Which is another way of saying they were good at coming up with ideas for systems and not so good at coming up with the numbers that would make those systems work.  So their approach to rebalancing PvP involved coming up with a lot of overlapping and interlocking systems, but each one suffered from poor numerical implementation.

Paragon believed in the release-and-tweak method of implementation: launch with "good enough" numbers and then use datamining to decide if they were the "right" numbers.  I am not a member of that religion.

Felderburg

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16178 on: March 31, 2015, 01:56:12 AM »
According to Memory Alpha, the photon torpedo sound is from the 1953 War of the Worlds movie, but this video clip makes it sound like that is clearly the phasers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blJGRdBtUz0

Edit: It's the skeleton ray that has the photon torpedo sounds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGxb3Yx7JYk

Further edit: Someone already discovered this: http://io9.com/10-weirdest-origins-of-classic-science-fiction-sound-ef-1590477009

Interesting article about TOS sounds: https://www.editorsguild.com/Magazine.cfm?ArticleID=722


I think most people would concede in the grand scheme of things how DR worked turned out to be completely unimportant overall.

DR formula = the real answer to life, the universe, and everything.

2 Fruits meet each other. What dose one fruit say to the other?

We're too young, we can't elope.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 02:15:45 AM by Felderburg »
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I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

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Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16179 on: March 31, 2015, 02:24:18 AM »
We're too young, we can't elope.

I would like to return to the AE missions about marketeers PvPing farmers, please.