New efforts!

[Kaos Arcanna]

I know we call it "fossil" fuel but they are rethinking that - some places that had all of the oil removed are once again full! It is possible that oil is created in a different process - in the near future it will be all about hydrogen anyways:

http://cellaenergy.com/

I was thinking of petroleum more for things like plastics than as a fuel source ... though I suppose  there are other ways to make plastics too.

[Ironwolf]

Here is what i was talking about http://viewzone.com/abioticoilx.html

The theory and in many places it is now considered fact - is that while some oil is made via fossil conversion, some is also made via conversion of magma from the center of the earth migrating upwards. This would explain why places like Texas have large stores at a depth of 10 miles or so.

[MWRuger]

Whenever someone says this, I feel the need to ask them: what qualifies as proof? What is merely evidence? Where is that line?

Historic Evidence:
Journals (personal)
Books
Inscriptions
Civil records
Tax Records
Warehouse Inventories
Coinage (Both Records from mints and actual coinage)
Histories
Critical reviews and summations of lost works.
Buildings
Archaeological
(some other stuff I couldn't remember when I was at work)

Prehistoric Evidence: (using the definition of cultures that do not have a written or historic record)
Grave goods
Works that discuss them written by contemporaries who have a written langauage
Pottery
Cities (archaeological)
Art
Mythology (often survives in other cultures through cultural diffusion.)

The more of any of these things that confirm that an event occurred or that a person said or did a thing the more weight historians give it. Our understanding of recent events is obviously more well documented, but even events in the last century are hotly debated.

Deduction, speculation and lack of evidence is not evidence. Deduction may be used to explain what we think the evidence means, but it is not in itself evidence of anything except our thoughts.

[Shadowsmith]

Here is what i was talking about http://viewzone.com/abioticoilx.html

The theory and in many places it is now considered fact - is that while some oil is made via fossil conversion, some is also made via conversion of magma from the center of the earth migrating upwards. This would explain why places like Texas have large stores at a depth of 10 miles or so.

I know I haven't posted much here (or at all, I don't remember) but I have to speak up on this. The theories of abiogenic petroleum have been scientifically discredited and are obsolete. It is possible that abiogenic processes can generate minute amounts of oil and can generate some methane and other simple hydrocarbons.

The presence of oil ten miles below the surface is easy to explain with plate tectonics. The west coast of the USA is a subduction zone with the Pacific plate passing below the North American plate. As it does so, it carries massive amounts of biological material (primarily dead plankton) that has drifted down to the ocean floor. This material is then slowly converted into complex hydrocarbons under incredible heat and pressure.

Here is a site that includes some useful information: http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/012805_no_free_pt3.shtml

[Ironwolf]

I would agree but there are some sites out there that continue - one of which is in Turkey and has been known to be a source of methane gas for literally thousands of years. Your reference is from 2005 and some of our present period still show it as possible.

A few other sites have been found as deep as 40,000 feet into granite.

I guess like all science - nothing is ever completely settled! Eggs used to be bad for you, salt was bad for you - now they are saying high cholesteral foods - don't give you high cholesteral.

It has also been found in astronomy cases where jets of hot gas appear to be traveling at 6 times or more faster than the speed of light! They are still seeking causes for that one!

[FloatingFatMan]

I find it unintelligent to live without having something bigger than yourself to believe in. A

There is nothing in this universe bigger than me, therefore I am forced to only believe in myself! :p

[JanessaVR]

Where are you going to find coal or petroleum except on a world that has hosted life?

Coal is mostly carbon, along with some hydrogen, sulfur, oxygen, and nitrogen.  Petroleum is hydrocarbons.

So you're primarily asking where a space-faring species is going to find carbon and hydrogen.  The answer is:  "If they throw a rock, they'll hit some."  If they want those specific chemicals, they can assemble them to order.

[ivanhedgehog]

Actually, looking at our current technological development, we're likely to master nanotechnology before FTL travel (if we ever do manage to crack FTL).  Generational/sleeper ships might end up being the only way to reach other star systems, though I hope not.  And again, there are no useful natural resources here they couldn't get elsewhere for less effort.  If they actually found some value in our world's biology, a library of cell samples would give them all the blueprints they need to build more - any "mass harvesting" is hugely wasted effort.

read "The Road Not Taken" by Harry Turtledove. about a species with anti gravity, ftl drive and matchlock weapons that tries to invade earth.

[JanessaVR]

read "The Road Not Taken" by Harry Turtledove. about a species with anti gravity, ftl drive and matchlock weapons that tries to invade earth.

I'm familiar with it.  If we stumble across "easy FTL" next week, it has relevance.  If not, it's just an amusing little story.

[Arcana]

It has also been found in astronomy cases where jets of hot gas appear to be traveling at 6 times or more faster than the speed of light! They are still seeking causes for that one!

Actually, most of them turned out to be geometric illusions.  I am unaware of any that have definitively been proven to not be.

[Joshex]

I know we call it "fossil" fuel but they are rethinking that - some places that had all of the oil removed are once again full! It is possible that oil is created in a different process - in the near future it will be all about hydrogen anyways:

http://cellaenergy.com/

Currently, they are pumping the oil wells full of water in the middle east and in other oil fields so they can get the oil from the bottom, they say that the oil is being replenished, and that is true, but not at the rate of consumption.

FYI water is not as good as oil at stopping the transmission of earthquakes and can cause other serious erosion to popup anywhere under the vast circumference of oil well in the forms of massive sinkholes.

Yes you are correct though natural Oil can be remade, it's a natural part of the sedimentation process of former biological organisms and other cell based structures, which actively takes place every day and can be completed from start to finish in as quick as a few weeks.

However to admit that requires the abandonment of the multi-billion year theory of earth's history. This is something modern science just wont do.

[Kaos Arcanna]

Coal is mostly carbon, along with some hydrogen, sulfur, oxygen, and nitrogen.  Petroleum is hydrocarbons.

So you're primarily asking where a space-faring species is going to find carbon and hydrogen.  The answer is:  "If they throw a rock, they'll hit some."  If they want those specific chemicals, they can assemble them to order.

They can? How do you know they can?

There's lots of carbon and hydrogen on Earth but we're still digging/pumping the stuff out of the ground rather than making it.


That isn't to say you're wrong.

Maybe you have to master so many other things that by the time you have the capacity for FTL travel there's no reason to do so. You've solved all your material needs. You've worked out a peaceful coexistence with your species. Mastered your environment so you can handle any possible natural disaster from outer space or native to your planet that you don't need to go anywhere else or see anything else.

[FloatingFatMan]

They can? How do you know they can?

There's lots of carbon and hydrogen on Earth but we're still digging/pumping the stuff out of the ground rather than making it.

But not because of any technological reason. We dig it up rather than make it purely for financial reasons.  Technologically, it's rather easy to make the stuff; it's just cheaper to dig it up.

[duane]

when the Cat Overlords arrive they will not have a need for fossil fuels as time and space will bend to their will.

https://images.weserv.nl/?url=scienceblogs.de%2Fastrodicticum-simplex%2Fwp-content%2Fblogs.dir%2F28%2Ffiles%2F2012%2F06%2Fi-ef784738bf960c4fa1685330f74c4f7b-funny-pictures-teleportation-machine-needs-some-work.jpg

last cat pic, I promise.

[Arcana]

I guess like all science - nothing is ever completely settled!

Also, while the jury might still be out on gravity, I have better things to do then wait for that jury to make up their minds.

One of the challenges Einstein himself faced when constructing his general theory of relativity is that it had to look like Newtonian gravity under normal observational conditions.  Because while *technically* nothing in Science is ever *absolutely* settled, Newtonian gravity is as close to certain as certain gets in human observational contexts.  No one seriously tries to "overturn" Newtonian gravity because its simply been confirmed too much to ever likely be wrong.

That's how Science works.  Sometimes scientific hypotheses turn out to be wrong when enough data is collected, but when observational techniques become sufficiently refined a theory can be confirmed with enough direct observation to be considered demonstrated.  GPS satellites, for example, only work because they use calculations that presume both special relativity and general relativity are correct, and they work.  Anything that tries to "overturn" Einstein will have the same problem Einstein had when he came up with relativity (both kinds): your new theory has to not only make new predictions, it has to explain all of the other ones that came before that the old theory explained perfectly well.  Special and General relativity aren't "settled" but if they are wrong they have to be wrong in ways we can't yet observe, and contrawise the correct theory has to be essentially identical to relativity in all the ways we currently can.  In that sense, SR and GR are "settled" for all the practical applications we can currently use those theories for.  And that's not going to change, anymore than the fact that even though we now know GR, NASA still uses plain old Newtonian calculations to plot the trajectories of our inertial spacecraft.  Because Newton is "settled enough" that it still works, and will likely always work for that specific purpose.

[JanessaVR]

That isn't to say you're wrong.  Maybe you have to master so many other things that by the time you have the capacity for FTL travel there's no reason to do so. You've solved all your material needs.

That's my general argument.  Well, not that we still won't have a need/want for FTL travel as well.

You've worked out a peaceful coexistence with your species.

Actually, achieving the first does not even remotely imply achieving the second.

[Joshex]

One of the challenges Einstein himself faced when constructing his general theory of relativity is that it had to look like Newtonian gravity under normal observational conditions.  Because while *technically* nothing in Science is ever *absolutely* settled, Newtonian gravity is as close to certain as certain gets in human observational contexts.  No one seriously tries to "overturn" Newtonian gravity because its simply been confirmed too much to ever likely be wrong.

ummm... should I let this one slide? NAH it's far too fun.

newtonian gravity is one of the most primitive scientific explanations in history. "Uhg, thing fall! Ugh gravity!"

well Mr newton thats all well and nice to slap a name willy nilly on the interaction, but that doesn't explain it in a scientific context.

I've stated what gravity is multiple times. it's a force interaction between magnetism and electricity both on a field level and an atomic level. Electrons are drawn towards a magnet while in motion and charged, electrons on an atom are constantly in motion and have a charge therefore pull, therefore NO GRAVITY. the electricity arcs when it nears the magnet causing an electromagnetic field to form this field emits from the magnetic poles and collides at the magnetic equator causing static discharges into the atmosphere these discharges become conducted by the chemicals in our atmosphere and become electrical charges. at the same time this whole process re-magnetizes the core due to electricity constantly passing by the molten nickle generating a magnetic current. That is Planetary gravity, which stops shortly after leaving the atmosphere in about the same place the electromagnetic field arcs to. Cosmic Gravity follows rules of Polar interactions as each body in space renders its own poles.

The practice of having to explain this actually does help me, because each time I make it shorter and more conclusive. but the main outcome is, THERE IS NO GRAVITY it's not it's own force! it's a force interaction of the other forces.

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

ummm... should I let this one slide? NAH it's far too fun.

newtonian gravity is one of the most primitive scientific explanations in history. "Uhg, thing fall! Ugh gravity!"

well Mr newton thats all well and nice to slap a name willy nilly on the interaction, but that doesn't explain it in a scientific context.

I've stated what gravity is multiple times. it's a force interaction between magnetism and electricity both on a field level and an atomic level. Electrons are drawn towards a magnet while in motion and charged, electrons on an atom are constantly in motion and have a charge therefore pull, therefore NO GRAVITY. the electricity arcs when it nears the magnet causing an electromagnetic field to form this field emits from the magnetic poles and collides at the magnetic equator causing static discharges into the atmosphere these discharges become conducted by the chemicals in our atmosphere and become electrical charges. at the same time this whole process re-magnetizes the core due to electricity constantly passing by the molten nickle generating a magnetic current. That is Planetary gravity, which stops shortly after leaving the atmosphere in about the same place the electromagnetic field arcs to. Cosmic Gravity follows rules of Polar interactions as each body in space renders its own poles.

The practice of having to explain this actually does help me, because each time I make it shorter and more conclusive. but the main outcome is, THERE IS NO GRAVITY it's not it's own force! it's a force interaction of the other forces.

At this point it's obvious you're either just trying to wind people up by spewing crackpot gibberish at them or you take the same approach to science that Kanye West takes to literature.

[Mistress Urd]

If I had to place my bets, I would say the interstellar technology humanity will master first will be robotic exploration and seeding technology.  Basically, the technology to create robotic exploration craft that can explore nearby solar systems, and if they meet suitable criteria set up automated factories that could build bases of operations that could live off the land, explore the planet and its solar system, and eventually build next generation explorers to take the next hop, all while reporting back to Earth.

If we wanted humans to go, I think its more likely we develop ways to clone people at the destination.  I think the hardest technology and the one most likely to appear last would be the one where person X actually on Earth gets to the destination themselves in some physical form, barring a radical advance in interstellar propulsion technology.

Speed is the big problem, we have a long ways to go just to get to 1% the speed of light. I'm sure we will eventually get things light enough that 1% is possible.

[MM3squints]

For some reason I had a dream where CoX return but was Omni supported (http://www.virtuix.com/). So weird