New efforts!

[Power Gamer]

Yup they sold you disks with the licensed software, correct?

I would guess that you still have said disks? Therefore you have the physical product sold by NCSoft, and their responsibility ends there. Sadly.

Keep trying, at least you are on topic.  ;D

[Burnt Toast]

1. You are wrong... we have no claim for a winnable lawsuit. Any lawyer who tells you otherwise will simply be milking you for money. No lawyer would touch that kind of lawsuit unless you pay them upfront...which should tell you something right there.


2. There is absolutely no reason two years after the closure and in the middle of negotiations to buy the IP that anyone should be making claims in public that we should/could sue NCSoft.


3. No the wikipedia.com article does not state that the Marvel lawsuit had anything to do with the shutdown. (I literally just checked). If somehow it did state tha earliert...it was an act of vandalism which wikipedia has been warned about from over-zealous ex-CoH players. Such rumors have absolutely no validity.


I'm trying to be as polite as possible, but you seem to post things akin to this often, and these type of posts do nothing to benefit the community.

Service yes, I agree what I said is in regard to the physical products sold to us. Those were not under the EULA and in their text grant us admission to play the content we bought, check the cases. It's why they stopped selling disks. because they violate this: "Any Service, Content or Software supplied by NCsoft is licensed, not sold, by NCsoft." this is the introduction text to the license section, if the introduction does not match, then this license section does not hold sway over said product or the abilities it grants.

I believe the disk content goes up to good Vs evil or going rogue, it's been so long I forget. correcting myself it's good vs evil and mac special edition.

also while looking for the answer to what I forgot it seems wikipedia lists the suit with marvel as the shutdown reason. Can we trust that?

[Joshex]

Yup they sold you disks with the licensed software, correct?

I would guess that you still have said disks? Therefore you have the physical product sold by NCSoft, and their responsibility ends there. Sadly.

Keep trying, at least you are on topic.  ;D

heh, yeah. I'm really just over hopeful that somewhere somehow NCSoft left themselves open.

1. You are wrong... we have no claim for a winnable lawsuit. Any lawyer who tells you otherwise will simply be milking you for money. No lawyer would touch that kind of lawsuit unless you pay them upfront...which should tell you something right there.


2. There is absolutely no reason two years after the closure and in the middle of negotiations to buy the IP that anyone should be making claims in public that we should/could sue NCSoft.


3. No the wikipedia.com article does not state that the Marvel lawsuit had anything to do with the shutdown. (I literally just checked). If somehow it did state tha earliert...it was an act of vandalism which wikipedia has been warned about from over-zealous ex-CoH players. Such rumors have absolutely no validity.


I'm trying to be as polite as possible, but you seem to post things akin to this often, and these type of posts do nothing to benefit the community.

And so I keep trying things like referenced there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Heroes

"Suit by Marvel

In November, 2004, Marvel Comics filed a lawsuit against City of Heroes developer Cryptic Studios, publisher NCsoft, and game administrator NC Interactive (NCI), alleging that the game not only allowed, but actively promoted, the creation of characters who infringe copyrights and trademarks owned by Marvel. The suit sought unspecified damages and an injunction halting further sales and shutting down the game.[48]"

still there.

[Burnt Toast]

The 2004 lawsuit had nothing to do with the closure in 2012. What you quoted doesn't even reference the closure.

heh, yeah. I'm really just over hopeful that somewhere somehow NCSoft left themselves open.

And so I keep trying things like referenced there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Heroes

"Suit by Marvel

In November, 2004, Marvel Comics filed a lawsuit against City of Heroes developer Cryptic Studios, publisher NCsoft, and game administrator NC Interactive (NCI), alleging that the game not only allowed, but actively promoted, the creation of characters who infringe copyrights and trademarks owned by Marvel. The suit sought unspecified damages and an injunction halting further sales and shutting down the game.[48]"

still there.

[BadWolf]

heh, yeah. I'm really just over hopeful that somewhere somehow NCSoft left themselves open.

So your logic is, "Well, NCSoft has an entire team of highly-paid lawyers writing their legal agreements, based on industry standards that have been court-tested on multiple occasions, then submitted them to other lawyers who reviewed them multiple times over the course of several months, resubmitting them back to the first team of lawyers for changes based on their years of experience in copyright law and their teams of paralegal researchers poring over every single court decision related to the field for the past several decades, until they were certain they had an ironclad contract, one which every single end user agreed to each and every single time they launched the game...but I'm a pretty smart dude! I'm sure I can find a loophole they forgot!"

Good luck!

[FloatingFatMan]

in regards to the CoH shutdown and the wildstar shutdown or any MMO shut down this is a backup statement if negotiations don't work;

We bought physical CD's and DVDs of a game, it did state a subscription and internet connection were required to play the game, it did not state this was subject to the availability of subscriptions, nor that it was the developers right to shut down the game.

We created characters, which by the City of heroes EULA/ToS are defined as entirely owned by us the creators (to avoid legal liability). we now own those characters but cannot use them in the method we desire, this is a breach of our rights.

The game that we paid for, was shut down/sunset even though there was an alternative for the company to merely place it in self-run maintenance mode which would be beneficial to both parties.

failure to have done so and the choice of shutting down the medium has resulted in a purchased product being taken from us the customer, attempts were made to 'buy us out' by paying us back subscription fees during the final months. However the wording used in this buy-out did not proclaim that we were giving up our rights to the parts of the game we had purchased rights to play previously, Architect edition, heroes and villains edition ETC. The sales of the right to play this content was not reimbursed nor stipulated in the buy-out.

Compensation for time wasted, using a product for entertainment achievements only to have all those achievements taken away is defined under business trade as an offense where compensation is due for time spent on the product. In short they issued a partial buy-out but not a total recall. The total recall would force them to pay back all subscription fees in the history of the game's life as well as the money earned from the sales of all booster packs in compensation for time wasted.

Aaah... Internet lawyers... They never fail to amuse. :p

[Ironwolf]

Some folks are saying why is it taking so long - if you read the last Downix posts, they are negotiating for more things. One side says we will give you this - can you give us that and a back and forth conversation.

This is all GOOD news. They are talking and everyone is dealing so far in good faith. This is the healthly type of give and take you want to have at a table. If one side says we want this and only this and we will only give you that - then things can go sour really fast. I am certain they are all under an NDA right now. This is again good news. This means that the deal is being taken seriously and not just talking well we might be willing to do that.

I know it sucks, I am every bit as sorry as the rest of you that it hasn't gone through yet. I do however know how big companies work and one thing potentially in our favor is the gap between Wildstar slowly sinking and Lineage's new expansion they may want some money in the bank to offset this - being able to say in a meeting well we were able to sell some of our older software - they may be open to move a little faster.

[Ironwolf]

The Marvel suit everyone mentions does not affect anything. Marvel had to file suit to protect their traemarks and copyrights. Once filed - and a deal made to show that any and all seen to enfringe would be removed and Generic heroed - the suit was dropped.

Again, Marvel MUST file suit or else they could lose their IP.

[Angel Phoenix77]

Some folks are saying why is it taking so long - if you read the last Downix posts, they are negotiating for more things. One side says we will give you this - can you give us that and a back and forth conversation.

This is all GOOD news. They are talking and everyone is dealing so far in good faith. This is the healthly type of give and take you want to have at a table. If one side says we want this and only this and we will only give you that - then things can go sour really fast. I am certain they are all under an NDA right now. This is again good news. This means that the deal is being taken seriously and not just talking well we might be willing to do that.

I know it sucks, I am every bit as sorry as the rest of you that it hasn't gone through yet. I do however know how big companies work and one thing potentially in our favor is the gap between Wildstar slowly sinking and Lineage's new expansion they may want some money in the bank to offset this - being able to say in a meeting well we were able to sell some of our older software - they may be open to move a little faster.

for me this is good news and they are still talking and that is the important part :)

[Azrael]

Some folks are saying why is it taking so long - if you read the last Downix posts, they are negotiating for more things. One side says we will give you this - can you give us that and a back and forth conversation.

This is all GOOD news. They are talking and everyone is dealing so far in good faith. This is the healthly type of give and take you want to have at a table. If one side says we want this and only this and we will only give you that - then things can go sour really fast. I am certain they are all under an NDA right now. This is again good news. This means that the deal is being taken seriously and not just talking well we might be willing to do that.

I know it sucks, I am every bit as sorry as the rest of you that it hasn't gone through yet. I do however know how big companies work and one thing potentially in our favor is the gap between Wildstar slowly sinking and Lineage's new expansion they may want some money in the bank to offset this - being able to say in a meeting well we were able to sell some of our older software - they may be open to move a little faster.

Yes.  That sounds about right.  NDA and all.  The fact that the talks haven't fallen through indicates that talks are progressing and increasingly being taken more seriously.

I'll just be happy to get Legacy Issue 23 back.  (Starting from scratch, rolling that Elec/Elec dominator from Level 1...:)

Having  the IP and the rights to expand the IP in general and develop CoH 1.5 Renaissance on the Unreal 4 Engine..?  Gravy.

I'm sure if/when the deal goes through it will be like a bolt from the blue.

It's the best MMO I've ever played and the only game I played in the last ten years.  2nd best game in my all time favourite games list.

There was nothing quite like it.  Unique in 'feel' and play.

I'd like the opportunity to play it in Ultra Mode!  :D

Azrael.

[Blackgrue]

The Marvel suit everyone mentions does not affect anything. Marvel had to file suit to protect their traemarks and copyrights. Once filed - and a deal made to show that any and all seen to enfringe would be removed and Generic heroed - the suit was dropped.

Again, Marvel MUST file suit or else they could lose their IP.

The move they did against Cryptic right after (apparently part of their deal involved the making of a marvel MMO which they pulled out of halfway through, which is of course what became Champions Online) was a pretty dick move...

[Joshex]

ok, I drop it, I don't want to see this thread boil out of control.

just to clarify, the marvel suit was brought up only because wikipedia lists the shutdown as an after effect allow me to make it red (I agree it's wrong and the wording on wiki should be changed, it doesn't say that in the articles posted as reference!).

"Suit by Marvel

In November, 2004, Marvel Comics filed a lawsuit against City of Heroes developer Cryptic Studios, publisher NCsoft, and game administrator NC Interactive (NCI), alleging that the game not only allowed, but actively promoted, the creation of characters who infringe copyrights and trademarks owned by Marvel. The suit sought unspecified damages and an injunction halting further sales and shutting down the game.[48]"

just thought I'd highlight what I'm mentioning so it's not missed a third time.

It should read "an injunction halting further misuse of their characters"

Again to burnt and power, Ironwolf and others thankyou for answering my questions and straightening out my manner of thinking.

Also to Ironwolf Thankyou that is good news, somehow I must have missed it in this thread!

indeed more negotiations is very good. I thought it was just a waiting game.

indeed it is a very dangerous process, care must be taken to not ask for too much, always start with "would you like anything more?" if stated "can we get [this] in return? no? what can we get in return?".

Yes.  That sounds about right.  NDA and all.  The fact that the talks haven't fallen through indicates that talks are progressing and increasingly being taken more seriously.

I'll just be happy to get Legacy Issue 23 back.  (Starting from scratch, rolling that Elec/Elec dominator from Level 1...:)

Azrael.

Those are pretty awesome, had one myself it was even decent with only basic IO's but it does have it's faults, I found the secret to fixing those faults lies in focusing on making it a team support unit, aka switch it to a controller and use emp/electric.

I can't wait to hop back on that and my will/elec tank that thing was, truly a tank like an unstoppable electri buzzsaw leveling 3 hordes in record time..

I never got a chance to truly test it in PvP though, best I got was in Warburg was hoping to PvP at 50. I just hope my friends will come back when the game goes live again, some I lost contact with.

[MM3squints]

ok, I drop it, I don't want to see this thread boil out of control.

<Insert Retort>

I think this is funny on so many levels. If you wanted to drop it you wouldn't have put in the last part, you would have left it out. Seems like you want the last word and by saying I drop it, you don't want any other opinions or fact to conflict with your retort.

[Joshex]

I think this is funny on so many levels. If you wanted to drop it you wouldn't have put in the last part, you would have left it out. Seems like you want the last word and by saying I drop it, you don't want any other opinions or fact to conflict with your retort.

nope I was correcting myself. by making what I was saying more obvious just in case they didn't see it so that somehting would be done about it. In fact the point of restating it this time was to clarify what I was pointing out for the purpose of being corrected if I was wrong in my interpretation of it.

by all means correct me.

[Burnt Toast]

The suit in 2004 sought (wanted to) shut down CoH and halt further sales due to copyright issues in 2004. That suit was settled and had absolutely nothing to do with NCSoft shutting CoH down in 2012. You are misreading it and thinking that the suit halted sales and shut down CoH...which it did not do. CoH went on for 7 years (minus a few weeks) after the suit was settled on December 12, 2005.


FYI: The last time the Marvel lawsuit section was edited in Wikipedia was on June 16, 2008....

ok, I drop it, I don't want to see this thread boil out of control.

just to clarify, the marvel suit was brought up only because wikipedia lists the shutdown as an after effect allow me to make it red (I agree it's wrong and the wording on wiki should be changed, it doesn't say that in the articles posted as reference!).

"Suit by Marvel

In November, 2004, Marvel Comics filed a lawsuit against City of Heroes developer Cryptic Studios, publisher NCsoft, and game administrator NC Interactive (NCI), alleging that the game not only allowed, but actively promoted, the creation of characters who infringe copyrights and trademarks owned by Marvel. The suit sought unspecified damages and an injunction halting further sales and shutting down the game.[48]"

just thought I'd highlight what I'm mentioning so it's not missed a third time.

[GenericHero05]

Some folks are saying why is it taking so long - if you read the last Downix posts, they are negotiating for more things.

Am I over-reading this? This sounds like a very basic agreement has been made and now they are now trying to work out the "little" extras. If that's the case, this is way better than good news.

[Sinistar]

The move they did against Cryptic right after (apparently part of their deal involved the making of a marvel MMO which they pulled out of halfway through, which is of course what became Champions Online) was a pretty dick move...

\

Don't forget what they tried to pull over on Richard Garriot

[Harpospoke]

in regards to the CoH shutdown and the wildstar shutdown or any MMO shut down this is a backup statement if negotiations don't work;

We bought physical CD's and DVDs of a game, it did state a subscription and internet connection were required to play the game, it did not state this was subject to the availability of subscriptions, nor that it was the developers right to shut down the game.

We created characters, which by the City of heroes EULA/ToS are defined as entirely owned by us the creators (to avoid legal liability). we now own those characters but cannot use them in the method we desire, this is a breach of our rights.

The game that we paid for, was shut down/sunset even though there was an alternative for the company to merely place it in self-run maintenance mode which would be beneficial to both parties.

failure to have done so and the choice of shutting down the medium has resulted in a purchased product being taken from us the customer, attempts were made to 'buy us out' by paying us back subscription fees during the final months. However the wording used in this buy-out did not proclaim that we were giving up our rights to the parts of the game we had purchased rights to play previously, Architect edition, heroes and villains edition ETC. The sales of the right to play this content was not reimbursed nor stipulated in the buy-out.

Compensation for time wasted, using a product for entertainment achievements only to have all those achievements taken away is defined under business trade as an offense where compensation is due for time spent on the product. In short they issued a partial buy-out but not a total recall. The total recall would force them to pay back all subscription fees in the history of the game's life as well as the money earned from the sales of all booster packs in compensation for time wasted.

As others pointed out, not much of a case.

But all this will change for gamers eventually.   Not because anyone is breaking laws...but because online gaming companies are pissing off their customers over and over and over again.   That sort of thing always bites industries in the butt.   They can get away with it for a while, but it is a doomed business model.

[Harpospoke]

Some folks are saying why is it taking so long - if you read the last Downix posts, they are negotiating for more things. One side says we will give you this - can you give us that and a back and forth conversation.

This is all GOOD news. They are talking and everyone is dealing so far in good faith. This is the healthly type of give and take you want to have at a table. If one side says we want this and only this and we will only give you that - then things can go sour really fast. I am certain they are all under an NDA right now. This is again good news. This means that the deal is being taken seriously and not just talking well we might be willing to do that.

I know it sucks, I am every bit as sorry as the rest of you that it hasn't gone through yet. I do however know how big companies work and one thing potentially in our favor is the gap between Wildstar slowly sinking and Lineage's new expansion they may want some money in the bank to offset this - being able to say in a meeting well we were able to sell some of our older software - they may be open to move a little faster.

I'm definitely taking silence as good news.   

[Joshex]

Thankyou Burnt Toast, so I was misreading it. Thats what I wanted to know.

Next topic is the current negotiations for little extras, do you think it would be possible that we could engineer some sort of benefits to barter with?

for example we could say; a group of fans on CoH Titan is prepared to actively become 'NCSoft pushers' (as in go out and encourage random people(gamers, computer users) to play NCSoft and encourage people to make small purchases/ buy subscriptions here and there) for a [set amount of time] in exchange for something?

or titan network video-game dev teams are prepared to work together to manufacture mobile apps for you in exchange for something CoH related?

As others pointed out, not much of a case.

But all this will change for gamers eventually.   Not because anyone is breaking laws...but because online gaming companies are pissing off their customers over and over and over again.   That sort of thing always bites industries in the butt.   They can get away with it for a while, but it is a doomed business model.

this also brings me to a point about business standards for MMO companies, I think that is best saved for another topic though as it definitely needs some discussion.