Author Topic: I know  (Read 20195 times)

Captain Electric

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 674
  • Crime doesn't pay, evildoers!
    • CoH Faces Profile
Re: I know
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2014, 06:14:36 AM »

Pinnacle Blue

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 130
  • Pinnacle Server is best server.
Re: I know
« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2014, 06:52:07 AM »
Warshades don't take Alphas.  They give Alphas.

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: I know
« Reply #62 on: January 28, 2014, 08:56:51 AM »
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: I know
« Reply #63 on: January 28, 2014, 10:07:34 AM »

thunderforce

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I know
« Reply #64 on: January 28, 2014, 11:05:42 AM »
When taxes are used more on things one does not support than on things one does, it is remarkably akin to theft.

Let's be clear; no, it isn't. This is basically libertarian propaganda in favour of government that does nothing except prevents certain kinds of violence and enforces property rights (including, curiously, the complicated system of artificial monopolies called "intellectual property" (1), a purely state-created subsidy for creative works, which must take a bit of doublethinking; if the market can take care of everything else, why can't it take care of this?) because they are somehow sacred; a Humpty Dumpty exercise in using words to mean whatever you choose them to mean. "Theft" has a meaning, and this ain't it.

Quote
There was this whole revolution fought over "no taxation without representation."

Well, I'm not proposing to take the vote away from anyone.

Quote
There's a reason any legitimate taxation takes the form of a fungible good: it is the least onerous and most equal way to take the "share" of government costs from those for whom the government (at least theoretically) works.

I can think of something less onerous; something you aren't using anymore and have no intention of ever using. The assertion that fungible goods are least onerous is completely unsupported here.

Quote
Nobody has a right to property created or bought by another, outside of bankruptcy. His heirs inherit because of his right to choose disposition of his property.

Actually, in most jurisdictions his heirs don't inherit all of it; the state takes a decent wodge - and good for it; I can hardly think of anyone who can less onerously be taxed than dead people.

Quote
Taxes are monetary because it's the least invasive form of legitemized theft: it takes a wholly replaceable good - that is, something fungible - rather than something that, even if he labored just as hard for ten times as long, he might never be able to replicate or replace.

This doesn't really make sense for two reasons. First of all, if I write a book and the state declines to give me an artificial monopoly on copies of it - not "taking anything" from me, note, but declining to give me something, which is what the situation actually would be with works being placed in the public domain - I can still make copies of it as well as anyone, so I'm certainly not in the situation that I can't replicate or replace it. I've lost the ability to make money off it, but again; if I own a bicycle which I plan to sell, and the government gives everyone a bicycle, that is unfortunate for me but it is absurd to argue that the government has stolen my bicycle.

Secondly, it is very much the case that if you take fungible goods from someone, they might never be able - no matter how long and hard they labour - to replace them. There are two kinds of rich people; clever people who know they're lucky, and lucky people who think they're clever; and equally amongst the comfortably-off middle class (like me, I admit) success is a matter of good fortune as well as wits and ability; most poor people work harder than any of us, but are often in the situation where a run of bad luck can ruin them regardless, and once you're on skid row you don't tend to come back.

1) In all fairness to "libertarians", not all of them favour state interference here.

thunderforce

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I know
« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2014, 11:09:41 AM »
So query me this, those in the know. If I take a work of intelligent property - say, widget.exe - and decompress it and compress it using my own proprietary compression software, is it now a new IP, seeing as how the 1's and 0's and even the file size are all vastly different from the original? Just wondering how specific can IP rights go. I'm not trying to take over Joshex's original them, I've just always wondered about this.

Yes. Copyright law is typically defined in terms like "derivative works", and what that means is down to a combination of case law and the courts. Of course, the courts sometimes get it wrong - especially in cases involving technology - but in principle, if a reasonable well-informed person would say it was a derivative work, it's covered. What you propose is a bit analogous to retypesetting a book in a different font and page size, with a different colour cover; a caveman with no idea what writing was would conclude it was an entirely different object, but to us it's the same book.

ROBOKiTTY

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 183
  • KiTTYRiffic
    • KiTTYLand
Re: I know
« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2014, 09:11:42 AM »
Excellent analysis. ;D
Have you played with a KiTTY today?

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: I know
« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2014, 07:27:41 AM »
It's cool I think. Nobody got nasty and it was a pretty good discussion about IP, copyright, trademark and corporate media holders.

Pretty hard to talk about this stuff without some discussion of public vs private rights and how they intersect with the law and politics, since they are inextricably bound together. If we can't rationally discuss the philosophical underpinnings or our society, government and world we will be left with nothing but the most powerful saying "Because I can, that's way!" I can't beleive that any thoughtful person, right or left, would envision that as a pleasant world to live in.

If reasonable people can not discuss our problems and beliefs, how will we ever find common ground?

indeed, government is a matter of 'assumed power' that is power based on support of those willing to join your efforts with enough support of people who actually care about a topic any governmental change is possible.

well as soon as I catch up with my math homework I'll attempt to word this better to accomodate against all possibilities of abuse. - linear algebra is no joke when the textbook gives you questions whose principles have not be directly explained in the text or examples.

however if someone else wants to try at it, be my guest, the quicker it's done the better, doesn't matter who does it. ;)
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2014, 07:52:54 AM »
indeed, government is a matter of 'assumed power' that is power based on support of those willing to join your efforts with enough support of people who actually care about a topic any governmental change is possible.

yep. That about sums up about how it works. The ones that cast the wider net and more support have greater chance of success. And more support can be gained by having people being able to relate.

With the one tough question that is easy to ask but harder to answer when trying to get people to join the cause  is "Why should one care about that goal?" Then it goes to relating. While on the other side of the fence many people are quick to dismiss people that right now do not see any issue with copyright laws or the way corporations can shut down game. Many forget they was once on the other side of the fence. That can be a strength and a great weakness. A strength, because it can be used, if used with understanding and not judgmental, to relate or it can be a bane, coming off as simply only caring now and wanting to do something only now because it was personally effecting when if the shutdown never happened, would have given two craps about the corporations running games.

Then there is so much vastness in the way corporation run thing and plenty of disgruntled folks out there especially in this day and age that are down right pissed at corporations. Just have to find a way to relate, and I guarantee you, when people get together and ask for something, and use their power, all the money corporate money it the world cant stop it. But have to be more warm welcoming, and humble though and remember a little more than a year many people wasn't thinking about copyright, corporate closing games, and whether it's morally right or not and etc. Just like many that still have their game to play are thinking. COX wasn't the first game, and it definitely isn't the last game to be shut down. The question is, should a game shut down only be an issue only when it personally affects a person? Or is this an issue that should have been nipped in the budding stage? Well the latter's time  have past and maybe it's time for full blown weed killer, but at the same time, to change it, if that is the route that some are interested in taking, it cant come off as vindictive or simple looking like it's merely to punish corporations because then in the end it turns more against than for. But the real reason is more internal honesty. One have to ask, if they are doing it simply because the yare pissed because their game, and only care about their game got shut down so now it's an issue or is it true belief that something is wrong with the system. Because the government from local, city, state, to even federal gets all kinds of complaints day in and day out about businesses and corporations and have become exceeding efficient at weeding out those that seem to be pissed simply over one incident because the person didn't take the time to read the fine print or something that is truly suspect.

Floride

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
  • Badgehunter Extraordinaire
Re: I know
« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2014, 09:55:00 AM »
With the one tough question that is easy to ask but harder to answer when trying to get people to join the cause  is "Why should one care about that goal?" Then it goes to relating. While on the other side of the fence many people are quick to dismiss people that right now do not see any issue with copyright laws or the way corporations can shut down game.
Huzzah!!
After the shutdown, few people IRL understood my pain, and asked that very question. Didn't take me long to figure out why: It's a paradox. If they have to ask, they are already demonstrating they are incapable of understanding the answer.
For instance, if someone asks "Why should one care about rising taxes?", they are demonstrating an enormous amount of ignorance to basic economics, and won't understand the balance between capitalism and wealth distribution and other related categories that will be affected (effected?). Ironically, I count myself among those ignorant fools  ;D
The question here is "Why should one care about keeping a Virtual Community online?"
Virtual Communities are still in their infancy. It's going to take something big, like a  Facebook shutdown, and millions of people feeling such loss and displacement, and their spending habits being drastically altered by such an event, before discussions about the value of Virtual Communities will be taken seriously.
Many bigger communities will need to be axed, and many millions of dollars missing from bottom lines, before businesses will see the real value these Virtual Communities offer. Then the businesses that used to shutdown these communities will be the ones pushing for legislation to protect the communities from shutdowns.

One day lawyers will draft laws to protect us from businesses that wield their IPs the way a child wields a loaded gun, but not until the answer is so obvious that they don't even need to ask "Why should we care about Virtual Communities?". It won't become obvious to them until Virtual Communities account for huge chunks in business model pie charts. And that won't happen until businesses analyze (and take seriously) the relationship between Virtual Communities and long term spending habits.

And as always, my disclaimer: "IMO"!
History shows again and again
How nature points out the folly of men

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2014, 11:58:53 PM »
Huzzah!!
After the shutdown, few people IRL understood my pain, and asked that very question. Didn't take me long to figure out why: It's a paradox. If they have to ask, they are already demonstrating they are incapable of understanding the answer.
For instance, if someone asks "Why should one care about rising taxes?", they are demonstrating an enormous amount of ignorance to basic economics, and won't understand the balance between capitalism and wealth distribution and other related categories that will be affected (effected?). Ironically, I count myself among those ignorant fools  ;D
The question here is "Why should one care about keeping a Virtual Community online?"
Virtual Communities are still in their infancy. It's going to take something big, like a  Facebook shutdown, and millions of people feeling such loss and displacement, and their spending habits being drastically altered by such an event, before discussions about the value of Virtual Communities will be taken seriously.
Many bigger communities will need to be axed, and many millions of dollars missing from bottom lines, before businesses will see the real value these Virtual Communities offer. Then the businesses that used to shutdown these communities will be the ones pushing for legislation to protect the communities from shutdowns.

One day lawyers will draft laws to protect us from businesses that wield their IPs the way a child wields a loaded gun, but not until the answer is so obvious that they don't even need to ask "Why should we care about Virtual Communities?". It won't become obvious to them until Virtual Communities account for huge chunks in business model pie charts. And that won't happen until businesses analyze (and take seriously) the relationship between Virtual Communities and long term spending habits.

And as always, my disclaimer: "IMO"!
bingo.

Because sometimes it, IMO unfortunate, that it takes the significant emotional event to hit directly on a person before they understand what the people that was before them felt like.

Like this one guy. Good job, been working all his life, two masters and was working on a PhD, wife, kids, the good life. Never understood the point of the government paying assistance to people out of work. In fact throughout the years he was a stout advocate for getting rid of it completely. To him, those one government assistance were lazy leeches of tax dollars. That is, until cut backs happened and he found himself out of a job. Although at first he figured it would be easy. "they laid me off, but I'll find another job easy." A few months later, no job. Savings getting slim, sold off all the stuff he could, a few more months later still no job even though he was working hard at trying to get a job. Then he too had to reply on gov. assistance, the same stuff he wanted to wipe off the face of the planet. Only then did he soften his stance, a lot, once he was found in the situation where without that government check he would have been straight homeless and probably starving to death along with his family. It took that emotional event to get him to emphasize with what thousands of people deal with every day. And realize not all of them are the lazy bums he described them as. Sometimes as he realized, sometimes crap just happens to people regardless of how many diplomas you have hanging on the wall.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 12:10:42 AM by JaguarX »

Ohioknight

  • Celebrating Columbus Day
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
  • 65 years old
Re: I know
« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2014, 09:52:37 PM »
Hope you find something soon, Jag.
"Wow, a fat, sarcastic, Star Trek fan, you must be a devil with the ladies"

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #72 on: February 02, 2014, 02:26:51 AM »
Hope you find something soon, Jag.

find what?

Angel Phoenix77

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,136
  • I am Phoenix !!
Re: I know
« Reply #73 on: February 02, 2014, 10:26:04 PM »
find what?
I think he means find a way to get our game back. truth be told so do i
One day the Phoenix will rise again.

Ohioknight

  • Celebrating Columbus Day
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
  • 65 years old
Re: I know
« Reply #74 on: February 03, 2014, 01:53:21 AM »
Actually, I was snarkily suggesting that Jag's rather extended discussion of a guy who lost his job and then came to understand unemployment must have been self-referential... but never mind.
"Wow, a fat, sarcastic, Star Trek fan, you must be a devil with the ladies"

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #75 on: February 03, 2014, 05:08:54 AM »
Actually, I was snarkily suggesting that Jag's rather extended discussion of a guy who lost his job and then came to understand unemployment must have been self-referential... but never mind.
Oh.


Yeah I never been unemployed since 18. *knock on wood*. Even when I switched jobs, it ended up being lined up where I was still getting paid on leave from the old job while starting the new job.

While my luck didn't extend to the COX RNG rolls, it sure is up and kicking in real life it seems.

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: I know
« Reply #76 on: February 06, 2014, 11:17:24 PM »
This is a very interesting discussion, and I've had thoughts that IP and Copyright law could be looked at, but here's the main question: would any new law or reorganization of the laws apply retroactively? If not, while changing IP law is nice and all, it won't help CoH. I just don't know what the general policy is for things like IP and retroactive legality.
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

Floride

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
  • Badgehunter Extraordinaire
Re: I know
« Reply #77 on: February 08, 2014, 11:47:06 PM »
This is a very interesting discussion, and I've had thoughts that IP and Copyright law could be looked at, but here's the main question: would any new law or reorganization of the laws apply retroactively? If not, while changing IP law is nice and all, it won't help CoH. I just don't know what the general policy is for things like IP and retroactive legality.
Pretty sure new laws aren't retroactive unless they specifically state they are and specify the past date they start from.
History shows again and again
How nature points out the folly of men

thunderforce

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I know
« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2014, 12:43:05 PM »
This is a very interesting discussion, and I've had thoughts that IP and Copyright law could be looked at, but here's the main question: would any new law or reorganization of the laws apply retroactively? If not, while changing IP law is nice and all, it won't help CoH. I just don't know what the general policy is for things like IP and retroactive legality.

There's no reason why not; the endless series of copyright term extensions have been retroactive, applying to already-published works - and in some cases (eg in the EU) putting works which have entered the public domain back into copyright.

I think a bigger problem (beyond the fact that governments are not going to listen to us when the Mouse has unlimited bribe money) is that no simple reform would help us; what we need is the server code, and it's never been released - it wouldn't enter the public domain under any straightforward reform, and furthermore we simply don't have a copy of it. The idea that a _service_ can't be killed off willy-nilly would represent a fairly drastic change.

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: I know
« Reply #79 on: February 10, 2014, 01:16:46 PM »
This is a very interesting discussion, and I've had thoughts that IP and Copyright law could be looked at, but here's the main question: would any new law or reorganization of the laws apply retroactively? If not, while changing IP law is nice and all, it won't help CoH. I just don't know what the general policy is for things like IP and retroactive legality.

it can have a retroactive angle actually, the way I'm wording things the past is fair game., technically if what I'm trying to accomplish gets passed into law then the moment the law is signed someone could go down to a patent office or such and put in a request for the rights to CoH and NCSoft would have to hand them over. because the IP has sat unsed for more than 2 years.

finally ahead of my classes by 1 week, I'll attempt to sort out some legal wording.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.