Author Topic: I know  (Read 20160 times)

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
I know
« on: January 14, 2014, 01:46:13 PM »
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 02:03:17 PM by Joshex »
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Golden Girl

  • One Liners and Winky Faces
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,242
    • Heroes and Villains
Re: I know
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2014, 07:33:41 PM »
You're moving into self-parody territory with this :P
"Heroes and Villains" website - http://www.heroes-and-villains.com
"Heroes and Villains" on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/HeroesAndVillainsMMORPG
"Heroes and Villains" on Twitter - https://twitter.com/Plan_Z_Studios
"Heroes and Villains" teaser trailer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnjKqNPfFv8
Artwork - http://goldengirlcoh.deviantart.com

Floride

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
  • Badgehunter Extraordinaire
Re: I know
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2014, 08:44:00 PM »
So.. all I have to do is start selling Windows98 and I can claim ownership of the IP? And no one has to buy it, I just have to make it "officially available"? Right on!
*Rubs hands together, licking his lips* yesssss.... I'm seeing the possibilities here. I will soon own the IP for the PSX! Muahahahaha!
History shows again and again
How nature points out the folly of men

Drauger9

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 344
    • My gaming blog
Re: I know
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2014, 12:19:24 AM »
Hi Joshex,  seen your post last night and was going to reply. Since it was late and I was exhausted I decided to wait until I had some sleep. LOL!

I'm glad to see that your atleast doing something, where as I just post on this board with my support but... I really really think IP law reform is a very very long shot.

It seems to me that when it comes to most laws (minus gun control, taxes, ect....) the Government in general are reluctant to consider it. In the case of IP laws where even if everyone here was to sign the petition. I seriously doubt they'd even consider it.

Also, as much as I would love to have City of Heroes back. The IP does belong to NCSoft and to go as far as. To ask the Government to change the IP laws so we can take it from them, is alittle much. I know you sighted other reasons for the IP law change but I'm just focusing on the main reason to want it for me. LOL!

Quote
Every problem has a solution, even in this instituational aristocracy ruled burocracy

I agree with this, I always tell my nieces and nephews. "You can do anything you want. All you have to do is figure out how."

Hopefully you'll figure out how. Who knows, maybe you'll stumble upon something and be the one to bring City of Heroes back. I've seen enough in my short life, that I've learned not to write anyone or anything off. LOL!

Good luck to you.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2014, 01:41:24 AM »

Shenku

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 388
Re: I know
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2014, 01:48:58 AM »
Such a law would give rise to too many bad prescedents and horrific violations of the entire point of the laws in place now to protect such IP's, so I would have to say no to such an idea.

Think about it outside of just CoH. Take Disney for instance; every couple of years they pull an old Disney movie(An IP owned by Disney) out of their vaults and resell it in a new remastered and newly formatted version(I think they're onto Blueray now, but it was DVD before, and rereleased VHS before that), but only for a limited time.

Wouldn't you then be able to say that you can legally pirate such movies after their production has again ceased at the end of that limited time offer? Once they sell out from the stores, they're no longer available through official means after all, so Disney would once again just be sitting on it, wouldn't they? Why not then couldn't someone else start selling homemade copies under such a law?

Maybe not the best example, but you're basically asking for a law to legalize theft under those rather broad conditions, so how would you prevent people from just swooping in and saying, like Floride said, "I own Windows 98" or "No one was making copies of Mickey Mouse cartoons, so now Mickey Mouse is mine!"? No one wants some jack-hole movie pirate in China to suddenly become the legal owner of half of the movie industry, let alone any software under the sun that hasn't been made for a few years. You'd be opening the floodgates to a forced IP firesale for anything that isn't nailed down in secure current production by its present owners, and that would cause mass chaos across nearly every industry... Are you trying to encourage a law that would cause a financial collapse? Seriously? And people think I'm crazy...

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2014, 03:39:55 AM »
Such a law would give rise to too many bad prescedents and horrific violations of the entire point of the laws in place now to protect such IP's, so I would have to say no to such an idea.

Think about it outside of just CoH. Take Disney for instance; every couple of years they pull an old Disney movie(An IP owned by Disney) out of their vaults and resell it in a new remastered and newly formatted version(I think they're onto Blueray now, but it was DVD before, and rereleased VHS before that), but only for a limited time.

Wouldn't you then be able to say that you can legally pirate such movies after their production has again ceased at the end of that limited time offer? Once they sell out from the stores, they're no longer available through official means after all, so Disney would once again just be sitting on it, wouldn't they? Why not then couldn't someone else start selling homemade copies under such a law?

Maybe not the best example, but you're basically asking for a law to legalize theft under those rather broad conditions, so how would you prevent people from just swooping in and saying, like Floride said, "I own Windows 98" or "No one was making copies of Mickey Mouse cartoons, so now Mickey Mouse is mine!"? No one wants some jack-hole movie pirate in China to suddenly become the legal owner of half of the movie industry, let alone any software under the sun that hasn't been made for a few years. You'd be opening the floodgates to a forced IP firesale for anything that isn't nailed down in secure current production by its present owners, and that would cause mass chaos across nearly every industry... Are you trying to encourage a law that would cause a financial collapse? Seriously? And people think I'm crazy...
Basically this above is what I was saying except I think Shenku put it in a more clearer shorter terms.

Kistulot

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 540
  • Argentum Weritas Est!
Re: I know
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2014, 04:57:38 AM »
The discussion of changing IP law for CoH is outlandish at best, but one thing reading over this thread out of curiosity did stand out to me.

Maybe not the best example, but you're basically asking for a law to legalize theft under those rather broad conditions, so how would you prevent people from just swooping in and saying, like Floride said, "I own Windows 98" or "No one was making copies of Mickey Mouse cartoons, so now Mickey Mouse is mine!"?

In the example here of mickey mouse, it used to be that things like this went into something called the public domain. Thank companies like Disney for preventing that practice from ever including anything in our lifetimes.
Woo! - Argent Girl

Ohioknight

  • Celebrating Columbus Day
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
  • 65 years old
Re: I know
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2014, 05:16:13 AM »
"we can make this happen if we have the 'round ones' to do it. "

No.  "We" can't.

Honest to goodness -- you have greater chance of convincing the Chinese government to provide you with nuclear weapons for free with free shipping than you have of making any change whatsoever to IP laws -- even the most minor little change.
"Wow, a fat, sarcastic, Star Trek fan, you must be a devil with the ladies"

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: I know
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2014, 05:37:58 AM »
So.. all I have to do is start selling Windows98 and I can claim ownership of the IP? And no one has to buy it, I just have to make it "officially available"? Right on!
*Rubs hands together, licking his lips* yesssss.... I'm seeing the possibilities here. I will soon own the IP for the PSX! Muahahahaha!

though under the articles you could viably own the rights to the discontinued OS, you can't call it windows because that trademark is still in effect in newer versions. also certain file types, extensions and other stuff would need to undergo some changes in name and possibly code if for example the 98 '.exe' code is still fully utilized in the newest version of windows allong with new updates.

Basically this above is what I was saying except I think Shenku put it in a more clearer shorter terms.

Official Availability, so long as the company intends for the former product to be available for sale to it's intended market, then no remakes are necessary to hold the IPs.
Spoiler for Hidden:
Interesting stuff here.

 Also consider how it would affect things, all IPs, beyond COH though and how it will effect personal property rights.  Remember IP laws was designed to afford the protection of "creations" (umbrella term for software, inventions, products and etc.) for the creator that is somewhat like the personal property laws. Thus if someone could lose their property within two years because it is deemed the yare not using it at the time or not fully utilizing it, should a guy lose his car because he have not driven it in two years or rather can the neighbor enter the home grab the keys and drive off with the other guy's unused car without pentalty?


I think you are on the right track with that the laws may need a bit of changing or updating but remember games are not the only things covered by property laws. Everything from artwork, to computers, to logos, to written published and in some cases non-published works. I think your changes would hit writers the hardest because then if someone write something, after two years of non-utilization for what ever reason, any company can claim rights to the works. Like there are many books out there that haven't been in rotation for a while but if anyone did want to try and take their work and make money off of it without the author and creator of the work getting a cut, there may be lawsuit filed by the original author (unless of course the work has passed into the public domain time period and usually by then the author is stone cold dead.) With two years that would mean that any book or work of music for that matter that haven't been in rotation since, 2012 is open for any joe to pick it up, and claim all rights to the works. Compared to as it stands, I think the rights to the Beatles music go for a couple of dozen millions and that is music that was released in the 60s and still probably have great market value. Under the two year rule, anyone could have picked up the rights to that for free basically and make a killing. Which then go back to utilization and the meaning of fully utilize. The rights buyer may simply like Beatles music, but that doesn't make them an overnight expert at using it. And since they own exclusive rights to the work that means they could edit it, chop screw it, remix it, and calling it updating and modernizing classics and utilize it. And as long as they fully utilize their product, then they own the right to the Beatles stuff they acquired and that would really suck for people looking for true unadulterated Beatles stuff and have to wait until the guy stop releasing stuff and wait another two years before it changes ownership. Which in the end do not protect the work that the changes were meant to protect and do not nesseccarily give access to the IP by the fans of the original IP. The way it's worded, sounds like it would be a good idea to set up a corporation that specializing in acquiring IP stuff. Wont have to produce any product of my own, already have ready made markets, and basically the only money spent is on distribution and maybe changes the corporation sees fit in order to "improve" the product.


Or then, another loophole is price. A company can keep a price running but "abandon it officially" but to make it look like they are utilizing they simply raise the price. Say instead of $15 a month for VIP in COX, they don't want to lose COX IP but really don't want to bother run it, so they do the bare min. and raise the sub fee to $80 a month or so. While giving the reason they must do something like that is because the choice is to either use it or lose it and they are not ready to lose their creation yet or simply trying to increase profits that are inline with what their other products bring in on average. Or some other corporate excuse which the results probably will end up the same, keep raising prices until majority of the players that originally enjoyed the product simply cannot afford to pay to keep playing. Which if one cannot afford to play then whether the game is up or locked away in a virtual vault, the end result is the same. They cannot enjoy the product.


But again, I like your line of thinking and think you are on the right track. But besides all that I wrote above, the main thing is to remember that corporations and businesses have a lot of pull in what laws are passed or changed. The question is, in what way do this benefit businesses? It's a sad question to have to ask, but in US. it kind of how things work most of the time. Or else, corporate taxes would be paying out the nose in taxes while the people would be getting a break. AKA, businesses and the ones that run the business would not be paying a tax lower than the janitor they hired who is already barely get paid enough to take care of himself.

some interesting comments I had to adapt the definition of Official availability to avoid some of the concerns.

"Official Availability is to describe the point when a product/service is directly available to the market it was originally intended for weather regional or international through intention/distribution by the product/service owner."

you bought your car or house or rented it for personal availability to you and yours. and the seller sold it with intention of someone to live in it or drive it depending on the product. so thier definition is added to yours upon purchase.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 06:08:41 AM by Joshex »
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Shenku

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 388
Re: I know
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2014, 06:16:33 AM »
Official Availability, so long as the company intends for the former product to be available for sale to it's intended market, then no remakes are necessary to hold the IPs.

If no remakes are necessary, then what happens when official availability runs out after production was stopped? Again, using my Disney example, they only produce those remastered editions for a limited time, and after they're sold out, they're gone from the official market entirely until Disney decides to put it out again. Once that happens, there is no longer "official availability" any more, so again, what's to stop someone from suddenly claiming ownership of said discontinued product if that product isn't on the market anymore?

Companies like Disney would have to completely overhaul their production and marketing standards and procedures just to maintain control over all of their properties(because again, they currently don't have all of them available at present from official sources, because these things cost a lot of money to produce, let alone store until they sell), and not all companies can afford such drastic hits to their finances, many of which may simply cut their losses and fold up their companies, laying off hundreds, if not, thousands of employees(ending up in the multi-millions across all the different companies effected by this), and all because of one little law.

So no, I'm still not convinced that this is a good idea.

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: I know
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2014, 03:09:31 PM »
If no remakes are necessary, then what happens when official availability runs out after production was stopped? Again, using my Disney example, they only produce those remastered editions for a limited time, and after they're sold out, they're gone from the official market entirely until Disney decides to put it out again. Once that happens, there is no longer "official availability" any more, so again, what's to stop someone from suddenly claiming ownership of said discontinued product if that product isn't on the market anymore?

Companies like Disney would have to completely overhaul their production and marketing standards and procedures just to maintain control over all of their properties(because again, they currently don't have all of them available at present from official sources, because these things cost a lot of money to produce, let alone store until they sell), and not all companies can afford such drastic hits to their finances, many of which may simply cut their losses and fold up their companies, laying off hundreds, if not, thousands of employees(ending up in the multi-millions across all the different companies effected by this), and all because of one little law.

So no, I'm still not convinced that this is a good idea.

Theres a thing called "enough stock in circulation" and a thing called Online ordering which can be done at shops or by one's self on a computer.

all the company needs to do is keep it listed as purchasable on thier website and in store's digital catalogs.

two examples of stuff in circulation right now one where the company keeps ownership and one where it doesn't;

Does keep ownership if; Though nintendo has made a claim that they have discontinued support for older systems such as the NES and SNES ETC, They still wish to have NES and SNES units in production if theres a call for it.

Does not keep ownership if; though nintendo still makes mario games, one could actively say that the nintendo motto is "throw out the old style and start new" which means that to be fair, nintendo has not produced a game that fully uses the original concept or at least some of it's sub concepts. Mario bros. was different in playstyle and other factors from super mario bros. and mario bros. 2 and 3 were completely different, world also very different, this coupled with the fact that certain of the titles are not intentionally for purchase any more IE you can't buy a physical copy unless it's used, nintendo would stand to loose some old gameplay concepts.

There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: I know
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2014, 05:41:22 PM »
Honestly, I've been fighting for IP reform for about 20 years from a public policy standpoint and your solution is unrealistic and unworkable. It would destroy the protections that the law allows and do nothing to curtail abuse, just change how it is done.

Here's another mouse house example: In the early 90's there was a reprinting of early Mickey Mouse strips called "The Uncensored Mouse". Basically, strips that are politically incorrect and Disney didn't want them printed. Unfortunately, they were public domain and Disney had no legal grounds to stop the reprints. But Disney, unlawfully, kept the publisher in court with nonsense suits until he ran out of money. The worse part is that Disney just started reprinting them a few years ago.

Certainly reform needs to happen, but the easiest and saniest way would be to stop extending copyright indefinitely. Every time Steamboat Willie gets close, Disney rams through another extension. The US needs to adopt a EU style system that does allow older works to be preserved and made available for a reasonable cost.

What you are advocating is making copyright similar to trademark. Trademark requires defense and vigilance to keep protection under the law. Copyright does not and should not. Your solution would essentially make it impossible for individuals (as they would likely lack the means of defending infringement) to get protection for work under copyright and leave large IP holders with the only ones having protection.

Frankly, with amount of money that the RIAA and MPAA spend trying to overturn and destroy Fair Use and enforce DMCA even though it clearly violates Fair Use as described by the Supreme Court the best those of us actually working in this area can do is maintain what we can for Fair Use.

Sorry to be so blunt, but your plan would make things worse, not better for the public.  I want COH back too, but not like this.

AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

Angel Phoenix77

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,136
  • I am Phoenix !!
Re: I know
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2014, 03:15:53 AM »
interesting, does this mean tr, auto assault, and dungeon runners can now have a emulator or the real game?
One day the Phoenix will rise again.

Shenku

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 388
Re: I know
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2014, 06:53:21 AM »
Here's the problem, Joshex, once they run out of official stock of a product, how are they suppose to keep track of what's still floating around in the third party markets to know that it is still available for people to buy? It's not in their inventory any longer, and they'd have already recieved their payments from the third party sellers(and thus couldn't track it further based on money coming in), so how do they know how much is still available to know that the property is safe from a hostile takeover by some other company?

No, I think too much extra regulation and information sharing would need to be involved to make that type of system work.

Now, I'm not saying that I'm against reform of some kind to allow legal access to things that are no longer being made or supported by their owners, but there's got to be a simpler way that won't screw companies out of properties they rightly own, yet allow us to have access to things that are no longer offered in any official/legal form.

As far as such reform in regards to NCSoft and CoH, it's highly doubtful that any potential reform that may get proposed and seriously considered will be able to wrest control of the game from them, and even more doubtful that any government official involved (or for that matter, public support) will be willing to reform such a system specifically for a video game, especially considering how easily video games and the game industry in its entirety are slandered in most forms of mainstream media.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 07:35:49 AM by Shenku »

thunderforce

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I know
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2014, 12:11:13 PM »
heck it's not just CoH that shows us the stifling and restricting articles of patent reform, Have you ever heard of the guy in canada who developed a new component for cars which boosts gas mileage to insane values like 60+ MPG and makes your engine burn cleaner in the process?

You probably have, yes, but I imagine you believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories. Patents are by definition public; if this existed (which it doesn't) and was being sat on by patent law, one could read the patent.

Furthermore, the situation CoX is in has nothing to do with patents.

(I don't feel that IP law should be usable to simply sit on a work, but I don't intend to wrestle with JagX's screenful of inanity on the subject.)

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: I know
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2014, 05:07:31 AM »
Here's the problem, Joshex, once they run out of official stock of a product, how are they suppose to keep track of what's still floating around in the third party markets to know that it is still available for people to buy? It's not in their inventory any longer, and they'd have already recieved their payments from the third party sellers(and thus couldn't track it further based on money coming in), so how do they know how much is still available to know that the property is safe from a hostile takeover by some other company?

No, I think too much extra regulation and information sharing would need to be involved to make that type of system work.

Now, I'm not saying that I'm against reform of some kind to allow legal access to things that are no longer being made or supported by their owners, but there's got to be a simpler way that won't screw companies out of properties they rightly own, yet allow us to have access to things that are no longer offered in any official/legal form.

As far as such reform in regards to NCSoft and CoH, it's highly doubtful that any potential reform that may get proposed and seriously considered will be able to wrest control of the game from them, and even more doubtful that any government official involved (or for that matter, public support) will be willing to reform such a system specifically for a video game, especially considering how easily video games and the game industry in its entirety are slandered in most forms of mainstream media.

when supply runs out the first thing the stores do is ask the producers for more copies if there is still a request for it., even if there are no copies on the shelf for 2 years and someone comes up to the counter asking for it the response should be "we don't have it but we can order it."

this proves the company's intention to sell the product continuously to anyone who would want it.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: I know
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2014, 05:12:39 AM »
Honestly, I've been fighting for IP reform for about 20 years from a public policy standpoint and your solution is unrealistic and unworkable. It would destroy the protections that the law allows and do nothing to curtail abuse, just change how it is done.

Here's another mouse house example: In the early 90's there was a reprinting of early Mickey Mouse strips called "The Uncensored Mouse". Basically, strips that are politically incorrect and Disney didn't want them printed. Unfortunately, they were public domain and Disney had no legal grounds to stop the reprints. But Disney, unlawfully, kept the publisher in court with nonsense suits until he ran out of money. The worse part is that Disney just started reprinting them a few years ago.

Certainly reform needs to happen, but the easiest and saniest way would be to stop extending copyright indefinitely. Every time Steamboat Willie gets close, Disney rams through another extension. The US needs to adopt a EU style system that does allow older works to be preserved and made available for a reasonable cost.

What you are advocating is making copyright similar to trademark. Trademark requires defense and vigilance to keep protection under the law. Copyright does not and should not. Your solution would essentially make it impossible for individuals (as they would likely lack the means of defending infringement) to get protection for work under copyright and leave large IP holders with the only ones having protection.

Frankly, with amount of money that the RIAA and MPAA spend trying to overturn and destroy Fair Use and enforce DMCA even though it clearly violates Fair Use as described by the Supreme Court the best those of us actually working in this area can do is maintain what we can for Fair Use.

Sorry to be so blunt, but your plan would make things worse, not better for the public.  I want COH back too, but not like this.

so you are saying there needs to be some anti abuse measure for stuff like "oh lets keep our rights to snow white and release a new 3D version or heck just release it again to keep from loosing the rights or heck lets just make a "the more you know" commercial featuring snow white to hold the rights"
technically the commercial theory would bomb because it doesn't make full use of the IP. the others, lets work on it.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Floride

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
  • Badgehunter Extraordinaire
Re: I know
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2014, 06:45:24 AM »
Josh, I appreciate that you addressed my concern about how your ideas here could basically legalize IP theft. I've enjoyed reading the other responses too. It's obvious from the other responses that the biggest issue with your ideas is the role of "official availability". That's the first hurdle. While I'm doubting the UN will want anything to do with IP reform anytime soon, if you can tweak the issues with "official availablity" you may be on to something.

I'd like to add that there are a lot of IP in the world that are proprietary. They're that way for good reasons. Requiring those IPs to be officially available could do many small startups a LOT of harm, and protecting proprietary IPs would create an exploitable loophole where companies could hide the IPs they want to "sit on". You can't make laws forcing companies to act ethically, it's been tried before and generally backfires.

You can, however, create a set of ethical IP laws that companies can voluntarily adhere to - like Creative Commons copyrights, but for IP Rights. Getting businesses to embrace your new IP standards voluntarily will affect more change than the UN trying to force them all to act ethically with new laws.

Just something to think about.

Also, regardless of the issues in your new law ideas it's clear you put a TON of work into this and I, for one, APPLAUD YOUR EFFORTS. Don't get discouraged, you may be mere minutes from achieving something great. Tweak, tweak, tweak - and see what you end up with. Good Luck!
History shows again and again
How nature points out the folly of men

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: I know
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2014, 02:00:20 PM »
The thing to remember about IP, copyright, patent law, and the like is that, particularly in the domain of intangible "knowledge" and infinitely-duplicable "creative" works (such as anything that can be replicated digitally or whose material composition is irrelevant to its utility and content, such as books or movies)...they're designed to allow us to treat them as "property" in the same way we would physical property.

They're designed to protect "ownership."

The old-time gold prospectors of California and Alaska panned for gold for hours upon hours and days upon days for years on end. If, once they were done acquiring it, somebody else could just take a look at it and produce copies that were just as useful as the originals for a tenth the effort, these men would never have gone prospecting.

IP - intellectual property - is just that: it's property owned by somebody by virtue of the intellectual and creative work that they had to do to create it.

It takes effort to write a novel. Far more than it does to read and duplicate it. And nobody has a right to demand that, say, George R.R. Martin ever release another novel in his Song of Ice and Fire series. If, for some reason, he finished it this year, but decided that he never wanted the public to see it, there is no moral nor ethical way to say, "the conclusion of that story belongs to the public! He must release it!"

If Jed Clampett owns some back-woods land and discovers oil on it, and decides that he doesn't want to allow Exxon to come in and mine it out, no ethical nor moral way exists to demand that he give access to that oil. No matter how much we decide we need the oil, it's his until we offer him something that convinces him to sell us access. If Jed Clampett invested his own time and money into building his own oil wells, and then sat on the oil rather than selling it, we still wouldn't have any ethical nor moral right to demand that he give it away if he holds it for "too long" without "making it available." For whatever reason, the investment he put into it is not something he feels he's getting back. That means it's up to us to figure out how to convince him - how to pay him enough - to sell it, if we want it badly enough.

To try to force "sale" by deciding that not selling it means it's now something that can be taken for free, we effectively deny ownership to anybody. Without ownership, we cannot expect people to work to produce. (And yes, employees who don't own their work product still are paid what the employees feel is fair. If they don't feel it fair, they can choose to find other employment, or not work at all. If others will work for less than they feel they're worth, then they have objective evidence that it may be they who overvalue their production.) If Jed Clampett feels his oil is worth $10 billion per ounce, nobody will buy it from him for that amount. But he feels it's worth it, and thus would rather hold onto it than sell for less.

That's the other thing, addressing this proposed change to IP directly: it says it must be "officially available" or they give up their rights to the IP. It doesn't say how cheap that availability must be. Let's assume for a moment that the claim about GM sitting on a patent for an engine that would go for 60 miles to the gallon is true. To continue in this behavior of "refusing to sell," all they'd have to do is offer to sell engines - to be built on-demand - for $100 trillion. And raise the price as inflation goes up.

It's "officially available," but at a price nobody would ever pay.

And we can't say, "oh, well, that's not a fair price, so we'll establish a legal ceiling to how much something can sell for." At that point, you're just legalizing theft, again. Especially since "fair" may mean "free" to a lot of people who think that, say, a novel can be distributed electronically so cheaply that they shouldn't have to pay for their copy at all. Remember: a thing is worth what people will pay for it and what people will take to part with it. I mean, I would certainly pay $10 for a brand-new, fully functional Surface Pro 2, but I doubt I could find somebody to sell it to me for that. That means it's worth more than $10. But only I and the person from whom I'm buying can determine the value of the exact Surface Pro 2 I'm seeking to buy. Only Jed Clampett and his customers can determine the exact value of his oil. "The market" is really just an aggregate of all the individual purchases of the product in question. That's why "market values" fluctuate as things change in perceived value. When shortages occur, people who want it more desperately offer premium prices to get first dibs. This drives up prices overall as others strive to match or exceed them to get what they need. Attempting to say "it's only worth $X" from some sort of legal standpoint leads to true shortages. We had lines at gas stations in the late 70s precisely because of price controls.

Scarcity will be rationed. Whether by dollars or by "ration stamps" or by "first-come, first-serve," it will be rationed. At least with dollars, you know that somebody valued something the person offering them did enough to part with said dollars. (It's also why you wind up with a black market ANYWHERE you have anything short of a genuine open free market: it's the natural state of human industry. People will offer what they must to get what they feel they need, or even what they want badly enough. This drive will cause other people to offer those goods and services, eventually, because they want the price offered for them. Black markets are "expensive" only because the required threshold to get people to break the law tends to be higher than to trade openly. But they can be "cheap" too, if the reason for the black market is the premium of taxation/tariff/whatever put on a product by non-market forces.

You'll note that IP tends to fall into black markets - often FREE ones, such as torrenting files that you haven't paid for - because it's cheaper than paying the owner of the IP.

So our IP laws are definitely imperfect. If they modeled what they seek to properly, "black market" sales wouldn't be so prevalent. Then again, theft of property is always a thing with which one must be concerned...

...and I really am rambling, so I'll stop now.)

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: I know
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2014, 09:07:29 PM »
No, I'm saying that large corporations would have the means to still tie up IP while individual copyright holders, like say a self published poet, would not.

In fact, they could easily be at the mercy of large corporations who could steal almost with impunity and then claim copyright because they could defend it.

I can't imagine a worse solution to copyright abuse. The current systems DOES need reform to take into account digital technology and a changing world but it needs to be something that is fair and equitable to large and small copyright holders.
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

ROBOKiTTY

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 183
  • KiTTYRiffic
    • KiTTYLand
Re: I know
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2014, 02:58:10 AM »
IP law violation is not theft. That tired metaphor needs to go. There is nothing new under the sun. Every idea one has is either copied verbatim or with variation or synthesized from multiple sources. Ideas are not protected, only particular expressions of ideas.

IP is a deeply flawed concept, and the current legal status shows that. Wholesale copying of ideas is not only tolerated but a routine aspect of all industries that rely on IP (covered by terms such as homage, inspiration, spiritual successor, et al). Only verbatim copying of letters and bits are considered violations of copyright law. Why are particular arrangements of building blocks privileged above the ideas behind them in copyright law? Because society cannot afford to subsidize the monopolization of ideas, except in the highly restricted cases of patents. Because copying with variation and synthesis of multiple sources generate progress that keeps society moving.
Have you played with a KiTTY today?

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: I know
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2014, 03:35:55 PM »
IP law violation is not theft. That tired metaphor needs to go. There is nothing new under the sun. Every idea one has is either copied verbatim or with variation or synthesized from multiple sources. Ideas are not protected, only particular expressions of ideas.

IP is a deeply flawed concept, and the current legal status shows that. Wholesale copying of ideas is not only tolerated but a routine aspect of all industries that rely on IP (covered by terms such as homage, inspiration, spiritual successor, et al). Only verbatim copying of letters and bits are considered violations of copyright law. Why are particular arrangements of building blocks privileged above the ideas behind them in copyright law? Because society cannot afford to subsidize the monopolization of ideas, except in the highly restricted cases of patents. Because copying with variation and synthesis of multiple sources generate progress that keeps society moving.
I must respectfully disagree.

IP protects the work that goes into creating a new "expression" of ideas as much as the core of the idea.

You're right; you can't call "super-powered heroes and villains" an IP-protectable object. You can't even call "flying brick" a protectable archetype.

But you absolutely can call "Superman" and all his associated weight and history of background and backstory protectable. It is theft to steal a comic book, whether you steal the physical pages or you copy the digital file without paying for it.

That internet piracy is not nearly so harmful as the RIAA and others would like you to think doesn't change the fundamental truth that it IS theft to partake of another's work without their permission.

"There is nothing new under the sun" is false as long as "new expressions" of ideas are real things. Else, no novel would be worth writing any longer. No new videogame worth producing.

IP is property. I won't say the existing laws work perfectly - they are deeply flawed - but efforts to "liberate" IP by changing the laws to permit anybody who wants to to copy and use (especially use-for-profit) whatever they like just because they don't think it's being made "officially available" enough...that's the same as deciding that a cobbler's shoes are not "officially available" because he decided to stockpile for the winter rush and won't lower prices just because he has a surplus this summer. "Well, since he won't sell them, clearly I can just walk in and take them. Maybe for what the government decides is a 'fair' rate."

When people say "NCSoft is sitting on the IP of City of Heroes," they really mean NCSoft is sitting on the easiest means to get a game that has exactly the features of CoH/V back. If they were talking about re-creating or making new work to build a new game, they would be less eager for the CoH/V IP. It is work to create new IP. City of Titans has a whole lot of people working very hard to produce new setting and character material so that our game will be its own animal. Just slapping old CoH IP onto a new coding structure would be easier. But it still would be work to rebuild all the models.

Thing is, the fact that it would be easier is why the IP has value as property. It's established. The creative work of designing it is done. And it was done by people who sold that effort to Crytpic, who sold that effort to NCSoft. NCSoft has paid for it. To say they don't deserve to own it is no different than saying that the wealthy man who bought a unique work of art from an artist doesn't deserve that art work. The artist got paid for his work, but he was paid by that wealthy man. That wealthy man is down the money he spent on it; he has a right to the property he has purchased. The fact that he's wealthy and could afford the cost doesn't diminish his claim to the art. Without people like him, artists would not be able to create their art as freely, because they would be doing it solely as a hobby.

There's a LOT of hard work going into City of Titans. We're volunteers, and we do it as a labor of love, but the fact that we have to have paying jobs rather than being paid to create CoT means that it is a slower process, and that we give up a lot more of our personal time than we otherwise would. There are good and solid reasons for this, but game companies usually have big backers precisely to mitigate that reality. Those backers deserve their control of the work product, because without them, it would either not have come to be, or would have cost the creators far more to create. More, perhaps, than the creators would be willing to expend. (Obviously not, so far, the case with CoT; we're pretty driven. But even we recognize that eventually, our creative work will be a product, and if we don't own it, we won't be able to sustain the services that go with it, and this industry-changing experiment will fail.)

Money and property are not evil, and IP is just another form of property. We may need better laws to simulate its specific expression as property than we actually have, but the core concept of "intellectual property" is sound. And the need to protect it when information, once created, is so easily stolen through duplication, is very real.

(Now, if you want to discuss RIAA and digital media and whether free distributions via piracy are harmful or not, I think that is its own other thread. Suffice it to say that I'm in the camp that thinks piracy is unethical, but that a lot of the RIAA-types out there are business dunces who don't appreciate just how much more money a certain level of free distribution can make, because it's near-costless marketing. I also think NCSoft has made an incorrect business calculation in closing CoH; if I didn't, I wouldn't be part of an effort to capitalize on the hole they left in the market, and do it right.)

thunderforce

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I know
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2014, 04:17:22 PM »
The thing to remember about IP, copyright, patent law, and the like is that, particularly in the domain of intangible "knowledge" and infinitely-duplicable "creative" works (such as anything that can be replicated digitally or whose material composition is irrelevant to its utility and content, such as books or movies)...they're designed to allow us to treat them as "property" in the same way we would physical property.

And the thing to remember about that is that it's a social construct. There's nothing magical about doing it that way; if we could find a method to incentivise creation which doesn't rely on artificial scarcity it would be better; and in cases where the scarcity is all we get and the incentive is minimal (like, say, where the original creator is long dead and no-one is making any money off the product) we can recognise that the system is badly flawed.

Furthermore, of course, that's why we can't just blithely proceed to pretend it _is_ property. Physical property rights are a social construct as well, but the scarcity is not artificial.

Quote
The old-time gold prospectors of California and Alaska panned for gold for hours upon hours and days upon days for years on end. If, once they were done acquiring it, somebody else could just take a look at it and produce copies that were just as useful as the originals for a tenth the effort, these men would never have gone prospecting.

And since the scarcity of gold would then be artificial, there would clearly be no point in them doing so. Rather than allowing the Gold Producers Association of America to bring in draconian punishments for gold copying with the aim of restricting everyone to buying prospected gold, any sane society would conclude that the best mechanism to promote the availability of gold would be to copy it.

Quote
If Jed Clampett owns some back-woods land and discovers oil on it, and decides that he doesn't want to allow Exxon to come in and mine it out, no ethical nor moral way exists to demand that he give access to that oil.

This is a bit of a dodge; in essentially every jurisdiction, the state does reserve the right to demand your land if it serves the public good.

Furthermore, that is not inherently unreasonable; the only reason it _is_ your land is that the state is willing to enforce that right; absent a state, Esso can just turn up and start drilling. Physical property, beyond the level of what you happen to hold in your hand at the moment, is every bit as much a social construct.

Quote
To try to force "sale" by deciding that not selling it means it's now something that can be taken for free, we effectively deny ownership to anybody. Without ownership, we cannot expect people to work to produce.

This is simply false. If someone writes a book, it's generally with the aim of selling that book. In a world with recovery of abandoned copyrights, the situation would be much the same when first writing a book; the loss of the ability to sit on it later and deny it to the world would be a very minimal factor. We can see this because people were perfectly willing to write books when the copyright term was 25 years; when it was entirely likely that an author would see their work enter the public domain in their own lifetime.

Quote
it IS theft to partake of another's work without their permission.

No, it isn't. Theft requires "intent to permanently deprive". If I steal your bicycle, you don't have a bicycle anymore; if I copy your bicycle, you still have a bicycle, for all that it's tough if you planned to sell me the bicycle.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2014, 05:04:28 PM »

No, it isn't. Theft requires "intent to permanently deprive". If I steal your bicycle, you don't have a bicycle anymore; if I copy your bicycle, you still have a bicycle, for all that it's tough if you planned to sell me the bicycle.

Intent to permanently depriving a person. Yep. In criminal law that is the just of it. But also the other part of that definition is not always simply tangible stuff, like a bike. Sometimes depriving of income, money, ownership rights, and sometimes sole ownership rights, distribution rights and etc, which can be theft also if the purpose was to or seemed to with intent to permanently deprive a person.

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: I know
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2014, 03:25:28 PM »
Not everybody writes with the intention of selling. There are a number of people who write for their own personal pleasure, and are actually very shy about even sharing their work. It is, nonetheless, their work. If Critic O'Literary stumbles across it, and thinks it's the best work he's ever read, and wants to distribute it, but Shy McWriter doesn't want her work distributed at all, does Critic O'Literary have a right to take this "social construct" of IP and just say "everybody deserves to read it?" Under that justification, does Critic have a right to publish it against Shy's will?

What if Shy is writing it with intent for it to be distributed, but it's memoirs of a time she spent working with high-powered political figures, and she knows it will make enemies? She therefore wants it published upon her death. Cowardly, perhaps, but is it not her right to reserve her work until then? If it isn't, why would she write it at all, lest it be forced into publication when it could make her suffer?

To say that property is a social construct is...partially right. The idea that the guy with the most and biggest weapons isn't the guy who gets to do whatever he wants with anything and anybody he wants is, indeed, a social construct. But to dismiss "social constructs" as if they are something mutable and all equally good or bad is a dreadful mistake. "The Right of First Night" that kings and other nobility claimed was also a social construct. "Honor killings" are social constructs. The idea that you have a right of freedom of political speech is a social construct. About the only part of the Bill of Rights in the USA that is not merely a social construct is the 2nd Amendment: the right to keep and bear arms. That one isn't a mere social construct because it's the one that is self-enforceable: if you exercise it, it becomes a lot harder for others to deny it to you. (Not that they can't, but they'd need more or bigger arms.)

"Social constructs" are optimization rules. Some are good and some are bad. They evolve first out of realpolitik ("No, you can't just go and take that man's daughter and wife for your own, because he'll come attacking us and we don't want to afford that war.") and then, eventually, start being deliberately designed to try to optimize human success (the Magna Carta, then the US Constitution, as examples). Property is a crucial one. Every society that has denied the right of private property based on the free-willed choice to exchange it for other property or for services has suffered amazing (by American standards) levels of poverty and scarcity. The more a society operates on the concept that a man's labor and the fruits thereof are his own until he exchanges them for something he wants, the more that society has prospered.

Intellectual property - IP - is the fruit of somebody's labor. If you want it to be produced abundantly, you will respect it as theirs to control as much as you would respect a cobbler's right to control the shoes he produces (until he sells them).

Again, because the scarcity-of-non-unique-product is non-existent in our digital day and age when it comes to IP, we need to find better ways of modelling it than we have. But that doesn't change the central point of this thread's danger: forcing people to give up rights to sole profit and control distribution of their IP would be to deny them the right to their own creations. It is no different than deciding that "hey, since Exxon wants the oil and can get it out more cheaply without paying the Clampetts for it, they should be allowed to go and get it for free. That's best for society, right?"

dwturducken

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Now available in stereo
Re: I know
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2014, 06:05:39 PM »
Stepping back from the ideology, the real concern is whether or not the entity that owns the IP can do a damned thing beyond bluster. This is clearly not an entity that will stand for something like the King's Quest remakes. Given the client/server arrangement, the SCoRE efforts seem to be predicated on the assumption that the server is just technology, like (and I know this is a flimsy analogy) the "emulator" console that will play old Sega and Nintendo console cartridges. They aren't selling the old games, just a new box that lets you play the old ones that you already have.

There are a lot of fun theories and ideas floating around, at the moment, and that's a good thing. Maybe none of it amounts to anything, but it shows that we're still here and engaged. The "out there" and "fringe" ideas are still useful, even if nothing comes of them, but they get and keep us talking, and the ideas keep flowing. Fortunately, Joshex has a thick skin to be able to roll with the criticisms and keep coming back with new ideas or new ways of looking at old ones. Right or wrong, we need more of that.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

thunderforce

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I know
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2014, 12:36:47 PM »
Not everybody writes with the intention of selling. There are a number of people who write for their own personal pleasure, and are actually very shy about even sharing their work. It is, nonetheless, their work. If Critic O'Literary stumbles across it, and thinks it's the best work he's ever read, and wants to distribute it, but Shy McWriter doesn't want her work distributed at all, does Critic O'Literary have a right to take this "social construct" of IP and just say "everybody deserves to read it?" Under that justification, does Critic have a right to publish it against Shy's will?

No, because Shy has a right to privacy. An unpublished work would fall under that.

Quote
To say that property is a social construct is...partially right. The idea that the guy with the most and biggest weapons isn't the guy who gets to do whatever he wants with anything and anybody he wants is, indeed, a social construct. But to dismiss "social constructs" as if they are something mutable and all equally good or bad is a dreadful mistake.

I'm not (well, I am saying they're mutable, because they are; and indeed you neatly provide examples of that by listing some which are thankfully no more); I'm doing precisely the opposite, drawing a distinction between those which are beneficial and those which are harmful, and suggesting that the latter might usefully be abandoned.

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: I know
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2014, 02:03:49 PM »
Whereas I tend to think they're less social constructs and more evolved standards based on objectively calculable best-results.

The fact that you never, ever get away from "pay for what you want" and "property belongs first to the guy who makes it" - the fact that if you try, you find black markets evolving faster than you can blink - tells me that property ownership is practically a natural state of human nature. A man instinctively feels he owns his labor, and will only work best when given something he feels is worth it in return. Theft - through extortion or brute force or guile - can work, but they inevitably diminish the overall productivity of the society in which they happen. Respecting property rights - the right of a man to his labor and the fruits thereof - always leads to an overall increase in the wealth and prosperity of the society and the individuals who make it up.

So much so that, absent laws and governments, the first-order despotic regimes that evolve in anarchy form from men protecting what is theirs. And the standards for what is "theirs" tend to be universal on a coarse-grained level, to the point that it is relatively easily recognized when one is a thief, brigand, bandit, or extortionist versus the rightful owner of property that one is protecting. Usually enough, at the least, that it seems obvious to me that there is a natural right to property inherent to the human condition and associated nature.

(The competing, destructive aspect is that very theft, banditry, and extortion to attempt to take what one has not created. To better oneself at the expense of others.)

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: I know
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2014, 02:19:21 PM »
Josh, I appreciate that you addressed my concern about how your ideas here could basically legalize IP theft. I've enjoyed reading the other responses too. It's obvious from the other responses that the biggest issue with your ideas is the role of "official availability". That's the first hurdle. While I'm doubting the UN will want anything to do with IP reform anytime soon, if you can tweak the issues with "official availablity" you may be on to something.

I'd like to add that there are a lot of IP in the world that are proprietary. They're that way for good reasons. Requiring those IPs to be officially available could do many small startups a LOT of harm, and protecting proprietary IPs would create an exploitable loophole where companies could hide the IPs they want to "sit on". You can't make laws forcing companies to act ethically, it's been tried before and generally backfires.

You can, however, create a set of ethical IP laws that companies can voluntarily adhere to - like Creative Commons copyrights, but for IP Rights. Getting businesses to embrace your new IP standards voluntarily will affect more change than the UN trying to force them all to act ethically with new laws.

Just something to think about.

Also, regardless of the issues in your new law ideas it's clear you put a TON of work into this and I, for one, APPLAUD YOUR EFFORTS. Don't get discouraged, you may be mere minutes from achieving something great. Tweak, tweak, tweak - and see what you end up with. Good Luck!

thanks for the insight, sorry for leaving the thread unattended, had to go to hong kong to re-enter china so I can stay another 3 months, then I caught some sort of cold. oh well.

Indeed it seems Official Availability needs to have it's definition changed to prevent abuse

No, I'm saying that large corporations would have the means to still tie up IP while individual copyright holders, like say a self published poet, would not.

In fact, they could easily be at the mercy of large corporations who could steal almost with impunity and then claim copyright because they could defend it.

I can't imagine a worse solution to copyright abuse. The current systems DOES need reform to take into account digital technology and a changing world but it needs to be something that is fair and equitable to large and small copyright holders.


taken into account, I'll edit the text when my head is clear from this cold.

Segev I've read some of your concerns as well and will try to incorporate them as soon as possible.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

LadyShin

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 719
Re: I know
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2014, 07:15:36 PM »
.....But again, I like your line of thinking and think you are on the right track. But besides all that I wrote above, the main thing is to remember that corporations and businesses have a lot of pull in what laws are passed or changed....

This line here is inherently true: There have been major pushes for the courts to recognize corporations as citizens, thereby allowing them to cast popular votes to sway the outcome of elections.
"Frank! It's the love boat to Cuba! Shuffle board and pineapples filled with rum. Know what they do? They put little paper umbrellas sticking out the top so that when it rains, it don't thin out the liquor."

Ironwolf

  • Stubborn as a
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: I know
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2014, 08:58:42 PM »
Ladyshin with all due respect - unions have had the same powers for decades.

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: I know
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2014, 12:02:33 AM »
Unions in no way have the money corporations have. They have been in decline since the early eighties. If they had that kind of power, they wouldn't be losing in almost every fight to protect civil workers pensions (too many cities to mention).
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

MaidMercury

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 470
Re: I know
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2014, 07:13:45 AM »
Honest to goodness -- you have greater chance of convincing the Chinese government to provide you with nuclear weapons for free with free shipping than you have of making any change whatsoever to IP laws -- even the most minor little change.

Really?...Good....I have this pesky old tree stump in my back yard that has resisted chemicals, chopping and Statesman doesn't return my emails,   soooo,  the prospects of a 'FREE" Nuclear weapon is intriguing. ;D

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: I know
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2014, 07:22:07 PM »
Unions in no way have the money corporations have. They have been in decline since the early eighties. If they had that kind of power, they wouldn't be losing in almost every fight to protect civil workers pensions (too many cities to mention).
Actually, they're losing these fights because the workers they "protect" (who don't want the unions' protection racket nor the unions' hands in their pockets nor to support the political causes towards which the unions put a lot of the dues) are voting for laws and legislators who pass things that reduce unions' power to force people to join them, whether they want to or not. ("Join or you can't get a job in your field.")

Unions are VERY powerful, politically, and if they have the right to speak out using money taken from their workers' dues, then so should the corporations have the right to speak out using the money that belongs to their shareholders. Because those shareholders ARE the company's owners, and they have as much right to be heard as do the unions.

If your argument is that the corporations are only representing the CEO and the Board with this money, then I turn around and point out that the same can be said of unions and Union Bosses.

And, um, nobody has ever sought to give corporations-as-entities voting rights. >_> Just protect their right, as conglomerations of people who have First Amendment rights, to exercise the right to speak freely. Which includes the right to use their money to buy air time. Just like unions, just like special interest groups, just like anybody else.

Thunder Glove

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
Re: I know
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2014, 08:23:50 PM »
Still seems unfair.  I think the most telling illustration is Matt Miller, who created Positron for a tabletop RP game long before CoH was a glimmer in anyone's eye, and he now can't use the name or the character because it's "owned" by a company in Asia, a company that had nothing to do with the character's creation, nothing to do with writing any of the character's dialogue, or backstory, or anything.  But they paid him a salary for a couple of years, so suddenly they own it.  They didn't go up to Matt and say "Here's $X for your character", but they own that character just the same.

Intellectual property is almost always owned by people who had absolutely nothing to do with creating it, but by corporations that treat creative people as interchangeable and those people's creations as commodities instead of art.  It's reasoning like that that led to the creation of companies like Activision (back when they were composed of former Atari employees who were sick of not getting any credit for their games, so they quit en masse and started making their own games) and Image Comics (which publishes comics, but doesn't lay any claim to ownership of the characters presented therein), and there should be more of that.

And less "Sorry, you can't play your favorite game of all time because someone thousands of miles away got huffy."

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: I know
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2014, 09:11:31 PM »
I would gladly give up  union money in politics if corporations would do the same. Or even disclose to the shareholders where the money they donate goes. If, as you say, those donations represent the wishes of the shareholder's what's the harm in telling them how they spent it? Justice Kennedy, who voted for it, thought that was what was going to happen. But I guess liberals aren't the only ones living in ivory towers.

Citizen's United didn't level the playing field, it dug a huge sinkhole and tossed the Republic in.

But the argument ultimately fails when you look at the money flowing into Super PACS since Citizen's United passed. It's massive compared to all the money spent in previous election cycle, surpassing what Dems and Republicans raised together.

Further, simple math should tell you that if union membership is declining as you say then the money they collect is shrinking, not growing. Corporate profits have never been higher. Corporate donations have never been higher. If you follow the money it's pretty clear who has the power. Who has benefited?

We might discuss the efficacy of corporate donations, but not it's existence.

Specifically, in this thread, the RIAA and MPAA have spent lavishly to lobby, conjoule and bribe to extend copyright far beyond what the founding father's wrote into law. Those are both well known mouth pieces for big media companies. It is their interest to lock up content forever, or least as long as they can squeeze a buck out of it. It is not in the interest of the public. It seems clear that the intention was to protect the creator and his heirs for a reasonable time, not forever.

The question is simple: At some point a work or art, whether written, recorded or painted,  belongs to the world as part of it's cultural heritage. The argument is how long does that take?

Corporations say "It never happens. Steamboat Willie is ours forever and ever." I say 25 years from initial creators death.

(Which would not unlock COH in any circumstance and why this idea of changing copyright is unworkable in COH's case. Besides, Ex Post Facto would certainly give NCSoft time to mend any deficiencies in regards to protecting the IP)
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: I know
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2014, 09:20:38 PM »
Still seems unfair.  I think the most telling illustration is Matt Miller, who created Positron for a tabletop RP game long before CoH was a glimmer in anyone's eye, and he now can't use the name or the character because it's "owned" by a company in Asia, a company that had nothing to do with the character's creation, nothing to do with writing any of the character's dialogue, or backstory, or anything.  But they paid him a salary for a couple of years, so suddenly they own it.  They didn't go up to Matt and say "Here's $X for your character", but they own that character just the same.

Intellectual property is almost always owned by people who had absolutely nothing to do with creating it, but by corporations that treat creative people as interchangeable and those people's creations as commodities instead of art.  It's reasoning like that that led to the creation of companies like Activision (back when they were composed of former Atari employees who were sick of not getting any credit for their games, so they quit en masse and started making their own games) and Image Comics (which publishes comics, but doesn't lay any claim to ownership of the characters presented therein), and there should be more of that.

And less "Sorry, you can't play your favorite game of all time because someone thousands of miles away got huffy."


Oh it is unfair. "work for hire" contracts for creators can not help but screw the creator. But, like Wille Sutton, who famously responded that he robbed banks "because that's where the money is",  If you want to work in creating things like MMO's that's what you have to do. His best option would have been to not use the character in the game, especially if he could prove that it was created before he signed with Cryptic. Actually, probably anything he created while he worked for Cryptic or NCSoft, whether they used it or not, is legally theirs. That's the way most work for hire contracts work. Assuming they didn't make him sign a non compete clause, he can go on and work for another company who do the exact same thing.

Or inventors. If you work for a tech company and invent some totally unrelated thing on your own time there is a pretty good chance they either own it or a very large piece of it.

Why do people do it? Because a little bit of something can look awfully good when you have nothing.
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: I know
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2014, 02:48:00 PM »
If the creators know they're being hired to create something for somebody else, it's not "unfair." You're right, that's where the money is. They could not GET paid to create these things for more - or, if they could, they should go out and find those means.

"Fair" is such a strange concept. We all think we know what it means, but in truth, the only "fairness" lies in giving men the freedom to choose whether to labor or not, and for whom. "Who" he works for could also be "himself," note.

Working with MWM, I am honestly hesitant to include Segev Stormlord in the game we're making for much the same reason as you listed with Matt Miller. It has its enticing aspects: I'd get to see my character enshrined in published work, among other things. But it also means that Segev becomes the property of MWM, and not mine to do with as I pleased.

Consider, though: If I took Segev and tried to sell products based on him right now, there'd be very few (I would dare say "no") buyers.

If Matt Miller had done the same with Positron long before the character made it into CoH canon, I suspect that, too, would have been largely devoid of monetary benefit to him.

By including Segev in City of Titans, or Positron in CoH, these characters (would) gain public awareness and appeal. Their value as a branded item increases.

Matt Miller doesn't own Positron anymore; he sold it to CoH as part of his work for it. The whole body of work that is CoH built the value of Positron as a piece of IP; it was the work of MANY people, paid for with money by those who would own it, that went into building value in Positron.

The same would be true of Segev Stormlord, if he became included in City of Titans. He would be a valuable piece of intellectual property because he is a part of that larger work which has given him visibility and built his popularity. Moreover, I know, going in, if I allow him to be included, I am giving up my exclusive rights to the character to MWM. I know it, and it's my choice. It's not theft, and it's not "unfair." "Unfair" is denying people the right to make a choice. If "unfair" is "two unpleasant alternatives," though, then it is life that is "unfair," and there's no use griping about it.

"Fair" is such a funny concept. We all think we know what it means, and often can agree, but when we can't, boy does it get heated.

Thunder Glove

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
Re: I know
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2014, 03:55:26 PM »
Yes, but since it's a small brand-new company composed of volunteers who are specifically trying not to repeat the mistakes that NCSoft made, MWM can just as easily write into the company credo from the start "NPCs placed in this game remain the property of their respective creators" (with more legalese, and with the caveat that MWM retains rights to use the characters in the game once they're placed so a disgruntled creator can't just demand the character be taken out of the game once it's been incorporated into existing stories and lore, etc, etc - I'm not a lawyer, but I'm sure you get my meaning), rather than "All NPCs placed into this game are ours, all ours, forever and ever, and we can do whatever we like with them!" like a typical MMO.

I thought the whole idea was NOT to be a "typical" MMO.

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: I know
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2014, 04:18:39 PM »
The difference is that, unless they have changed it, MWM doesn't get exclusive rights to your creation, just within the game world. You could use him in other projects because you still own him.

That is much more fair.
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

thunderforce

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I know
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2014, 04:36:45 PM »
Whereas I tend to think they're less social constructs and more evolved standards based on objectively calculable best-results.

Where we are is a best result, with the copyright term extending to infinity, the farce of software patents, and - well, City of Heroes locked up in NC's cupboard? I think it's pretty clear that lobbying from Big Copyright has moved us a long way from any kind of optimum - even given that the mechanism is artificial scarcity.

Quote
The fact that you never, ever get away from "pay for what you want" and "property belongs first to the guy who makes it"

Every time you pay your taxes you get away from that. Some belongs to you; some goes to the public good. And what better to take, for the public good, than property you aren't using and intend never to sell?

Quote
A man instinctively feels he owns his labor, and will only work best when given something he feels is worth it in return. Theft - through extortion or brute force or guile - can work, but they inevitably diminish the overall productivity of the society in which they happen. Respecting property rights - the right of a man to his labor and the fruits thereof - always leads to an overall increase in the wealth and prosperity of the society and the individuals who make it up.

This sort of platitude does rather neglect the specifics. The cobbler is incentivised to make shoes because they anticipate selling shoes, not in order to lock them in their basement and let them collect dust - and indeed, if they did the latter, we'd gain little by incentivising them to do so. Cryptic were incentivised to create City of Heroes because the law created a structure to take our money for playing it, not by the idea that the law was also going to enable another company entirely to hide it under the mattress and not take anyone's money for it in eight years' time.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2014, 01:41:18 AM »

Every time you pay your taxes you get away from that. Some belongs to you; some goes to the public good. And what better to take, for the public good, than property you aren't using and intend never to sell?



hmmm.

The government already does this from time to time. Usually state, city or county level though.

And even that is a hot subject in the meaning of property rights. As there is already clauses (or similar terms) in the law that allows the government at least to gain stuff and release for the common good. Sometimes a private owned entity or person petitions, like land development rights but there is some old man sitting on a desirable piece that could do good for the community. Some are against even that because it violates the property rights of the old man. Others say, damn right they should take it for the better of the public good.


And sometimes do it with things that are not real estate or land.

The thing though is how to define "for the public good." I think even with the for the public good clause, NCSOSFT would still be able to sit on the IP either way because as enjoyable as a video game is, it probably not enough of a public good to over ride the rights of the owner. And when I say public good I mean as a whole. Because it might be part of the way to help change the laws in cases like that but it will have to be beyond "The copyright and IP laws should be changed because I want my game back."




But IP laws especially digital has grown to be a totally different animal. Unlike many eminent domain laws, Copyright/IP protection have lot of treaties with lot of other countries bound to it. While usurping American companies' IP would be a simple changing of the law. It would be different animal when dealing with foreign companies especially one that is also part of that treaty agreement.

 
Then again, if one can create something and have it taken away because someone else wants it, then what incentive is there to create? I think in the mmo game world, it would have drastic changes on the type of games being made. Companies probably would take risk outside the success formula (fantasy mmo games). Because there would be no protection for a game that do not do as well as they hope and end up either being a money pit to keep it going to end up losing it and everything they put into it. Either way, the risk would be a lose lose situation for the creator. Meaning there if there was laws of the use or lose IP type was in effect in 2000, COX probably wouldn't have ever existed and the choices out there in the game world would have been very slim.

Yeah yeah I know some have mindset of "I don't care about corporations." Which is fine. But then, why should corporations care about the public good of people that do not care about them? Thus leaving them no incentive to look out for any interest but their own, on both sides. So then it boils down influence. Usually corporations will fight cut throat against each other when it comes to business but even they know sometimes they must work together to get laws that favor them to pass. People as a whole haven't gotten that work together part down pack. "But they have billions of dollars". Those billions didn't pop up out of no where. It came from the people whether through buying their goods, or through tax money. Thus the group that works as a team of course have more influence in the law and political realm. Usually when corporate sponsored bills get presented it's usually lays out what they want why they want it and how it will benefit the people (truth or false). People side, it's a mad house. Most of the time they rather fight each other for the spotlight instead of getting it together.  But those times when people do get it together and go with an actual structured purpose, they achieve a lot and sometimes have more pull than any corporation. History have shown.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 01:54:01 AM by JaguarX »

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: I know
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2014, 06:07:44 AM »
Corporations DON'T care about he public good. They don't care about art or any kind of intangible unless it helps make more money for the bottom line. That's what they are designed to do and nothing else.

Everything is a calculated PR move to bolster image and protect stock prices. When a corporation does something charitable it is because a person there decided to do it or because with the deduction for charitable contribution and the offset to PR expenses it comes up positive.

A person can appreciate art. A person can sacrifice for another. A person can give a damn about people dying.

A corporation can calculate about how much it might cost to license art. A corporation can determine the cost of a valued employees loss. A corporation can regret the loss of potential customers. That's all.
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

Taceus Jiwede

  • Time Traveler
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 978
Re: I know
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2014, 08:02:44 AM »
Quote
By including Segev in City of Titans, or Positron in CoH, these characters (would) gain public awareness and appeal. Their value as a branded item increases.

What if you owned Segev before you put him in the game?  Like what if Matt Miller had copyrighted Position before he ever got a job at these companies?  Would they not allow the character in game so they didn't have to pay to use his rights?  What if you put Segev in the game and then didn't ask for money from MVM?  I am just curious if you could use the character in anyway while protecting him as your character.

Ironwolf

  • Stubborn as a
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: I know
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2014, 02:06:24 PM »
Jim Butcher played Harry Dresden in game. He did have to get permission and likely sign a waiver, for use IN the game.

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: I know
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2014, 02:43:51 PM »
This sort of platitude does rather neglect the specifics. The cobbler is incentivised to make shoes because they anticipate selling shoes, not in order to lock them in their basement and let them collect dust - and indeed, if they did the latter, we'd gain little by incentivising them to do so.
On the contrary: it is quite possible to make the cobbler feel that he should sit on his talents and skills and not make shoes. Simply do not allow him to profit from them.

If he makes shoes that he sells for enormous sums, such that he only has to make a few dozen a year to live a lavish lifestyle, the same arguments that claim NCSoft shouldn't be allowed to "sit" on this IP could be used to say he shouldn't be allowed to "sit" on his shoe-making skills and refuse to make shoes that everybody can afford.

It is worth noting that NCSoft isn't "incentivized" to sit on this IP, either. That they are doing so means we either don't see the profit they expect to make, or that they are irrational. We may gain little by allowing them to do so, but we gain little by allowing that cobbler to keep his shoes in his basement rather than selling them. And yet, if we forcibly took from that cobbler his shoes, other cobblers would realize that they could not choose to whom to sell them and for what price, either, and would feel less incentivized to make shoes.

If we take the IP from NCSoft, what's to stop "us" from taking it from anybody else? When a company cannot count on being able to treat their intellectual property like any other property, they are disincentivized from investing in it.

Cryptic were incentivised to create City of Heroes because the law created a structure to take our money for playing it, not by the idea that the law was also going to enable another company entirely to hide it under the mattress and not take anyone's money for it in eight years' time.
Cryptic may have sold it to NCSoft, but they had reasons for doing so.Without the freedom to do so - without the incentive of that potential for backing, and heck, without the backing from those who have money to support you through your efforts of creating the work - we will see far fewer creative works produced.

Again, NCSoft either sees profit in this - perhaps has plans for using it in some way in their ongoing plans - or NCSoft is being as irrational as the cobbler who suddenly hides away his stock in the basement. There is no incentive for them to sit on it, not in IP law. No more than there is incentive for a cobbler to let shoes gather dust in his basement when people clamor at his door to buy them.

Is our current IP law perfect? No, it isn't. But you ARE advocating post-hoc slavery - or at least theft - when you advocate intellectual property not belonging to its creator (or the person to whom he sold it) if he doesn't distribute it in the way you feel he should.



Now. Regarding NPCs in MWM's products. The legalese behind "you can still use it" is very, very involved. It is not recommended that you give us NPCs that are beloved creations independent of your efforts to work with MWM on our projects. You can, and it is an opportunity to see them enshrined in a game as part of an official canon, but the legal issues are such that you ARE giving up rights to exclusivity.

If you're a pro-Choice type, imagine if I were to get Segev included in the game, but retained full rights to use him however else I chose. I then took all the iconic imagery around him and his nefarious villainy, and used him in a wide-spread real-world campaign comparing abortion to baby-murdering and tying - through the auspices of Segev - the whole project to a pro-life agenda.

If you're a conservative Republican, imagine if somebody's personal hero NPC - Patriotism Man or something - were in the game, but their retention of full rights allowed them to advertise using Patriotism Man for Hillary Clinton in the upcoming elections, and tie the project to that political bent.

We have to be very careful about the rights to anything we include in our game, because we want to be able to control the perception of what the game as a whole represents. While I, personally, would love to see a roughly even split of political, ethical, moral, and other beliefs amongst our NPCs, and enable this to have within the game-world the same sorts of debates that happen in the real one (and maybe milk the darned politicians for some of their campaign funds to support the game), even THAT is risky.

People play these games as a form of escapism. It is generally best if we AVOID bringing real-world politics in, as much as possible. It risks too much painting one viewpoint as "heroic" and the other as "villainous." And while some would doubtless agree with the portrayals, others would be offended.

And because we need to control these associations, and because of even stickier issues of "who does a sponsor approach to use such-and-such NPC?" we need to be very careful about who "owns" and how people can use NPCs.

That doesn't mean there won't be a lot people can do with their NPCs, necessarily. William Shatner appears at Star Trek conventions as "Captain Kirk," still, I believe. I don't know if Paramount gets a cut of that. But you can bet they'd want a cut of anything that "Captain Kirk" appeared in to endorse a product. And the right to say "heck no" if they thought that endorsement damaged their Star Trek property.

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: I know
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2014, 05:58:40 PM »
Segev,

The situation that you describe is extremely unlikely to occur. Law and rules should be drafted to address the most likely to occur, not anomalies. I certainly understand why businesses want to tie up everything they can. That doesn't mean it is in the public interest or the interest of the creator. Do you believe that there is never a case where public interest should trump property ownership?

In almost every case of copyright infringement it is about denial of potential to profit. Basically, they didn't get their cut. Very,very seldom is copyright invoked to stop objectionable use. There are defenses for using copyrighted material, in the case of satire for instance or illustration. Courts have held that this is fair use as long as it follows certain guidelines, like length or quote and so forth. Being editorialized as a jackass isn't actionable.

What you are describing is more likely to happen with trademark than copyright. Copyright infringement is pretty specific whereas trademark is very open to interpretation. Unless it is a direct clone, trademarks could be similar but not exact. Further, trademark has to be vigorously defended or the trademark owner runs the risk of forfeiting trademark protection.

Usually, a court has to decide if it gets that far. In most cases though large trademark holders bury the offender in so much paperwork that they give up the fight, whether they infringed or not.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 01:44:02 AM by TheDevilYouKnow »
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

ROBOKiTTY

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 183
  • KiTTYRiffic
    • KiTTYLand
Re: I know
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2014, 10:07:49 PM »
The ideology is strong in this one.
Have you played with a KiTTY today?

thunderforce

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I know
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2014, 04:39:09 AM »
On the contrary: it is quite possible to make the cobbler feel that he should sit on his talents and skills and not make shoes. Simply do not allow him to profit from them.

Which is not analogous to the proposal, so I'm not sure why you mention it.

Quote
It is worth noting that NCSoft isn't "incentivized" to sit on this IP, either.

Indeed. The law intended to promote creation, as a side effect, permits damaging actions.

Quote
And yet, if we forcibly took from that cobbler his shoes, other cobblers would realize that they could not choose to whom to sell them and for what price, either, and would feel less incentivized to make shoes.

Well, no, they wouldn't, because taking something that's simply going to waste has no implications for things that are actively being sold.

Quote
If we take the IP from NCSoft, what's to stop "us" from taking it from anybody else?

What indeed? I'm generally in favour of stopping companies sitting on abandoned IP.

Quote
When a company cannot count on being able to treat their intellectual property like any other property, they are disincentivized from investing in it.

This is the same dodge; "any other property" can be, and routinely is, taxed in the public interest. It's not an absolute right either.

Quote
Cryptic may have sold it to NCSoft, but they had reasons for doing so.Without the freedom to do so

A freedom I am not advocating denying them, so again, what's your point?

Quote
But you ARE advocating post-hoc slavery - or at least theft - when you advocate intellectual property not belonging to its creator (or the person to whom he sold it) if he doesn't distribute it in the way you feel he should.

That is pure hyperbole. It would no more be slavery or theft than taxation is.

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: I know
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2014, 02:24:52 PM »
Thinking it over with a clear mind, because the articles I wrote so far deal with products and services, a new line is necessary to distinguish the difference between an artistic work and a product or service.

Simply stated

An Artistic work is the property of it's creator as long as it is fulfilling the creator's original intention for producing it.

will finish later strapped for time atm.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Floride

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
  • Badgehunter Extraordinaire
Re: I know
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2014, 03:58:10 AM »
Admittedly, I am dangerous to this discussion because I have a "little bit of knowledge" as pertains to IP. (In all honesty, I know more-than-usual about copyright and next to nothing about IP).
So query me this, those in the know. If I take a work of intelligent property - say, widget.exe - and decompress it and compress it using my own proprietary compression software, is it now a new IP, seeing as how the 1's and 0's and even the file size are all vastly different from the original? Just wondering how specific can IP rights go. I'm not trying to take over Joshex's original them, I've just always wondered about this.
History shows again and again
How nature points out the folly of men

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: I know
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2014, 04:03:59 AM »
widget.exe isn't *all* of the IP - the code that makes up the program is the IP as well. How it's compressed doesn't change the base, uncompressed text/architecture.
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2014, 04:05:23 AM »
widget.exe isn't *all* of the IP - the code that makes up the program is the IP as well. How it's compressed doesn't change the base, uncompressed text/architecture.
this.

Floride

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
  • Badgehunter Extraordinaire
Re: I know
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2014, 04:08:20 AM »
Thanks. Now I have more than a little info, so I'm even more dangerous :D
But seriously, thanks guys.
History shows again and again
How nature points out the folly of men

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: I know
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2014, 05:34:34 AM »
Admittedly, I am dangerous to this discussion because I have a "little bit of knowledge" as pertains to IP. (In all honesty, I know more-than-usual about copyright and next to nothing about IP).
So query me this, those in the know. If I take a work of intelligent property - say, widget.exe - and decompress it and compress it using my own proprietary compression software, is it now a new IP, seeing as how the 1's and 0's and even the file size are all vastly different from the original? Just wondering how specific can IP rights go. I'm not trying to take over Joshex's original them, I've just always wondered about this.

Compression doesn't actually change the original version. When you compress and decompress the widget.exe, it is essentially the same exact program. A more interesting case is if you take the .exe and recompile it, is that a new program (and no longer protected)?

No, it's not. Because (assuming that it worked at all, which is doubtful) it would still be based on the same source code and if that was protected any compile version from the code would also be protected.

Also, Floride, you have to take into account that whatever opinions are offered non of them really count until a court rules on a specific issue. Essentially, we can talk about precedents from legal cases and look to what past courts have ruled (Sony Fair use case, Apple vs Microsoft) and even though judges are loath to overturn precedents, until it reaches court, a judgement is rendered and all appeals have been exhausted there is no certain way to know what is legal. The law may seem perfectly clear, but there are always variables that have not been considered. If their weren't we wouldn't need judges in the first place.
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2014, 08:28:28 AM »
Compression doesn't actually change the original version. When you compress and decompress the widget.exe, it is essentially the same exact program. A more interesting case is if you take the .exe and recompile it, is that a new program (and no longer protected)?

No, it's not. Because (assuming that it worked at all, which is doubtful) it would still be based on the same source code and if that was protected any compile version from the code would also be protected.

Also, Floride, you have to take into account that whatever opinions are offered non of them really count until a court rules on a specific issue. Essentially, we can talk about precedents from legal cases and look to what past courts have ruled (Sony Fair use case, Apple vs Microsoft) and even though judges are loath to overturn precedents, until it reaches court, a judgement is rendered and all appeals have been exhausted there is no certain way to know what is legal. The law may seem perfectly clear, but there are always variables that have not been considered. If their weren't we wouldn't need judges in the first place.

Indeed.





"Well you know how they used to slaughter beeves, hit 'em with a maul right here to stun 'em... and then up and slit their throats? Well here Charlie has one trussed up and all set to drain him and the beef comes to. It starts thrashing around, six hundred pounds of very pissed-off livestock if you'll pardon me... Charlie grabs his gun there to shoot the damn thing in the head but what with the swingin' and twistin' it's a glance-shot and ricochets around and comes back hits Charlie in the shoulder. You go see Charlie, he still can't reach up with his right hand for his hat... Point bein', even in the contest between man and steer the issue is not certain. " Ed Tom Bell -No Country for Old Men

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: I know
« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2014, 01:38:04 PM »
As I believe this post has gotten a bit deep into philosophy rather than addressing the topic, I will leave it for those who care, but will refrain from arguing it further in this thread. My apologies to those who may already be annoyed by the digression.
That is pure hyperbole. It would no more be slavery or theft than taxation is.
When taxes are used more on things one does not support than on things one does, it is remarkably akin to theft. Legalized theft, but theft nonetheless. There was this whole revolution fought over "no taxation without representation."

Now, one can argue that he has representation, but the majority is against him. Likewise, however, one can point out that claiming it's perfectly okay to vote to take away everything from one person because he's just one person and can't out-vote the other 100 in his tiny village.

What you're advocating is dictating how somebody must utilize their creative efforts and how their specific property must be disposed of. There's a reason any legitimate taxation takes the form of a fungible good: it is the least onerous and most equal way to take the "share" of government costs from those for whom the government (at least theoretically) works. Imminent Domain is already a much-abused law, and likewise only exists for very extreme cases where enormous public good is being held up by one person attempting to extort or unreasonably block it. And in any justifiable use thereof, many others have already given comparable amounts of property towards that project, and the victims of Imminent Domain are the lone hold-out.

Any time Imminent Domain has been used to force single property-holders to turn over specific property where few to no others were required to, it is being abused. (And this is usually only the case when it's abused for such things as a Wal*Mart being 'good for taxes' so another store has to give up its land to Wal*Mart. As happened to a Saturn dealership a decade or so ago near where I grew up.)

Nobody has a right to property created or bought by another, outside of bankruptcy. His heirs inherit because of his right to choose disposition of his property.

Taxes are monetary because it's the least invasive form of legitemized theft: it takes a wholly replaceable good - that is, something fungible - rather than something that, even if he labored just as hard for ten times as long, he might never be able to replicate or replace.

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: I know
« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2014, 09:44:08 PM »
It's cool I think. Nobody got nasty and it was a pretty good discussion about IP, copyright, trademark and corporate media holders.

Pretty hard to talk about this stuff without some discussion of public vs private rights and how they intersect with the law and politics, since they are inextricably bound together. If we can't rationally discuss the philosophical underpinnings or our society, government and world we will be left with nothing but the most powerful saying "Because I can, that's way!" I can't beleive that any thoughtful person, right or left, would envision that as a pleasant world to live in.

If reasonable people can not discuss our problems and beliefs, how will we ever find common ground?
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2014, 12:34:27 AM »
It's cool I think. Nobody got nasty and it was a pretty good discussion about IP, copyright, trademark and corporate media holders.

Pretty hard to talk about this stuff without some discussion of public vs private rights and how they intersect with the law and politics, since they are inextricably bound together. If we can't rationally discuss the philosophical underpinnings or our society, government and world we will be left with nothing but the most powerful saying "Because I can, that's way!" I can't beleive that any thoughtful person, right or left, would envision that as a pleasant world to live in.

If reasonable people can not discuss our problems and beliefs, how will we ever find common ground?
truth

Captain Electric

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 674
  • Crime doesn't pay, evildoers!
    • CoH Faces Profile
Re: I know
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2014, 06:14:36 AM »

Pinnacle Blue

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 130
  • Pinnacle Server is best server.
Re: I know
« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2014, 06:52:07 AM »
Warshades don't take Alphas.  They give Alphas.

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: I know
« Reply #62 on: January 28, 2014, 08:56:51 AM »
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: I know
« Reply #63 on: January 28, 2014, 10:07:34 AM »

thunderforce

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I know
« Reply #64 on: January 28, 2014, 11:05:42 AM »
When taxes are used more on things one does not support than on things one does, it is remarkably akin to theft.

Let's be clear; no, it isn't. This is basically libertarian propaganda in favour of government that does nothing except prevents certain kinds of violence and enforces property rights (including, curiously, the complicated system of artificial monopolies called "intellectual property" (1), a purely state-created subsidy for creative works, which must take a bit of doublethinking; if the market can take care of everything else, why can't it take care of this?) because they are somehow sacred; a Humpty Dumpty exercise in using words to mean whatever you choose them to mean. "Theft" has a meaning, and this ain't it.

Quote
There was this whole revolution fought over "no taxation without representation."

Well, I'm not proposing to take the vote away from anyone.

Quote
There's a reason any legitimate taxation takes the form of a fungible good: it is the least onerous and most equal way to take the "share" of government costs from those for whom the government (at least theoretically) works.

I can think of something less onerous; something you aren't using anymore and have no intention of ever using. The assertion that fungible goods are least onerous is completely unsupported here.

Quote
Nobody has a right to property created or bought by another, outside of bankruptcy. His heirs inherit because of his right to choose disposition of his property.

Actually, in most jurisdictions his heirs don't inherit all of it; the state takes a decent wodge - and good for it; I can hardly think of anyone who can less onerously be taxed than dead people.

Quote
Taxes are monetary because it's the least invasive form of legitemized theft: it takes a wholly replaceable good - that is, something fungible - rather than something that, even if he labored just as hard for ten times as long, he might never be able to replicate or replace.

This doesn't really make sense for two reasons. First of all, if I write a book and the state declines to give me an artificial monopoly on copies of it - not "taking anything" from me, note, but declining to give me something, which is what the situation actually would be with works being placed in the public domain - I can still make copies of it as well as anyone, so I'm certainly not in the situation that I can't replicate or replace it. I've lost the ability to make money off it, but again; if I own a bicycle which I plan to sell, and the government gives everyone a bicycle, that is unfortunate for me but it is absurd to argue that the government has stolen my bicycle.

Secondly, it is very much the case that if you take fungible goods from someone, they might never be able - no matter how long and hard they labour - to replace them. There are two kinds of rich people; clever people who know they're lucky, and lucky people who think they're clever; and equally amongst the comfortably-off middle class (like me, I admit) success is a matter of good fortune as well as wits and ability; most poor people work harder than any of us, but are often in the situation where a run of bad luck can ruin them regardless, and once you're on skid row you don't tend to come back.

1) In all fairness to "libertarians", not all of them favour state interference here.

thunderforce

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I know
« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2014, 11:09:41 AM »
So query me this, those in the know. If I take a work of intelligent property - say, widget.exe - and decompress it and compress it using my own proprietary compression software, is it now a new IP, seeing as how the 1's and 0's and even the file size are all vastly different from the original? Just wondering how specific can IP rights go. I'm not trying to take over Joshex's original them, I've just always wondered about this.

Yes. Copyright law is typically defined in terms like "derivative works", and what that means is down to a combination of case law and the courts. Of course, the courts sometimes get it wrong - especially in cases involving technology - but in principle, if a reasonable well-informed person would say it was a derivative work, it's covered. What you propose is a bit analogous to retypesetting a book in a different font and page size, with a different colour cover; a caveman with no idea what writing was would conclude it was an entirely different object, but to us it's the same book.

ROBOKiTTY

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 183
  • KiTTYRiffic
    • KiTTYLand
Re: I know
« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2014, 09:11:42 AM »
Excellent analysis. ;D
Have you played with a KiTTY today?

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: I know
« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2014, 07:27:41 AM »
It's cool I think. Nobody got nasty and it was a pretty good discussion about IP, copyright, trademark and corporate media holders.

Pretty hard to talk about this stuff without some discussion of public vs private rights and how they intersect with the law and politics, since they are inextricably bound together. If we can't rationally discuss the philosophical underpinnings or our society, government and world we will be left with nothing but the most powerful saying "Because I can, that's way!" I can't beleive that any thoughtful person, right or left, would envision that as a pleasant world to live in.

If reasonable people can not discuss our problems and beliefs, how will we ever find common ground?

indeed, government is a matter of 'assumed power' that is power based on support of those willing to join your efforts with enough support of people who actually care about a topic any governmental change is possible.

well as soon as I catch up with my math homework I'll attempt to word this better to accomodate against all possibilities of abuse. - linear algebra is no joke when the textbook gives you questions whose principles have not be directly explained in the text or examples.

however if someone else wants to try at it, be my guest, the quicker it's done the better, doesn't matter who does it. ;)
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2014, 07:52:54 AM »
indeed, government is a matter of 'assumed power' that is power based on support of those willing to join your efforts with enough support of people who actually care about a topic any governmental change is possible.

yep. That about sums up about how it works. The ones that cast the wider net and more support have greater chance of success. And more support can be gained by having people being able to relate.

With the one tough question that is easy to ask but harder to answer when trying to get people to join the cause  is "Why should one care about that goal?" Then it goes to relating. While on the other side of the fence many people are quick to dismiss people that right now do not see any issue with copyright laws or the way corporations can shut down game. Many forget they was once on the other side of the fence. That can be a strength and a great weakness. A strength, because it can be used, if used with understanding and not judgmental, to relate or it can be a bane, coming off as simply only caring now and wanting to do something only now because it was personally effecting when if the shutdown never happened, would have given two craps about the corporations running games.

Then there is so much vastness in the way corporation run thing and plenty of disgruntled folks out there especially in this day and age that are down right pissed at corporations. Just have to find a way to relate, and I guarantee you, when people get together and ask for something, and use their power, all the money corporate money it the world cant stop it. But have to be more warm welcoming, and humble though and remember a little more than a year many people wasn't thinking about copyright, corporate closing games, and whether it's morally right or not and etc. Just like many that still have their game to play are thinking. COX wasn't the first game, and it definitely isn't the last game to be shut down. The question is, should a game shut down only be an issue only when it personally affects a person? Or is this an issue that should have been nipped in the budding stage? Well the latter's time  have past and maybe it's time for full blown weed killer, but at the same time, to change it, if that is the route that some are interested in taking, it cant come off as vindictive or simple looking like it's merely to punish corporations because then in the end it turns more against than for. But the real reason is more internal honesty. One have to ask, if they are doing it simply because the yare pissed because their game, and only care about their game got shut down so now it's an issue or is it true belief that something is wrong with the system. Because the government from local, city, state, to even federal gets all kinds of complaints day in and day out about businesses and corporations and have become exceeding efficient at weeding out those that seem to be pissed simply over one incident because the person didn't take the time to read the fine print or something that is truly suspect.

Floride

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
  • Badgehunter Extraordinaire
Re: I know
« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2014, 09:55:00 AM »
With the one tough question that is easy to ask but harder to answer when trying to get people to join the cause  is "Why should one care about that goal?" Then it goes to relating. While on the other side of the fence many people are quick to dismiss people that right now do not see any issue with copyright laws or the way corporations can shut down game.
Huzzah!!
After the shutdown, few people IRL understood my pain, and asked that very question. Didn't take me long to figure out why: It's a paradox. If they have to ask, they are already demonstrating they are incapable of understanding the answer.
For instance, if someone asks "Why should one care about rising taxes?", they are demonstrating an enormous amount of ignorance to basic economics, and won't understand the balance between capitalism and wealth distribution and other related categories that will be affected (effected?). Ironically, I count myself among those ignorant fools  ;D
The question here is "Why should one care about keeping a Virtual Community online?"
Virtual Communities are still in their infancy. It's going to take something big, like a  Facebook shutdown, and millions of people feeling such loss and displacement, and their spending habits being drastically altered by such an event, before discussions about the value of Virtual Communities will be taken seriously.
Many bigger communities will need to be axed, and many millions of dollars missing from bottom lines, before businesses will see the real value these Virtual Communities offer. Then the businesses that used to shutdown these communities will be the ones pushing for legislation to protect the communities from shutdowns.

One day lawyers will draft laws to protect us from businesses that wield their IPs the way a child wields a loaded gun, but not until the answer is so obvious that they don't even need to ask "Why should we care about Virtual Communities?". It won't become obvious to them until Virtual Communities account for huge chunks in business model pie charts. And that won't happen until businesses analyze (and take seriously) the relationship between Virtual Communities and long term spending habits.

And as always, my disclaimer: "IMO"!
History shows again and again
How nature points out the folly of men

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2014, 11:58:53 PM »
Huzzah!!
After the shutdown, few people IRL understood my pain, and asked that very question. Didn't take me long to figure out why: It's a paradox. If they have to ask, they are already demonstrating they are incapable of understanding the answer.
For instance, if someone asks "Why should one care about rising taxes?", they are demonstrating an enormous amount of ignorance to basic economics, and won't understand the balance between capitalism and wealth distribution and other related categories that will be affected (effected?). Ironically, I count myself among those ignorant fools  ;D
The question here is "Why should one care about keeping a Virtual Community online?"
Virtual Communities are still in their infancy. It's going to take something big, like a  Facebook shutdown, and millions of people feeling such loss and displacement, and their spending habits being drastically altered by such an event, before discussions about the value of Virtual Communities will be taken seriously.
Many bigger communities will need to be axed, and many millions of dollars missing from bottom lines, before businesses will see the real value these Virtual Communities offer. Then the businesses that used to shutdown these communities will be the ones pushing for legislation to protect the communities from shutdowns.

One day lawyers will draft laws to protect us from businesses that wield their IPs the way a child wields a loaded gun, but not until the answer is so obvious that they don't even need to ask "Why should we care about Virtual Communities?". It won't become obvious to them until Virtual Communities account for huge chunks in business model pie charts. And that won't happen until businesses analyze (and take seriously) the relationship between Virtual Communities and long term spending habits.

And as always, my disclaimer: "IMO"!
bingo.

Because sometimes it, IMO unfortunate, that it takes the significant emotional event to hit directly on a person before they understand what the people that was before them felt like.

Like this one guy. Good job, been working all his life, two masters and was working on a PhD, wife, kids, the good life. Never understood the point of the government paying assistance to people out of work. In fact throughout the years he was a stout advocate for getting rid of it completely. To him, those one government assistance were lazy leeches of tax dollars. That is, until cut backs happened and he found himself out of a job. Although at first he figured it would be easy. "they laid me off, but I'll find another job easy." A few months later, no job. Savings getting slim, sold off all the stuff he could, a few more months later still no job even though he was working hard at trying to get a job. Then he too had to reply on gov. assistance, the same stuff he wanted to wipe off the face of the planet. Only then did he soften his stance, a lot, once he was found in the situation where without that government check he would have been straight homeless and probably starving to death along with his family. It took that emotional event to get him to emphasize with what thousands of people deal with every day. And realize not all of them are the lazy bums he described them as. Sometimes as he realized, sometimes crap just happens to people regardless of how many diplomas you have hanging on the wall.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 12:10:42 AM by JaguarX »

Ohioknight

  • Celebrating Columbus Day
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
  • 65 years old
Re: I know
« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2014, 09:52:37 PM »
Hope you find something soon, Jag.
"Wow, a fat, sarcastic, Star Trek fan, you must be a devil with the ladies"

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #72 on: February 02, 2014, 02:26:51 AM »
Hope you find something soon, Jag.

find what?

Angel Phoenix77

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,136
  • I am Phoenix !!
Re: I know
« Reply #73 on: February 02, 2014, 10:26:04 PM »
find what?
I think he means find a way to get our game back. truth be told so do i
One day the Phoenix will rise again.

Ohioknight

  • Celebrating Columbus Day
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
  • 65 years old
Re: I know
« Reply #74 on: February 03, 2014, 01:53:21 AM »
Actually, I was snarkily suggesting that Jag's rather extended discussion of a guy who lost his job and then came to understand unemployment must have been self-referential... but never mind.
"Wow, a fat, sarcastic, Star Trek fan, you must be a devil with the ladies"

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #75 on: February 03, 2014, 05:08:54 AM »
Actually, I was snarkily suggesting that Jag's rather extended discussion of a guy who lost his job and then came to understand unemployment must have been self-referential... but never mind.
Oh.


Yeah I never been unemployed since 18. *knock on wood*. Even when I switched jobs, it ended up being lined up where I was still getting paid on leave from the old job while starting the new job.

While my luck didn't extend to the COX RNG rolls, it sure is up and kicking in real life it seems.

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: I know
« Reply #76 on: February 06, 2014, 11:17:24 PM »
This is a very interesting discussion, and I've had thoughts that IP and Copyright law could be looked at, but here's the main question: would any new law or reorganization of the laws apply retroactively? If not, while changing IP law is nice and all, it won't help CoH. I just don't know what the general policy is for things like IP and retroactive legality.
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

Floride

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
  • Badgehunter Extraordinaire
Re: I know
« Reply #77 on: February 08, 2014, 11:47:06 PM »
This is a very interesting discussion, and I've had thoughts that IP and Copyright law could be looked at, but here's the main question: would any new law or reorganization of the laws apply retroactively? If not, while changing IP law is nice and all, it won't help CoH. I just don't know what the general policy is for things like IP and retroactive legality.
Pretty sure new laws aren't retroactive unless they specifically state they are and specify the past date they start from.
History shows again and again
How nature points out the folly of men

thunderforce

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I know
« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2014, 12:43:05 PM »
This is a very interesting discussion, and I've had thoughts that IP and Copyright law could be looked at, but here's the main question: would any new law or reorganization of the laws apply retroactively? If not, while changing IP law is nice and all, it won't help CoH. I just don't know what the general policy is for things like IP and retroactive legality.

There's no reason why not; the endless series of copyright term extensions have been retroactive, applying to already-published works - and in some cases (eg in the EU) putting works which have entered the public domain back into copyright.

I think a bigger problem (beyond the fact that governments are not going to listen to us when the Mouse has unlimited bribe money) is that no simple reform would help us; what we need is the server code, and it's never been released - it wouldn't enter the public domain under any straightforward reform, and furthermore we simply don't have a copy of it. The idea that a _service_ can't be killed off willy-nilly would represent a fairly drastic change.

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: I know
« Reply #79 on: February 10, 2014, 01:16:46 PM »
This is a very interesting discussion, and I've had thoughts that IP and Copyright law could be looked at, but here's the main question: would any new law or reorganization of the laws apply retroactively? If not, while changing IP law is nice and all, it won't help CoH. I just don't know what the general policy is for things like IP and retroactive legality.

it can have a retroactive angle actually, the way I'm wording things the past is fair game., technically if what I'm trying to accomplish gets passed into law then the moment the law is signed someone could go down to a patent office or such and put in a request for the rights to CoH and NCSoft would have to hand them over. because the IP has sat unsed for more than 2 years.

finally ahead of my classes by 1 week, I'll attempt to sort out some legal wording.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Ironwolf

  • Stubborn as a
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: I know
« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2014, 04:17:23 PM »
What you need to distinguish is the vast differences in Software versus Books and other creative material.

It would be fairly easy to show that advances in graphics and other programming changes (Operating Systems) make software age far faster than books or other media does.

I would suggest the following:
After a period of 2 years with no sales of the software it reverts back to the original creator (company or individual) and if that is not possible it Becomes public domain.
This does not affect the rights of the Owner to any profits. The game/software may be published but on a not-for-profit status. In other words you may accept donations but not require them to play/use the software.

In our case the game would revert to Cryptic and if they did nothing with it for 12 months I would allow the software to be petitioned for release to public domain within 6 calendar months.

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: I know
« Reply #81 on: February 10, 2014, 08:15:09 PM »
In the United States constitution, the congress is expressly forbidden to pass Ex Post Facto laws. The reason that copyright extension works is because the items in question never enter public domain. While I strongly doubt that the changes that are being suggested could ever become law, they would very likely not help City of Heroes.

For example, those cartoon DVD's that you see at drug stores are public domain because they copyright was allowed to lapse. No extension can cover them. In a particular case Disney failed to renew copyright on some newspaper strips and they fell into public domain. Believe me, if Disney could copyright them they would.

Keep in mind, that all a company would have to do to tie down the IP is make some use of it once a year. What good would the code be without the IP? Imagine NCSoft producing a limited edition set of postcards that feature key elements of the IP on a yearly basis just to keep it under control.

This also ignores the problem of large IP holders with plenty of money being able to retain control and small IP holders losing control because of lack of resources.

I can't imagine many, if any, of the groups pushing for copyright and IP reform backing this strategy.
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I know
« Reply #82 on: February 11, 2014, 01:26:41 AM »

Keep in mind, that all a company would have to do to tie down the IP is make some use of it once a year. What good would the code be without the IP? Imagine NCSoft producing a limited edition set of postcards that feature key elements of the IP on a yearly basis just to keep it under control.

This also ignores the problem of large IP holders with plenty of money being able to retain control and small IP holders losing control because of lack of resources.

I can't imagine many, if any, of the groups pushing for copyright and IP reform backing this strategy.

Yup.

It probably would cause greater harm to small IP holders than major corporations like Disney. It would simply be another day another dollar. re-release some token show of use every year or so, and still retain control. Small one, mess around and lose their IP if they take a break for a year and or do not have fund to market ad or create a product using the IP at that time.

thunderforce

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I know
« Reply #83 on: February 11, 2014, 09:44:21 AM »
In the United States constitution, the congress is expressly forbidden to pass Ex Post Facto laws. The reason that copyright extension works is because the items in question never enter public domain.

Err, except we are dealing with a Korean company, and furthermore the American prohibition on ex post facto laws has been ruled to refer purely to criminal matters, whereas (in spite of the efforts of Big Copyright) simple copyright infringement is a civil matter - leaving aside the question of whether a retroactive copyright extension is any more retroactive than a reduction.

I don't expect any simple reform (even if we could have such a thing) to help, but even if it were a question of American law, I don't see any reason it would be contrary to your Constitution.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: I know
« Reply #84 on: February 17, 2014, 06:49:59 PM »
What you need to distinguish is the vast differences in Software versus Books and other creative material.

It would be fairly easy to show that advances in graphics and other programming changes (Operating Systems) make software age far faster than books or other media does.

I would suggest the following:
After a period of 2 years with no sales of the software it reverts back to the original creator (company or individual) and if that is not possible it Becomes public domain.
This does not affect the rights of the Owner to any profits. The game/software may be published but on a not-for-profit status. In other words you may accept donations but not require them to play/use the software.

In our case the game would revert to Cryptic and if they did nothing with it for 12 months I would allow the software to be petitioned for release to public domain within 6 calendar months.
I don't see how that would be workable for  number of reasons.  First, not all software is individually and directly sold.  For example, the Cryptic engine itself isn't sold.  It would be tricky to determine when software was genuinely no longer in active publication, particularly for component software.

And imagine this hypothetical.  I write software designed to manage very large businesses, but I only manage to convince one business to buy it.  Two years later if I haven't found another customer does that mean everyone can now use it for free?

And here's a wild hypothetical.  Suppose all the Oracle users groups worldwide staged a two year boycott of their software.  In 730 days, they hit the jackpot and can use Oracle for free in perpetuity? 

If you only require the software to be "for sale" whether it actually generates sales or not, that creates a different loophole.  NCSoft could put CoH clients and servers up for sale for a billion dollars.  They would then be for sale, but with no possibility of anyone actually buying them.  Alternatively, NCSoft Korea could explicitly license CoH to NCI with strict orders not to load the servers anywhere.  Technically speaking, the software is being actively licensed to a third party and thus "being sold" in the sense the law would likely have to recognize.  How would the law distinguish between selling to another company and selling to individuals?

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: I know
« Reply #85 on: March 01, 2014, 05:37:45 PM »
I don't see how that would be workable for  number of reasons.  First, not all software is individually and directly sold.  For example, the Cryptic engine itself isn't sold.  It would be tricky to determine when software was genuinely no longer in active publication, particularly for component software.

And imagine this hypothetical.  I write software designed to manage very large businesses, but I only manage to convince one business to buy it.  Two years later if I haven't found another customer does that mean everyone can now use it for free?

And here's a wild hypothetical.  Suppose all the Oracle users groups worldwide staged a two year boycott of their software.  In 730 days, they hit the jackpot and can use Oracle for free in perpetuity? 

If you only require the software to be "for sale" whether it actually generates sales or not, that creates a different loophole.  NCSoft could put CoH clients and servers up for sale for a billion dollars.  They would then be for sale, but with no possibility of anyone actually buying them.  Alternatively, NCSoft Korea could explicitly license CoH to NCI with strict orders not to load the servers anywhere.  Technically speaking, the software is being actively licensed to a third party and thus "being sold" in the sense the law would likely have to recognize.  How would the law distinguish between selling to another company and selling to individuals?

I'm still working on the text, but this is the reason I stated Official availability as I did, so long as you intended to sell it (regardless if it sold) then it's still legit. yeah it does need some tweaking I tweaked it a little a few weeks ago but didn't do enough to show juggling a full time job and college now,but I still work at it when I find time. I'm thinking limiting Official availaility to some form of market cap, but thats a touchy subject.. sorta like "it must be available for sale for no more than 100% over the cost of production minus labor." or something like that to avoid gouging as was stated a long time ago as an issue. but that text cleary limits the capitalistic range any software can be sold for per unit, aka a market cap, not a very capitalistic thing, not to mention it will close even more loopholes for poor folk like us to strike it rich. takes a lot of consideration..
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

thunderforce

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I know
« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2014, 09:52:48 AM »
I'm thinking limiting Official availaility to some form of market cap, but thats a touchy subject.. sorta like "it must be available for sale for no more than 100% over the cost of production minus labor." or something like that to avoid gouging as was stated a long time ago as an issue.

This really doesn't work for a product of this nature where most of the cost of production is a capital cost amortised across every copy sold.

I really can't express how utterly futile this line of approach is, but the right thing to do there is leave it up to the courts to decide if a product is genuinely available.

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: I know
« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2014, 06:20:58 AM »
This really doesn't work for a product of this nature where most of the cost of production is a capital cost amortised across every copy sold.

I really can't express how utterly futile this line of approach is, but the right thing to do there is leave it up to the courts to decide if a product is genuinely available.

It will never get to a court. I can't imagine any of the groups working for copyright reform supporting this strategy. It doesn't address the problems that currently exist and raises a whole crop of new ones.

Back to the drawing board I think.
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

thunderforce

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I know
« Reply #88 on: March 05, 2014, 10:45:12 AM »
It will never get to a court.

Er, I think you misread what I wrote. I'm not suggesting that Joshex's idea will end up in court; I'm suggesting that would be part of the mechanism by which the abandonment status of works was decided, not trying to write a set of rules to cover every eventuality.

Quote
I can't imagine any of the groups working for copyright reform supporting this strategy.

I'm reasonably sure many of them do support abandoned works entering the public domain.

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: I know
« Reply #89 on: March 05, 2014, 07:58:20 PM »
Yes we absolutely support abandoned works  becoming public domain.

The rub is that the process that Joshex describes that he would like to pursue is not one is particularly useful for reforming copyright. It gives too much control to large copyright holders and very little protection for small IP holders. It makes it far to easy for a large corporation to virtually extend copyright indefinitely, far beyond the already absurd period that exists.

What we advocate is a more sensible period of copyright protection and an end to ongoing extensions, the current method used to cover older works under corporate ownership. We also support the reform of certain aspects of the DMCA because it directly contradicts The Fair Use decision handed down by the Supreme Court. It also makes it very difficult to actually use the products you buy for any purpose that rights holder deems inappropriate, whether it is or not and even makes study and discussion of encryption used illegal.

For example, even though Fair Use supports it, DMCA makes it illegal for you to take a copy you buy of a movie on DVD and re-code it to work on a mobile device.  Even discussion of how this might be done are illegal.
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

thunderforce

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I know
« Reply #90 on: March 06, 2014, 12:00:31 PM »
Yes we absolutely support abandoned works  becoming public domain.

I can't help but notice that "we" has extended to telling me, as a member of such groups, what I think. (I do also support that, but I don't live in a country blighted by the DMCA, for example).

Quote
The rub is that the process that Joshex describes that he would like to pursue is not one is particularly useful for reforming copyright.

Er, yes, I'm not sure who you're arguing with who thinks Joshex has a practical idea. What I'm saying is that I would expect edge cases for abandonment, in a sensible world, to be decided in court.

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: I know
« Reply #91 on: March 06, 2014, 11:40:59 PM »
I just meant we as in the people who advocate for copyright reform. I meant it mainly as a general statement because there are always differences between various groups that advocate for change depending on focus and stated goals.

I work for a non-profit that advocates for environmental issues and even though we all support restoring the environment, our goals can be somewhat different. I meant WE in that sense.

You are lucky that you don't have the DMCA to blight wherever. Wish I could say the same. The US is a good place to focus because they are pretty aggressive with enforcement and use diplomatic pressure to force other countries to enforce their positions.
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!