Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated

[AlienOne]

City of Heroes IS Abandonware:

http://abandonwarering.com/?Page=FAQ

It is actually a question now of archiving a game that due to its number of Guiness Book of World Record entries, numerous patents, first Superhero MMO and many other things that made it ground breaking - a VERY strong case could be made that this game MUST be preserved for future generations.

If anyone is a member of staff of a school or College - I would actually suggest approaching NCSoft with this exact case. This game could be used as a learning tool and also reference some other professors who actually used this game to TEACH. You have many personal stories my own included as to how the simple act of being able to defend yourself or be heroic in a game affects how you treat obstacles in life.

I honestly believe that freely releasing the game as abandonware has very strong potential.

This is the best idea I've heard about the future of this game since the game shut down...

Having gone through about half of my Master's degree in Game Design now at this point, I can see HUGE potential for a case in this area, if we could get any of the colleges (like the one I go to) to latch on to it and provide some kind of backing or merit to the case that it is something that should be preserved (much in the same way the "historical society" of any given town preserves certain older buildings in the town).

[The Fifth Horseman]

City of Heroes IS Abandonware:
(...)
I honestly believe that freely releasing the game as abandonware has very strong potential.

Not sold and not supported, certainly.
HOWEVER, be aware that Abandonware is NOT a legal term and has NO impact on applicability of copyright law. What you seem to be thinking about WRT to releasing the game is either open source or public domain. Open Source... yeah, good luck with that. But there's zero chance of public domain, since NCSoft doesn't strike me as a party to voluntarily relinquish all potential future monetary gain even from a property they themselves killed deader than a doornail.

[Ironwolf]

If you spent 10 years working on CoH as a designer you helped create a work of art with music, writing and graphics. You did this for pay and yet not one bit of it exists today.

I understand what a copyright protects but who protects the work?

This is a legitimate question.It is not in service and not in production for the future - this creates the exact question - how are you protecting the works if they are not being used?

NCSoft bought the rights to USE the IP. I would say it is a strong case that they then did the exact opposite and went out of their way to STOP the USE of the IP. Abandonware folks specifically say - if you restart selling the IP - we stop using it as Abandonware. A court would have a very hard time to prosecute you for keeping the desire of an IP going - when the original owner stopped caring if it was in use.

[Little David]

Unless they manage to pass the SOPA.

SOPA's dead in the water, as is PIPA. The thing we have to worry about now is the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement, which is even worse than either of them. Here's a brief rundown of how nasty it gets.

[Ohioknight]

NCSoft bought the rights to USE the IP. I would say it is a strong case that they then did the exact opposite and went out of their way to STOP the USE of the IP. Abandonware folks specifically say - if you restart selling the IP - we stop using it as Abandonware. A court would have a very hard time to prosecute you for keeping the desire of an IP going - when the original owner stopped caring if it was in use.

There is a defining moral case that the ONLY purpose to copyright and patent law is to make maximally available to the community creations and additions to human culture.  The reward to creators of valuable intellectual property is the METHOD of ensuring that creations are not kept private or secret and encouraging additional increases in human culture and ability.

This is why you can pass on ownership of your property (say your land or your automobile) to your future inheritors for a thousand years, but your "intellectual property" has a finite lifetime (Disney hasn't successfully done away with that distinction yet).  It is not PROPERTY it is TREATED AS PROPERTY for a specific purpose -- that purpose being to make it maximally available. 

Those who use copyright or patent to PROHIBIT access to or use of works of intellectual property are inherently abusing the principle under which they have any ownership rights to that "property" at all. 

This form of abuse may be unavoidable as a practical matter in terms of the implementation of the rules of property law to intellectual property (how do you put a defined cost on "Casablanca" if you cannot control access) but it should never be forgotten that when a company uses copyright to EXCLUDE access of the community to IP they are morally abrogating the basis of their ownership -- they are exploiting the limits of the practical implementation of the law to accomplish the exact opposite of the law's purpose.

NCSoft is not making access to COX available for an $80,000 annual subscription (one could argue that that would also be a violation of right that should be prohibited by law, but for different reasons) NCSoft is EXCLUDING access to the IP (of all it's shut down games that it won't release). 

This use of their "ownership" is simply wrong and the laws should not allow it.

[Ironwolf]

That is my exact arguement.

Copyrights are there for protection of someone using the property to make money or some other definite reward. I would think that City of Heroes would absolutely be a perfect subject for Abandonware. In fact head over to Good Old Games and see the work done to restore games in similar circumstances.

They are updated to modern computers and resold. I have a number myself.

[Pinnacle Blue]

That is my exact arguement.

Copyrights are there for protection of someone using the property to make money or some other definite reward. I would think that City of Heroes would absolutely be a perfect subject for Abandonware. In fact head over to Good Old Games and see the work done to restore games in similar circumstances.

They are updated to modern computers and resold. I have a number myself.

And get this: they are sold with no DRM.  So if your hard drive dies, or you simply upgrade to a better computer, or just want to play something while visiting your crazy uncle who lives in the North Pole, you can download them as many times as you want.

Said it before, saying it again: GOG.com got a lot of money from me that would've otherwise gone to NCSoft, who will see another dime from me some time after hell freezes over.

[JaguarX]

It is actually a question now of archiving a game that due to its number of Guiness Book of World Record entries, numerous patents, first Superhero MMO and many other things that made it ground breaking - a VERY strong case could be made that this game MUST be preserved for future generations.

If anyone is a member of staff of a school or College - I would actually suggest approaching NCSoft with this exact case. This game could be used as a learning tool and also reference some other professors who actually used this game to TEACH. You have many personal stories my own included as to how the simple act of being able to defend yourself or be heroic in a game affects how you treat obstacles in life.

I honestly believe that freely releasing the game as abandonware has very strong potential.

Say, that is a very good idea, but there is a very good difference between using it to teach and a learning tool. And merely using it because the players wasn't ready to quit playing yet.

If one could get a college student, a college the student belongs to to go along, it might just work. But of course, cant go in there with that approach as a flimsy disguise for the true purpose of simply trying to fulfill the sense of entitlement to a game players feel they should have or the case would crumble. There are many ups and downs with using it as teaching and learning tool and usually it don't result in the desired everyone get in and enjoy.

I do wonder about the individual rights of the owners but I assume they went through ha process that is similar to the volunteer vow of CoT where they made public agreement to relinquish all claims to the work and very much so in the employee case since they were paid for their work and compensated.  Like in most companies, and ex employees have been successfully sued, when they try to run off with a project they made although made due to payment they received as an employee using company assets and tools to create. I.E. a person can create a rocket but if they do it as a soldier who job is to create rockets they cant go back and try and claim it for themselves when their employment is terminated.  That rocket and it's design becomes government property. Anymore than I suppose a volunteer for the project can get angry and ban the project from using their work or system they created if they agreed to give up their claim to said property in return for working or in most cases in companies, as a term of their employment. 

[Ohioknight]

Like in most companies, and ex employees have been successfully sued, when they try to run off with a project they made although made due to payment they received as an employee using company assets and tools to create. I.E. a person can create a rocket but if they do it as a soldier who job is to create rockets they cant go back and try and claim it for themselves when their employment is terminated.  That rocket and it's design becomes government property.

But with the exception of the government, which is protected due to it's sovereign state, the owner of the rocket cannot PREVENT someone else from using that rocket design just because they own it and don't want someone else to use it.  The rocket design is given to them as their "property" for a limited period of time (a patent), so that they can charge for it's use in order to encourage other companies to design more rockets.  But that also REQUIRES them to completely reveal the rocket design publicly and not to use prohibitive restrictions on the use of the rocket design.  Their "ownership" is dependent upon the public good that is produced by others having use of the design openly.

[The Fifth Horseman]

I understand what a copyright protects but who protects the work?
This is a legitimate question.It is not in service and not in production for the future - this creates the exact question - how are you protecting the works if they are not being used?
NCSoft bought the rights to USE the IP. I would say it is a strong case that they then did the exact opposite and went out of their way to STOP the USE of the IP.

1. Theoretically its' owner, practically they are under no obligation to do so. MANY products were lost to bit rot over the years.
2. Same as normally, by siccing your legal department on anyone who uses them without permission. If any part of the work contains trademarks you own, this is something you can't NOT do - failure to react to infringements can result in losing rights to the trademark.
3. Not quite. They have the rights to control the use of it. That includes the right to choose to it on it until cows come home.

Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly support the idea - but you're crossing a certain barrier and you should be aware of it. Abandonware is a nicely sounding term an a reasonable concept overall, but in the eyes of law it's still no different than regular software piracy. The current copyright laws in general are assuming protection to last WAY beyond the author's lifespan, obsolescence of any technologies needed to display or use the work may and longevity of the media it is stored on.

A court would have a very hard time to prosecute you for keeping the desire of an IP going - when the original owner stopped caring if it was in use.

If it got to the court, then they cared enough to sue you over the work's use after you refused to budge through a few cease & desist notices. The courts operate primarily by the letter of law, which is very clear on the subject of software piracy, trademark infringement and copyright infringement.

Yes, the way copyright and trademark laws work sucks - mainly because laws designed to appeal to other media are bloody insane . Find a way to change them or live with it.

[HEATSTROKE]

TonyV seems to have confidence that something could be worked out should something ever come to light. So I will hang my hope on that..

[Kyriani]

TonyV seems to have confidence that something could be worked out should something ever come to light. So I will hang my hope on that..

That's what I did. Until TonyV says the project is dead I will keep the light of hope burning!

[JaguarX]

But with the exception of the government, which is protected due to it's sovereign state, the owner of the rocket cannot PREVENT someone else from using that rocket design just because they own it and don't want someone else to use it.  The rocket design is given to them as their "property" for a limited period of time (a patent), so that they can charge for it's use in order to encourage other companies to design more rockets.  But that also REQUIRES them to completely reveal the rocket design publicly and not to use prohibitive restrictions on the use of the rocket design.  Their "ownership" is dependent upon the public good that is produced by others having use of the design openly.

GUess you missed the part where I said the person don't own the rocket anymore, the government do, and thus by their sov. right, they can prevent others from using it. But if an outside person create a rocket, which can be a world changer and thus things are bit different and harder to hoard but really in the grand schematics of things, where do a super hero mmo video game fit into the concept of the "public good"? Really and seriously. I doubt having a video game operating or not operating is considered detrimental to the public good anymore than someone keeping a recipe to a liquor. Sure some people are addicted to liquor and feel they cant live without it, and the person should release the recipe because they want and neeed that particular liquor and the other ones don't feed their need and desire. In court, that would hardly be viewed as ,"man, that poor guy, they should have no right withholding that guy from his addiction." Games are generally viewed as something of recreational side thing, not something that is needed for the common public good of mankind.

Unlike like a rocket or other weapons, medicines and vaccines, can be considered things for the common good of mankind to be used and not locked away.


Now if COX players was running the justice system, then games, or rather COX would have been considered detrimental to mankind if it shut down and NCSOFT is an illegal operating company and before they operate they must promise to bend to the will of it's players for ever and give up all claims to any game they want to shut down. How did laws get to where they were? Being inacted with not much fuss and no one caring what the laws are or what companies do with games or the property. That is until it affects them directly but by then the process is dug in deeper than an Alabama tick. 

[Drauger9]

TonyV seems to have confidence that something could be worked out should something ever come to light. So I will hang my hope on that..

Same here, I'm going to hold on to hope until I hear other wise. I mean if anything else we got Heroes and Villians, City of Titans and there's another one right? Not sure what the third one is called though.

Those project will never be City of Heroes but I believe they'll come really close to the same look and feel of City of Heroes.

Or who knows maybe the CEO of NCSoft will fall and hit his head. Then think to him self "Let's make an MMO about super heroes. Oh wait we already have on, flip the switches back on NOWZZZ!"..... it could happen. *hides bat*

[JaguarX]

I mean if anything else we got Heroes and Villians, City of Titans and there's another one right? Not sure what the third one is called though.

Those project will never be City of Heroes but I believe they'll come really close to the same look and feel of City of Heroes.

Or who knows maybe the CEO of NCSoft will fall and hit his head. Then think to him self "Let's make an MMO about super heroes. Oh wait we already have on, flip the switches back on NOWZZZ!"..... it could happen. *hides bat*

hey it can happen. It has happened. The Camaro was dead in the water with no plans initially to bring it back. GM execs called it a niche market not worth development and the Corvette should fill the same slot. A few years later, they realized they basically handed the market on the platter to Mustang, and recanted their stance and brought out the new Camaro in a quick manner with the fanfare to go with it to make up for lost ground.


Coca-Cola changed formula one time and thought people would like the new one. It was supposed to the biggest new product they ever made that would make them money beyond belief. They were wrong. So they brought back the old formula and called it Coca-Cola Classic. No imagine if they sold off the classic formula simply because they had no plans for it at the time. They would have been kicking themselves far worse than they ever could from simple discontinuing a product. Because as long as they have it, they can bring it back maybe in a year or maybe ten. Many products don't make it back even within ten years. 

[houtex]

re: Camaro...  Not so much.  Oh sure, that was the story, of course, but what GM was doing was closing a plant.  Killing Camaro allowed them to do that.  The assembly building was demolished.  GM wanted that place closed for years and the Camarogate allowed them to do that.

Wait a few years... hey, make a Camaro.  Especially after Chrysler came up with Challenger.  Hey all's forgiven... except in Ste. Therese and Quebec, I'm betting, as Camaro's not built there anymore, it's in Ontario.

Basically, GM wasn't selling enough Camaro/Firebird by the time 2002 rolled around, and it gave them the perfect excuse to kill the plant.  There were some legalities that meant they had to wait until 2007 or longer to even think about making a new one... and we all know what happened around that time.  So in 2010, after Mustang had started selling HOT the segment again since 2005 and on they had a real decent excuse to bring it back... somewhere else.

[JaguarX]

re: Camaro...  Not so much.  Oh sure, that was the story, of course, but what GM was doing was closing a plant.  Killing Camaro allowed them to do that.  The assembly building was demolished.  GM wanted that place closed for years and the Camarogate allowed them to do that.

Wait a few years... hey, make a Camaro.  Especially after Chrysler came up with Challenger.  Hey all's forgiven... except in Ste. Therese and Quebec, I'm betting, as Camaro's not built there anymore, it's in Ontario.

Basically, GM wasn't selling enough Camaro/Firebird by the time 2002 rolled around, and it gave them the perfect excuse to kill the plant.  There were some legalities that meant they had to wait until 2007 or longer to even think about making a new one... and we all know what happened around that time.  So in 2010, after Mustang had started selling HOT the segment again since 2005 and on they had a real decent excuse to bring it back... somewhere else.

Sounds very very familiar don't it?

[Pinnacle Blue]

I have a dumb question.

Suppose you wanted to put on The Shining as a play for your local community theatre.  You probably could, but you might want to ask Stephen King if you could.  King would likely say yes and not ask for any kind of fee.

What if SCORE simply... asked NCSoft if they could open a private server or two?

[Pinnacle Blue]

Say, that is a very good idea, but there is a very good difference between using it to teach and a learning tool. And merely using it because the players wasn't ready to quit playing yet.

That right there is why you will be the very last person to find out if the project is successful.  Try harder not to make us hate you sight unseen.

[JaguarX]

That right there is why you will be the very last person to find out if the project is successful.  Try harder not to make us hate you sight unseen.

So you was ready to quit playing?

If it wasn't for people like you, COX would have had a bigger community and not be ran away with your type of attitude. In a way it's your fault that we are in this situation to begin with. Last round you won, you got what you wanted. Not enough people playing COX to make it a shutdown risk. Still wasn't satisfied and trying to give a bad name to the community I see. What is in it for you? I bet when the server of the private sort do go alive, I bet you'll be the first one in line snitching to NCSOFT. I bet when the other games go live, you probably will still be trying your hardest to make sure people stay away.

You sir are the true liability here.  Because you sound like the type of person that want them to fail. You want them to make it without thinking and get into legal trouble. I wouldn't be surprised if that is what you dream about each and every night. You sit on here and pretend to care when in reality you hate COHtitan, you hate the movement, you hate that if they go about it smartly they might have success, you hate it all. So while you're busy talking about what other people should try to do, how about you try harder to not make it seem like your wanting them to fail. Then it wouldn't be so easy to see through your fakeness. 

And maybe you could have come up with something more than an idea that wasn't the exact same idea I suggested earlier already. Try harder man, try harder. It's really a very lazy attempt at trying to act like you want them succeed. If anyone should not know any details about anything going on, it is you. I bet you probably already told NCSOFT about what is planned already.  That is why I'm suggesting caution so they wont end up caught blinded from actions of people like you that wish this entire thing to crumble and doing everything in their power to sabotage it.

But as I suggested to you a while ago, if you have beef with me, then man up, and talk to me in private message. Last time you didn't. And for once stop being a coward and going topic to topic starting trouble with me. Send private message, state your problem and we'll deal with it. What are you afraid of? Those "us" people wont be able to back you up or something? 


But back on topic, yes I do think they should be cautious and not rush into it blind. If you hate me for that, then well that is a problem you have to deal with. I already gave you a way to deal with it. If you choose not to, there is nothing more I can do for you. Why not take your own advise and try harder to deal with your problems?