Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated

[HEATSTROKE]

I didnt mean to start such a brouhaha

[Ohioknight]

Indeed.

Same for the artwork, character names, bios, map names to the maps aka Atlas City in NCSOFT COX Atlas City form, and etc.

That is the tricky part. Some stuff that is behind the client, probably will have to be changed or emulated anyways and thus is not by definition what NCSOFT used.

But people forget that the characters and their stuff is also copyrighted. Hence why some games like Cryptic and whoever had to purchase the right to Champions IP in order to make the game instead of making the game and flicking off the laws. Even though the online game probably would in no way shape or fashion interefere wit hthe operation of the PnP version and stuff.


But since they said, many times, the SCORE project will not break any laws I guess that means there wont be Positron per se, but maybe "Atom" or something.

Ah, but Positron's, Statesman's, etc artwork are IN the client.  Software that causes the client to display the client content that is labeled "Positron" or "Galaxy City" is not actually DISPLAYING those images -- it's the CLIENT that is displaying those images. Yes, if the Server is displaying a map name, then it had better not be displaying "Atlas Park" that is literally coded in the server--  it had better be displaying >Client Map Name Atlas Park< which the client happens to have as "Atlas Park" (and a modified client could have labeled as "City Center" or "Big Farting Statue Park" depending on the taste of the client's modifier)

[Aggelakis]

Ah, but Positron's, Statesman's, etc artwork are IN the client.  Software that causes the client to display the client content that is labeled "Positron" or "Galaxy City" is not actually DISPLAYING those images -- it's the CLIENT that is displaying those images. Yes, if the Server is displaying a map name, then it had better not be displaying "Atlas Park" that is literally coded in the server--  it had better be displaying >Client Map Name Atlas Park< which the client happens to have as "Atlas Park" (and a modified client could have labeled as "City Center" or "Big Farting Statue Park" depending on the taste of the client's modifier)

Atlas Park is "maps/City_Zones/City_01_01/City_01_01.txt" in the client. Other data and textures and such, which can be changed, bring in the Atlas Park details.

[JaguarX]

Ah, but Positron's, Statesman's, etc artwork are IN the client.  Software that causes the client to display the client content that is labeled "Positron" or "Galaxy City" is not actually DISPLAYING those images -- it's the CLIENT that is displaying those images. Yes, if the Server is displaying a map name, then it had better not be displaying "Atlas Park" that is literally coded in the server--  it had better be displaying >Client Map Name Atlas Park< which the client happens to have as "Atlas Park" (and a modified client could have labeled as "City Center" or "Big Farting Statue Park" depending on the taste of the client's modifier)

well there you have it then.

Just change some stuff around and Atlas park is not Atlas park, even though "it is" but it isn't. It's say City Center and it have a red sky with different trees and stuff and  "Liberty is not  Liberty but is someone else with different look, although everyone know it is in fact "Liberty" but sincei t isn't Liberty it cannot be proven that it is in fact Liberty in the court of law.

Sounds like a lot of stuff can be changed including contact and such images and or names.

[Ohioknight]

well there you have it then.

Just change some stuff around and Atlas park is not Atlas park, even though "it is" but it isn't. It's say City Center and it have a red sky with different trees and stuff and  "Liberty is not  Liberty but is someone else with different look, although everyone know it is in fact "Liberty" but sincei t isn't Liberty it cannot be proven that it is in fact Liberty in the court of law.

Sounds like a lot of stuff can be changed including contact and such images and or names.

No need for red skies or different looks -- you just have to be able to prove that City Center's sky and trees come from the client and all your server did was cue up the existing client images -- Liberty doesn't SAY she's liberty (unless that's built into the client) -- instead she's Freedom who looks exactly as she is created in the client (just as ICON has her built in the map) -- same reason ICON isn't violating anything ... it only cues up functions, images, maps built into the client software.

Then just use AE resources to build replacements for  the dialog, NPC's, missions, etc.

[Tahquitz]

Retracted.

[Illusionss]

My guess is, Icon isn't a big enough "threat" to NCSoft to warrant a takedown; it's a violation, but it doesn't actually bring the game back like a server emulator. Or, it may be due to a lack of publicity.

But I still wanna know: how would NCSoft carry out a takedown? A zillion people have Icon on their machines. How will they get us to remove it? Send stormtroopers to kick down our doors? I wanna see that one.....

My CoX files on my personal machine were paid for with real-world cash, on my machine that was also paid for with my own real-world cash, and all these things are my legal property. If NCSoft does not like that then I feel for them! BUT WHAT IS MINE, IS MINE. AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE SO!

I mean, seriously. I want to know what they are gonna do. Is Korea going to invade the US and seize our computers? Balderdash! CoX is mine, and Icon is also.... mine in the sense that it is on MY computer. I suggest NC start dealing with the fact that they do not run the world!

[JaguarX]

But I still wanna know: how would NCSoft carry out a takedown? A zillion people have Icon on their machines. How will they get us to remove it? Send stormtroopers to kick down our doors? I wanna see that one.....

My CoX files on my personal machine were paid for with real-world cash, on my machine that was also paid for with my own real-world cash, and all these things are my legal property. If NCSoft does not like that then I feel for them! BUT WHAT IS MINE, IS MINE. AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE SO!

I mean, seriously. I want to know what they are gonna do. Is Korea going to invade the US and seize our computers? Balderdash! CoX is mine, and Icon is also.... mine in the sense that it is on MY computer. I suggest NC start dealing with the fact that they do not run the world!

well I suppose it's like anything that get a C&D. They probably just shut down the distributor. Just like when Napster got shut down, the files downloaded from there that was already on people's computers, basically still worked  and some of those files to this day are being used to make those youtube videos and stuff.
There was no mass invasion of each computer. Just Napster, the distributor. Unless of course the access to said program is depended on the distributor side to be up and running. But if it's a stand alone of the person computer then those that get it in before they shut it down like music downloading sights, or hell even youtube videoes before they remove the video, still can have it but those that come after is SOL unless they get it from someone that already have it.

But while NCSOFT have to deal with the fact that they don't run the world people also have to deal with the fact that they are not entitled to distribute other people's property without permission even if they feel they are doing it for the greater good. Like just because someone rents a house for years, when it come time for the owner to sell or decide they they don't want to do the renting thing anymore and doesn't renew contract, doesn't mean the renter all of a sudden is entitled to ownership of that house even if they did repaint it.

[blacksly]

There never was, nor will there ever be, any reasonable threat that NCSoft would or could go after anyone using copies of their client or any portion of it (Icon) even after they shuttered the servers.

Nor are they ever likely to have a real recourse in case a server emulator is ever put out for download.

The real threat is that if there is solid evidence to link a server emulator to a specific source, AND they can find something in the emulator that infringes upon their copyright and/or IP, they could take the source to court. Reverse engineering is legal (in most countries) but you are supposed to engineer a software engine that behaves identically to the original, without directly copying any part of the code. If someone takes shortcuts, they may be in danger with regards to copying. If someone reverse-engineers the server software cleanly, but keeps mention of any CoH IP in the software, such as location or hero or mission names, they would be liable for IP infringement.

Both of those issues can be avoided with care. If they are avoided, you would still want to keep the trail obscured, given that NCSoft may always decide to just throw some money away in nuisance lawsuits as punishment if they could determine the source, but if they have nothing more that they are likely to achieve than nuisance lawsuits, they are unlikely to seriously pursue any reaction. Basically, don't give them legal ammo to get serious results, and they may not pursue the effort to just be a nuisance to the emulator developers or to anyone running a server.

[JaguarX]

There never was, nor will there ever be, any reasonable threat that NCSoft would or could go after anyone using copies of their client or any portion of it (Icon) even after they shuttered the servers.

Nor are they ever likely to have a real recourse in case a server emulator is ever put out for download.

The real threat is that if there is solid evidence to link a server emulator to a specific source, AND they can find something in the emulator that infringes upon their copyright and/or IP, they could take the source to court. Reverse engineering is legal (in most countries) but you are supposed to engineer a software engine that behaves identically to the original, without directly copying any part of the code. If someone takes shortcuts, they may be in danger with regards to copying. If someone reverse-engineers the server software cleanly, but keeps mention of any CoH IP in the software, such as location or hero or mission names, they would be liable for IP infringement.

Both of those issues can be avoided with care. If they are avoided, you would still want to keep the trail obscured, given that NCSoft may always decide to just throw some money away in nuisance lawsuits as punishment if they could determine the source, but if they have nothing more that they are likely to achieve than nuisance lawsuits, they are unlikely to seriously pursue any reaction. Basically, don't give them legal ammo to get serious results, and they may not pursue the effort to just be a nuisance to the emulator developers or to anyone running a server.

yup. Unless they manage to pass the SOPA.

[Codewalker]

All I gotta say is.. why hasn't NC Soft gone after Titan Icon?

Icon is a 100% original work that does not infringe NCSoft's copyright in any way. The source code is available to validate this claim. It was developed after the COH servers were shut down, therefore any agreements governing access to those servers (without which the client does not function) can not apply.

Its function is to interface with and enhance software that people have legally purchased. This is in full accordance with U.S. Copyright Law. The COH client has no content protection mechanisms that would apply, and even if it did, the DMCA has provisions allowing such protections to be bypassed if they are rendered defunct due to being discontinued by the original provider.

If NCSoft were dumb enough to to send the Titan Network or anyone else a C&D notice for it, it would be grounds for a harassment lawsuit, and possibly run afoul of anti-SLAPP laws. Given the support that the various plan Z projects have received, I can only imagine what kind of legal fund we would have if it was announced we had legitimate grounds to sue them on. Not to mention the precedent it could set.

Plus, the last Beta client is available in its entirety, on a public website.

Dunno on that one. Probably their legal department isn't even aware of it, or doesn't see it as a big enough problem to spend resources going after. There's also the matter of them having allowed anyone to freely download it in the first place, which muddies the waters. Maybe they know we're itching for a fight and don't want to risk an unfavorable result.

[JaguarX]

Dunno on that one. Probably their legal department isn't even aware of it, or doesn't see it as a big enough problem to spend resources going after. There's also the matter of them having allowed anyone to freely download it in the first place, which muddies the waters. Maybe they know we're itching for a fight and don't want to risk an unfavorable result.

Yeah if it's on some small website, ok small as in not on one of the major big websites Facebook, you tube, google, yahoo, twitter, Disney, CNN, and etc, aka a website with a few thousand is not considered in that major website category, they probably just simply don't realize it exist.


well itching for a fight and actually fighting are two different things. Sometimes itching for a fight is not a good thing because then it breeds cockiness, and thus mistakes are made and things are overlooked, which leads to losing when in fact it should have been an easy win with proper preparation instead of walking into it "I'm right so there is no way NCSOFT can win. The entire court system is on my side" nonsense. That is how many times people lose cases that make others go How the flick did they lose that one? And of course the lawyers laughing all the way to the bank on both sides.

People seem to forget there is also protection for the IP holder and small print that is in their favor too. It's all about how one goes about doing it. Go into it like "I bought the game so the entire IP is mine to use as I want and distribute" yeah that is trouble waiting to happen. Or thinking immunity simply because others have not been taken down. That leads to sloppiness and carelessness. Stay sharp as if they are watching. Prep for the worse, so even if they send C&D, ya know what to do. If they do sue, already be ready, prepped, good to go and not pissing off a judge with some cocky sense of entitlement to other's property attitude. Humbleness, but firm, and lastly know the law on both ends because what this is going on, may not be viewed in favorable terms when someone does it to one of the three projects once they get going with emulators and private servers. And it would be odd to go from, yeah I bought it and entitles to the IP to "Hey they cant do that to the Project Z project. That is not their work to makea private server and emulator and distribute."

[Illusionss]

I still want to know how that's going to work if I, or anyone, got a C&D from Korea. [Which isn't happening, but for the sake of argument.]

"We hereby demand that you remove our property from your computer, and hey while you are doing that take off that ICON thing too, we didn't make that or have a thing to do with it but we're still demanding anyways! OBEY AT ONCE or face the full might of South Korean law!"

Whut. We are not living in Korea. They have no jurisdiction here. Is the Justice Dept. going to extradite us to Korea....? Of course not and that is just how ridiculous this whole thing sounds. Korea does not run the world. They have no clout here.

[Drauger9]

[quoteI still want to know how that's going to work if I, or anyone, got a C&D from Korea. [Which isn't happening, but for the sake of argument.]

"We hereby demand that you remove our property from your computer, and hey while you are doing that take off that ICON thing too, we didn't make that or have a thing to do with it but we're still demanding anyways! OBEY AT ONCE or face the full might of South Korean law!"

Whut. We are not living in Korea. They have no jurisdiction here. Is the Justice Dept. going to extradite us to Korea....? Of course not and that is just how ridiculous this whole thing sounds. Korea does not run the world. They have no clout here. ][/quote]

I was always under the assumption that there was a NCSoft  US as well as a Korean NCSoft?

If so, then yeah, if someone in the US broke a copyright law. I'd find it hard to believe they'd suppena (sp) you to a Korean court. I'd also assume it'd be handled similarly like a case of Idenity Theft. Where the plantif would have to go to the actual state (in the case of it happening in the US) where the theft actually accured. Like say I stole your Idenity. You'd have to come to the state in which I live (TN). The persue any legal action. Least that was the case with my cousin when her identity was stolen.

Take Care.

[JaguarX]

well the thing is that NCSOFT do have COX IP and trademark registered in the US, and thus violation of those copyrights and trademarks do fall under the US law.

They may have a set for the Korean area too, but that wouldn't apply here, but in short, they do have that stuff registered in the US with the US copyright office.

So more than likely if crap hit the fan and they do make a move, it would be played out in US court uder US copyright laws.

And NCSOFT do have offices in the US.



But also don't forget about the WIPO Copyright Treaty (which have 186 nations as members) and the Berne Convention which the US, and most of the world ratified and signed and agreed to except a few African nations in the south east portion and many countries in the Middle East.  Originally the US refused to sign and become a party to the Berne convention in 1988 and the DMCA also covers violations to those treaties. Thus violating the copyright of a company in Korea still could be upheld and the person could be held liable under US law.

Now how it works in say Germany, may be a bit different but since the WIPO Copyright Treaty is basically an international law, it probably applies there too and vice versa if someone in the US took copyrighted materials of German origin and the German company got wind of it and put in a complaint.

From the copyright website addresses in the FAQW section

"The United States has copyright relations with most countries throughout the world, and as a result of these agreements, we honor each other's citizens' copyrights"


 And Check out http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ38a.pdf and as you can see, that list covers a lot of countries, including South Korea.


And Aftermath records once got sued for using a song without permission by a Indian (India citizen) composer for usuing a sample in the Truth Hurts song Addictive. The case took place in a US district court in LA. Then Saregama India Ltd a company based out of India sued in a Houston court over music that was used without their permission. And in both of those cases the Indian person and company didn't have any copyright  filings in the US for their work. NCSOFT do. So yeah just because the company is not in the US, doesn't mean the stuff is free game and cant be pursued in US courts.



But there is a chance NCSOFT may not bother, but they may bother, but still they may not. I think it's best to assume they will and be cautious just in case instead of going free range assuming we are untouchable. Because usually those that think they are untouchable unsinkable infallible, usually end up touched, sunk, fallen. And it's not because they were stupid or wrong but simply because in their haste they overlook something important and made a mistake that they could have seen and avoided if they slowed down and did a proper risk assessment. AKA they usually cause their own downfall.

[Pinnacle Blue]

well the thing is that NCSOFT do have COX IP and trademark registered in the US, and thus violation of those copyrights and trademarks do fall under the US law.

They may have a set for the Korean area too, but that wouldn't apply here, but in short, they do have that stuff registered in the US with the US copyright office.

So more than likely if crap hit the fan and they do make a move, it would be played out in US court uder US copyright laws.

And NCSOFT do have offices in the US.



But also don't forget about the WIPO Copyright Treaty (which have 186 nations as members) and the Berne Convention which the US, and most of the world ratified and signed and agreed to except a few African nations in the south east portion and many countries in the Middle East.  Originally the US refused to sign and become a party to the Berne convention in 1988 and the DMCA also covers violations to those treaties. Thus violating the copyright of a company in Korea still could be upheld and the person could be held liable under US law.

Now how it works in say Germany, may be a bit different but since the WIPO Copyright Treaty is basically an international law, it probably applies there too and vice versa if someone in the US took copyrighted materials of German origin and the German company got wind of it and put in a complaint.

From the copyright website addresses in the FAQW section

"The United States has copyright relations with most countries throughout the world, and as a result of these agreements, we honor each other's citizens' copyrights"


 And Check out http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ38a.pdf and as you can see, that list covers a lot of countries, including South Korea.

We won't know what happens until it plays out.  It all depends on whether or not a mere C&D letter will be sufficient to make any private server owners knuckle under or say, "No, let's take this to court."  C&D letters are often used as a scare tactic; I doubt NCSoft really wants this to go to trial and I suspect the discovery process would uncover quite a number of things they don't want made public.

In any case, the whole point of copyright law is to make sure that only the copyright holder can earn money for their creations.  If someone runs server code but doesn't charge money for it, NCSoft is going to have a hell of a time proving financial harm to themselves.  They shut the game down, have no plans to reopen it, have rebuffed all attempts to buy it, and, most importantly, have received no revenue from it for over a year.  That harm is entirely self-inflicted.  If I'm not mistaken, the DMCA has provisions in it that allow for abandonware-- which is what CoH is.

Now, if the game were extant, they'd have a leg to stand on, no question.  But it's not.  So we'll just have to see what happens.

[saipaman]

I doubt NCSoft wants to add more fuel to the publicity machine.

[Drauger9]

I doubt they would to, unless someone was profiting from running a private server. Even then, I think they'd over look it unless it was making a decent to huge profit.

City of Heroes is dead to them and unless someone came around rubbing a 1 up in their face. They'll over look a lot of thing in regards to anything City of Heroes.

I think the only reason they wont sale the IP is out of a since of pride. Their scared someone might profit off of it and make them look foolish.

[JaguarX]

We won't know what happens until it plays out.  It all depends on whether or not a mere C&D letter will be sufficient to make any private server owners knuckle under or say, "No, let's take this to court."  C&D letters are often used as a scare tactic; I doubt NCSoft really wants this to go to trial and I suspect the discovery process would uncover quite a number of things they don't want made public.

In any case, the whole point of copyright law is to make sure that only the copyright holder can earn money for their creations.  If someone runs server code but doesn't charge money for it, NCSoft is going to have a hell of a time proving financial harm to themselves.  They shut the game down, have no plans to reopen it, have rebuffed all attempts to buy it, and, most importantly, have received no revenue from it for over a year.  That harm is entirely self-inflicted.  If I'm not mistaken, the DMCA has provisions in it that allow for abandonware-- which is what CoH is.

Now, if the game were extant, they'd have a leg to stand on, no question.  But it's not.  So we'll just have to see what happens.

Well in reality they never said whether or not they have future if any plans for it just yet. It haven't been that long since the shut down in the business world.

abandonware usually involve old copyright materials that have been long "extinct" and or the copyright holder have not enforced it's copyright rights in a long period of time. Whether or not NCSOFT will enforce it's copyright rights have yet to be tested yet and thus COX is not really abandonware on that front.  And officially currently, US copyright law does not recognize the term or concept of "abandonware".

And the DMCA only allows it for archived and preserved if the media that is needed is obsolete. Such as in DOS game cases. But in that case, the copyright holder may still hold the rights to some of those games and depending on which one, it may still not be considered abandonware and thus someone just simply cant pick it up and do as they please with it just yet.
  COX not yet. It would be a hard case to prove exemption for a game that is not really yet obsolete yet. While commonly the copyright person go for financial damages, but many times it's not the case. One can be found to be copyright infringing and not make a single dime. Of course that also mean the copyright holder wont be rewarded for financial damages.

Of course longer it stays defunct easier it will be. But it's too early to call it abandonware or assume there isn't a plan simply because they didn't immediately let us know of said plan.


But it is a very great chance though as Drauger said, they wont even bother as long as people don't rub t in their faces as a one 1, which then either force them to basically either declare their rights to it or make it harder in the future to dispel the case of abandonware, assuming they have no single plan for it in the first place as they never said they didn't have plans for the IP yet. Even as the TeamHAil mary said, it takes years for the deals to go through hand for all we know they may be in negotiations right now as we speak with Disney or Google. And if something pops up and the deal falls through, they could easily claim the private server emulator or what ever titled is assigned to it, copyright infringement was partial cause of the multimillion dollar deal going through and that doesn't even require the private server owner runner operator to have made a single cent. 

And I doubt their actions will hinge on our view of them anymore or the "publicity machine". Most here seem to already hate them so why would they be worried at this point on pissing people off that is already pissed and will be pissed at them regardless of what they do and or expect them to not protect their property from the people that hate them and expressed this hate in the first place. This is like a car thief saying that the owner that they hate wont or shouldn't reclaim their car from him because then he will like them less if they report the car stolen.

[Ironwolf]

City of Heroes IS Abandonware:

http://abandonwarering.com/?Page=FAQ

It is actually a question now of archiving a game that due to its number of Guiness Book of World Record entries, numerous patents, first Superhero MMO and many other things that made it ground breaking - a VERY strong case could be made that this game MUST be preserved for future generations.

If anyone is a member of staff of a school or College - I would actually suggest approaching NCSoft with this exact case. This game could be used as a learning tool and also reference some other professors who actually used this game to TEACH. You have many personal stories my own included as to how the simple act of being able to defend yourself or be heroic in a game affects how you treat obstacles in life.

I honestly believe that freely releasing the game as abandonware has very strong potential.