Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated

[Kyriani]

Yes and no. There is still the person that sent it into the wild. And courts tend to frown upon that because then unlike if it was a single server, they just can "quit" and that be the end of it.
But then again if the initiator is incognito somehow, aka untraceable or at least very hard to trace, then it should go without a hitch.

What I'm getting at even when it's time, the person to release it to the wild cant go "here is the link I made, now spread it"  Because then it will be on record of who exactly and where it came from.
Then yeah, the rest of the servers may not be able to get shut down but that person or persons they catch can still be charged with copyright infringement and or contributory copyright infringement with the punishment of the tow being nearly the same.

Of course they wont go after every single private server any more than with the Napster case they didn't go after every single person who used Napster. I the end Napster paid dearly for them all in a way.  And did it stop music piracy? Heck no. But believe it or not, that isn't the point. It's a public execution in a sense of it's more about a show of force than actually solving the problem. The question is, is someone prepared to be the chicken that is sacrificed for the greater good?

As  Tahquitz said, no telling who is who and this private server thing been spread around even recall seeing it mentioned in the comment section of some Massively articles, that only thing secret to the people right now is who is working on it. Someone could be gathering and archiving every bit of information about this entire project as we speak, and turning it in. And in reality, it can go a long way with intent. Someone who didn't know, and copy a song here and there are usually let off with, a don't do it again. But when the intent is clear with the plan on taking something and trying to make sure they will never find out and spread it to the wild, then yeah better have a J. Cochran hanging about to explain that one wasn't with the intent to knowingly distribute copyrighted materials. 

Best thing yet, is simply don't get caught, either way, just in case until the gray is clear. I know some people cant wait until it's up and running so they can mail NCSOFT "Screw you ha I got a private server" letter, but that can be slam dunk ruinous. And when they get it up and running, they probably should play hot potatoe and get it out quickly and then lay low. And or use something that cant be traced. Yes public library computers can be traced. Many hackers and child porn people got caught not because of what was on their personal computer but what they did in public computers. This isn't the movies.

But I think they can pull it off if they are smart about it and restrain from trying to shove it in NCSOFT face when it do go live. If they are going to find out about it let them do the leg work and not do it for them by teasing them with it.  Because hey, if we leave them alone about it they may not bother, but if people started getting bold and everytime it turns around it's about how players are screwing NCSOFT because they have a private server or getting back at NCSOFT, then NCSOFT may have no choice but to do something or else it may send message that anyone can do it and NCSOFT wont do a single thing. Then word of C&D or worse gets out, then people see that, and NCSOFT count of people saying hey, NCSOFT shut down another private server. While some think it's more negative publicity, in a way it's a sign that NCSOFT don't play when it comes to that. Blizzard, yeah they seem spotty. sometimes they shut down a few others times they don't seem to bother.  I still cant help to think in did it ever cross anyone mind to simply ask NCSOFT? Never know what they may say. They may say yes. If they say no, then it was expected anyways and the route doesn't change.

 But on the internet, there is no such thing as secret. Most countries even signed a anti-piracy agreement meaning that if one even say copy something from India and that Indian company make a fuss, the US will look into it. Those countries that havent signed are mostly countries where copyright would be least of the worries, like Iran, and other countries where if someone did a proxy origin name with those countries it would raise more serious flags than copyright. But even Proxies are not as secret as they used to be because the proxy server still have on their database the true origin. And a lot easier to obtain records than it used to be and what the proxy ads let on. Kind of side effect I chasing online criminals. And with IPs not wanting to be responsible for activites of the consumer usually turn over records or rid of the customer rather than get tangled in that sort of mess.

Who every release it into the wild, they have to be on their A game. Because if it spreads like intended then they could be pegged as beyond simple personal copyright to international big stakes copyright infringement person. And in the law it do states that the law applies regardless if money was made or not. This is all assuming if crap hits the fan or there is indeed something illegal going on. But if done properly then there should not be much worries.

Why would any copyrighted material be distributed?

I thought the idea behind SCORE was to create a server emulator? Creating something that can talk to the COH client is not illegal nor is it copyright infringement from my understanding. NCSoft might not like it... they might even have enough standing to push a C&D out to the developer of this hypothetical emulator before they finish it... but the emulator itself does not infringe upon copyright and without knowing who's doing what NCSoft has no place to send a C&D. So no. I don't believe NCSoft could do squat to anyone who uploaded an emulator so long as it didn't contain material from the actual game they produced. They could scare an ISP into taking down the file but they wouldn't be able to do anything legally to harm the individual(s) who uploaded such a file.

Basically once that emulator is out in the wild the genie is out of the bottle and there'll be nothing NCSoft can do to stop it. If they convince an ISP to take down a file, 10 more will pop up elsewhere. Considering the proliferation of ACTUAL copyright infringement and piracy on torrent sites like the Pirate Bay, why on earth would this one tiny emulator, which was created by someone other than NCSoft, and doesn't contain any of their proprietary content, be in any actual danger of disappearing from the internet?

[JaguarX]

Why would any copyrighted material be distributed?

I thought the idea behind SCORE was to create a server emulator? Creating something that can talk to the COH client is not illegal nor is it copyright infringement from my understanding. NCSoft might not like it... they might even have enough standing to push a C&D out to the developer of this hypothetical emulator before they finish it... but the emulator itself does not infringe upon copyright and without knowing who's doing what NCSoft has no place to send a C&D. So no. I don't believe NCSoft could do squat to anyone who uploaded an emulator so long as it didn't contain material from the actual game they produced. They could scare an ISP into taking down the file but they wouldn't be able to do anything legally to harm the individual(s) who uploaded such a file.

Basically once that emulator is out in the wild the genie is out of the bottle and there'll be nothing NCSoft can do to stop it. If they convince an ISP to take down a file, 10 more will pop up elsewhere. Considering the proliferation of ACTUAL copyright infringement and piracy on torrent sites like the Pirate Bay, why on earth would this one tiny emulator, which was created by someone other than NCSoft, and doesn't contain any of their proprietary content, be in any actual danger of disappearing from the internet?

That is why the last paragraph I said is important. " But if done properly then there should not be much worries."

But why would the likes of pirate bay is still up and why would they worry about emulator? Not sure but I assume the same reason why some copyright infringement sites get taken down and others don't. As I also said, just because someone gets away with it, doesn't mean it's legal and ok. Kind of the same reason why some emulators do not get bothered while others are served with C&D and or get shut down. Why some people can do 80 in a 60 and not get pulled ever but later in the day one same stretch of road manned by a different cop or in many cases the same cop, someone get pulled over for merely doing 65 in a 60. Usually the defense of "Well others are doing it" usually don't go well asa defense in court But again as I said, if there is nothing illegal going on or it's not done in an illegal manner then there is no worries.

[Kyriani]

That is why the last paragraph I said is important. " But if done properly then there should not be much worries."

But why would the likes of pirate bay is still up and why would they worry about emulator? Not sure but I assume the same reason why some copyright infringement sites get taken down and others don't. As I also said, just because someone gets away with it, doesn't mean it's legal and ok. Kind of the same reason why some emulators do not get bothered while others are served with C&D and or get shut down. Why some people can do 80 in a 60 and not get pulled ever but later in the day one same stretch of road manned by a different cop or in many cases the same cop, someone get pulled over for merely doing 65 in a 60. Usually the defense of "Well others are doing it" usually don't go well asa defense in court But again as I said, if there is nothing illegal going on or it's not done in an illegal manner then there is no worries.

I'm not trying to say that not getting caught equates to it being ok. I'm just saying that creating an emulator is not in fact illegal nor infringing upon copyright. It's an original piece of software that is capable of communicating with another piece of software that IS copyright protected. But such emulation software is perfectly legal and NCSoft has no standing to have such an emulator taken down from any website. I only used the Pirate Bay example to highlight that if illegal downloads are getting away with doing so... why would a perfectly legal download have any great issue?

What NCSoft CAN do is serve people hosting private servers that include copyright protected materials they own with C&D's to shut them down. But considering how prolific I expect the SCORE project to be once it is out there, and consider how small in the grand scheme of things our community is, I doubt NCSoft will even bother with that unless by some miracle a server/servergroup grows in size to dwarf the original COH population at its best. And even then, if NC shuts down one private server 10 more will take its place. Then of course there will be the underground of private servers that aren't generally publicized and stay off the radar... or the people who simply host their own to play solo. In the end COH lives on no matter what they do.

[thunderforce]

I'm not trying to say that not getting caught equates to it being ok. I'm just saying that creating an emulator is not in fact illegal nor infringing upon copyright. It's an original piece of software that is capable of communicating with another piece of software that IS copyright protected.

Unfortunately, if I can sneak a post in before the next wall of incoherence, in some jurisdictions that doesn't get you very far: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnetd#Blizzard_takedown_demand_and_lawsuit .

On the face of it, bnetd was "just an emulator", but the DMCA is very wide-ranging.

Of course the Secret Project could be released and hosted in a sensible jurisdiction.

[Kyriani]

Unfortunately, if I can sneak a post in before the next wall of incoherence, in some jurisdictions that doesn't get you very far: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnetd#Blizzard_takedown_demand_and_lawsuit .

On the face of it, bnetd was "just an emulator", but the DMCA is very wide-ranging.

Of course the Secret Project could be released and hosted in a sensible jurisdiction.

It's also important to note with that case however, that although Blizzard won , the lawsuit did not stop the continued distribution of bnetd's open source code, nor of derivative projects such as PvPGN.

[Arachnion]

All I gotta say is.. why hasn't NC Soft gone after Titan Icon?

I'm pretty sure it goes against their TOS/EULA, and yet, here we are.

Plus, the last Beta client is available in its entirety, on a public website.

So... yeah..

[Little David]

My guess is, Icon isn't a big enough "threat" to NCSoft to warrant a takedown; it's a violation, but it doesn't actually bring the game back like a server emulator. Or, it may be due to a lack of publicity.

In Infinite Rasa's case, I'm pretty sure its development landed on a few MMORPG news sites. Not the big gaming journalism ones, but it was very visible leading up to the takedown.

[MWRuger]

There are still ways to release things anonymously. You can't make it impossible to track but you can make it very difficult. Sometimes when a dodgy site is shuttered it takes political pressure from the government on a foreign power to make it happen. Since NCSoft or whoever owns the IP is unlikely to have much clout on countries who court anonymous internet activity.

Charging is a no-no, but the way Space and Beyond handles it is that they accept donations to cover server cost, but not one penny more. But in that case they are allowed by EA to proceed (I was astonished when I learned the EA was willing to work with it's defunct MMO communities. Credit where it is due. Still don't like Origin tho) so the same rational might not apply.

But all this is academic at this point.

I do have to say that IF i ran a private server, I would run it for my buds and I to play on and I would make it generic Out of the Box. I'm not a dev, I don't wanna be. The idea of balancing powersets and all that stuff gives me the heebie jeebies.

Also, even if I had a one, I would shutter it the moment that COH made a triumphant return. To me, CoT and Private Servers are all I might be able to get until COH returns (Unlikely, but: "a man's reach should exceed his grasp -- or what's a heaven for?")

[blacksly]

I do have to say that IF i ran a private server, I would run it for my buds and I to play on and I would make it generic Out of the Box. I'm not a dev, I don't wanna be. The idea of balancing powersets and all that stuff gives me the heebie jeebies.

I, on the other hand, would love to run on code on a private-run server. The ability to add new stuff that makes players go "wow, that is COOL!" is the best part of being a dev.

[MWRuger]

Blacksky, if it ever happens I am happy to ride on the hard work of others. So if someone out there develops, tests, balances and then tests again, I would consider adding it as long it felt right to the spirit of the game.

Actually, I would love to do dev work, but I'm lying if I say I could or would actually have time to do it. So I leave it to you with time and inclination.

[Little David]

Generally it would be nice to keep the community together and not have it fragment into a ton of different tiny Cities. Even when back when the game was alive I sometimes wished I'd played on Virtue rather than Guardian, especially redside, because of how desolate it could get.

[MWRuger]

We'll just have to wait and see what's available, how underground it will be, etc. I just want the city the way it was mainly (ish 24 would be nice). If I can get that on server that everyone is logging in at, I would be cool with that. But if it's just bunch of hacked and jimmied content then I would pass. There were some things I didn't like about COH, but DAMN few of them.


But this is all academic since we can't really discuss a top secret project (which we don't have any knowledge of such a thing anyway) in a public forum.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I can only imagine it would be like UOX or Sphere if such a project did exist.  There would probably be large servers that people could play it.  But anyone with an internet connection would be able to host one.  Besides I would like to be able to log into a private server that is offline at my house so I could mess around with character builds and stuff.  .setaccountprivs4 style for anyone who hosted/worked on the UO Emulators

[Kyriani]

Yea I too would like an "offline" mode to play when I am without an internet connection. That's one of the things I am really looking forward to when the SCORE thing finally comes to light.

[JaguarX]

I'm not trying to say that not getting caught equates to it being ok. I'm just saying that creating an emulator is not in fact illegal nor infringing upon copyright. It's an original piece of software that is capable of communicating with another piece of software that IS copyright protected. But such emulation software is perfectly legal and NCSoft has no standing to have such an emulator taken down from any website. I only used the Pirate Bay example to highlight that if illegal downloads are getting away with doing so... why would a perfectly legal download have any great issue?

What NCSoft CAN do is serve people hosting private servers that include copyright protected materials they own with C&D's to shut them down. But considering how prolific I expect the SCORE project to be once it is out there, and consider how small in the grand scheme of things our community is, I doubt NCSoft will even bother with that unless by some miracle a server/servergroup grows in size to dwarf the original COH population at its best. And even then, if NC shuts down one private server 10 more will take its place. Then of course there will be the underground of private servers that aren't generally publicized and stay off the radar... or the people who simply host their own to play solo. In the end COH lives on no matter what they do.

ya missing the part where I'm saying if it's legal it wont have any issues. I'm talking about illegal stuff. If it's legal, for the fifth time, I said, they will have no problems.

[JaguarX]

All I gotta say is.. why hasn't NC Soft gone after Titan Icon?

I'm pretty sure it goes against their TOS/EULA, and yet, here we are.

Plus, the last Beta client is available in its entirety, on a public website.

So... yeah..

Probably for the same reason why some many WMG videos are muted and blocked while some still live on to this day.

Their action will never stop people from putting up videos, but as long as they take a  video down here and there people cant then say, "well they never take the video downs so it must be ok". As long as they take a video down here and there, it is known they don't like their materials going on you tube without their permission, and it's free to watch you tube videos.

But then again don't forget the SOPA thing that is being proposed. While most consumers don't see what the big deal about copyright or using other people's stuff is and think it's harmless and probably shouldn't even a be a crime, it's major concern in business and even in congress. But again if it's not illegal then there is nothing to worry about at all.

Or why can one person kill someone say they did it and get 5 years while the other get electric chair or why one person c an steal fro mthe store gets probation first offense while someone else steal the same thing I nthe same manner on the same day but get a few months in jai.

[Ohioknight]

Yea I too would like an "offline" mode to play when I am without an internet connection. That's one of the things I am really looking forward to when the SCORE thing finally comes to light.

From your lips to any beneficent deity's ears -- a thousand times THIS!

[Ohioknight]

All I gotta say is.. why hasn't NC Soft gone after Titan Icon?

I'm pretty sure it goes against their TOS/EULA, and yet, here we are.

Plus, the last Beta client is available in its entirety, on a public website.

So... yeah..

If you freely distribute a software client in a form and method that doesn't actually require anyone using it to agree to anything (which I understand is, in fact, the case with the COH 24beta client), it would seem remarkably difficult to put forward a case that someone is violating an agreement that they never agreed to.  Which doesn't prevent someone from undertaking legal action, of course -- you can sue the Bishop of Boston for Bastardy as my Father used to say -- but it does make such a legal action somewhat perilous.

[Ohioknight]

If you freely distribute a software client in a form and method that doesn't actually require anyone using it to agree to anything (which I understand is, in fact, the case with the COH 24beta client), it would seem remarkably difficult to put forward a case that someone is violating an agreement that they never agreed to.  Which doesn't prevent someone from undertaking legal action, of course -- you can sue the Bishop of Boston for Bastardy as my Father used to say -- but it does make such a legal action somewhat perilous.

I would think this would make game CONTENT a hazard -- the Positron task force mission dialogs are copyright NC Soft and I don't believe they are included in the client (I'm not sure of this) but the power animations, emotes, maps, AE game development front end, and so forth, including a number of characters ARE included in the client, and software that causes the client to present them and create behavior using them cannot reasonably be cast as a violation of NC Soft's rights.

[JaguarX]

I would think this would make game CONTENT a hazard -- the Positron task force mission dialogs are copyright NC Soft and I don't believe they are included in the client (I'm not sure of this) but the power animations, emotes, maps, AE game development front end, and so forth, including a number of characters ARE included in the client, and software that causes the client to present them and create behavior using them cannot reasonably be cast as a violation of NC Soft's rights.

Indeed.

Same for the artwork, character names, bios, map names to the maps aka Atlas City in NCSOFT COX Atlas City form, and etc.

That is the tricky part. Some stuff that is behind the client, probably will have to be changed or emulated anyways and thus is not by definition what NCSOFT used.

But people forget that the characters and their stuff is also copyrighted. Hence why some games like Cryptic and whoever had to purchase the right to Champions IP in order to make the game instead of making the game and flicking off the laws. Even though the online game probably would in no way shape or fashion interefere wit hthe operation of the PnP version and stuff.


But since they said, many times, the SCORE project will not break any laws I guess that means there wont be Positron per se, but maybe "Atom" or something.