Thoughts on Hail Mary, one year later

[Noyjitat]

Check this thread http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,9171.msg132332.html#msg132332

Answers everything nicely.

Kinda hard for me to believe. IF they really shut the game down due to legal issue it would of been immediate and not 3 months later. Going to read more... hmm. Oh its a JC thread - Joshex Conspiracy <3

[Nightmarer]

While mitt hands were bearable for old COX players, it probably wont fly too well if they plan on bringing in profits and new gamers. And lastly they probably would make chances to try to increase profits better than before. Meaning there probably will be changes to reach a wider audience that wasn't there in game before, that may be standard in other games that are frowned upon in the classic COX community, but brings in more people.

I personally think that's the biggest strength of CoH. See, latest big AAA MMO games are targetting the fabled "casual player" and failing miserably, being SWTOR arguably the biggest example... well, I don't think any MMO game can get more casual than CoH, you get to accomplish stuff whether you log for 30 min or for 30 hours and yet it went unnoticed because it had no marketing whatsoever.

It's understandable that anyone investing money will try to get the money back plus profits and here there's a golden opportunity to cater for the casual player aka the golden jackpot and still goes unnoticed probably because everyone wants to get the casual player's attention by copying the endgame raiding model and making it stupidly easy, which does not please neither casual nor hardcore gamers.

[Iron-Emerald]

If any potential buyer is interested in CoH, either from TFHM or otherwise, I think the current Kickstarter for City of Titans would only fuel their interest. The funding of the game coming so quickly shows just how much interest is still out there for CoH and how many people are prepared to back up that interest with cash. Any buyers could have been scared that the player base had moved on, but the Kickstarter shows that there is still a market.

Obviously the other side is that NCSoft may still be unwilling to sell or may even ask for more. But I think City of Titans doing well could only help the chances for TFHM type activities.

[JaguarX]

It's understandable that anyone investing money will try to get the money back plus profits and here there's a golden opportunity to cater for the casual player aka the golden jackpot and still goes unnoticed probably because everyone wants to get the casual player's attention by copying the endgame raiding model and making it stupidly easy, which does not please neither casual nor hardcore gamers.

indeed

[Omega Mark V]

Yes, I think it's time to announce TFHM as officially dead and buried.

Hello? http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,9171.msg132332.html#msg132332

It's been linked 3 times now. 

None the less, at this point I am more over looking forward to MWM's City of Titans. It's a project that is completely funded, and will come out. That's something we can all be assured of (unless something catastrophic would happen). However, when it comes to City of Heroes, I can only say I hope that it's purchased and opened again at some point. It just doesn't seem right.

Also, I've always wanted a sequel to City of Heroes more than I wanted to continue playing the original since around 2010. Some might consider this as 'bad,' but it's the truth for me. That's why City's closure really hit me hard. I was sure there wouldn't be another game created that was as fun as it that I would enjoy again in my life.

But this community sure pulled through so far with MWM and it's City of Titans!

I consider City of Titans to fill the role of a 'City of Heroes sequel' so far. It's not direct, but it looks darn close enough for me. I'll have to wait and see how close it is to the original in spirit. City of Heroes just gave this certain 'feel' of gameplay that kept me addicted; I can only hope the spiritual successors follow suit.

Anyway, back on track, don't say TFHM is dead unless we know for sure. We're left out of business practice, so assuming it's 'dead' isn't the right thing to do at the moment, until explicitly stated. Sure we aren't contributing to any company's decisions at the moment, but that doesn't mean one of the companies we have contacted isn't working on something.

[AlabasterKnight]

...City of Titans. It's a project that is completely funded, and will come out. That's something we can all be assured of (unless something catastrophic would happen). 

I wish that project well, but it is far from completely funded. The Kickstarter is not the complete development nut and actually, even at the KS current funding level, likely only 1/60th what it will take to ensure a 3 year development frame into its intended state. We hope it will come out and not meet misfortune.
My biggest concern is that in its volunteer state, burnout and turnover would (due to people having real lives and families and other jobs) cause the development time frame to extended beyond three years or longer and by that time be irrelevant to the market or surpassed by a "professional" studio.

TFHM still has juice. You'll see.

[Omega Mark V]

I wish that project well, but it is far from completely funded. The Kickstarter is not the complete development nut and actually, even at the KS current funding level, likely only 1/60th what it will take to ensure a 3 year development frame into its intended state. We hope it will come out and not meet misfortune.
My biggest concern is that in its volunteer state, burnout and turnover would (due to people having real lives and families and other jobs) cause the development time frame to extended beyond three years or longer and by that time be irrelevant to the market or surpassed by a "professional" studio.

TFHM still has juice. You'll see.

Yeah, I don't doubt the issues that MWM faces with their studios, nor their KS goal being a fraction of what they needed to start out. I'm just glad that they were successfully funded so far. We can at least know it will be in development, but it will take a while for them to complete the game, especially in their volunteer state.

I basically meant that their KS project is completely funded. The project can start with a good step forward. MMO's take a ton of money to be complete, I know that.

And yes, TFHM is very much still an option. I'm waiting to see what it will do next; it's just that I'm also excited to know that we have a successfully started spiritual sequel in the works!

[Arcana]

I wish that project well, but it is far from completely funded. The Kickstarter is not the complete development nut and actually, even at the KS current funding level, likely only 1/60th what it will take to ensure a 3 year development frame into its intended state. We hope it will come out and not meet misfortune.

If by that you mean it would take about 20 million dollars to fund a three year development plan, I should point out that would only be true if Missing Worlds Media was structured like a large commercial studio, with most of the costs going to salary and benefits, rent and equipment leases, and other corporate expenditures that Missing Worlds doesn't have.  A community development project only needs to fund the cost of development tools the developers need and don't possess, and other much smaller project costs.

Also, a substantial amount of time developing an MMO like City of Heroes is spent in two endeavours: first in design iteration; every MMO beta I've seen has written and rewritten and rewritten the design of how the game works.  Second in developing the game engine.  MWM is using off the shelf engine code and isn't really writing their own engine from scratch.  And they already have a basic blueprint for the game: they have City of Heroes itself as a reference point.  So I believe its reasonable to believe that an 18 month cycle is a more appropriate estimate than a three year one, with the caveat that volunteer efforts timetables are more difficult to predict.

I still don't think MWM is a *certainty* of course, but I believe it has a very, very good chance of delivering *something*, and probably something worth supporting at least initially.  Full disclosure: I am a Kickstarter supporter of the project.

[ukaserex]

I still don't think MWM is a *certainty* of course, but I believe it has a very, very good chance of delivering *something*, and probably something worth supporting at least initially.  Full disclosure: I am a Kickstarter supporter of the project.

I'd feel a lot better if you were a part of MWM, but an endorsement from someone as sharp as yourself goes a long way with me.

[Arcana]

I'd feel a lot better if you were a part of MWM, but an endorsement from someone as sharp as yourself goes a long way with me.

I should emphasize that an endorsement from me in this case is not a statement of my belief that success is certain, but rather that the potential benefit is worth the risk.  Everyone must make their own decision when it comes to pledging funds for any Kickstarter project, none of which offer a guarantee of success.

To me, City of Heroes was not just a game.  It was a player community, it was a constellation of in-game communities, it was a complex web of player-developer interactions.  It was a unique thing I honestly don't see anywhere else.  I'm not naive enough to think it can ever be exactly as it was, but I believe any legitimate attempt to revive that environment is worth supporting, at least for me.

[Noyjitat]

I'd feel a lot better if you were a part of MWM, but an endorsement from someone as sharp as yourself goes a long way with me.

I'm giving them my support and you should to Think about all those fun times we had together and how we aren't having them now

[Mandrake]

I'm giving them my support and you should to Think about all those fun times we had together and how we aren't having them now

I agree. I'm supporting all three of them. CoT, VO, and HaV (Whenever HaV starts accepting funds I'll do that too). I hope to enjoy the feeling of seeing all of those heroes everywhere. All those Villains plotting their next scheme. I imagine in my mind how cool it would be to at least at some point or another, see all of you in all three worlds!

[Ohioknight]

...  Second in developing the game engine.  MWM is using off the shelf engine code and isn't really writing their own engine from scratch.  ...
I still don't think MWM is a *certainty* of course, but I believe it has a very, very good chance of delivering *something*, and probably something worth supporting at least initially.  Full disclosure: I am a Kickstarter supporter of the project.

Full Disclosure: I am also a Kickstarter supporter of the project.

I believe MWM has a very good chance of delivering a character creator.  But while they are not writing their own engine from scratch, they ARE writing their own MMO from scratch because their engine doesn't include MMO functionality and they are intending to develop it themselves.  That makes me remarkably less sanguine about their chances.

[downix]

If by that you mean it would take about 20 million dollars to fund a three year development plan, I should point out that would only be true if Missing Worlds Media was structured like a large commercial studio, with most of the costs going to salary and benefits, rent and equipment leases, and other corporate expenditures that Missing Worlds doesn't have.  A community development project only needs to fund the cost of development tools the developers need and don't possess, and other much smaller project costs.

Also, a substantial amount of time developing an MMO like City of Heroes is spent in two endeavours: first in design iteration; every MMO beta I've seen has written and rewritten and rewritten the design of how the game works.  Second in developing the game engine.  MWM is using off the shelf engine code and isn't really writing their own engine from scratch.  And they already have a basic blueprint for the game: they have City of Heroes itself as a reference point.  So I believe its reasonable to believe that an 18 month cycle is a more appropriate estimate than a three year one, with the caveat that volunteer efforts timetables are more difficult to predict.

I still don't think MWM is a *certainty* of course, but I believe it has a very, very good chance of delivering *something*, and probably something worth supporting at least initially.  Full disclosure: I am a Kickstarter supporter of the project.

The attitude that "there isn't enough money to do it" is very common among established development channels, far beyond even game development. How many people in 1990 proclaimed that a Server Operating System required tens of millions and needed a dedicated team of 100? Today a large portion of the servers out there run an operating system created by a bunch of volunteers, initially started by a student in Finland. How many people proclaimed that 3d printers required tens of millions and needed dozens of engineers? Now I can pick up a dozen 3d printers, again, designed by a bunch of volunteers. And an MMO is a tinker toy compared to the kinds of tasks these systems handle.

Whenever I hear "you need xyz amount and abc number of developers" I smile, because it tells me that the person speaking has stuck themselves in a box.

I would even point out that we would not be the first MMO to be handled by volunteers. That distinction belongs to The Saga of Ryzom, now 9 years running, 7 of which after its original developer went bankrupt, with its assets now under an open source license.

[JaguarX]

The attitude that "there isn't enough money to do it" is very common among established development channels, far beyond even game development. How many people in 1990 proclaimed that a Server Operating System required tens of millions and needed a dedicated team of 100? Today a large portion of the servers out there run an operating system created by a bunch of volunteers, initially started by a student in Finland. How many people proclaimed that 3d printers required tens of millions and needed dozens of engineers? Now I can pick up a dozen 3d printers, again, designed by a bunch of volunteers. And an MMO is a tinker toy compared to the kinds of tasks these systems handle.

Whenever I hear "you need xyz amount and abc number of developers" I smile, because it tells me that the person speaking has stuck themselves in a box.

Yup but don't forget the tons that didn't make it before that one finally did get through. And not everyone even in today world can get up and build a 3d printer out of the blue in a successful manner.

But luckily, MWM isn't first non-professional game being made even in the MMO world, so they have lot of material of what worked what didn't work and what could possibly work now that didn't work then to go by, if they choose to heed to it.

A lot of stuff like this fail due to over confidence and not being honest with the weaknesses. Many figure they know a little about it and thus, their skill are infallible and unquestionable expert level when in reality, there are holes in their skills. Now holes in skills usually is not a killer as long as the builders are honest with themselves to know they are not perfect or near perfect and still can have open mind to learn. Those the latter type that isn't afraid to admit mistakes, know they are not perfect, take responsibility for the good AND bad, and know their weakness and know their strengths and took a look at it in a honest non egotistical view usually are the ones that end up finding the greatest success. Because those types can even turn their weakness into strength but there isnt any way to turn a weakness into strength if the fear of admitting there are weakness is present and or the presence of weakness is denied.

[downix]

Yup but don't forget the tons that didn't make it before that one finally did get through. And not everyone even in today world can get up and build a 3d printer out of the blue in a successful manner.

Of course. I mention from time to time that I was one of the first developers for Gentoo Linux. What I also mention is that it was one of 9 different Linux distributions I helped out with.

[OzonePrime]

Of course. I mention from time to time that I was one of the first developers for Gentoo Linux. What I also mention is that it was one of 9 different Linux distributions I helped out with.

Very cool!

[downix]

Very cool!

I was a kernel builder. I knew tricks to get every oz of performance out of the pre-2.2 Linux kernel. So people who wanted a high-performance kernel, I wound up helping.

[Rae]

Yes, I think it's time to announce TFHM as officially dead and buried.

That's a shame. Guess we'll just throw out the pitch Quinch has been working on, then... :-)

[Thunder Glove]

That's a shame. Guess we'll just throw out the pitch Quinch has been working on, then... :-)

Woohoo.  That's what I was hoping to hear

Edit: er, that you're working on another pitch, not that you're throwing it out.  DON'T THROW IT OUT.