Author Topic: Powers Usage  (Read 3421 times)

Super Firebug

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Powers Usage
« on: August 04, 2013, 07:49:59 AM »
I'm finding that there's one thing I actually like better in CO, and I wish CoX had done it this way: the way powers are used. Imagine you're firing real-life weapons in the same way that a CoX Rifle blaster's powers worked. Does it make sense to fire a Sniper-Rifle shot, then switch to your assault rifle for a short Burst, then switch weapons to fire a big Slug (like a deer slug), then switch back for another Burst, then switch to your Flamethrower, etc.? In CO, there are some weapons/powers that do have recharge time, like in CoX. But, for the most part, I can count on my SMG Burst being available to spray groups of baddies in general, using Assault Rifle for a longer-range attention-getter if I want to separate groups, saving Sniper and Orbital Cannon for a more-devastating opening salvo against the bigger bads, etc. The way the powers are used just seems more realistic, including when I get to a point, in a mission, where I look at a group and think, "Okay, the way I normally do things won't cut it against these guys. Time to use different powers and tactics."

If I were to change one thing about how CoX basically worked, I think that'd be it. I don't know why the devs had us bouncing all over the power tray.

(Edited to - hopefully - add clarity.)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 10:33:44 PM by Super Firebug »
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silvers1

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Re: Powers Usage
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 11:52:19 AM »
You'd have to majorly nerf damage for most powers if there is no recharge timer. 
( or greatly increase HPs for most mobs )

Not sure many would go for that.

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Eoraptor

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Re: Powers Usage
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 06:57:19 PM »
A lot of that was down to the graphics engine used. You'll note other differences in CO versus CoX such as scalable body parts, individual fingers and toes, and more costume mounting points.  The consideration that "okay, we don't have the horse power for everyone to carry three different weapons animations" largely drove how the power tray was configured and how the cool-downs worked. If your toon isn't going to whip out a 40mm grenade launcher when fighting Dr Vazhilosk and his tightly grouped slow moving minions and then switch to twin pistols for close in work; then the way those powers are slotted in the tray necessarily changes a bit to suit your view point.

its one of those things that makes me wish we could have gotten City 2 with more powerful processing. however it would have disenfranchised some players with older computers too.

just IMhO
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Archlight

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Re: Powers Usage
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2013, 06:28:45 PM »
I like how powers work in COH you have a lot of powers that you can use situationally. Sure they have cool down's that's why you have lots of them. Plus you can do things to change the recharge like hasten or IO set bonuses. To fill the recharge gaps keeping DPS up and to address specific situations. In CO I find once you have some basic powers to cover range and Ranged AOE your pretty solid.

CO for me is only interesting and fun with Force KB style powers that you can spam click till the KB happens then power up for a big blast. While its active I really liked powers the COH way clicking on what I had and building the combinations I wanted. One Blaster of mine was all about having an attack chain of cones. Had 5 Cone attack and always played him for ToT events. Each one had slightly different SFX. In CO you would be nuts to have five different cones.


JaguarX

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Re: Powers Usage
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2013, 10:05:40 PM »
I'm finding that there's one thing I actually like better in CO, and I wish CoX had done it this way: the way powers are used. Imagine you're firing real-life weapons in the same way that a CoX Rifle blaster's powers worked. Does it make sense to fire a Sniper-Rifle shot, then switch to your assault rifle for a short Burst, then switch weapons to fire a big Slug (like a deer slug), then switch back for another Burst, then switch to your Flamethrower, etc.? In CO, there are some weapons/powers that do have recharge time, like in CoX. But, for the most part, I can count on my SMG Burst being available to spray groups of baddies in general, using Assault Rifle for a longer-range attention-getter if I want to separate groups, saving Sniper and Orbital Cannon for a more-devastating opening salvo against the bigger bads, etc. The way the powers are used just seems more realistic, including when I get to a point, in a mission, where I look at a group and think, "Okay, the way I normally do things won't cut it against these guys. Time to use different powers and tactics."

If I were to change one thing about how CoX basically worked, I think that'd be it. I don't know why the devs had us bouncing all over the power tray.

(Edited to - hopefully - add clarity.)

Yeah the cool downs in COX were tedious at times, especially when against -recharge mobs.

"well since my recharge is bottomed out and I cant attack might as well go to Subway and get a sammich."

In CO, no recharge but I personally still use variety of powers depending on the situations and can change depending on how quick a situation can change. In COX is was more simply a matter of, "Ok which one going to take forever to reload. Might as well use that one first and hope by the time I fire off the rest, it will be ready to go."

Not that COX combat was bad, it was excellent for the time period it was made and what they had to work with. But like the difference between a 42 Ford mid level and a 2011 Ford mid level, things progress. Although taking a cruise in a 42 Ford here and there isnt bad, just noisy, fumey, and clunky shift points and not very comfortable overall but was very good for the time period it was made in. And the 42 Ford is considered an American Steel classic while the 2011 probably will never be considered a classic when it reaches the age of the 42.

LaughingAlex

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Re: Powers Usage
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2013, 05:05:24 PM »
Honestly, the difference between CO and CoH were that CO you had only 1-2 attacks for single target(if two, usually one lighter ST attack with good dps and one bursty attack with more concentrated damage in one moment), and 1-2 attacks for AoE(often not much different types in terms of pressure damage or burst damage than STs, just AoE), while CoH you had 3-4 ST attacks and 2-3 AoEs.

Now, I agree that CoH's combat was "clunkier", I felt it had more depth because attacks always had secondary effects rather then just raw damage.  Even fire had secondary "extra damage".  Thing is in CO, powers almost never really have any useful secondary effects.  Because of that, whenever one power becomes the new "best damage/second" half the community rushes to use it, because EVERYTHING ELSE SUCKS SINCE THERE IS NO POINT TO USE IT.

That is a core reason so many had switched to lead tempest and two gun mojo for example.  Both do very high damage, but two gun has the best damage per second over time as a maintain and it's the best tier 0 power now with no competition in ranged.  Blasts are currently weak(always have been), so they only get used by those who are forced to use em, archtypes.  CO also suffers from the few secondary effects generally not being useful 90% of the time(the debuff effects that do exist are often way to low in magnitude).

CoH however made sure all the powers were "standardized", so that no one set was more powerful then another, and instead separated them on secondary effects, and those secondary effects made a huge difference.  It worked, was just a hair clunky.

I'd say we could standardize attacks but set it up so that it's more streamlined, so yeah we don't need an "attack chain", but maybe say ranged and melee can both have combos in one power?  And make secondary effects matter.  I think that'd be better then both; we'd have the smoothness of CO but the depth of CoH.

Edit:

Thought i'd include how CO handled melee however before I forget.  Melee sets in general in CO are generally far better in terms of viable variety than ranged.  In the combos alone, many are very comparable in damage/second, but all of them are separated by secondary effects.  Given the sets themselves are anything but "balanced", with some lacking AoEs entirely and generally being crippled for it, but they all have there advantages.  Telekinesis for example has a superior crit chance with it's main combo, and that main combo rapidly builds up ego leeches, which in turn can power some other attacks to unleash a heavy burst that can then proceed to rapidly build ego leeches up again.  You have the option of using the main combo for it's immense crit chance(and you can use it for either damage or more defensively), and bursting it out very smoothly.  Other melee sets tend to do similar based on the buff/debuffs in play.  The only set that fails currently is power armors laser sword, which has so much setup time and is so LUCK based in that setup time that it's totally useless.

It's not so much that laser sword itself sucks, but the fact that all of the new "laser sword" themed powers generally suck because you only have a % chance to gain the debuff effects and you essentially sacrifice alot of damage to combo anything together.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 05:14:45 PM by LaughingAlex »
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JaguarX

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Re: Powers Usage
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2013, 06:21:23 PM »
Honestly, the difference between CO and CoH were that CO you had only 1-2 attacks for single target(if two, usually one lighter ST attack with good dps and one bursty attack with more concentrated damage in one moment), and 1-2 attacks for AoE(often not much different types in terms of pressure damage or burst damage than STs, just AoE), while CoH you had 3-4 ST attacks and 2-3 AoEs.

Now, I agree that CoH's combat was "clunkier", I felt it had more depth because attacks always had secondary effects rather then just raw damage.  Even fire had secondary "extra damage".  Thing is in CO, powers almost never really have any useful secondary effects.  Because of that, whenever one power becomes the new "best damage/second" half the community rushes to use it, because EVERYTHING ELSE SUCKS SINCE THERE IS NO POINT TO USE IT.

That is a core reason so many had switched to lead tempest and two gun mojo for example.  Both do very high damage, but two gun has the best damage per second over time as a maintain and it's the best tier 0 power now with no competition in ranged.  Blasts are currently weak(always have been), so they only get used by those who are forced to use em, archtypes.  CO also suffers from the few secondary effects generally not being useful 90% of the time(the debuff effects that do exist are often way to low in magnitude).

CoH however made sure all the powers were "standardized", so that no one set was more powerful then another, and instead separated them on secondary effects, and those secondary effects made a huge difference.  It worked, was just a hair clunky.

I'd say we could standardize attacks but set it up so that it's more streamlined, so yeah we don't need an "attack chain", but maybe say ranged and melee can both have combos in one power?  And make secondary effects matter.  I think that'd be better then both; we'd have the smoothness of CO but the depth of CoH.

Edit:

Thought i'd include how CO handled melee however before I forget.  Melee sets in general in CO are generally far better in terms of viable variety than ranged.  In the combos alone, many are very comparable in damage/second, but all of them are separated by secondary effects.  Given the sets themselves are anything but "balanced", with some lacking AoEs entirely and generally being crippled for it, but they all have there advantages.  Telekinesis for example has a superior crit chance with it's main combo, and that main combo rapidly builds up ego leeches, which in turn can power some other attacks to unleash a heavy burst that can then proceed to rapidly build ego leeches up again.  You have the option of using the main combo for it's immense crit chance(and you can use it for either damage or more defensively), and bursting it out very smoothly.  Other melee sets tend to do similar based on the buff/debuffs in play.  The only set that fails currently is power armors laser sword, which has so much setup time and is so LUCK based in that setup time that it's totally useless.

It's not so much that laser sword itself sucks, but the fact that all of the new "laser sword" themed powers generally suck because you only have a % chance to gain the debuff effects and you essentially sacrifice alot of damage to combo anything together.
Indeed.
TGM is basically the gift drop for damage at low cost.

And the range powers do leave lot ot be desired. The secondary effects while there are either short and or by the time it set in the mob is already dead, even the tough ones.
Take best of both worlds CO smoothness and quick mixed with COX way they handled range powers and I think it would be awesome.

Melee- CO did a pretty decent job with range of powers with their ups and downs in the ATs of melee. Although I think overall it'sa bit restrictive for freebies. But hey, when something is free...got to make and leave something for people that pay money. Want to goods, pay up. Dont want to offer too much then there would be no point in paying and that's bad for business. Dont want to offer too less because then it wont entice people to pay up. COX-offered too much for free. A lot of veterans that used to pay $15 a month aint payed a single cent after Freedom came out which cut into the profits and bottom line. Although I can see why they would do what they can for free. Playing COX with all it had to offer and not pay a penny ever again, not sure what more could a person could ask for. The issue again is still thta mean less income for the game and while one chip dont matter, get enough chips, it can be detrimental. CO-offers too little for free. And I know many refuse to switch over because the taste they gte for free leaves them "meh". When if they pay, they whole lot more especially creation wise. But there is not enough. Liek website that charge for access and the taste is merely a ten second clip that spends 5 secs showing the company name and the other 5 showing what they could have. CO fail to show enough of the benefits of paying and is restrictive to the point where many just dont bother. Get in the middle and that may be the sweet spot.


But I think in a newly built game it would be possible to offer more powers than a palyer can choose in a set that way a player can be AOE master of course there should be a down side, or a single target zen master focus with downside being well, it's single target or mixture of both. This can give rise to varity of playstyles and player creative incentive.