Author Topic: Another Massively article on closing MMO's  (Read 14553 times)

JaguarX

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2013, 01:03:45 PM »
Wait a sec. now. How and when did I say you said that?

You responded to that idea. If no-one's actually advocating that idea, and they're not, that's a straw man.

Obviously I can only address the points where you have managed to write in something approximating coherent English. I can't reply to the stream-of-consciousness stuff because it doesn't make any sense. Sorry, and all that. You're quite at liberty not to continue the discussion if you don't feel it's productive.

Well, this is just the confusion with physical property again. An analogous situation would be that there is an object lying around my place - let us say, the sofa - and the state grants me an artificial monopoly on sofas, so that no-one else can have a sofa. _In that case_ should I be forced to give up the sofa (or the monopoly) if I'm not using it? Absolutely, yes.

(Of course, the idea that ownership of unused land, houses, etc. is an absolute right is also one that gets examined critically from time to time, but let's not get into that.)

Well, not quite; if they can be said to be the "owners", they're so because they have been granted a monopoly in a fashion originally intended to promote the public interest. The public interest is not promoted by having them lock it away.

(As for "That's not heroic. That is selfish.", please can we try for some sort of coherent argument, rather than rhetoric? I must admit, I wasn't aware I was a superhero - or prohibited from advocating my own interests!)

Well if you cant read it or understand it maybe you weren ot the intendeded audience.

How about go trolling someone else. When you want ot havea logical discussion about the matter, come back to me.

Yeah your own interest. Gotcha. But want to take away that right from NCSoft, in the name of your interest. Well glas you are not the law maker. So I guess NCSoft is safe for now.

Segev

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2013, 01:33:20 PM »
The restauranteur example is actually a pretty good one.

He runs it successfully. He decides he's sick of it and doesn't want to run it anymore, perhaps with some anger or bitterness in his heart (tragically) over the way the town treated him or his customers treated him or - maybe - over how somebody who wanted to take it over behaved.

He does not want to "give it to the community" by any means, not by selling it, not by giving it away; he doesn't want it to still be running, because he - perhaps selfishly - doesn't want to have to see it out there.

Or maybe, he honestly thinks its name would be tarnished if run by somebody else, somebody who would change it into something it wasn't, or somebody who would run it with the intent to compete against him in the wider market.

Maybe he's going on to bigger and better things, and has made money on this little restaurant sufficient to open a big chain or few. But the people who want to buy it from him are people who've pissed him off, or worse, whom he fears will use it to undermine his marketing campaign that involves its success.

For whatever reason - foolish or not - he does not want that restaurant to still be run. Does he have no moral right to close it, and say, "No, I will not sell; never again will that restaurant be the one that I ran, under its name and with its menu and themes?"

I say he does have a right to make that choice. Whether it is "moral" or not will, in large part, be demonstrated by whether he could be doing better if he had made the other choice.

He has no right under any moral nor ethical system to tell somebody else that they cannot open a restaurant in that town, and try to replicate his cooking style and themes. They can't use his name or his logos, but they can try to make their own that evoke the same feel (as long as it doesn't come off as trying to fool people into thinking it's the same one).

And that's how the moral righteousness comes to the fore: if he could be doing better, somebody can come in and show him how by doing it.

Anything that undermines his right to control the fate of his property undermines his agency, and that same philosophy could be used to prevent people from starting businesses in the vacuum left behind. The moment you can decide that something must exist so much that you can force people to give up their agency over what they create, you not only limit the impetus to try new things (out of fear they'll become slaves to it, somehow, or otherwise have to answer for their choices in more ways than the natural consequences of mistakes), but you create a mindset that says some external force has a legal right to tell people what they must do "for the good of the community" with their property.

If they can say, "you can't shut that restaurant down," can they also say, "you can't stop offering that dessert?" Can they not say, "You have to offer this new entree?" Why not? Where is the line drawn, and why?

thunderforce

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2013, 02:17:41 PM »
Anything that undermines his right to control the fate of his property undermines his agency, and that same philosophy could be used to prevent people from starting businesses in the vacuum left behind. The moment you can decide that something must exist so much that you can force people to give up their agency over what they create, you not only limit the impetus to try new things (out of fear they'll become slaves to it, somehow, or otherwise have to answer for their choices in more ways than the natural consequences of mistakes), but you create a mindset that says some external force has a legal right to tell people what they must do "for the good of the community" with their property.

That's a bit misleading. First of all, some external force does have a legal right to tell people what they must do for the good of the community with their property - actual property, not "intellectual property" - at any rate, I assume you live in a jurisdiction where people pay taxes, and very likely in one with a concept of eminent domain/compulsory purchase/etc.

Secondly, people's "agency over what they create" is already limited. The duration of copyright is limited (in theory, aha); the scope is limited (if you write a book, you can't stop libraries lending it to anyone, or have all existing copies returned; the doctrine of first sale exists in most places, for all the DRM crowd would like it not to; etc). Why should the present limitations on that scope happen to be "just right"?

Thirdly, once again, that control over what they create is entirely artificial, created _by_ the state. Why should it serve the individual's whim rather than the public interest?

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If they can say, "you can't shut that restaurant down," can they also say, "you can't stop offering that dessert?"

Well, indeed. If I have a government-imposed monopoly on offering a given dessert, and I won't offer it, I should lose the monopoly. That's sort of the point.

JaguarX

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2013, 03:37:13 PM »
That's a bit misleading. First of all, some external force does have a legal right to tell people what they must do for the good of the community with their property - actual property, not "intellectual property" - at any rate, I assume you live in a jurisdiction where people pay taxes, and very likely in one with a concept of eminent domain/compulsory purchase/etc.


And what point is NCSoft's COX one of those commidities that is open for the good of the public?

Taxes, I see. Yes. Provide funding for government.

Eminent domain- even that is not exactly cut and dry but usually it's for the good of the comminuty usually in economic commercial means. yes


But a game? Not tryign to be a smart butt, but please explain how one game, COX, as great of a game as it was, is on the same level of community neccessity or rather "for the good of the community" as taxes or eminent domain and etc? NCsoft do not even have a monopoly on the indusrty not even a government-imposed one.

thunderforce

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2013, 03:49:55 PM »
But a game? Not tryign to be a smart butt, but please explain how one game, COX, as great of a game as it was, is on the same level of community neccessity or rather "for the good of the community" as taxes or eminent domain and etc? NCsoft do not even have a monopoly on the indusrty not even a government-imposed one.

I thought you flounced out of the discussion with me? Never mind. Going back a bit, if you read the thread, you may remind yourself that the purpose of copyright was thought to be (for example, in terms of the American Constitutional framework for it) to promote the availability of creative works, which is a public good. Indeed, you will find that in many countries some tax money is quite explicitly spent (for example, via the UK's Arts Council) on creative works.

Another thing that may need to be explained to you is that of course I am not suggesting that NCsoft have a monopoly on the industry as a whole. However, the copyright holder of any creative work has a government-created monopoly on the supply of that particular work.

TonyV

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2013, 04:43:19 PM »
The restauranteur example is actually a pretty good one.

No, it's not.  Among other reasons, unless it's a really unusual restaurant, the guy who owns the restaurant didn't actively solicit its customers to create recipes that directly contributed to his financial success, and then once he decides to shut down, lock those recipes up forever so that the people who submitted them can't enjoy them again.  For another, his chefs aren't forbidden from ever preparing the recipes they've worked on in another restaurant.  (Recipes are actually a small subset of works specifically exempted from copyright law.)  There are a few other differences, but hopefully this is enough to show that the analogy is extremely poor, and it breaks down when applied to an MMORPG.  Like I said, there's no analogy that applies 100% to the situation, which is why I feel that it definitely needs to be addressed and copyright and patent law updated.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 04:50:29 PM by TonyV »

thunderforce

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2013, 05:21:19 PM »
No, it's not.  Among other reasons, unless it's a really unusual restaurant, the guy who owns the restaurant didn't actively solicit its customers to create recipes that directly contributed to his financial success, and then once he decides to shut down, lock those recipes up forever so that the people who submitted them can't enjoy them again.  For another, his chefs aren't forbidden from ever preparing the recipes they've worked on in another restaurant.

In all fairness, Segev is responding to a rather more wide-ranging proposal from me, which doesn't constrain itself to things with masses of user-generated content.

Segev

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2013, 06:45:25 PM »
If I have a government-imposed monopoly on offering a given dessert, and I won't offer it, I should lose the monopoly. That's sort of the point.
But you dno't. You have a monopoly on "thunderforce's Delectible Delight," which is a really popular form of chocolate pastry (for example). You can't stop me from selling "Segev's Succulent Samples," which are a form of chocolate pastry I have designed specifically to cater to the same tastes as your pastry.

The analogy, here, in case we're drifting too far to follow easily, is this: NCSoft must have the right to do with CoH as they wish, or you are condoning slavery or theft, by forcing them to continue to sell their "chocolate pastry" that they don't want to make, or to arrange for somebody else to do so. However, NCSoft has no right nor power to stop otehr people from making Superhero MMOs. In fact, there ARE other offerings. Right now, many think they don't taste as good as the original pastry they loved, so there are others in the works to try to better capture that delicious flavor and texture.

There is no sane reason to say, "NCSoft must be forced by law to allow others to have CoH." You can argue that it was a stupid business decision (and I think it was), or that it was on the shady side of ethical given the inability of players to use things they'd purchased without the service, but the most you've got room to argue for is the right to create private servers, at that point. And even then, NCSoft should not be under any obligation to build them for us. I think they're missing a big opportunity in not putting a skeleton crew on adapting their server tech for sale to others to use privately, at this point, as it would be a big cash cow (they could probably charge somewhere around 5 digits for each copy and there'd be people who'd pull together to buy one so they could run it).

But, again, it's their right to decide it's not worth it.

And it should be. People must be free to make bad business decisions as well as good ones, because often, the only person who can really judge it is the historian, many years down the road.

thunderforce

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2013, 06:50:52 PM »
NCSoft must have the right to do with CoH as they wish, or you are condoning slavery or theft, by forcing them to continue to sell their "chocolate pastry" that they don't want to make, or to arrange for somebody else to do so.

No, I'm not condoning "slavery or theft" by doing so, obviously, since no-one is being enslaved and nothing is being stolen.

Let me try to anticipate the next reply. No, it's not "stealing" City of X from NCsoft, for two reasons. First of all, it's not stealing for the same reason that it's not stealing when you pay tax. Secondly, their right to sit on City of X is already constrained - for example, by fair use, by the end of the copyright term (ha ha), etc. Would a reduction in the copyright term be "stealing"? No? Then another change to the circumstances in which copyright applies would not be.

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There is no sane reason to say, "NCSoft must be forced by law to allow others to have CoH."

I think in fact I've explained a perfectly good reason; that one should enjoy the protection of copyright when it serves the intended purpose of that protection, not when working directly against that purpose.

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People must be free to make bad business decisions as well as good ones, because often, the only person who can really judge it is the historian, many years down the road.

This is pure rhetoric. People must be free to do so within the constraints of what the law allows. That doesn't magically make what the law presently allows the best possible option.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 06:56:13 PM by thunderforce »

Golden Girl

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2013, 07:13:21 PM »
This is one of the reasons why creating the spiritual successor to CoH is so important - it's a symbol of resistance to the injustice of big business - a kind of digital offshoot of the Occupy movement, a sign that consumers aren't going to let corporations get away with unethical actions.
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adarict

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2013, 09:22:57 PM »
This is one of the reasons why creating the spiritual successor to CoH is so important - it's a symbol of resistance to the injustice of big business - a kind of digital offshoot of the Occupy movement, a sign that consumers aren't going to let corporations get away with unethical actions.

Really?  Please tell me you are being sarcastic, because that is a silly parallel to make.  A successor to CoH is a fantastic idea, but let's not make it into some great crusade.  It is for personal gratification of those of us who loved the game.  It is no different than all the other times that people have decided "Hey, I want another game like this game that I liked, but no one is making one!  Let's make our own".  The only real difference being, we have ended up with some pretty professional teams out of it rather than just a bunch of random people.

Sure, a successor IS a symbol.  It is a symbol that we liked the game a lot, and since we can't have what we wanted, we will carry on and make something to fill that void.  It isn't a symbol of resistance  to injustice. 

JaguarX

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2013, 09:45:19 PM »
This is one of the reasons why creating the spiritual successor to CoH is so important - it's a symbol of resistance to the injustice of big business - a kind of digital offshoot of the Occupy movement, a sign that consumers aren't going to let corporations get away with unethical actions.
exactly.

This can be the chance to put the actions to the words.

People say the yare tired on "unethical" treatment by major corporations, in this case game corporations. Well now, here is the chance to stand by those words. After these three games, there will be no more excuses about there being no choices, especially for super hero mmo.

JaguarX

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2013, 09:52:39 PM »
I thought you flounced out of the discussion with me? Never mind. Going back a bit, if you read the thread, you may remind yourself that the purpose of copyright was thought to be (for example, in terms of the American Constitutional framework for it) to promote the availability of creative works, which is a public good. Indeed, you will find that in many countries some tax money is quite explicitly spent (for example, via the UK's Arts Council) on creative works.

Another thing that may need to be explained to you is that of course I am not suggesting that NCsoft have a monopoly on the industry as a whole. However, the copyright holder of any creative work has a government-created monopoly on the supply of that particular work.

oh yeah, NOW you want to use that as an excuse. But even after I said that you decided to continue it in more replies so I assumed you insisted on continueing. So I obliged. If you wanted it to end you could have let it end right then and there but you chose not to. So dont try to use that now to dodge the question. It was your logic, just asking clarification. Kind of curious to see what "logic" you will use to explain your beliefs. Yet again, all you did was dodge it again. I think you know your statement that ncsoft should by law should be forced to either give up their property or allow someone else to have it is not very wise. Of else I'm sure you would have explained it by now. Along with your statement of it being like taxes and eminent domain. Do you think before you speak or you just throw stuff out there and see what sticks and hope no one asks about it and when they do you do everything to avoid the subject.

Segev

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2013, 10:25:05 PM »
Let's not try to paint ourselves with political brushes. I assure you that the Occupy movement is not something we want to be thought of as being like. We are not lawless, we are not violent, and we are not engaging in any sort of effort to threaten people and try to shout for violent action against Wall Street Executives, NCSoft, or anybody else, no matter how deserving we may think they are.

We are instead engaging in what makes capitalism and freedom of opportunity so great: we are seeing a vacuum left by an idiotic business decision that we disliked, and we are stepping up to fill it. The successor project(s) will, in fact, show the world what the right path is, but not because we're an angry bunch of people demanding hand-outs. Rather, it is because we recognized that nobody else would do it for us, so we have rolled up our sleeves, and we are making what we want. It is the height of the American dream and of all the principles I have been espousing in this and other threads.

We are good and honest people doing good and honest work. We are not letting anger and bitterness consume us; we are standing on our own two feet, learning what we need to learn, and making something grand happen for our sake and the sake of all who share our interests. And when we succeed, we will demonstrate ingenuity, innovation, and a business model that may well help pave the way forward for a more productive relationship between online businesses and their customers. A win for everybody!

Anger, vitriol, and demonization hurt only ourselves. We're building something; let's not compare ourselves to divisive groups that have yet to produce even as much as we've already achieved.

JaguarX

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2013, 10:34:18 PM »
Let's not try to paint ourselves with political brushes. I assure you that the Occupy movement is not something we want to be thought of as being like. We are not lawless, we are not violent, and we are not engaging in any sort of effort to threaten people and try to shout for violent action against Wall Street Executives, NCSoft, or anybody else, no matter how deserving we may think they are.

We are instead engaging in what makes capitalism and freedom of opportunity so great: we are seeing a vacuum left by an idiotic business decision that we disliked, and we are stepping up to fill it. The successor project(s) will, in fact, show the world what the right path is, but not because we're an angry bunch of people demanding hand-outs. Rather, it is because we recognized that nobody else would do it for us, so we have rolled up our sleeves, and we are making what we want. It is the height of the American dream and of all the principles I have been espousing in this and other threads.

We are good and honest people doing good and honest work. We are not letting anger and bitterness consume us; we are standing on our own two feet, learning what we need to learn, and making something grand happen for our sake and the sake of all who share our interests. And when we succeed, we will demonstrate ingenuity, innovation, and a business model that may well help pave the way forward for a more productive relationship between online businesses and their customers. A win for everybody!

Anger, vitriol, and demonization hurt only ourselves. We're building something; let's not compare ourselves to divisive groups that have yet to produce even as much as we've already achieved.


yup.

Golden Girl

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2013, 11:37:37 PM »
A successor to CoH is a fantastic idea, but let's not make it into some great crusade.

A damn fool idealistic crusade?

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It isn't a symbol of resistance  to injustice.

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downix

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2013, 12:53:56 AM »
Since when has that ever mattered to big business?
Properly from 1923-1981, when it actually was law for businesses to engage in ethical activities. The arguments of a few then-radical economists was that business must be amoral and unethical to prosper, which then became the mantra for a political movement, and we all saw what happened.

JaguarX

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2013, 02:06:12 AM »
Properly from 1923-1981, when it actually was law for businesses to engage in ethical activities. The arguments of a few then-radical economists was that business must be amoral and unethical to prosper, which then became the mantra for a political movement, and we all saw what happened.

well somewhat, while at the same time very true. During those times they usually at least tried to look ethical, even when they was not. Old saying- "The appearance of the law must be upheld, especially when it's being broken." -Assigned to Boss Tweed. (disputed if he actually said it or not.)

Now- "Law? Ha ha. What law?"

Menrva Channel

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2013, 04:25:53 AM »
Interesting article and I like some of the ideas behind it. I like Tony's even more. I wish there was a way to really... express how much the players become part of the game. I agree with Tony on the money stand point /and/ the time--we invest and pour in creative energy, literally putting tears and sweat into our characters. Isn't there a way that these characters who are ours, can still be ours? (And technically, since we pay them, aren't we like investors?) Now, I know I'm probably simplifying this big time, but... what /about/ us, the fans? A game is nothing without a community. 

downix

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2013, 05:31:07 AM »
well somewhat, while at the same time very true. During those times they usually at least tried to look ethical, even when they was not. Old saying- "The appearance of the law must be upheld, especially when it's being broken." -Assigned to Boss Tweed. (disputed if he actually said it or not.)

Now- "Law? Ha ha. What law?"
Of course there are companies who would skirt, if not break,the law if they thought they could get away with it. But those laws put shareholders on the hook if companies broke the law. Eliminating that ethical code, combined with the radical idea that the executives work for the shareholders and not the companies, it was a disaster waiting to happen.