Author Topic: Another Massively article on closing MMO's  (Read 14554 times)


Reaper

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2013, 06:49:23 PM »
Very good article.  I felt the same way about an author's work ending and a virtual world disappearing.  At least with an author's creation, you can go back and read the story to try and recreate the feelings and memories you had.  With a virtual world, it may never come back and be gone forever.

BTW, I just noticed Tony posted there, so I have to go back and read what he had to say.   ;)

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TonyV

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2013, 06:51:17 PM »
I'm really glad this article was written. Here are my thoughts on the issue.  Feel free to reply (or like!) to agree or disagree or offer more thoughts on what I said.

Quote from: TonyV
You make the point that you "do not agree with the use of art (games are art) without the owner's permission, no matter what."  Fair enough, but it's not that simple.  In spite of EULAs and Terms of Service, an MMORPG isn't only the creation of the developers.  There are a lot of players who pour hundreds or thousands of dollars into a game, as well as hundreds or thousands of hours into building the world into a place that directly financially benefits the developer and publisher.  And in many cases, especially in games like City of Heroes, for example, there is an extensive character creation and customization system and user-generated content that probably totals in the millions of man-hours of work.  This is artistic creativity that, when a game shuts down, typically is irrevocably lost.

I can't help but believe that it's more than a bit unethical for a publisher (NCsoft, in the case of City of Heroes) to shut down a game that is still profitable because, in their words,"...the franchise no longer fits within our long term goals for the company."  If using art without the owner's permission is bad, what does that say about a company that is willing to needlessly destroy the art and creativity that fans who have been paying them money have been producing, permanently locking it up to be inaccessible?

Does this mean that I think that companies should be forced to keep games going at a loss?  No, but I do think that there is a moral responsibility for publishers and developers to do everything possible to preserve these worlds and the immense amount of artistic and creative work that the fans have put into them.  I have two simple proposals that I believe would solve this issue satisfactorily:

1)  There needs to be either an MMORPG consortium of publishers and developers who jointly create a "retired game" clearinghouse, or else publishers and developers need to work with a third-party company such as Valve (via Steam), GOG.com, or someone else, to create a place where one can go to play unmaintained MMORPGs.  The clearinghouse company can charge one-time and/or monthly fees to continue playing their catalog of games, perhaps having a "free tier" of lower-population games that do not require many resources to run and a "premium tier" of higher-population games that require more server resources.  Business details on how to to run such an enterprise would need to be worked out, but I think that such an arrangement would be greatly beneficial to both customers and the company that runs the clearinghouse.

2)  For publishers and/or developers who do not want to participate in the above plan, before permanently shutting down servers, they should either modify either the client or server (which could be scaled down and possibly even sold as a one-time as-is purchase) to allow former players of the game to operate in a single-user or small-group mode, with the caveat that the software will no longer be supported.  This is not as onerous a task as it might appear to be.  At the Titan Network (a central gathering place for remaining City of Heroes players), we have developed a small utility based on reverse engineering research that allows the client to operate in single-user mode.  In this article it is mentioned that there is a way to run the Glitch Flash client.  While this may cost the companies some money to pull off, it would also send the clear message that if you invest your time, effort, and money into that company's games, you won't simply be kicked to the curb and abandoned, your investment wiped away, if the company decides later to change directions.

I wish I had more connections and resources to pursue this.  If anyone has constructive suggestions on how to make something like these proposals happen, I'm all ears.  Hopefully, at the very least, I've given Massively readers (including industry insiders) food for thought and serious consideration.

Reaper

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2013, 07:05:12 PM »

before permanently shutting down servers, they should either modify either the client or server (which could be scaled down and possibly even sold as a one-time as-is purchase) to allow former players of the game to operate in a single-user or small-group mode, with the caveat that the software will no longer be supported.


I agree with everything you said; this part especially.  Although I would miss the dozens of players I teamed with, I would at least like to be able to play alone or with a small group of people, regardless of continued support or updates from the publisher.  I'm glad someone has addressed this.
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JaguarX

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2013, 08:15:10 PM »
"before permanently shutting down servers, they should either modify either the client or server (which could be scaled down and possibly even sold as a one-time as-is purchase) to allow former players of the game to operate in a single-user or small-group mode, with the caveat that the software will no longer be supported."



This i how it should be and should of been.

I wonder who bright idea was it in the first place for the current system and what group of gamers was out of their mind to go along with it when it's was in it's infancy stage and could have kicked out right then and there?


Captain Electric

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2013, 08:41:04 PM »
I'm going to put this as succinctly as possible.

Imagine if every new book was destroyed as soon as its print runs were discontinued. One day, it graces your shelf, and the next day, you find it missing, with perhaps a small slip of paper--a notice of discontinuation. What would happen to our libraries, our used book stores, our personal libraries, our stored knowledge, history, our civilization's collective identity?

Now imagine if technology allowed this very thing to happen. Oh, wait. It does.

Contained within City of Heroes were many thousands of stories. Many of them moved me. Many of them held and addressed powerful moral and ethical dilemmas, or forced your characters to face them. Many of them were entertaining, many of them deserved criticism. Just like in your local library or used bookstore.

These publishers support and work to create the emergence of a world where stored knowledge and entertainment and the wisdom of the pen can all flit out of existence as soon as it's not benefiting them directly any longer; a world where all of our species best, most timeless qualities are made into a disposable product with shelf life.

Against these forces I will spare no quarter, no respect for their principles, which are insidious enough to be called evil.

eabrace

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2013, 08:47:26 PM »
Honestly, my opinions on the matter are pretty much in line with why I still buy CDs instead of just downloading MP3s.  I'm leery of spending money on anything I don't own my own hard copy of.
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JaguarX

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2013, 09:04:34 PM »
Against these forces I will spare no quarter, no respect for their principles, which are insidious enough to be called evil.

Sounds like we, the society, created a monster. You ready to go up against this monster? I'm with you all the way. May take a while, may take years, may take dozens more games to get shut down before people get really fed up and band together and say they are not goign to take it anymore and cant be lured in with a carrot that appeal to their game desires only to get yoyoed over and over again. "hey new shiny." "ah they shut down my game. Curse you!" "hey they brought it back, Yay. All praise corporation." "Aw they shut it down again, the evil pricks." "Hey they brought it back. They are angels." "Aw they shut it down. Spawns of satan!"

Eventually it have be an roar as a whole of , "Enough is enough and no matter what sugar plum ya dangle in front of us, unless you change policy, we aint going for it."



But yeah I'm a CD person (one to support the artist instead of free download) because it's there. The other day I took out a cd that I havent played since 1998. It worked still. Now where is my download from 1998? huh? where is my download?

Segev

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2013, 09:21:41 PM »
The best way to combat this trend is to demonstrate that an alternative model can and will prove profitable above and beyond the current flawed one.

Ultimately, what motivates the culture of a service industry more than anything else is demonstrated capacity to generate wealth. And that is done by providing a service that people want enough to pay more for it in aggregate than the alternatives can earn.

JaguarX

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2013, 09:36:48 PM »
The best way to combat this trend is to demonstrate that an alternative model can and will prove profitable above and beyond the current flawed one.

Ultimately, what motivates the culture of a service industry more than anything else is demonstrated capacity to generate wealth. And that is done by providing a service that people want enough to pay more for it in aggregate than the alternatives can earn.
exactly.

SkyStreak

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2013, 04:55:20 AM »
I am quite leery now of most cloud based 'services.'

I paid for a service and product from NCsoft, and while I still own the product, they discontinued the service.

What happens if Amazon discontinues the Kindle service?  Sure, you have whatever is on your devices, but what if you lose that data?


Segev

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2013, 12:51:27 PM »
Sure, you have whatever is on your devices, but what if you lose that data?
Eh, this is one of the "online data" arguments that bugs me on a logical level.

Borders went out of business. Sure, I still have the books I bought from them on my shelf, but what if I lose them?

If what you worry about is the data on your device being lost, then the cloud service is just a plus, as it lets you recover it (in theory). Losing the cloud service only puts your eBooks in the same condition-of-risk as your physical books: you have them as long as you don't lose them somehow.

ROBOKiTTY

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2013, 03:26:56 PM »
The difference is books are still demonstrably much more durable than digital devices. The only sensible way to secure digital data is redundancy, and sometimes that isn't possible with data loaded down with vendor lock-in and DRM.

My view on software copyright has always been that there needs to be an independent entity to which all software makers must supply their source code in order to be eligible for copyright protection. Software-based services must supply a new version of their source code every six months. This source code database would then be made accessible to universities and schools. Imagine the massive benefits this would bring.

I also disagree with the article writer's absolutist stance on owner rights. We need to step back and look at the big picture. Intellectual property rights exist for the purpose of promoting science and the arts. IP that is locked away, almost always for business reasons, promotes nothing but corporate hoarding. And I've never seen artists and game developers who are happy about their creations being shut down by their bosses.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 03:45:33 PM by ROBOKiTTY »
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Segev

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2013, 04:20:15 PM »
This is going to sound harsher than I mean it to, for which I apologize in advance.

If artists are going to be upset that their art is sealed away by their bosses, then they should probably be their own bosses. IP is "Intellectual Property." If you believe that the artist should be the sole arbiter of whether it's available and how, I am not necessarily against you. However, in that case, the artist can't really get paid to produce it.

As well say that mechanics are being treated unfairly when a car owner has them fix up his car and then puts it in his private garage.

Artists who are paid to produce art for their bosses are creating a product. They are creating IP that is owned by the person who paid for it.


I suspect you'd be just as upset if Matt Miller had personally produced everything in CoH, and then he decided to shut it down. Or if Micheal Jackson, on his death bed, demanded publicly that all copies of his work be destroyed, that it might die permanently with him.

IP laws exist to allow "intellectual" works - works of art and creativity - to be assigned value in a meaningful way, so that those who create it can use it to support themselves and be encouraged by the desire of others to expend their resources on supporting them to continue to produce more. They exist to transform "ideas" in the form of their execution into products which can be bought, sold, and owned.

It may well be that "artists' bosses" are all evil corrupt monsters who abuse them like slaves, but if so, that's just a sign that artists are, for whatever reason, willing to put up with that or are unable to achieve greater reward for the value they produce. I'm not saying laws as written are perfect, but I am saying that it is very dangerous to the actual interests of artists to muck about with laws naively. Good intentions pave hell. Be very careful to consider what artists are paid for that they lose control of IP under current law, and whether they could find work doing that sort of creative production under whatever system you propose.

I'm fond of moving as much towards direct-marketing of art and the like as possible; it does mean there are fewer middle men taking a cut of what people will pay artists for. However, there are still many things production and publication companies do: marketing, venues, resource acquisition and management... all of these things are expensive and can give new artists a huge leg up. The exploitation that infamously occurs (real or fictional; I honestly don't know) is not something laws prohibiting IP transfer would fix. It would just change the shape of it, and make it harder for naive and inexperienced artists to "break in" to anything because they would know less about how to sell their product.

JaguarX

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2013, 04:35:41 PM »
This is going to sound harsher than I mean it to, for which I apologize in advance.

If artists are going to be upset that their art is sealed away by their bosses, then they should probably be their own bosses. IP is "Intellectual Property." If you believe that the artist should be the sole arbiter of whether it's available and how, I am not necessarily against you. However, in that case, the artist can't really get paid to produce it.

As well say that mechanics are being treated unfairly when a car owner has them fix up his car and then puts it in his private garage.

Artists who are paid to produce art for their bosses are creating a product. They are creating IP that is owned by the person who paid for it.


I suspect you'd be just as upset if Matt Miller had personally produced everything in CoH, and then he decided to shut it down. Or if Micheal Jackson, on his death bed, demanded publicly that all copies of his work be destroyed, that it might die permanently with him.

IP laws exist to allow "intellectual" works - works of art and creativity - to be assigned value in a meaningful way, so that those who create it can use it to support themselves and be encouraged by the desire of others to expend their resources on supporting them to continue to produce more. They exist to transform "ideas" in the form of their execution into products which can be bought, sold, and owned.

It may well be that "artists' bosses" are all evil corrupt monsters who abuse them like slaves, but if so, that's just a sign that artists are, for whatever reason, willing to put up with that or are unable to achieve greater reward for the value they produce. I'm not saying laws as written are perfect, but I am saying that it is very dangerous to the actual interests of artists to muck about with laws naively. Good intentions pave hell. Be very careful to consider what artists are paid for that they lose control of IP under current law, and whether they could find work doing that sort of creative production under whatever system you propose.

I'm fond of moving as much towards direct-marketing of art and the like as possible; it does mean there are fewer middle men taking a cut of what people will pay artists for. However, there are still many things production and publication companies do: marketing, venues, resource acquisition and management... all of these things are expensive and can give new artists a huge leg up. The exploitation that infamously occurs (real or fictional; I honestly don't know) is not something laws prohibiting IP transfer would fix. It would just change the shape of it, and make it harder for naive and inexperienced artists to "break in" to anything because they would know less about how to sell their product.

basically this.

I was in middle of writing a reply and your reply rendered it moot. Thanks alot :P.


Segev

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2013, 05:32:43 PM »
basically this.

I was in middle of writing a reply and your reply rendered it moot. Thanks alot :P.
Heh, sorry. Glad to help voice a shared view, though! :)

CatMan

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2013, 04:58:45 AM »
Ironically, a good number of public libraries are falling into the popular trap.   There are lot of popular books you will find in a local library, but some of the classics, rarer books, and less popular books, are harder to find. 

CoH sort of went that way.  It was there, supported itself, but was not wildly popular according to the standards of NCSoft.  So it was cut off and discarded.   The worst part is that it was boxed and put into a very dark, dank, corner as opposed to being resold. 

JaguarX

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2013, 05:03:58 AM »
Ironically, a good number of public libraries are falling into the popular trap.   There are lot of popular books you will find in a local library, but some of the classics, rarer books, and less popular books, are harder to find. 

CoH sort of went that way.  It was there, supported itself, but was not wildly popular according to the standards of NCSoft.  So it was cut off and discarded.   The worst part is that it was boxed and put into a very dark, dank, corner as opposed to being resold.
yeah.

dwturducken

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2013, 12:14:12 AM »
Ironically, a good number of public libraries are falling into the popular trap.   There are lot of popular books you will find in a local library, but some of the classics, rarer books, and less popular books, are harder to find.   

My mother is manager of one of the branch libraries, here, so she has final responsibility for the ordering for her branch. I was over at her house one night while she was watching Defiance, and we got to talking about the game that goes with the series. She says, "Oh, we just got that in! Should I check it out for you?"

Now, I avoid buying any kind of MMO second hand(and, the place buying them should really know better), but I can't imagine a library having a copy of one available for checkout being viable for more than one person, who just got it for free, if it's B2P.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Sin Stalker

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Re: Another Massively article on closing MMO's
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2013, 09:38:18 AM »
I bought the game. I paid $50 for CoH. I own a part of the game and therefore have a right to play it just like I do other games I buy, whether it be PC or console.

I think its a crime for NCsoft to shut down their servers and not allow private servers to come about. Its akin to theft.