Author Topic: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?  (Read 14322 times)

Ampithere

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2013, 03:26:05 AM »
Tony, your response here seems to contradict your posts in the SEGS thread.

The super secret emulation project seems to be targeted at emulating a game world that does not include any NCSoft IP. That's not finding a way to use our game again. That's pretending to find a way to use our game again.

If you could please clarify it would be comforting to know whether or not I've misunderstood your previous statements.
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Victoria Victrix

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2013, 03:33:03 AM »
In order to be 100% legal, as has been explained over on the main Titan boards, any "emulator" (more correctly, a "replacement server protocol") would have to include no City of Heroes content.  It would merely happen to allow you to use the client content you already have on your own home machine.  It would also have to allow you to play some other content that you could download to your machine that would have nothing whatsoever to do with City of Heroes.

There is legal precedent and won court cases that establish that creating a different protocol to interface with existing software to allow the owner of that software to use it is 100% legal (and the case was won against Microsoft, so the 10000 lb gorilla has been faced).
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

downix

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2013, 03:36:37 AM »
In order to be 100% legal, as has been explained over on the main Titan boards, any "emulator" (more correctly, a "replacement server protocol") would have to include no City of Heroes content.  It would merely happen to allow you to use the client content you already have on your own home machine.  It would also have to allow you to play some other content that you could download to your machine that would have nothing whatsoever to do with City of Heroes.

There is legal precedent and won court cases that establish that creating a different protocol to interface with existing software to allow the owner of that software to use it is 100% legal (and the case was won against Microsoft, so the 10000 lb gorilla has been faced).
*coughs* saved AE arcs...

If anybody recalled, there was an effort afoot to replace the hero-side starting arcs with new, updated ones, all created in AE. I know I still have those.

Kistulot

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2013, 06:27:39 AM »
Is it weird that when the servers were being shut down one of the things I missed the most were the old 1-5 or so magic origin starter arc?
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Triplash

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2013, 10:46:59 AM »
Is it weird that when the servers were being shut down one of the things I missed the most were the old 1-5 or so magic origin starter arc?

I always wished those starter arcs had been Ouro'd instead of just wiped. I never had a problem with them either.

Well... I had a problem with having to run through a +5 level area to get to a mission, and getting purple-ganked for my troubles. It's a big part of why I became a street sweeper. But I had no problem with the missions. Them I liked fine. :)

Illusionss

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2013, 03:47:30 PM »
Outright theft isn't a legal technicallity.

I agree! When will NCIdiocracy be compensating me for my main, who as I discussed elsewhere bears a value of at least $8800+? I had twenty-three level 50s including him, you know, and that does not count everyone else I was leveling up.

You want to talk outright theft, we can start right there.

Rotten Luck

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2013, 04:00:05 PM »
Then you add in those that payed money to buy a DISK.  That's OWNED content that now can't be used.  Could be considered Free use laws here, after all people payed for what on those disks it's their property. 
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Victoria Victrix

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2013, 11:24:34 PM »
It's well worth requoting this

Quote
First, the EULA doesn't apply any more. Under the EULA, NCSoft's sole legal remedy for violations was kicking you off the service and cancelling your account. That's moot now.

NCSoft still has a copyright in all the source code (moot, because nobody outside of NCSoft has any of it), the compiled client, and all the files that were included with that, most importantly all the art and music assets. If you redistribute the client, then you could be violating their copyright (could because there are a bunch of steps they'd have to go through in court to demonstrate that it was a violation, and there are some affirmative defenses that could be raised). Under the DMCA they could get a service provider (in a jurisdiction that's covered) to take down the client files you were sharing, basically just by alleging a violation... but that's not the same as proving a violation and again there are some defenses against that. Still, they'd be on pretty solid legal footing if they bothered to pursue it.

NCSoft does not have any right to prevent anyone from providing products that are interoperable with their client code, or to prevent reverse engineering their code in order to provide interoperability. This ranges from things like Vidiot Maps to Sentinel+ to a hypothetical server that would respond to messages from the client as if it were the CoX server engine. This is pretty much settled case-law, and there's a particular carve-out in the DMCA specifically to permit reverse engineering. NCSoft forbade it in the EULA (a common tactic to try to skate around the law permitting reverse engineering is to claim that it's nonetheless forbidden by a contract that the company and the reverse engineer have entered into), but the EULA is now moot.

NCSoft still has a trademark in City of Heroes and various names and images (not all of them, but specific ones that served to identify and promote the brand), but that limits what a hypothetical after-market interoperable server could be called and what images it could use to promote itself so as not to cause confusion in the marketplace over whether it's an official product; it does not actually prevent mentioning the trademark for purposes of comparison (10% less phosphates than Tide) or compatibility (usable with iPhone). And that assumes that somebody actually tries to market a product that works with the old City of Heroes clients...which seems unlikely
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Ampithere

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2013, 01:41:06 PM »
It's well worth requoting this

So...what I'm getting is that you remove States (already done for us by the time of i24) and a handful of other characters and you're in the clear? So I could still fight against 5th Column and Devouring Earth and Rikti (probably not Arachnos) on a legal server?

If that's the case then it's awesome. My characters were too tightly tied to the game lore to feel the same if the lore isn't there. Even if they use the same exact build and costume, it just wouldn't feel right.
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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2013, 02:52:27 PM »
So...what I'm getting is that you remove States (already done for us by the time of i24) and a handful of other characters and you're in the clear? So I could still fight against 5th Column and Devouring Earth and Rikti (probably not Arachnos) on a legal server?

If that's the case then it's awesome. My characters were too tightly tied to the game lore to feel the same if the lore isn't there. Even if they use the same exact build and costume, it just wouldn't feel right.

Asking for specifics from a collection of vagaries will just lead to a broken heart.  The only 100% nugget of truth to pull from this thread is not to delete your client.  Everything else is still up in the air.  As soon as something can be said, it will be said.

It sucks to wait, but you're not alone.  We're all waiting too.
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Harpospoke

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2013, 08:05:17 AM »
Asking for specifics from a collection of vagaries will just lead to a broken heart.  The only 100% nugget of truth to pull from this thread is not to delete your client.  Everything else is still up in the air.  As soon as something can be said, it will be said.

It sucks to wait, but you're not alone.  We're all waiting too.
I doubt I could bear to delete CoH from my hard drive....even if I knew there was no reason to keep it.    :(

Helyom

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2013, 09:25:08 AM »
I'm very drepressed without  to play this game. There is any legal way to force NCSOFT to  sell or share it?

MindBlender

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2013, 09:42:55 AM »
Sadly the Eula states that they own it all.  We cant force them to sell (although with the pressure you would think we could).  We keep the pressure on and find a potential buyer, then we might have our "win".  I am also really interested in the 2 projects being worked on by the lovely folks on the forums here.  It may not BE CoH, but it will gather our community back  ;D
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Kistulot

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2013, 11:36:30 AM »
Sadly the Eula states that they own it all . . .

EULAs are not legally binding.
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MindBlender

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2013, 12:02:35 PM »
True, but if you rent a car and like it...you cant keep it unless you buy it AND they are willing to sell it to you. 
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Illusionss

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2013, 02:51:13 PM »
The EULA is over. The worst penalty in the EULA is them closing your account. All of our accounts are closed now.

People act like that EULA is akin to Moses strolling down from the Mount with two stone tablets in tow. "Behold, a list of rules we must obey forever!" Um, no. NCSOft closed our accounts and me and them are quits.

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2013, 03:23:16 PM »
So...what I'm getting is that you remove States (already done for us by the time of i24) and a handful of other characters and you're in the clear? So I could still fight against 5th Column and Devouring Earth and Rikti (probably not Arachnos) on a legal server?
Debatable. Worst case, you'd have to replace those organizations with similar analogues. Think like this:
"No sir, the Iron Cross Kommando is not the same as 5th Column. They may both be villainous Nazis utilising super-soldiers and psychic powers, but their appearances and backstories are entirely distinct from each other. Consequently, no IP violation relating to the villain group that was part of the City of Heroes franchise has occurred."
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The end occurred pretty much as we predicted: all servers redlining until midnight... and then no servers to go around.

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TonyV

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2013, 03:36:18 PM »
So...what I'm getting is that you remove States (already done for us by the time of i24) and a handful of other characters and you're in the clear? So I could still fight against 5th Column and Devouring Earth and Rikti (probably not Arachnos) on a legal server?

No.  Any server that uses any of City of Heroes's assets that aren't public domain or otherwise expressly excluded from copyright law (for example, game mechanics) would be infringing on their intellectual property (IP).  This includes signature characters (Statesman, Positron, etc.), enemy and ally groups (those your mentioned), place names ("Atlas Park", "Talos Island", etc.), and art assets (images of any of the previously mentioned, plus things like the music scores).  You may be able to get away with one or two incidental infringements ("But there's a Perez Park in Wyoming!"), but worst-case scenario, if it goes to court, the standard will be: Does this infringement lead average people to think about City of Heroes?  If yes, then it's over the line.

That's not to say that no one will ever create a server that replicates those things, but if they do, it would almost assuredly have to be kept a secret since if it became publicly known or NCsoft otherwise found out about it they could legally have it shut down without too much fuss or muss.  Also, copyright laws in other countries are a bit more lax, so it may be possible to get away with running one somewhere else, but of course then, you face the issue of bandwidth and latency typically being slower.  It would also depend on how willing and able the government of wherever it's being hosted is to go after infringers.  In the U.S. and most of its close allies, most service providers are of the "shut down, ask questions later" mindset that isn't amenable to people breaking copyright law.

That's not to say that NCsoft will fight back, of course.  Some have speculated here that NCsoft wouldn't bother.  My personal belief is that it depends.  If NCsoft honestly has the intention to never develop anything CoH-related again, they may very well just let it go.  However, I honestly think that's unlikely for a couple of reasons.  First, the hoops they'd have to jump through to get an infringing server shut down are really minor, especially if it's in the U.S.  All they'd have to do is send a letter to the provider, and unless the person fights back (which they'd have no legal standing to do), they're done.  Also, an intention to never develop anything CoH-related is much different from a lack of intention to develop anything CoH-related, the latter of which I believe is most likely.  If NCsoft merely has no plans now but want to leave the door open just in case, they might crack down on it just to protect their future interests--and businesses almost always want to leave as many doors open for future development as possible.

On the other hand, if someone runs a compatible server that doesn't infringe on NCsoft's copyright, then NCsoft really doesn't have any recourse.  That's where most emulated servers go wrong--they don't just emulate the game mechanics, they emulate the IP as well.  When you read about a server emu project being shut down, note that they're not done so because it's a reverse-engineered effort that's compatible with the game client, it's shut down because it includes the IP from the original game.  They're shut down for infringement.

I mean, they could try going after someone who does so, but as VV mentioned (and I have, in the past!), there's established case law that creating compatible server software and/or reverse engineering software to allow people to use the software they legally obtained is legal.  If someone were to fight back--and now they'd have legal standing to--then it could cost NCsoft a lot of time and money, plus the embarrassment of losing a lawsuit that sets a pretty clear (and very unfriendly to the industry) precedent.  Even if they could win, for their own sake, the risk is such that I don't think they'd pursue it because they'd have very little to gain and everything to lose.  The story might be a lot different and the risk worth taking if someone were reverse engineering the Guild Wars 2 or Blade and Soul server, something that would really hurt them if it got out.

But you (and everyone else) really have to get out of this mindset that reverse engineering the server is tied to the content that is created for such a reverse engineered server.  From what I know about the original game, all of the content was contained in spreadsheets and scripts that weren't baked into the system.  From what I know about the non-SEGS reverse engineering effort, the same will hold true.  Yes, content could be created that duplicates what was in City of Heroes before.  But it could also be created to infringe, for example, Marvel's IP by including the X-Men, or DC's IP by including the Justice League, or anyone else's, in which case the person or people running the server would be just as much at risk from those companies as someone who includes City of Heroes IP would be from NCsoft.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 03:45:21 PM by TonyV »

dwturducken

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2013, 04:42:57 PM »
People act like that EULA is akin to Moses strolling down from the Mount with two stone tablets in tow. "Behold, a list of rules we must obey forever!"

To be honest, I never really took the one about "coveting" seriously. I mean "covet" is a silly enough word, but I was outright giggling after the word "ass."
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Joshex

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Re: sooooo,i need answers"will we ever play coh/cov again?
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2013, 04:46:33 PM »
No.  Any server that uses any of City of Heroes's assets that aren't public domain or otherwise expressly excluded from copyright law (for example, game mechanics) would be infringing on their intellectual property (IP).  This includes signature characters (Statesman, Positron, etc.), enemy and ally groups (those your mentioned), place names ("Atlas Park", "Talos Island", etc.), and art assets (images of any of the previously mentioned, plus things like the music scores).  You may be able to get away with one or two incidental infringements ("But there's a Perez Park in Wyoming!"), but worst-case scenario, if it goes to court, the standard will be: Does this infringement lead average people to think about City of Heroes?  If yes, then it's over the line.

That's not to say that no one will ever create a server that replicates those things, but if they do, it would almost assuredly have to be kept a secret since if it became publicly known or NCsoft otherwise found out about it they could legally have it shut down without too much fuss or muss.  Also, copyright laws in other countries are a bit more lax, so it may be possible to get away with running one somewhere else, but of course then, you face the issue of bandwidth and latency typically being slower.  It would also depend on how willing and able the government of wherever it's being hosted is to go after infringers.  In the U.S. and most of its close allies, most service providers are of the "shut down, ask questions later" mindset that isn't amenable to people breaking copyright law.

That's not to say that NCsoft will fight back, of course.  Some have speculated here that NCsoft wouldn't bother.  My personal belief is that it depends.  If NCsoft honestly has the intention to never develop anything CoH-related again, they may very well just let it go.  However, I honestly think that's unlikely for a couple of reasons.  First, the hoops they'd have to jump through to get an infringing server shut down are really minor, especially if it's in the U.S.  All they'd have to do is send a letter to the provider, and unless the person fights back (which they'd have no legal standing to do), they're done.  Also, an intention to never develop anything CoH-related is much different from a lack of intention to develop anything CoH-related, the latter of which I believe is most likely.  If NCsoft merely has no plans now but want to leave the door open just in case, they might crack down on it just to protect their future interests--and businesses almost always want to leave as many doors open for future development as possible.

On the other hand, if someone runs a compatible server that doesn't infringe on NCsoft's copyright, then NCsoft really doesn't have any recourse.  That's where most emulated servers go wrong--they don't just emulate the game mechanics, they emulate the IP as well.  When you read about a server emu project being shut down, note that they're not done so because it's a reverse-engineered effort that's compatible with the game client, it's shut down because it includes the IP from the original game.  They're shut down for infringement.

I mean, they could try going after someone who does so, but as VV mentioned (and I have, in the past!), there's established case law that creating compatible server software and/or reverse engineering software to allow people to use the software they legally obtained is legal.  If someone were to fight back--and now they'd have legal standing to--then it could cost NCsoft a lot of time and money, plus the embarrassment of losing a lawsuit that sets a pretty clear (and very unfriendly to the industry) precedent.  Even if they could win, for their own sake, the risk is such that I don't think they'd pursue it because they'd have very little to gain and everything to lose.  The story might be a lot different and the risk worth taking if someone were reverse engineering the Guild Wars 2 or Blade and Soul server, something that would really hurt them if it got out.

But you (and everyone else) really have to get out of this mindset that reverse engineering the server is tied to the content that is created for such a reverse engineered server.  From what I know about the original game, all of the content was contained in spreadsheets and scripts that weren't baked into the system.  From what I know about the non-SEGS reverse engineering effort, the same will hold true.  Yes, content could be created that duplicates what was in City of Heroes before.  But it could also be created to infringe, for example, Marvel's IP by including the X-Men, or DC's IP by including the Justice League, or anyone else's, in which case the person or people running the server would be just as much at risk from those companies as someone who includes City of Heroes IP would be from NCsoft.

everyone in this thread is thinking too linear, while linearity is a good way to describe the traditional game server set-up, we can develop a non-linear server.

For Example, the most obvious way to make a City of Heroes Server without infringing on copy rights would be to host all the actual stories and graphic content on each users computer (very much similar to how it is now) then merely use the server for raw save data, like character location, inventory listings ETC. of coarse the server also has to house a Battle calculator, so when you fight something all users battling that enemy send thier attack info to the server to be calculated so that all users in that battle recieve the same visual outcome.

bassically just make the server a code only place, and all the IP related stuff can reside on our individual computers.

sorta like P2P gaming but with a central server for calculations and records (and event triggers)

done, no problems. infact I think this could be a very good course of action if we can't get anyone to buy it.

funding; when there is a central server or even more than 1 especially, you need to concern about funding for the project.

now there are a number of ways to achieve this gathering of money from users (legally);

1: the shop method + hard ingame content with great rewards that encorages people to upgrade with special shop-bought (temporary?) character enhancement or items that give you a chance to acquire special character enhancement items. (the aeria games method)

2: the scammer method; you are not paying to play the game (as that would be non-legal usage of the content), you are paying to access a battle simulator, aka you can play the game without paying but all your attacks are nullified against enemies unless you pay a subscription fee. (or any other middle-man grounds, for example you are paying for our staff to develop new content)

there you are. so if we can reverse engineer the game and buy a server we could follow the above and legally run it without infringement.

To be honest, I never really took the one about "coveting" seriously. I mean "covet" is a silly enough word, but I was outright giggling after the word "ass."



if you weren't joking ass is referring to a donkey, one man in the old days might covet the fact that another man has more donkeys to move farm equipment and carry crops back to the villa.

coveting what another man has is idolatry because you are placing whatever it is you don't have on a high pedistal in your mind. that in course is worship. the joke here is if you covet another mans ass you are worshiping another man's ass.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 05:06:19 PM by Joshex »
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