Community-Built COH Style MMORPG

[Blue Pulsar]

I thought of a few stories in comics where a character could be consider having a Freeform AT.  Spawn thought a magic based unholy spawn of hell has used Guns.

Batman gained use of a Yellow Ring and in a silver age comic even had flight.  Not to mention becoming a Vampire in one of the Cartoons.  Game wise we can call these temp powers for he didn't keep them.

Superman also had a reroll into the electric Blue/red superman.  Thought we can argue that those are more rerolling then an Freeform AT.

Spiderman with the powers of a spider uses Gadgets.  His web slingers are tech base and are the spider tracers.  In the cartoon Ultimate Spiderman he had a spiderbike.  I think we can class Spiderman as a Free form primary Insect/spider Scrapper with Gadget powers mixed in.

Spiderman's webs were largely used as a travel power. Yeah, they were used offensively in fights, but not nearly as much as his fists. And in some versions (not just the first 3 movies), they were not gadgets, but part of him. Sure, he can shoot short range projectiles, but so can spine scrapps. He can even use it to hold immobilize an opponent like a DM's tendrils.

And Superman Red/Blue were technically two completely different entities from Superman. And while the electric blast they had replaced the heat vision, they retained their other powers. So, not too different from a tank or brute getting "Laser beam eyes." Not to mention, Super Strength has a boulder throw, Hurl.

And the thing that makes Batman so great is the fact that he has EVERY FREAKING TEMP POWER EVER. lol, And none in a limited supply.

However, Spawn... I will give you that. He can go invis, he can shapeshift, he can grapple (and technically mezz) with chains that shoot out nearly 50 yards, he has tons of guns that spawn from his suit, he's tough as hell-nearly undamageable, and is an all around beast. He is the one hero that really spans a LOT of hero ATs.

All in all, through a few in-set powers, epic power pools, patrons power pools, and temps, ranged and melee toons had a few things to choose from to cross over, but their roles were clearly defined, as are most in comic books. Cryptic did their research when they made the game.

[downix]

I mean, if you guys have already decided on that and have abandoned the 10(12{14}) seperate ATs, then I guess it's just how it's going to be with TPP. I guess I just liked CoX the way it was.

But, I guess my only question is "why?" and for two reasons. (I ask why lot.) 1: If everyone on here that wants to see TF:HM, HaV, TPP, and/or SEGs work out essentially wants get some semblance of our home back, why would you change such a basic thing? I mean, I almost find it a bit insulting. "We had the best game ever! Help us make a new game that will kinda look like it, but different!" And 2: If you start with a base "melee" AT and then can/have to make it into what you want by building it a certain way, then why not just stick with 4 basic melee toons and take the guess work out?

Forgive me. It is not my intent to be expressly argumentative. I am really asking those questions out of pure curiosity.

We haven't abandoned the AT's, we reorganized them. The problem we found with CoH's AT design was over-complexity, you had three AT's which, mechanically, were the same, Melee/Defense. But by being different AT's, the coding for each was more complex. Your Brute Energy Melee was not the same as the Scrappers, the Tankers, nor the Stalkers. Each one effectively had a unique powerset, all with the same name. Inefficient design, stemming from the original CoH design. Through Powerset proliferation they were addressing that issue, but it was an ugly business behind the scenes.

Rather than deal with the headaches of trying to balance multiple versions of the same power, our model shifted to ways to balance the AT's themselves, internally. You still have your Fury-building melee fighter, your critical strike fighter, your alpha-strike-from-hide fighter, but instead of being three different "AT's" they're all structured under the same base mechanics, and then given focus to optimize them for their individual roles. By doing this, however, it opened up the AT design for more flexibility. We can add roles with greater ease than CoH could. We can add new powersets as well with greater ease. The problem of powerset proliferation is neatly side-stepped.

Your Brute is not gone, neither is your Scrapper nor Stalker. In fact, now you will be able to express them with more fine-tuning to your specific playstyle. While the original CoH design worked, it was inelegant, and ultimately it could not continue much further into the future. There was only so far you could push it before you simply ran out of powersets. This approach, while it may seem like we're abandoning the design, is the best solution we found to keep the classic archetypes without falling into the same trap CoH did.

[Golden Girl]

There was only so far you could push it before you simply ran out of powersets.

Why?

[Perfidus]

Sounds dangerously close to bashing CoH while trying to put over your as of yet nearly completely unmade project. Probably not the best way to win over future players around these parts.

[downix]

Why?

Address range. If you want your game to be playable on anything short of a T3 line, you need to keep your address range within a very limited scope. CoH could add up to about 200 powersets in total I was told before it simply ran out of room in the address range. In effect, the client couldn't find them. Think of it like a city street, with addresses along the side. You can only build so many houses before you simply hit the end of the street, no more addresses to hand out. You have a street with 200 mailboxes, and you tell someone to go to the 450'th mailbox, they'll run out of street.

While in theory you could have a larger range, you would then be adding in latency, and hurting your clients performance. The more you have to search through, the longer it takes. And as this is an MMO, this all has to go over the network, which already introduces latency into the equation. You can only have so many powersets before your game will play horribly. The easiest solution for us was to not require having multiple versions of the same set due to AT. It's not the only solution, of course, just the one we chose. Knowing Hero Engine, you'll have to implement a different solution to ours.

While it is easy to go "just add more" that becomes feature creep. You add 5% more powerset, then 8% more costume slot, then 6% more animation.... you've added a sizable chunk more data being streamed between client and server. The more data, the slower it will go. Having worked with massive databases for the healthcare industry, when information had to be at your fingertips in a moments notice, every byte you can shed can often times be the difference between rapid response, and lag-city.

[downix]

Sounds dangerously close to bashing CoH while trying to put over your as of yet nearly completely unmade project. Probably not the best way to win over future players around these parts.

I'm not trying to bash anything here, especially not CoH. I'm pointing out how CoH was designed. I could go into the why,  and honestly the why makes complete sense once you look at the games history.

The origin of the issue stems all the way back to the original City of Heroes design. There *were* no Archetypes, it was select a primary, select a secondary, and go. The original idea had no intention of powerset proliferation, it was absolutely not needed as one could select any powerset. The Archetype system was bolted on top of this original freeflow power design. To make it work, they needed to "double up" powers which were shared, like invul for both tankers and scrappers. Then came along CoV, with more AT's into the mix, all with their own, unique powersets. There was no need to concern themselves with overlap in AT, nor with powerset mapping space because each AT had unique powers. Over the years, however, things changed, the lines blurred, and eventually they were completely integrated, and powerset proliferation became the de-facto standard. This is part of why the Paragon team was pushing for a CoH2 you realize, so they could design whole systems over. One of the things would be to avoid this issue that would eventually rear its ugly head by designing it with that in mind from the beginning.

When designing, I have to keep this in mind, in order to avoid it rearing its head for us as well. We are learning the lessons of their design, where they did things right (and man, they did a lot of things right) and where there were issues (very short list). That is the wise course, yes, to avoid the pitfalls?

I don't think a lot of us realize how much of CoH's success was due to accidents, not purposeful design. They got it to work, but many times the final form did not even resemble the original idea. But the roots, that original design, remained with CoH right up to the end. An opportunity to redesign the back-end, to closer match the final design, would allow for future growth that the original could not. This is not a critique of CoH, it is acknowledgement of the labor and effort, the blood, sweat and tears the devs put into it over the years. Knowing the challenges, knowing the problems, we can learn from the devs and I hope keep us moving forward.

This does tie back to the "why not just clone it" argument. This is one of those areas where cloning would be problematic. Even the dev's did not know how every system worked (I heard nightmare stories about the base builder) due to the nature of these kinds of projects. People came in, designed a system, moved on, not leaving decent documentation. To clone it, when even those who worked on the code directly didn't know how everything worked, would be neigh impossible. Macro systems, sure, but it would never work *right*, never get the same flair or odd behavior. And ultimately, it was that odd behavior which makes City of Heroes uniquely City of Heroes.

[Nebularian]

... Over the years, however, things changed, the lines blurred, and eventually they were completely integrated, and powerset proliferation became the de-facto standard. This is part of why the Paragon team was pushing for a CoH2 you realize, so they could design whole systems over. One of the things would be to avoid this issue that would eventually rear its ugly head by designing it with that in mind from the beginning. ...

...This is not a critique of CoH, it is acknowledgement of the labor and effort, the blood, sweat and tears the devs put into it over the years. Knowing the challenges, knowing the problems, we can learn from the devs and I hope keep us moving forward.

.....And ultimately, it was that odd behavior which makes City of Heroes uniquely City of Heroes.

And herein, I do believe, is the major bone of contention between some of the community and Plan Z.

No, I do not believe that anyone on either team wishes to Dis COH....if they did, they wouldn't be here in the first place.

The difference is...they have moved into Dev mode....before the community is ready.   You see....I believe the community is still smarting...still hurt and angry over the closing of COH.   And we still have people that are gung ho with Project Hail Mary!...To Find some way to get our game back.  Will they succeed?  I hope so (especially after seeing what Plan Z is considering) but only time will tell.

I think, to a degree, the view of the people on the Plan Z projects changed when they began to actively work on it.

We see a lot of talk about how much this or that will change....because COH was outdated or, as you said, because COH was patched together over the years....yadayadayada...My suggestion....stop talking about that....at least in the public forums...I would keep most of the "how things" are going to work discussion on the MWM or HaV hidden boards. (uh...I am assuming that HaV has them....I know MwM changed several of their forum boards to hidden from the public.)

You see...talk like that raises red flags. Especially in a community that is not yet ready to start looking at a COH2 until they get the original (or reasonable facsimile thereof) back.

Focus, instead, on how your games are going to be similar to COH...Tell us what you are keeping....not what you are replacing. Don't worry about getting into the Technical jargon all that much.   Sure, it sounds impressive...but for most, means absolutely nothing....they hear "we are changing this...."  and all the rest becomes just so much noise.   

You New Devs  are excited.....You have every right to be.  But the more I see you guys talk...the more I am convinced that you are focusing more and more on the technical aspects...which is a good thing....except that at the same time, you seem to be moving away from being able to view things from THIS side of the keyboard and mouse...where most of the rest of us are.

When you discuss it, sure...you can get a bit technical (at least so people will know you know what you are talking about  )  But then switch over and tell us what we are going to be seeing from THIS side. (hmmmm....you may need to get a non-techie type person to act as PR)

We want to be assured that, whatever it is you are doing to the backend, we can SEE COH in the front end.  Frankly, I personally get a little miffed when I hear/see COH2 tossed around too much.

Let's lay it out.  I lost COH.  The chances of getting it back are Slim.  So that means most of my hopes lie on TPP and HaV.  As a simple player, I could care less about what lies underneath what I see on my screen.  I don't want to hear/see how this engine compares to that one or to the one COH had.  I want the bottom line.  How much is what I am going to see on the screen going to resemble what I saw on the screen when I started COH?

How much is game play....as seen from THIS SIDE of the keyboard, going to resemble COH game play?

Since you guys are dead set against a clone (and no, I am still not convinced    But you are decided so I will drop it and just be convinced you are wrong LOL) tell me what changes I can expect from THIS side of the Keyboard. Are we going to have to put up with crappy character creators like CO and DCUO?

In the talks about the supposed freeform thing, I have gotten more useful information from TPP than ever before....because you guys talked a bit about what I would see from this side. And some one (I cannot recall who) said it best when they compared it to what I saw in COH...I would still have my ATs, etc.

I guess the point is....A lot of use want a bit of details of how it is going to be similar to COH...not different (or improved) from COH.   Will the artwork be of the same quality? (I don't know about a lot of you...but so far, COH still had the best character graphics of either of the other games....I mean...the DCUO creator is somewhat okay....but you really can't get as in depth with it as you could with COH....(and quite frankly, I am wondering why they go to the effort.....hell, your costume has changed from what you selected by the time you get out of Brainiac's ship.....if you put on the armor you find to keep yourself alive).

Okay, I will quit blathering and sum it up.  I think I am seeing part of the difficulty here.  You New Devs are seeing things from one side...a lot of the rest of simply players are seeing them from the other side....So I get the feeling that, when we talk, we really aren't talking about the same things.

I can understand the need to upgrade things for a new game rather than purposely dating it by using outdated technology. That's cool   but not something that really interests me (unless that new technology means I have to plop down money to buy new equipment to play it)  All of that stuff goes on under the surface.  I want to know what is going on ON the surface.

I want to know if the artwork will be acceptable.  I want to know how my ATs will work, I want to know how level progression will work.  Are you going to have something similar to the Epic Powers when toons reach a certain level?   Am I going to be able to build a base like in COH?   Am I going to be able to free play (ie go street hunting or choose which contacts I work with) or will I be locked into mishes? 

(and some may want to know how PvP will work from this side of the Keyboard as well...not me....but others might...so will you have Arenas?)  Will there be an AE equivalent?   How about a trading house?  Are we going to have enhancements like COH?  And is my interface going to look as much like COH as possible (quite frankly, that was one of the best user interfaces I have seen.)  Will the chat features be as close to COH as possible? (again, one of the best I have seen).

Quite frankly, THAT is what is going to tell the story.  When I log in...am I going to see something that says "Home"?

[TargetOne]

The more the merrier! Every request is one more notch toward it happening sooner rather than later

When you think about it, old-fashioned sea pirates used both swords and pistols, sometimes carrying one of each into battle, so the concept makes perfect sense for a pirate character.

[Blue Pulsar]

When you think about it, old-fashioned sea pirates used both swords and pistols, sometimes carrying one of each into battle, so the concept makes perfect sense for a pirate character.

Fair enough, but "old sea pirates" were standard human beings that raped, stole, and pillaged anything that they could take over. We are talking about a game based on Americanized superheroes, of which a large majority have, throughout the comics, definable roles. How many X-Men have primarily ranged attacks and invulnerability? How many were super strong brawlers, but couldn't take a hit?

[Rotten Luck]

Fair enough, but "old sea pirates" were standard human beings that raped, stole, and pillaged anything that they could take over. We are talking about a game based on Americanized superheroes, of which a large majority have, throughout the comics, definable roles. How many X-Men have primarily ranged attacks and invulnerability? How many were super strong brawlers, but couldn't take a hit?

Sounds like a challenge.  Okay lets play a game see if we can find characters that could be considered Free form constructs.

So far we have Spawn he has shown powers that range from range attacks to melee with regen.  Switched from Melee to chain attacks to Magic to Assault rifle.

I bring up Superman... wait let me explain.  Clearly Superman is a Tanker or as Wiki said a Paragon.  Super-strength, flight, invulnerability and heat vision.  He also has a Controllers power his Ice breath that can halt foes that power is not in the standard Tanker Melee set that Sups normally shows.

[Blue Pulsar]

We see a lot of talk about how much this or that will change....because COH was outdated or, as you said, because COH was patched together over the years....yadayadayada...My suggestion....stop talking about that....at least in the public forums...I would keep most of the "how things" are going to work discussion on the MWM or HaV hidden boards. (uh...I am assuming that HaV has them....I know MwM changed several of their forum boards to hidden from the public.)

You see...talk like that raises red flags. Especially in a community that is not yet ready to start looking at a COH2 until they get the original (or reasonable facsimile thereof) back.

Focus, instead, on how your games are going to be similar to COH...Tell us what you are keeping....not what you are replacing. Don't worry about getting into the Technical jargon all that much.   Sure, it sounds impressive...but for most, means absolutely nothing....they hear "we are changing this...."  and all the rest becomes just so much noise.

I agree to an extent, but I personally DO want to know what is going to be different, and why. Downix gave a great reason as to why they were changing the ATs and I understand. I don't necessarily like it, but I understand a bit better. But, no one wants to see their game change, and no one wants to see a clone/twin/mirror/etc that they are longing for be so different that they have to change the way they play in any way. At least, that's my assumption.

I want to know if the artwork will be acceptable.  I want to know how my ATs will work, I want to know how level progression will work.  Are you going to have something similar to the Epic Powers when toons reach a certain level?   Am I going to be able to build a base like in COH?   Am I going to be able to free play (ie go street hunting or choose which contacts I work with) or will I be locked into mishes?

(and some may want to know how PvP will work from this side of the Keyboard as well...not me....but others might...so will you have Arenas?)  Will there be an AE equivalent?   How about a trading house?  Are we going to have enhancements like COH?  And is my interface going to look as much like COH as possible (quite frankly, that was one of the best user interfaces I have seen.)  Will the chat features be as close to COH as possible? (again, one of the best I have seen).

Quite frankly, THAT is what is going to tell the story.  When I log in...am I going to see something that says "Home"?

All great questions and great points. I too want to know how similar it will be, but as I said before, I also want to know what will be different. Knowing what is different is part of know how it's the same. I think most people here that aren't working on the games want it to be as close to the original as possible. And I'm betting, all things being equal, that the most players will go to the one that is.

[Blue Pulsar]

I bring up Superman... wait let me explain.  Clearly Superman is a Tanker or as Wiki said a Paragon.  Super-strength, flight, invulnerability and heat vision.  He also has a Controllers power his Ice breath that can halt foes that power is not in the standard Tanker Melee set that Sups normally shows.

I already conceded Spawn as one of the incredibly few exceptions to the rule, so you got that one.

Superman is my specialty. Unfortunately, he is more powerful than an incarnate that has honed all of his skills to beyond perfection. Not to mention he is closer to a brute (with /Regen, /Invuln, and /SR (yes, all three, and maxed out)) since he pushes himself harder the harder the foe is to beat, or the longer the fight goes. As long as he is fighting in sunlight, that is. If not, he runs out of endurance.

However, do not brutes have access to Lazer Beam Eyes? Do not ice tanks have attacks that slow movement and attack rate and even lay a patch? Doesn't fiery melee have Breath of Fire? A short ranged cone attack?

My point is that every CoX AT focuses on a style. Yes, blasters have melee sprinkled across their power sets. Yes, spines scrappers can toss a spine or two. But they all focus on either ranged, or melee. And the melee gets the damage mitigation powersets.

[Rotten Luck]

Fair enough, but "old sea pirates" were standard human beings that raped, stole, and pillaged anything that they could take over. We are talking about a game based on Americanized superheroes, of which a large majority have, throughout the comics, definable roles. How many X-Men have primarily ranged attacks and invulnerability? How many were super strong brawlers, but couldn't take a hit?

I think I found one.  A strong brawler with a normal human defensive.  http://www.superherodb.com/Darkman/10-1126/

He was brought to a hospital and subjected to a radical treatment in which the nerves to the pain centers of his brain are destroyed. Removing this sensory input gives him increased strength due to adrenal overload and keeps his injuries from incapacitating him, but it also destabilizes his moods and mental state.

Darkman thought Technically he can take a hit, but it's due to him NOT feeling pain.  Physically wise he still gets damage (Maybe a form of Willpower?).

[Blue Pulsar]

I think I found one.  A strong brawler with a normal human defensive.  http://www.superherodb.com/Darkman/10-1126/

He was brought to a hospital and subjected to a radical treatment in which the nerves to the pain centers of his brain are destroyed. Removing this sensory input gives him increased strength due to adrenal overload and keeps his injuries from incapacitating him, but it also destabilizes his moods and mental state.

Darkman thought Technically he can take a hit, but it's due to him NOT feeling pain.  Physically wise he still gets damage (Maybe a form of Willpower?).

You actually hit the nail on the head. I would say that he kinda had a willpower thing. Pretty much perma Dull Pain. However, he was only a little above the average strength, due to the above average amount of testosterone and adrenaline. His defenses actually outweighed his offensive combat abilities. That, and he's Liam effing Neeson. He does what he wants...

[Rotten Luck]

I'm enjoying this challenge.  But let me clear things up I agree with you about the need for ATs.  Freeform that CO has I don't like I often pick powers that are redundant because I already have a power that does the same.  Or I grab one that doesn't get a boost from the Super Stats I use. 

That not the system TPP going with partly because of the Engine doesn't allow it and partly because the majority feel the same for the need of ATs.  Way things are looking it be more like the EATs of CoH.

Hmm can we consider Captain Planet being primary a TV character?  He seemed to be able to use a wide options of powers including turning his body to pure electricity or Stone.  Fire attack as well as wind or ice.  Melee and range. 

[dwturducken]

Reed Richards. Not so much free-form as (I would assume) incredibly difficult to implement in any present game mechanics. Maybe CO could do it without major modifications to existing power mechanics, but i don't know enough about the process to say how.

Or maybe, like me, the devs never really cared for stretchy powers...

[Blue Pulsar]

Hmm can we consider Captain Planet being primary a TV character?  He seemed to be able to use a wide options of powers including turning his body to pure electricity or Stone.  Fire attack as well as wind or ice.  Melee and range.

Another good one like Spawn. Though, I almost view CP as a pet since they could only summon him with all their rings. Other than that, he was close to a Superman-like character with the added powers of storm. But, he was built that way for a reason. He was designed as an answer to anything, but was just modeled after a super hero. He is essentially just written in as a quick and easy answer to every problem. It's a poor literary device, but it works in kids shows. I don't really know if I would put him in same category as the members of JLA, X-Men, Teen Titans, Avengers, etc.

[Blue Pulsar]

Reed Richards. Not so much free-form as (I would assume) incredibly difficult to implement in any present game mechanics. Maybe CO could do it without major modifications to existing power mechanics, but i don't know enough about the process to say how.

Or maybe, like me, the devs never really cared for stretchy powers...

I actually like Plastic Man a lot more than Reed. But I would say that neither of them are ranged fighters, mezzmers, or healers/support class. They are physical combatants that have to be physically close to their opponents, even if that means adding 35 feet to their arms. Their bodies are also incredibly durable. Plastic man is nearly indestructible. Impervious to all sorts of damage... well, all but heat. A hot summer sun can mess him up.

[JaguarX]

I'm enjoying this challenge.  But let me clear things up I agree with you about the need for ATs.  Freeform that CO has I don't like I often pick powers that are redundant because I already have a power that does the same.  Or I grab one that doesn't get a boost from the Super Stats I use. 

Yeah I hear this is a common problem with freeform. But given that with freeform you can pick just about any power, how does one end up with powers that are redunant or grab one that doesnt get a super stat boost without choosing to do so?

Sounds like freeform is confusing people.

On the CO forum I think there is a freeform guide.

Me personally I like the freedom that freeform affords meAlthough usually I stick with concept and what fits with a certain concept for me. But with freeform I can create any concept, way more than with ATs, "another brute that smash with a different outfit that is among the hundreds of other brutes that basically do the same thing."

I would like to see it as an option but if it cant, as it seems complicated and confusing to many, I would totally understand. I guess it worked well for me because it is the freedom I was yearning for in a game for years and finally found a game that offered it. I dont have to choice between the usual scrapper, tank brute balster, dominator/controller, or the unqie to COH MM, with pets each with the lowest hitpoints of any game. In CO I can build a MM (although not like in COX) that also can take a hit and defend themselves. Like I can build one that is the alpha wolf, the meanest toughest baddest  that can scrap with the best of them unlike in COX where the third tier pet was pound for pound tougher than the actual MM in many set and MM relegated to mostly range /support.

 (cant remember if I said something like this or not) Some say about the OP of freeform on teams with AT I dont see it as much of a problem anymore or less than teaming with IOed purpled out toons. Some say there will be messages like "Forming team Freeform only" or the likes when in reality there was plenty of those messages like that in COX except it was "Teaming forming, must be have IO's." And even more so with the Incarnate stuff that went beyond the in game official rules. So it was already there. If that was an issue then IOs shouldnt have been in the equation and or shouldnt be in the equation with the new game. Ironically I dont ever recall seeing "forming team, freeforms only or freeforms need not apply" in CO. Not saying it doesnt happen, but I just havent seen it.


But as I said, if it cant be supported due to engine, completely understandable or it's not popular enough, understandable it wont be included. But I think the option should be there. Even in CO, anyone can build a regular AT if freeform is not their thing.  And I seen some solid ATs seen some weak ones seen some solid freeforms seen some weak ones, seen some solid blasters seen some weak one seen some good tanks seen some weaks one, seen good MMs seen some bad ones seen some good controllers seen some bad ones. It's not the AT/freeform that builds itself it's the player building it. I could say that blasters are weak and not good for solo and some would counter with that they built a blaster that could take down AVs solo. What does that mean? Does that mean I just suck at building blasters? Maybe, maybe people suck at building freeforms. Or is it that  the blaster that can solo AVs is an anamoly and shouldnt be used as the example to show that blasters are good for solo. Just as I cant be used as an example that freeforms are easy to build good with right power choices and avoiding redundant powers and powers that does not serve a purpose.

[no hero]

An opportunity to redesign the back-end, to closer match the final design, would allow for future growth that the original could not.

"Now, Grundy understands TPP.
Now, Grundy likes MWM more.
Now, Grundy is hungry. 
Now, Grundy goes to eat tiramisu."