Community-Built COH Style MMORPG

[downix]

Yeah. Ask two people what they want...get three answers.  That is one reason I advocate the "clone" to start with. The known quantity that has a better chance of holding the community together while the new concepts are developed and tested.

The longer things drag out and the further the Plan Z's stray from the original without that concrete 'something' to hold the community together, the better chance that community is going to drift apart..despite best intentions! 
Right now, people want their game back! If they can't have that, they would be satisfied with a clone (which is what the original Plan Z led people to believe was their goal) with the possibility of a "COH2" in the future. With the clone in place, there would be time and people would be more inclined to discuss changes. Throw the commumity a bone in the form of a playable clone that will NOT be updated, THEN get to work on the new games.

You are aware that it would take as much time to develop a clone as to build an all new system. And by the time the clone is done, the world has left it behind, the novelty and nostalgia no longer laser-sharp.

[Nebularian]

You are aware that it would take as much time to develop a clone as to build an all new system. And by the time the clone is done, the world has left it behind, the novelty and nostalgia no longer laser-sharp.

Actually, I am not aware of that at all.  Nor do I think that is completely accurate.  By going with the known quantity, you are shaving off a lot of development time.  You are working with known and available models which would require only minor alterations instead of trying to re-invent the wheel. This should give you a tremendous boost in dealing with the client side aspects, leaving the server side aspect so be recreated.   You have a laid out plan that is ready to go.

Whereas, going with a new system right off the bat has a better chance of splintering (as we have seen), getting bogged down as whole new concepts have to be worked out, run the risks of finally completing something...for a community that is no longer there, etc. etc.

Look, I understand the desire to create something new and wonderful.  Something that takes what we loved and improves upon it..... I just think, like I said earlier...that Both TPP and VaH are putting the cart before the horse.

I don't expect you to agree with me.  But from my perspective, I am seeing a lot of grandiose concepts being tossed around by both teams.....each one taking them further and further from their initial stated goals...to give the players back their City....Or a reasonable facsimile thereof.  I WILL continue to support both teams until either or both finally decide to come out with something that is so different that I will have no choice but to give them no more consideration than I would CO or DCUO.  I BELIEVED in the original Plan Z because they promised to give me back at least a taste of what I lost....Now....I am not so sure.  TPP is talking freeform (which I won't support), VaH is talking an iffy engine (which worries me a tad bit)...... Both are talking grand new things...and Both are talking about how dated the COH system was and how it really wasn't all that great anyway.....Yeah....I am a bit worried about the directions the teams are going.

Bottom line, No, I don't think it entirely accurate to say that it would take just as long to create a clone as it would a new system. Will it take time?  sure.  But I believe it would be time well spent!  But, of course, it would mean delaying the grand new games......

[Perfidus]

I'll agree that it's very odd to hear the teams talking about how dated CoH was, when the entire the reason they formed was to recreate something like CoH and to give a home to the homeless.

But, like you, I'll support both teams. But I'm also realistic. I don't expect anything to actually come from either team. I would, however, love to be proven wrong. And it's not like I'm over here badmouthing the teams because they don't have a playable alpha, right now.

[Golden Girl]

As far as the HaV team is concerned, generally, the only area of CoH that could be thought of as outdated are some aspects of the graphics - mitten hands, static faces, lower poly player avatars, lower resolution NPC textures and models from 2004, non-ultra mode zone graphics. and so on.

CoH twice brushed aside newer superhero MMOS, and remained the comic book MMO market leader by some distance at the time of its closure - we're working under the guideline of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it - unless legally required to do so".

[Aviticus Gladius]

I noticed that someone voiced concern about the possibility that we abandoned the thread. We haven't, we've been working on legal documentation to grant an evaluation of Gorgon technology to the programming division of The Phoenix Project. We've been in further discussions, and will share information as progress is reached. As I stated in the beginning, it's very important for us to see some immediate forward progress and playability happen in the coming month; especially seeing as our technology is already engineered for rapid prototyping. We also feel that it's that much more important to insure the continuity of City of Heroes as much as we can. I honestly feel we're all here for the same reason. Though I do believe there were many areas where City of Heroes could use improvement, I don't feel that it needs a complete overhaul. We're also aware of legal boundaries and limitations. As someone said, it's impossible to directly recreate the gameplay sensation of City of Heroes. So, in all reality, a clone.... no matter how similar.... can't feel 100% identical t the original. I'm sure we've all played our share of MMOs that were labeled clones, but felt remotely different from the original while drawing strong inspiration from the original.

I also noticed someone pitched a challenge asking what element of City of Heroes I felt was the biggest "nerf". As I've only played as energy characters, weather it was energy melee or energy blaster, I can only speak on those elements. I'm the type of individual that finds something I like and sticks with it; this is also the way I cam with food and other elements of life. I felt that the original energy melee was incredibly debilitated once they moved to the higher emphasis on float values or more accurate percentage calculations. Not only did I noticed its standard usage unmodified would use more energy to activate at an much higher incremental rate, it did slightly less damage and decremented at a value of .23% of it's original DMG variable, prior to the new system. One thing I understand from my long history of playing MMORPGs is that balance is most important for maintaining a positive and equal gameplay experience. So I was never one of the people that took it to the next level in frustration, I simply went back to my energy blaster character and after a few enhancement tweaks and skill progression restructures, I was a happy player.

Unfortunately, I don't have time at the moment to respond to all comments as quickly as I'd like to; this is due to the fact that I felt it was time to focus more on bringing the city back and less on opinionated discussions . People will voice their concerns and those concerns are well-met and all have merit. This is very important to all of us I'm sure, even if we disagree on many of ideas/suggestions others consider valid points. Our goal is to build the strongest, most capable, internal team we can. Then we plan to deliver frequent prototypes to the community. Finally we will then start to involve everyone in the development cycle.

The world of CoH was a home for many of us, and much like in reality, we all like our homes a certain way. I bet most of you get easily upset when someone comes into our homes and try to change things from the way we have had them set; I know I do. It hasn't been my intention to make anyone feel uneasy or concerned with my post. If I've done that, I apologize. I was looking to gain a greater perspective on what the community thought about becoming committed to building a CoH successor. This thread has yielded a lot of great answers, and I'm most appreciative for everyone's input.  I've just been one of the lonely wanderers waiting for someone to fight for the city. I assure you we are working hard to rebuild what we've lost and keep lines of communication open to the public. Expect more information and progress updates as we move forward..

Thanks again everyone.

[Nightmarer]

the only area of CoH that could be thought of as outdated are some aspects of the graphics - mitten hands, static faces, lower poly player avatars, lower resolution NPC textures and models from 2004, non-ultra mode zone graphics. and so on.

Oh come on just say it, we all know you want to... CoH lacked ANIMATED HAIR  ;D

[Perfidus]

Oh come on just say it, we all know you want to... CoH lacked ANIMATED HAIR  ;D

But it didn't. Ghost Widow, anyone? :P

[TargetOne]

Maybe if Freeform were an option, it'd be okay, but I definitely want CoH's Archetype/Powerset system first and foremost.

Which brings me to a more general concern about any attempt at a "spiritual successor": everyone liked different things about CoH, and everyone wanted different things improved, and any "spiritual successor" is going to disappoint people - both for sticking too closely to CoH's style and for not sticking to it closely enough.

I never said there shouldn't be a focus on archetypes, just that archetypes shouldn't be the only option.

And yeah, no one game can satisfy everyone. Hell, even if by some miracle we got the actual CoH back, complete with our existing accounts and characters, people would complain.

[Nightmarer]

But it didn't. Ghost Widow, anyone? :P

That was no good for GG, I mean, actually, it just encouraged her even more to ask for animated hair in forums, can't blame her, she spent years asking for necklines and she got them.-

[Nebularian]

I'll agree that it's very odd to hear the teams talking about how dated CoH was, when the entire the reason they formed was to recreate something like CoH and to give a home to the homeless.

But, like you, I'll support both teams. But I'm also realistic. I don't expect anything to actually come from either team. I would, however, love to be proven wrong. And it's not like I'm over here badmouthing the teams because they don't have a playable alpha, right now.

LOL  Just to clarify.....I am not bad mouthing LOL  I respect both teams even if I do not totally agree on the directions.  To be honest, I am just enjoying the reasoned, calm, and friendly conversation we're having :)

[Nebularian]

And yeah, no one game can satisfy everyone. Hell, even if by some miracle we got the actual CoH back, complete with our existing accounts and characters, people would complain.

But of course they would complain...it is the nature of the beast. "Yeah, you got our game back....but what have you done for me in the last few minutes?  hmmmm?  Why isn't that new game ready to go yet?  Sheeesh....Get busy already!!!"

Neither team should try to please everyone....they would never get anything done (I would add something else, but one of my team mates stole my smart-ass switch and forgot to give it back before the city closed down....still trying to hunt her down on FB)

And giving the community a playable clone would not stop the complaints. But I think it would have beneficial effects for both teams. (especially if it was a joint effort.....yeah...I know the likelihood of that happening...but hell, the Eagles got back together...so Hell has already froze over)

Seriously, if the teams put out a clone.....something for the community to at least get a bit of their old COH fix, with the understanding that "this is it, folks.  We won't be updating or adding new material..." they might put a plug in the dike that is springing leaks.

I will admit that the reason I suggest both teams get together to put out the clone is because I think if only one team put it out...that team would already enjoy a tremendous advantage over the other.

For example, let say the VaH team put out a playable clone...and understand that I am thinking a limited clone here, it does not have to be on the same scale as COH when it closed down....then VaH will have cornered a LOT of support for their new game when it comes out.

Look at what started this thread in the first place! Gladius came in with a few notions...and suddenly we have a NEW Plan Z Project.  While I am willing to give Gladius the benefit of the doubt, I can't as yet elevate him to the same status of regard in which I hold the people of TPP or VaH (and I admit I have a soft spot for GG since her online comic helped me out when I first started playing COH).  But the fact that he instantly gained so much support shows how hungry the community is for SOMETHING that neither team is really providing at this time....hope.

In the end, is possible that both teams will be successful in their endeavors?  Sure. But I am afraid that by the time they are, they won't have a ready made base to start with. On the other hand, yeah, I know it would take time to develop a clone (and common sense still insists that such an endeavor would not take as long as a full blown new game) But knowing that they are working on it...along with progress updates, would stand a better chance of keeping a greater part of the community together.

And has anyone looked at the number of people both teams have working?  You put all those people to work on a clone.....then you publish the clone...and I do NOT suggest it be free to play.  A small monthly fee...which could then be divided up to help fund BOTH efforts to the new games.

[downix]

Actually, I am not aware of that at all.  Nor do I think that is completely accurate.  By going with the known quantity, you are shaving off a lot of development time.  You are working with known and available models which would require only minor alterations instead of trying to re-invent the wheel. This should give you a tremendous boost in dealing with the client side aspects, leaving the server side aspect so be recreated.   You have a laid out plan that is ready to go.

Whereas, going with a new system right off the bat has a better chance of splintering (as we have seen), getting bogged down as whole new concepts have to be worked out, run the risks of finally completing something...for a community that is no longer there, etc. etc.

Look, I understand the desire to create something new and wonderful.  Something that takes what we loved and improves upon it..... I just think, like I said earlier...that Both TPP and VaH are putting the cart before the horse.

I don't expect you to agree with me.  But from my perspective, I am seeing a lot of grandiose concepts being tossed around by both teams.....each one taking them further and further from their initial stated goals...to give the players back their City....Or a reasonable facsimile thereof.  I WILL continue to support both teams until either or both finally decide to come out with something that is so different that I will have no choice but to give them no more consideration than I would CO or DCUO.  I BELIEVED in the original Plan Z because they promised to give me back at least a taste of what I lost....Now....I am not so sure.  TPP is talking freeform (which I won't support), VaH is talking an iffy engine (which worries me a tad bit)...... Both are talking grand new things...and Both are talking about how dated the COH system was and how it really wasn't all that great anyway.....Yeah....I am a bit worried about the directions the teams are going.

Bottom line, No, I don't think it entirely accurate to say that it would take just as long to create a clone as it would a new system. Will it take time?  sure.  But I believe it would be time well spent!  But, of course, it would mean delaying the grand new games......

To make a clone you would in effect need to rebuild the original engine. Perhaps not the graphics engine, but the combat engine, zoning engine, etc. As this has to be done through reverse engineering, a slow process as anyone with SEGS can tell you, there is no actual time saved with a clone. I know we evaluated it very early on, before the TPP/H&V split, and found that the time to deliver, simply put, was as much as to produce from scratch.

To speed things up, you see what areas you *can* get rid of, things like the zoning engine or the server system, use a new system for that. Once you do that, then you look at other areas to improve upon, to reduce the time to clone. After all that, you've deviated so much, you may as well go full-on-bore for a new project.

I'm not against a clone, and in fact I still have a writeup and some test code for making one. If someone were to come to me with a serious proposal for one, and the tools for it, I may reconsider. Pity the "Atlas Park Revisited" person chose Unreal, which does not offer itself well to a CoH-like MMO. (or any MMO unless you pay big bucks for their Atlas server system)

[Rae]

The fact that he instantly gained so much support shows how hungry the community is for SOMETHING that neither team is really providing at this time....hope.

I'm a tad curious as to what hope you think people would like to see - as my avatar/title indicates, I'm part of TPP and am interested in the sort of thing you think people would like to see (bearing in mind that things like 'a game' and 'a video' or 'the character creator' will actually take some time to do) and how you're classifying 'hope'.

I'm asking because I'm aware that HAV post a weekly update on what they're doing, have given interviews and shown off concept art and have an active FB and Twitter account, while TPP have created regular development blogs, post concept art and updates on our website/Twitter/FB feeds (and postings in various community COH FB groups), have produced a promotional video and given a number of interviews.

With no disrespect to Valiance Online, the only thing I have currently seen from them is a webpage and a forum.

So I am reasonably curious as to why you (or anyone else) thinks people saw Valiance as 'hope', but (possibly) don't consider the significant amounts of material, interviews and information being given out by the other projects in the same light?

Is it just that people who haven't signed up to the various FB/Twitter/forums are feeling left out of the loop?

(Edited because I speel gud.)

[Nightmarer]

I'm a tad curious as to what hope you think people would like to see - as my avatar/title indicates, I'm part of TPP and I'm curious as to what sort of thing you think people would like to see (bearing in mind that things like 'a game' and 'a video' or 'the character creator' will actually take some time to do) and how you're classifying 'hope'.

I'm asking because I'm aware that HAV post a weekly update on what they're doing, have given interviews and shown off concept art and have an active FB and Twitter account, while TPP have created regular development blogs, post concept art and updates on our website/Twitter/FB feeds (and postings in various community COH FB groups), have produced a promotional video and given a number of interviews.

With no disrespect to Valiance Online, the only thing I have currently seen from them is a webpage and a forum.

So I am reasonably curious as to why you (or anyone else) thinks people saw Valiance as 'hope', but (possibly) don't consider the significant amounts of material, interviews and information being given out by the other projects in the same light?

Is it just that people who haven't signed up to the various FB/Twitter/forums are feeling left out of the loop?

What I personally saw in the Valiance project at the beginning that gave me the kind of hope I didn't get from TPP and HaV was that Aviticus mentioned he was going to do a game as close as the original CoH as possible, a clone with just the minimum changes to avoid any legal action from NCSoft.

See, I didn't get such hope from TPP because, at the time I used to follow the missing worlds media forums, the project was drifting away from the CoH idea too much for my taste, maybe it changed later but I had already lost my interest and never checked back.

I didn't get such hope from the HaV project either because, despite they seemed to plan something much closer to the original CoH, they chose possibly the worst game engine available.

All in all, you're right, all we got so far is a lot of talking, a bunch of cloned websites for non-existing games and, after following the few posts from Aviticus in the Valiance forums, the certainty that nobody there ever played CoH. Now that I come to review Aviticus Gladius arrival to these forums and after re-reading his posts, well, I feel stupid because everything seems obvious now, however, it nevertheless shows up to which point I was hungry for something I don't think any of the existing teams will provide.

[Nebularian]

Thx for that explanation, Downix.

Just so it is understood, I am NOT bad-mouthing anyone... I don't agree totally with the directions the two teams are going (and even less so from what I have seen on about the Justice team) and I enjoy talking about it in a calm, reasoned manner :) I still support both teams...hell, I created banners for both teams and have them in my banner rotation on my fan-fiction site and am looking forward to the day I can replace the CO and DCUO buttons in the MMORPG module with TPP and VaH buttons!

Yes, I do fear both teams are straying...and DO risk losing the support they enjoyed, but in the end, YOU guys are the ones doing the work.  I understand that your priorities might not always go hand in hand with what the community wants or needs.

I guess where we differ is what should be a priority.     Correct me if I get the following scenario wrong:

When faced with the fact that a clone would take time (and sorry, I am still not convinced that it would take as long as a project started from scratch), it was decided to by pass this option (and recall that THIS option is what gained Plan Z support in the first place) and go forward with a totally new game.

It was at this point that Plan Z divided into two separate teams (and no, I do NOT want to know the why of the division...creative differences happen and it should have been expected that some would want to go left while others wanted to go right).  But for whatever reason, the split occurred. This came as a bit of a blow to a lot of the community.

A second blow, really, since they had already been informed that, no, you will not get the game that Plan Z was formed to give you in the first place.

Now, if you look at any of my posts on the subject, you will see that the split did not bother me personally.  I actually thought it a good idea. Of course, at the time, I thought that one team was wanting to work on a completely new game and the other wanted to work on what would amount to an updated "clone".   I thought this was a fine notion.  Of course I was wrong.  (I cannot, at this time recall my reasoning for thinking that TPP was working on the updated "clone" while VaH was going forward with something new.)

Now, with this division..and with the focus straying further and further away from what COH was, an atmosphere has been created that has allowed not one but two new "teams" to jump into the pot to muddy the waters even more.

Shrug.  What is done is done.  Perhaps it is too late for either TPP or VaH to work on developing a "clone".  But I will say that if some other team announces that they are working on a clone, start giving updates as to progress and end up publishing that "clone" and announced that they would then begin work on a "clone2",  that team will have fulfilled the promise of the original Plan Z.  They will have gained the gratitude of a major portion of the community (and I don't mean just those here on the Titan Network...I talk to others that don't come here...despite my efforts to convince them to come here and let their voices be heard) and TPP and VaH will have to work a lot harder to regain the support they originally enjoyed.

I don't see any easy answers.  But I fear that, as time goes on, both TPP and VaH are going to lose support as the less hard core elements of the community begin to drift away.  (I guess the best we can hope for, since both teams are dead set against a clone, is that some how Task Force Hail Mary is some how successful.)

[Rae]

Thanks Nightmarer - I'm sorry you don't feel any of the current projects are really what you're looking for. I would say that all the of people who have come forward have said they are community projects, looking for the feedback of their community, so it is worth heading to the various groups and making sure you have your say. Obviously, no-one can please everyone, but if you just lurk don't speak up, you'll never be heard.

If the various projects aren't ticking various boxes for certain people, that's a real shame. But I'd imagine that both of them have changed somewhat since the early days, so you may find a little more hope that the things you want are being created if you pop your head back into them again.

Obviously, as has been said a billion times before, legal constraints mean that nobody can (legally) recreate COX as it was. I know I miss COH more than I'd care to admit, and I know it's the same for many others of the various 'successor' projects.

I was just worried that people feel that there isn't enough information coming out about the projects - or the WRONG information was coming out, and in the case of TPP, it's sort of my job to make sure that's not the case.

Of course, having said that if there are people who want to be kept up-to-date in ways other than the ones we already do - or if we're not putting out the sort of information they want to hear about, PM me here, or on the MWM forums (www.missingworldsmedia.com/forums - I have the same username on both) and tell me what other methods we could be using, I'll do my best to make it happen :)

And I'm sure that'd be the same for the other projects, too.

[Rae]

double post deleted  ;D

[Nebularian]

I'm a tad curious as to what hope you think people would like to see - as my avatar/title indicates, I'm part of TPP and I'm curious as to what sort of thing you think people would like to see (bearing in mind that things like 'a game' and 'a video' or 'the character creator' will actually take some time to do) and how you're classifying 'hope'.

Nightmarer answered it pretty well.   I guess the best way to sum it up would be to say  they see some one come in, talking a good game, offering something they want that both TPP and VaH both say isn't going to happen...it does tend to give hope.  False hope, maybe...but none the less.

(I am going to have to change my Sig to add a statement that clarifies the point that I am NOT attempting to be disrespectful to either TPP or VaH,  Just showing friendly disagreement and enjoying the conversation.)

(my fiance is making me add this...she says I would argue with a stump if I could LOL)

[Nightmarer]

but if you just lurk don't speak up, you'll never be heard.

See, that's a very good point. After reading your post, I started thinking why I never joined the forums and instead, I just lurked and never bothered checking back when I saw where it was heading. I guess the answer, in my particular case, is that I don't feel that either project is a community driven one but I'm not sure why that is. On one side, I think it's partly because of the split, let me see if I can explain myself (not so easy for me in English):

The fact that a community driven effort by a group of people who had such disagreements that made said project split in two kinda set up the tone of what was in store, see, I have no game developing skills whatsoever, I can't help either writing or even proof reading since English is not my native language so the way I saw it was "how the heck are they going to listen to anything I might suggest if they couldn't get in agreement among themselves in the first place?".

I know what I'm saying is not fair to any of the teams, specially not knowing any of you in person, however, that's the way I felt it and that's why I just lurked in TPP forums without voicing an opinion, I just thought there was little point to it.

[Rotten Luck]

There is always a point Nightmarer.  Even if that point is to say... "I am just one voice among Millions, but still I don't agree with you."  Sometimes that's all it takes.  Just one voice asking "But should we do that?"  It causes us to stop just for a moment. 

For me I posted this on the MWM Forum.

One fear I have for any "CLONE" of city of Heroes is it won't have the great stories. More often I would turn off my XP gain and just do missions following the story arcs. The newer ones were better, but some of the older ones were gems as well.

No matter how identical the mechanics are if the writing team not up to par a direct clone would suck. That why I'm glad The Phoenix Project not Trying to be City of heroes. The stories here would be fresh with fresh background and layers.

Nostalgia is a cruel thing. We remember fondly cartoons or movies of our past, but when watching them again... did you know the Transformers animation sucked? The point is no matter how good a game is if it's to much like the Original it would trigger nostalgia and comparing the new game to our Memories of City of Heroes filtered through nostalgia it would have no hope at all. At worst we end up with a Superboy-Prime effect where we end up angry that things are so much alike and yet so wrong we end up hating the new game. Even if the new game is good.

Two things strike me as being the heart of City of heroes. Stories that make you want to read and do them over and over, and the community that makes you enjoy helping a new player experience the City for the first time.