MMORPG - COH profitability

[Victoria Victrix]

Well I am one of those people who faithfully enters Publisher's Clearing House contests daily.  And those things are plastered with Wartune ads.  How expensive could that be?

[Terwyn]

Sufficiently inexpensive to be a minor expense for a company of Paragon's level of revenue.

You could do a full scale multi-magazine advertising campaign with a reach of about 20 million for under $800 000, if you're sufficiently cunning and selective. Vastly more if the advertising campaign also includes digital ads alongside the magazine's digital content.

If you had articles about your game or studio appearing in the magazine, that's essentially several pages worth of free advertising, depending on the length and placement of the article.

The real question on my mind is why didn't NCSoft consider this as an option?

City of Heroes predates World of Warcraft, and was sufficiently different that it avoided many of the same traps that Blizzard *still* hasn't fully escaped. A well placed salvo of print ads alongside each new issue would probably have actually severally culled World of Warcraft's numbers *long* before its first expansion was released. They took three years to get it out, compared to our three months.

That level of fresh content paired with a consistently high rate of advertising would have been enough that instead of Wow being a statistical aberration, it would have simply been just one of many high-profile MMOs.

[Little Green Frog]

Can Koreans behave with greater cultural awareness of foreign social mores? Absolutely. I am positive that most who are successful internationally do. NCSoft apparently has not, and this explanation for their behavior fits from hypothetical cause to expected effect. Therefore, we feel the hypothesis is supported by the evidence.

You feel there is evidence? And that feeling is what justifies usage of national stereotypes to fill the gaps in our knowledge about the reasons behind the closure? I honestly don't know what to say to that.

[Terwyn]

You feel there is evidence? And that feeling is what justifies usage of national stereotypes to fill the gaps in our knowledge about the reasons behind the closure? I honestly don't know what to say to that.

Actually, the feeling is not regarding the existence of evidence, the feeling is in regards to the accuracy and validity of the conclusions thus drawn. In the halls of science, that is quite permissible.

[Segev]

There is evidence: the evidence is the behavior itself, and the knowledge that Korean corporate and social culture does, in fact, have these sorts of expectations. Viewed through that lens, those cultural expectations on the part of NCSoft executives makes known behaviors make sense. The alternative hypotheses with which we've been able to come up amount to mustache-twirling villainy and bad-writing pastiches of "Evil Stupid Bosses" who somehow make money by printing it using ink mined from the painfully extracted misery of their employees, or include a hatred for making money.

Since the former pastiche makes sense only if you're watching the Jetsons and think Spacely is a reasonable model of how true success happens, and the latter describes Captain Planet eco-villains more than any real businessperson, the hypothesis that there is a cultural expectation which directed these behaviors seems the most reasonable.

I don't "feel" there is evidence. I "feel" that the hypothesis of cultural issues explaining the evidence is the most likely of all that we have.

And it's a bit of a reach for you to accuse me of applying "cultural stereotype" in an offensive manner. I've not painted a caricature of Koreans here. I've taken research done by others and my own experience with Asian culture in broad strokes and applied them. Just as one might explain an American's refusal to adhere to "traditional British rich-people style" to his being, well, American in the early 1900s, one can explain behaviors of anybody who grew up steeped in a particular culture in light of those cultural mores. It's not saying they're slaves to it, but it can help explain otherwise seemingly-nonsensical behaviors.

Or are you saying you have a better idea what precipitated the behaviors in question in this case, from the (by Western standards) appalling way Paragon Studios's employees were treated to the infuriating disrespect shown to the CoH fanbase to the apparent desire to lose money when they were, at a minimum, making a "small" profit before this action.

[Nafaustu]

[Starsman]

dueling Santas

It really wasn't much of a commercial compared to others out there I hear.  It wasn't shown in front of my midnight 2D showing.

Interesting thing about that spot:

When I saw The Hobbit, my wife was trying to decide what to get me for Christmas. The GW2 ad came and went without her noticing it, bit later followed by a World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria spot. That later one did get her curious enough to ask me if I have played that game, and inquire in that curious "maybe I should give him THAT for Christmas" (I shut her down fast for many reasons, budget being one, not wanting to be stuck in an MMO again for soo many hours a day being another.)

But the point is: WoW ad: extremely effective at getting people interested. GW2 ad: subconsciously ignorable. Heck only thing I remember off the ad is the big dragon-molded numeral 2 showing on screen (cant access youtube now  to see your link.)

Although, again, at least it's something.

[Segev]

All I can say is, I've never said "all Korean companies act this way." I've always been saying, "We can better understand the behavior we are seeing from this particular company if we better understand these aspects of Korean culture."

It's actually rather disingenuous to compare what I'm saying to somebody claiming "all Americans are fat, loud, and stupid." Not only am I not saying all Koreans behave the same way, but I think most Americans would say, "no, we are not that way, and those of us who are don't revel in it."

I am not decrying things that are, to my knowledge, considered negative to Koreans about their own culture, any more than Americans consider rugged individualism and gumption (viewed by other cultures as brashness and disrespect) to be negative parts of our own culture. I am outlining that one can better understand NCSoft's actions if one has this knowledge of how propriety works in Korean culture. Just as, to a hypothetical Korean steeped in these aspects of Korean culture - who might be baffled that the Paragon Studios guys would be so utterly crass and disrespectful as to try to negotiate with their superiors, or that the Western gaming audience would dare question a highly-placed company executive's word and protest loudly - explaining American cultural mores about "rugged individualism" and "taking initiative" and being very individually proud of what we build for ourselves would go a long way towards helping him understand why Paragon Studios was not thinking they were being rude, nor expected the axe, and why the SaveCoH movement has acted as it has.

[WildFire15]

We have facts and reliable source confirmed information. The only theory (underlined as that's really all we have as to why this has happened) that links all these together in a way that makes sense is the idea of conflicting culture as Segev has put forwards.

[Nafaustu]

All I can say is, I've never said "all Korean companies act this way." I've always been saying, "We can better understand the behavior we are seeing from this particular company if we better understand these aspects of Korean culture."

It's actually rather disingenuous to compare what I'm saying to somebody claiming "all Americans are fat, loud, and stupid." Not only am I not saying all Koreans behave the same way, but I think most Americans would say, "no, we are not that way, and those of us who are don't revel in it."

I am not decrying things that are, to my knowledge, considered negative to Koreans about their own culture, any more than Americans consider rugged individualism and gumption (viewed by other cultures as brashness and disrespect) to be negative parts of our own culture. I am outlining that one can better understand NCSoft's actions if one has this knowledge of how propriety works in Korean culture. Just as, to a hypothetical Korean steeped in these aspects of Korean culture - who might be baffled that the Paragon Studios guys would be so utterly crass and disrespectful as to try to negotiate with their superiors, or that the Western gaming audience would dare question a highly-placed company executive's word and protest loudly - explaining American cultural mores about "rugged individualism" and "taking initiative" and being very individually proud of what we build for ourselves would go a long way towards helping him understand why Paragon Studios was not thinking they were being rude, nor expected the axe, and why the SaveCoH movement has acted as it has.

I didn't mean you specifically, my friend. 

I was addressing you because you were the post imediately previous to mine that was relevent.   I'm also addressing you because you, in all your posts, have always established a comprehension that its NOT what is meant.   But in a public venue, what we say and what me mean have to be carefully synchronized. 

My post is address to our community as a whole and I am begging my community, of which I am proud.   Please.   Please.  Please.  Think of how it sounds to outsiders.

The most common arguement made here is "WE RESEARCHED THIS."   That is why I created the parallel that I made.    We researched what the English speaking world thinks Kibun (sp) is.   We researched Korean culture.   We even maybe asked an actual Korean or two for input.   But there were several other actual Koreans that said "Your understanding is wrong." And we responded by saying "WE RESEARCHED THIS!"

The point that I am trying to make globally is that everytime I read "Korean this" and "Korean that" on the forums, I now actively cringe because I see in it reflected the opinions and biases of other cultures against my own.   They did the research, they think they understand, but...

So what I am suggesting is that instead of focusing on "This is an Asian company, therefore..." which is what I am seeing a lot.   (Not necessarily from you Sergev, you're fairly constructive.    )   We need to get away from it.   Its a trap.   Help me.

[Mazz vs The World]

I didn't mean you specifically, my friend. 

I was addressing you because you were the post imediately previous to mine that was relevent.   I'm also addressing you because you, in all your posts, have always established a comprehension that its NOT what is meant.   But in a public venue, what we say and what me mean have to be carefully synchronized. 

My post is address to our community as a whole and I am begging my community, of which I am proud.   Please.   Please.  Please.  Think of how it sounds to outsiders.

The most common arguement made here is "WE RESEARCHED THIS."   That is why I created the parallel that I made.    We researched what the English speaking world thinks Kibun (sp) is.   We researched Korean culture.   We even maybe asked an actual Korean or two for input.   But there were several other actual Koreans that said "Your understanding is wrong." And we responded by saying "WE RESEARCHED THIS!"

The point that I am trying to make globally is that everytime I read "Korean this" and "Korean that" on the forums, I now actively cringe because I see in it reflected the opinions and biases of other cultures against my own.   They did the research, they think they understand, but...

So what I am suggesting is that instead of focusing on "This is an Asian company, therefore..." which is what I am seeing a lot.   (Not necessarily from you Sergev, you're fairly constructive.    )   We need to get away from it.   Its a trap.   Help me.

I agree with this, well said!

[JaguarX]

I didn't mean you specifically, my friend. 

I was addressing you because you were the post imediately previous to mine that was relevent.   I'm also addressing you because you, in all your posts, have always established a comprehension that its NOT what is meant.   But in a public venue, what we say and what me mean have to be carefully synchronized. 

My post is address to our community as a whole and I am begging my community, of which I am proud.   Please.   Please.  Please.  Think of how it sounds to outsiders.

The most common arguement made here is "WE RESEARCHED THIS."   That is why I created the parallel that I made.    We researched what the English speaking world thinks Kibun (sp) is.   We researched Korean culture.   We even maybe asked an actual Korean or two for input.   But there were several other actual Koreans that said "Your understanding is wrong." And we responded by saying "WE RESEARCHED THIS!"

The point that I am trying to make globally is that everytime I read "Korean this" and "Korean that" on the forums, I now actively cringe because I see in it reflected the opinions and biases of other cultures against my own.   They did the research, they think they understand, but...

So what I am suggesting is that instead of focusing on "This is an Asian company, therefore..." which is what I am seeing a lot.   (Not necessarily from you Sergev, you're fairly constructive.    )   We need to get away from it.   Its a trap.   Help me.

indeed

[Little Green Frog]

The most common arguement made here is "WE RESEARCHED THIS."   That is why I created the parallel that I made.    We researched what the English speaking world thinks Kibun (sp) is.   We researched Korean culture.   We even maybe asked an actual Korean or two for input.   But there were several other actual Koreans that said "Your understanding is wrong." And we responded by saying "WE RESEARCHED THIS!"

I agree with what you said with my whole heart.

[Ironwolf]

So please if it isn't a cultural thing based on a Korean reaction to a studio seeking to buy its way out of an agreement - why did they close City of Heroes?

I could see why they might severely chop Paragon Studios to 20 people and fire Brian Clayton for daring to try and become their own studio independant of NCSoft. But to drop a game that free of the burden of 60 excess programmers could turn a nice profit for the next 3-5years with little investment seems completely ignorant on every level.

To me this does smell like a clash of cultures. The lowly drones dared to try and not only break free of NCSoft - they wanted to take the game with them? How dare they! In America if you could present a scenario where you get a win/win both people make out on the deal - this would be normal business. It appears this caused someone in NCSoft HQ to take offense and raze the place to the ground and salt the earth. If it wasn't a cultural difference between Korea and the US - how do YOU explain it? I have read enough of the Kibune effect to understand this could have been taken as extremely disrespectful - enough so as to warrant the Genghis Khan treament CoH recieved.

[Little Green Frog]

So please if it isn't a cultural thing based on a Korean reaction to a studio seeking to buy its way out of an agreement - why did they close City of Heroes?

We. Don't. Know.

We do not have access to NCsoft's internal documents, shareholder memos, they do not discuss with us their short- and longterm strategies and they did not reach out to the public with a substantial explanation. We have a few rumors, some more or less wild theories and that is about it. No hard data, though. Certainly nothing to build any theory upon, not to mention one that is clearly prejudiced against foreign culture.

To me this does smell like a clash of cultures. The lowly drones dared to try and not only break free of NCSoft - they wanted to take the game with them? How dare they! In America if you could present a scenario where you get a win/win both people make out on the deal - this would be normal business. It appears this caused someone in NCSoft HQ to take offense and raze the place to the ground and salt the earth. If it wasn't a cultural difference between Korea and the US - how do YOU explain it? I have read enough of the Kibune effect to understand this could have been taken as extremely disrespectful - enough so as to warrant the Genghis Khan treament CoH recieved.

You are clearly hurt by their actions. That is why the anger takes the better of you. But take a deep breath, step back, read what you just typed and then ask yourself: do I really know that this is what happened? If not, how does me making such harsh judgement make Korean CoHers feel? (Yes, they are out there, on this very forum.) How does this make us look to the public?

Is this really what you want us to be seen as? Do you want to be that guy yourself?

[Nafaustu]

To me this does smell like a clash of cultures. The lowly drones dared to try and not only break free of NCSoft - they wanted to take the game with them? How dare they! In America if you could present a scenario where you get a win/win both people make out on the deal - this would be normal business. It appears this caused someone in NCSoft HQ to take offense and raze the place to the ground and salt the earth. If it wasn't a cultural difference between Korea and the US - how do YOU explain it? I have read enough of the Kibune effect to understand this could have been taken as extremely disrespectful - enough so as to warrant the Genghis Khan treament CoH recieved.

It IS a cultural difference.   It is a CORPERATE cultural difference.   There are American companies that act of of spite as well.   

I have the good fortune of working for an international corporation that has a soul.   It treats its employees fairly, and strives to make the world a better place.   It is different from the corporate culture of any other company I have ever worked for, many with the same country of home office.

The nation in which home office stands will absolutely affect the corporate culture of a corporation, but it does not dictate corporate culture in whole cloth.

NCSoft is a bad company.   They clearly have a corporate culture influenced by the location of their home office.    But is is Corporate culture that makes them a bad company, not Korean culture.

I'm stressing this, once again, because of the mass exodus from the forums.   I'm not attacking individuals.   I'm asking my community to help me make this a less polarized place before we lose anyone else.     Corporate Culture, not Korean culture.   Target Market Segment, not East vs West.

Are localization components a thing?   ABSOLUTELY.   But they are not the whole thing, so they should be termed as through they are.


EDited: to clarify I meant same country of home office, not physical building home office.

[P51mus]

To me this does smell like a clash of cultures. The lowly drones dared to try and not only break free of NCSoft - they wanted to take the game with them? How dare they! In America if you could present a scenario where you get a win/win both people make out on the deal - this would be normal business. It appears this caused someone in NCSoft HQ to take offense and raze the place to the ground and salt the earth. If it wasn't a cultural difference between Korea and the US - how do YOU explain it? I have read enough of the Kibune effect to understand this could have been taken as extremely disrespectful - enough so as to warrant the Genghis Khan treament CoH recieved.

Culture doesn't need to be invoked as an explanation.  A spiteful boss explains it without needing to resort to culture.  Irrational decisions happen in business because people are involved and people are often not rational actors.  In America there are bosses that will get mad at employees for daring to second guess their decisions as well.  Even if those decisions are terrible and will cause losses for the business.

[Knight Light]

A being's environment contributes heavily to their behaviour. However, since this is true of everyone and jerks can be found anywhere on the planet, I believe we should stop investigating cultural differences as an avenue to attempt to explain why this situation has occurred.

Don't hate NCSoft for where they come from, hate them for who they are; idiot douchebags of limited vision who wouldn't recognise a good game if it slapped them in the face and who have no attachment to or respect for loyal customers.

[Arctic Force.]

Don't hate NCSoft for where they come from, hate them for who they are; idiot douchebags of limited vision who wouldn't recognise a good game if it slapped them in the face and who have no attachment to or respect for loyal customers.

I concur.

[Starsman]

So please if it isn't a cultural thing based on a Korean reaction to a studio seeking to buy its way out of an agreement - why did they close City of Heroes?

We don't know, but based on Matt Miller's video interview at MMORPG, I don't think them trying to buy themselves out was the cause at all, but the other way around: they were attempting to buy themselves out because they knew NCSoft had no interest in sustaining them for much longer. They never expected to be told overnight that operations were shut down and everyone to be handled like a terrorist, but they did expect operations to expect an eventual cancelation.

We REALLY should leave the whole nationality thing out of this, unless we talking about more subtle things (like Superhero genre being a hard-to-export thing due to its heavy American culture influence resulting in CoH's failure overseas.)