Author Topic: Why COH will not get a server emulator.  (Read 99489 times)

Nightmarer

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 182
  • We all float down here
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #160 on: January 16, 2013, 05:41:04 PM »
Delicious bread pudding for the toaster, methinks.

I thought we have settled on hero exfoliator?

Reimplementation (I think.)

Hmm, all seem valid, now I just need to figure out which ones can be used as colloquial and which ones as technical...

Kaiser Tarantula

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 580
  • @Nerva
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #161 on: January 17, 2013, 12:54:57 AM »
Bah.  Really, a whole thread over what amounts to semantics?

I don't care if it's an emulator, compatible server software, wholesale reengineering, reimplementation, or whatever.  I don't care if it's being run on a home desktop, a server farm, the original CoH servers, a toaster, or a bronze cauldron of bubbling purple goop heated by the magics of a hundred leprechauns engaging in interpretive dance.

I WANT MY PANCAKING GAME BACK!

dwturducken

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Now available in stereo
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #162 on: January 17, 2013, 01:14:54 AM »
Bah.  Really, a whole thread over what amounts to semantics?

It's this new thing. We call it "The Internets." :D
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Septipheran

  • Guest
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #163 on: January 17, 2013, 01:17:08 AM »
It's this new thing. We call it "The Internets." :D


Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #164 on: January 17, 2013, 01:47:20 AM »
Bah.  Really, a whole thread over what amounts to semantics?

I don't care if it's an emulator, compatible server software, wholesale reengineering, reimplementation, or whatever.  I don't care if it's being run on a home desktop, a server farm, the original CoH servers, a toaster, or a bronze cauldron of bubbling purple goop heated by the magics of a hundred leprechauns engaging in interpretive dance.

I WANT MY PANCAKING GAME BACK!
Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, anyone attempting to recreate the game will have to care.  It would not be a semantical difference to them as to whether they attempt to emulate the server behavior of the original City of Heroes servers, create from-scratch servers that are compatible with the current City of Heroes game client, or ditch both and attempt to reproduce the City of Heroes look and feel in a completely new game.

The easiest of those tasks is, perhaps ironically, to start completely from scratch.  But it would probably end up being less a reproduction of City of Heroes, and more like playing City of Heroes' kissing cousin.

Tenzhi

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,677
    • My DeviantArt Page
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #165 on: January 17, 2013, 05:02:55 AM »
Bah.  Really, a whole thread over what amounts to semantics?

We've probably had longer threads over less important topics.

Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, anyone attempting to recreate the game will have to care.  It would not be a semantical difference to them as to whether they attempt to emulate the server behavior of the original City of Heroes servers, create from-scratch servers that are compatible with the current City of Heroes game client, or ditch both and attempt to reproduce the City of Heroes look and feel in a completely new game.

Not to bring semantics into a semantical argument, but while the differences in meaning might be important to the practical application they would still be inherently semantical.  The issue there is the tendency to dismiss semantics as unimportant rather than the fact that they are semantics in the first place.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Mister Bison

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
  • *psychotic grin*
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #166 on: January 17, 2013, 07:17:00 AM »
Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, anyone attempting to recreate the game will have to care.  It would not be a semantical difference to them as to whether they attempt to emulate the server behavior of the original City of Heroes servers, create from-scratch servers that are compatible with the current City of Heroes game client, or ditch both and attempt to reproduce the City of Heroes look and feel in a completely new game.

The easiest of those tasks is, perhaps ironically, to start completely from scratch.  But it would probably end up being less a reproduction of City of Heroes, and more like playing City of Heroes' kissing cousin.
There is a fourth option.

Indeed it seems the easiest because it requires the least work. But to emulate the server behaviour is to emulate both its internal and external behaviours, the second of which is the "CoH client-compliance" you're talking about in the from-scratch.

But what are you going to replace the "internal behaviour" of the server with ? You'll have to design a new one. Design "from scratch", an that is going to bring it's whole new sets of problems. Whereas the current game's behaviour is well-defined, maybe somewhat improveable. Still, it's going to be a ifficult task to re-implement with all its quirks.

The really easiest solution ? Make a game-compliant server, and begin with part of the previous behaviour, most of it (combat and leveling without IOs or above). Most of our fellows will scream of joy by then already. Then integrating IOs, incarnates and so on will be clearer at this point.
Yeeessss....

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #167 on: January 17, 2013, 08:57:01 AM »
There is a fourth option.

Indeed it seems the easiest because it requires the least work. But to emulate the server behaviour is to emulate both its internal and external behaviours, the second of which is the "CoH client-compliance" you're talking about in the from-scratch.

But what are you going to replace the "internal behaviour" of the server with ? You'll have to design a new one. Design "from scratch", an that is going to bring it's whole new sets of problems. Whereas the current game's behaviour is well-defined, maybe somewhat improveable. Still, it's going to be a ifficult task to re-implement with all its quirks.

The really easiest solution ? Make a game-compliant server, and begin with part of the previous behaviour, most of it (combat and leveling without IOs or above). Most of our fellows will scream of joy by then already. Then integrating IOs, incarnates and so on will be clearer at this point.

To be frank, you're conflating the software of the game with the data of the game.

Mister Bison

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
  • *psychotic grin*
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #168 on: January 17, 2013, 02:21:00 PM »
To be frank, you're conflating the software of the game with the data of the game.
Oh, so when you want an antivirus software, you don't want the virus definitions (that are data) to go along with it ?

What is a shell script ? Software or data ? Both, data for the script interpreter, software for the writer. Even the interpreter's binary is actually data for the CPU. Even things such as fonts are not really only data anymore these days. My understanding is that software is the kind of data that can be executed by another software or hardware and works on other data, creating another kind of data (plus waste heat, if you want to be thorough).

Do you have a copy of the server "data" ? That's an honest question, because if you have, that could explain you not conflating those when everyone here should want a server+data bundle, nobody here wants the software alone, and will ever speak of "software" alone. Concerning the server data, I assumed long ago that it was going to be lost forever, as it is now. The whole Titan crew did, too, else why ask for all the backup effort in the last months of the game ?

I know you must know these things so let's compare: actually, the client we want a compatible server for, just manages simple things: PC and NPC movement (it does have collision maps since it can do movement prediction and disallows us falling through the floor while jumping, slightly penetrating walls due to delay, etc), PC and NPC stats (HPs, endurance, infamy...), chat (including emotes), dialogues (with NPCs, the market...), PC powers (NPC powers are listed but it doesn't actually need to manage those) and server events (a whole crapton of them: combat log (you rolled...) and effects (stat updates, status update (death)...), animation (and ragdoll), and so on).
So what you need to make the client at least work is a server to (a) receive power, movement, dialogues and chat requests, (b) make the combat and movements tick, and (c) issue the proper event notifications to the client. That is a compliant server, that is a server simulator. Other than that, the logic (or data) is not even relevant ! But that's not what we want in our community server, do we ? What good would be a CoH community server if it never took you to Atlas Park ? This would be an engineering success, but no player would play that (for long). So data is part of the server, at least what it's expected to be and what everybody should try to do.

I don't think we'll be able to recreate everything down to the millimeter-precise spawn points or patrol routes, so in this regard, we won't be able to have CoH back at all. But does it matter really ? So let's put this aside, yes ? At least let's assume we have something equivalent.

Now the real question is: If we had the same dialogues, the same gameplay, the same maps and ennemies, but only mostly the same story arcs (differing only by incomplete dialogues, incorrect maps and ennemies, of which I estimate we have 75% thanks to the ParagonWiki, and 20% more in the people's minds), would it still be City of Heroes (or an emulation thereof) ? If your answer is "yes", then we can do a proper server emulator (if we had the real server files and didn't use them, it wouldn't be a proper emulator anymore), because for the user, the server is a software/hardware part that is needed to play the game he sees as City of Heroes. To help you answer the question, when the devs did rehaul the Hollows, Faultline, the tutorials or the starting zones, or even just the Romulus cinematic, were you still playing something that at least emulated City of Heroes for you ?

tl;dr: no, I don't want just a "community server" just for semantics' sake. I don't want a "server software emulator" either, because that's both impossible and useless. I want a "server emulator", something that replaces the previous City of Heroes server for my client, and with which I can use my client to create an Ice/Kin corruptor, hang out on the chat, and go Blizzard the scream out of some Cimerorians on the Towers.
Yeeessss....

Kyriani

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 299
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #169 on: January 19, 2013, 01:39:36 PM »
It's a macro showing Fry from Futurama squinting his eyes while the text reads "not sure if missing the sarcasm or being sarcastic...".

Kiriani's post strikes me as being quite sarcastic and that is why I posted the macro above. Either I am reading too much into Kiriani's post or you have missed the not so serious tone of their message. :)

I wasn't so much being sarcastic as lightheartedly (and perhaps on the verge of hysterics) begging Arcanaville to use her super brain powers to give us back COH... >_>  I mean she's like a genius (at least compared to me!) and she's the first person that comes to mind when I think of who could bring back COH.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #170 on: January 19, 2013, 08:31:38 PM »
I wasn't so much being sarcastic as lightheartedly (and perhaps on the verge of hysterics) begging Arcanaville to use her super brain powers to give us back COH... >_>  I mean she's like a genius (at least compared to me!) and she's the first person that comes to mind when I think of who could bring back COH.
Reimplementing City of Heroes would require not so much an incredibly smart person so much as someone with an incredible amount of time to commit to the project.  If the actual Paragon programmers ignored the legal issues and attempted to simply rewrite City of Heroes, having already seen it and done it once before (at least parts of it), my guess is that it would still take a couple months.  And that's already knowing what the code will eventually look like (although I suspect there's lots of things they'd want to change in a clean reimplement).

The Project Z people seem to have at least a reasonable plan forward and some good ideas on how to generate a successor game that would at least play reasonably close to CoH.  And if they do their job correctly and the software itself is released to the community, other players could reskin its data - i.e. if either Project Z generates a playable game at all and they've correctly separated engine and data, even if the game they make isn't close enough to City of Heroes for you, someone else could come along and in effect reimplement a close copy of City of Heroes within the Project Z framework.

All the powers, all the gear, all the archetypes in City of Heroes were just data files fed to the game engine.  If Project Z (either of them) has different archetypes, that wouldn't prevent someone else from making a version of the data that has CoH archetypes.  If their version of stealth works differently than CoH that wouldn't prevent someone from implementing something similar in Project Z.  And of course mission content is only what someone writes for it.

There are a lot of challenges facing both Project Z teams, challenges that its not guaranteed they can overcome.  But if they succeed, they will not only have succeeded in making whatever game they choose to implement, they will open the door to lots of other people to make different games with the same tools.  It just has to be *close enough* to make that relatively easy.

Unfortunately, this all takes time.  But although I'm not privvy to either team's internal design discussions, I suspect that while it could take years to "finish" either project, it also took years for City of Heroes to get from alpha to beta to launch to the game were were playing at the end.  If they are smart, they will create suitable landmarks in the project to get, say, a working costume editor followed by a working map server followed by a working sandbox we can fly around followed by simplified combat and missions and so on, so it won't be five years of nothing followed by the release of a completed game, but rather a multiyear playable beta test we can see and use.  To get to that point could take less than a year.

I honestly don't think there's much I could personally do to radically accelerate that schedule.

Little Green Frog

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 246
  • @Little Green Frog
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #171 on: January 19, 2013, 09:10:08 PM »
I wasn't so much being sarcastic as lightheartedly (and perhaps on the verge of hysterics) begging Arcanaville to use her super brain powers to give us back COH... >_>  I mean she's like a genius (at least compared to me!) and she's the first person that comes to mind when I think of who could bring back COH.

No super brain powers are required. Only hard work and determination.

Mister Bison

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
  • *psychotic grin*
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #172 on: January 19, 2013, 10:58:18 PM »
I honestly don't think there's much I could personally do to radically accelerate that schedule.
There is. You could provide definite insight and specifications of how the game worked. Most of it must actually be sitting somewhere on (one of ?) your computer, perhaps waiting for minute amount of rewriting. For total CoH neophytes, it would prove insufficient to recode the game in any framework, but for programmers who also knew the game, I think it would be specifics enough to reduce the reimplementation to a difficulty equivalent of performing a lullaby is to a symphony. Even pseudo scripts would suffice, if they correctly represent the inner behaviour of the server. Most of us can have a good idea of how it worked, but I think nobody as yet, even maybe amongst the developers themselves, do have such a complete and refined idea of how it worked. And we still can have the innocuous hints from the devs themselves, because they read us.

I think I'm ready for "Arcana's Guide to aggro, notification and stealth" for starters. Either that or "Combat loop, enhancements and buffs" ;-)
Yeeessss....

Surelle

  • Guest
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #173 on: January 19, 2013, 11:10:58 PM »
If a hypothetical compatible server needed a hypothetical tester for that boring, repetitive, kinda brainless stuff that no one else wanted to do, please consider me a hypothetical applicant.  I'm currently working only part-time hours, with a good chunk of free time while my hypothetical kids are in their hypothetical school.   :P


Lightslinger

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 277
  • @Lightslinger, Virtue
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #174 on: January 21, 2013, 03:01:04 AM »
I noticed something reading about some popular private servers from WoW and other games, I kept seeing "leaked code" mentioned as to how those projects came to work.

My question, has a complete re-engineering effort like we're (supposedly) attempting ever worked?

On another note, if someone has a contact at NCsoft looking to make some money...hey, we all had at least one villain alt, don't judge.

Septipheran

  • Guest
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #175 on: January 21, 2013, 03:06:02 AM »
I noticed something reading about some popular private servers from WoW and other games, I kept seeing "leaked code" mentioned as to how those projects came to work.

My question, has a complete re-engineering effort like we're (supposedly) attempting ever worked?


Star Wars Galaxies.


http://www.swgemu.com/

Kaiser Tarantula

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 580
  • @Nerva
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #176 on: January 21, 2013, 04:00:21 AM »
I noticed something reading about some popular private servers from WoW and other games, I kept seeing "leaked code" mentioned as to how those projects came to work.

My question, has a complete re-engineering effort like we're (supposedly) attempting ever worked?
Net-7 for Earth and Beyond.

www.net-7.org


herostar

  • Underling
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #177 on: January 22, 2013, 09:47:25 PM »
Why can't a group of Devs do what the folks at SWGEMU.com have done with Star Wars Galaxies? I would kill for a Pre-Enhancement Diversification City of Heroes Emulator.

So no one has really answered my question still. This title is a bit misleading and a turn off. I've followed the SWGEmu project throughout its 9 years, I was around age 14 when they started it. An emulator is a huge undertaking, I've seen hundreds of Devs come and go, thieves stealing project money, and coding organization mistakes that sets the project back years from completion.

It's super worth it though. Seeing a project and people grow, and making new great friends, and with a community like CoH's the most important step is already complete.

So, if anyone were to assemble a Dev team to revive CoH, I would definitely get some advice from SWGEmu.com

The Fifth Horseman

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 961
  • Outside known realities.
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #178 on: January 23, 2013, 01:44:56 AM »
SEGS is aiming at Issue #3, IIRC
We were heroes. We were villains. At the end of the world we all fought as one. It's what we did that defines us.
The end occurred pretty much as we predicted: all servers redlining until midnight... and then no servers to go around.

Somewhere beyond time and space, if you look hard you might find a flash of silver trailing crimson: a lone lost Spartan on his way home.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: Why COH will not get a server emulator.
« Reply #179 on: January 23, 2013, 02:57:21 AM »
So no one has really answered my question still. This title is a bit misleading and a turn off. I've followed the SWGEmu project throughout its 9 years, I was around age 14 when they started it. An emulator is a huge undertaking, I've seen hundreds of Devs come and go, thieves stealing project money, and coding organization mistakes that sets the project back years from completion.

It's super worth it though. Seeing a project and people grow, and making new great friends, and with a community like CoH's the most important step is already complete.

So, if anyone were to assemble a Dev team to revive CoH, I would definitely get some advice from SWGEmu.com

The answer to your question is that there are two separate development teams attempting, to varying degrees, to do what the SWGemu team did, although both teams probably hope to avoid replicating at least five years of drama in the process.