Author Topic: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here  (Read 37530 times)

Knight Light

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #140 on: December 21, 2012, 09:57:02 AM »
But in the eyes of NCsoft management this profit wasn't a good enough reason to withhold the execution. Which is true, because that's what happened.

You cannot state this to a factual degree. You are not privy to NCSoft board meetings  and given their behaviour over the past several months, we do not know that City of Heroes would have been saved from the axe even if it represented 94% of their revenue.

Angry gamers are scary.

This, I'll take your word on. =oP

Nyquil taking effect, g'night.

Little Green Frog

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #141 on: December 21, 2012, 10:03:04 AM »
You cannot state this to a factual degree. You are not privy to NCSoft board meetings  and given their behaviour over the past several months, we do not know that City of Heroes would have been saved from the axe even if it represented 94% of their revenue.

I never stated it would. Instead I pointed out that the profit game made did not trump the reason NCsoft had to close Paragon Studios. In their eyes, at least. There's a difference.

Rae

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #142 on: December 21, 2012, 10:40:49 AM »
If she's wrong, then law enforcement will look into it, figure that out, and everyone goes their merry way.  If she's right, though, then not only may she have helped us, but helped crime victims who have nothing to do with City of Heroes (as well as put some serious egg on the face of her detractors).

So I highly advise that folks neither assume the best nor the worst at this point.  It's why I posted earlier that I'll be interested to see how this turns out, not "let's go get 'em!!!"  I'm not quite ready to take my pitchforks and torches to Seoul yet, but if they're up to no good, I want them to see the justice they deserve.

I know that there's no reason to trust me over anyone else in here, but if it helps:

1) The information sent to the FBI wasn't a finger-pointing-NC-Soft-are-totally-doing-this-arrest-them-NOW rage fest, as much as a 'this system has been set up in such a way that it could be exploited by bad people. You guys may want to take a look at it and make sure that it isn't the case' piece of information.

They might think it's worth looking at. They might not.

2) I've seen the email that Joe sent to VV confirming that there had been speculation in Korea that payment systems such as the ones used by gaming companies could be open to abuse.

I really wouldn't want anyone to think that VV worded the information she gave to me, or her conversation with Joe as 'NC SOFT are doing this!' as much as 'the payment systems used by some gaming companies could, in theory, be used illegitimately and we'd like you to make sure that it's not the case.' The email sent to the FBI was sent as a similar tone, I promise.
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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #143 on: December 21, 2012, 11:36:24 AM »
I know that there's no reason to trust me over anyone else in here, but if it helps:

1) The information sent to the FBI wasn't a finger-pointing-NC-Soft-are-totally-doing-this-arrest-them-NOW rage fest, as much as a 'this system has been set up in such a way that it could be exploited by bad people. You guys may want to take a look at it and make sure that it isn't the case' piece of information.

They might think it's worth looking at. They might not.

2) I've seen the email that Joe sent to VV confirming that there had been speculation in Korea that payment systems such as the ones used by gaming companies could be open to abuse.

I really wouldn't want anyone to think that VV worded the information she gave to me, or her conversation with Joe as 'NC SOFT are doing this!' as much as 'the payment systems used by some gaming companies could, in theory, be used illegitimately and we'd like you to make sure that it's not the case.' The email sent to the FBI was sent as a similar tone, I promise.
A) Who's Joe?  The reporter?

II) This has a much softer spin than the vibe I got off of VV's posts.  Hers made it seem like it was NCSoft's item stores specifically rather than a wider potential problem in the industry as well as a implied intent on how the stores handle the monies passing through them.  As if they were intentionally designed with illegality in mind rather than gamed for nefarious (I seem to like that word tonight) purposes.
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Rae

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #144 on: December 21, 2012, 12:26:37 PM »
A) Who's Joe?  The reporter?

II) This has a much softer spin than the vibe I got off of VV's posts.  Hers made it seem like it was NCSoft's item stores specifically rather than a wider potential problem in the industry as well as a implied intent on how the stores handle the monies passing through them.  As if they were intentionally designed with illegality in mind rather than gamed for nefarious (I seem to like that word tonight) purposes.

A) Yes. Well, sorta. It's the name he told us to call him, probably so he didn't have to deal with me mangling the spelling of his name when we were conversing.

B) I can't really answer for VV on whether that's what she believes, but in passing the information on, I was as careful as I could be that we weren't accusing people of ANYTHING, just that it was something we were concerned could be misused. In the correspondence VV and I had, she was worried about it coming off like a 'tin hat conspiracy theory', but the confirmation from the Korean journalist that it was something other people had speculated on, as well as the recommendation that VV had that it was worth reporting her concerns was enough for me to feel that it was worth passing on for someone well above my pay-grade to take a look into.

Obviously VV has been really vocal in the campaign, and I think (but please don't quote me on this) that it might have been why she ran it past my eyes - to make sure that her feelings about the closure of COH hadn't coloured her concerns that this was a good way to make money disappear.  Obviously, I'm here, so I'm not NC Soft's biggest fan in the world, but I've tried to be rational and non-venomous towards them as much as I can be. 

VV's been battling for us non-stop for three months, she's been the go-to chick for interviews, she's been the person with the line to Paragon Studios and the person that people are seeking answers from on a non-stop basis, every single day.

It's a lot of pressure for anyone to deal with, and she's intelligent enough to know that her view of NC Soft has been skewed by this which is why she contacted the Korean journalist and the PI first, to see if it was worth taking further and then once she had taken information from them, she ran it past me as well.  I suspect she may have asked me to submit the information because I've tried to avoid being too venomous towards NC Soft and also because I'm reasonably used to dealing with the police, government agencies and all the rest of it through my day job.

I also believe her concerns were worth raising with people who are equipped to investigate such things, but I put it across in a way that didn't point fingers at anyone. I know I'm just one of many voices here, and you don't have reason to believe me over anyone else, but I hope you can believe that more than anything, I don't want to see the SaveCOH campaign, or City of Heroes' legacy damaged.

I work as a journalist in the UK (..not one of the red-top, phone hacking, Rupert Murdoch ones) and I know that it's a spectacularly bad idea to accuse people of things without proof, and that sometimes it's really just best to raise concerns with the right people, even if it's just to set your own mind at ease.

I really hope it sets peoples minds at rest a little.

I'd now like to propose a big group hug, and perhaps a rousing rendition of Silent Night, which I've always found to be rather calming.
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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #145 on: December 21, 2012, 12:30:43 PM »
So really it's nothing that hadn't been pointed out before or even recently.  Just that it may have now spread into Korean run MMOs.

I don't doubt VV's commitment or passion to the cause.  It's just that sometimes such devotion can lead you down a path where objectivity is abandoned and where asking legitimate questions be interpreted as seditious behavior.  When you demonize an individual, a company or an entire group of people, that you only see the negative and only assume the worst motivations to describe their behavior, then you have lost something important.

I was on another board, a UK PC tech one and somehow the company of General Electric was brought up, I think they had a new method to cool electronics other than the traditional fan and heatsink, a piezoelectric bellows IIRC, very thin, quite and generates a lot of airflow and heat transference.  A person chimed in "oh the company that invented the minigun".  Now that's not the first thing I think of when I think of General Electric.  Jet engines, turbine driven power generators, MRI devices, household appliances, stealing Tesla's thunder but not the minigun.  But to this person, GE's claim to fame is the minigun, a weapon found often in "violent video games" and therefore part of the problem of gun violence in America.  As if we can buy a minigun in your average gun store, gun show or from a catalog (guess they watched Commando and Kick-Ass to many times and believe what they saw).
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 12:56:09 PM by FatherXmas »
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Rae

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #146 on: December 21, 2012, 12:31:38 PM »
Exactly that. And nice finds on the articles!  :)
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Globetrotter

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #147 on: December 21, 2012, 12:49:38 PM »
I'd now like to propose a big group hug, and perhaps a rousing rendition of Silent Night, which I've always found to be rather calming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUthEE_gR_w
Gutta cavat lapidem, non vi, sed saepe cadendo.

Little Green Frog

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #148 on: December 21, 2012, 12:53:26 PM »
I'd now like to propose a big group hug

I love the idea, but I've been told touching frogs may cause warts. :(

Knight Light

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #149 on: December 21, 2012, 01:29:28 PM »
I never stated it would. Instead I pointed out that the profit game made did not trump the reason NCsoft had to close Paragon Studios. In their eyes, at least. There's a difference.

That isn't something you are able to point out. You don't know what is "in their eyes." What I'm saying is that your statement presumes that there is some mythical number that may have saved the game. You don't know what is "not enough" and you don't know what is "sufficient" and none of us know that either of those variables at all entered into the decision to shut CoH down. It's logical to think that a business would take factors like this into account and if you have some evidence besides the actual shutdown that clearly states that "not enough" was ever weighed against their actual decision to close City of Heroes then I cede. However, if you don't, I believe this is an argument point that should never be stated as fact until such time that a verifiable source can be claimed.

Perhaps it's semantics but semantics do exist for a reason.

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #151 on: December 21, 2012, 03:11:11 PM »
Exactly that on the MMOs. And nice find on the articles!  :)
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Little Green Frog

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #152 on: December 21, 2012, 03:30:07 PM »
What I'm saying is that your statement presumes that there is some mythical number that may have saved the game.

This is simply not true. I have never said anything like that and it was never my point. Please, do not put words in my mouth.

Starsman

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #153 on: December 21, 2012, 03:59:13 PM »

Out of topic? Maybe, but hey, some are already freaked out in this thread!
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

Illusionss

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #154 on: December 21, 2012, 04:23:26 PM »
Angry gamers are scary.

Even if there is no basis for the claims of money laundering, after this NCsoft will start seeing us as a real thorn in their side. If everything plays out just right, it will lead to them reconsider their stance on the IP. But before that... Let's brace for the impact.

If only NCSoftheaded cared about ANYthing we had to say.

Unfortunately, they don't. Positive, negative.... they just do not care. And they're already not going to let that IP go, so what would they do now? Double down on not letting it go? A negative of a negative.... basic deduction skills tell me we're not getting it anyway, so what they think is really of little concern.

Knight Light

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #155 on: December 21, 2012, 05:22:06 PM »
What I'm saying is that your statement presumes that there is some mythical number that may have saved the game.

This is simply not true. I have never said anything like that and it was never my point. Please, do not put words in my mouth.

I'm sorry; I didn't, you did.

But in the eyes of NCsoft management this profit wasn't a good enough reason to withhold the execution.

Whether you meant to or not, your sentence implies that the profit generated by CoH actually was weighed against their decision to shut down. I'm not saying it wasn't, I'm saying we don't know. Misinterpretation is precisely why I'm saying stick to what can be verified. There's nothing wrong with speculation, just don't state it as though it is fact.

cforciea

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #156 on: December 21, 2012, 05:24:23 PM »
That is besides the point.

I think that's the more important point here besides quibbling over what the term "grindy" means. From the perspective of helping the SaveCOH movement, complaining about Guild Wars 2's gameplay doesn't help anything, so I think we should stay away from that.

Quote
Sweetie, NCSoft will kick you, me and every last other player in the game out of GW2 AT ANY TIME THAT SUITS THEIR FANCY. And that is why people are mad. They don't need rhyme, reason or financial incentive: if they decide to pull the plug, they will pull it even if there are negative financial consequences.

I think its a thing others need to know about.

I am fully and painfully aware that NCSoft doesn't care about me. My risk evaluation in being willing to spend time on Guild Wars 2 takes that into account. And I'm not saying you should get that word out, I'm just asking that people be tactful about it. Calmly explaining to people the damage that NCSoft has done is going to get us worlds farther than impinging on the character of any particular group of people.

RE: the whole money laundering argument

I think my main confusion here is why VV was compelled to say anything about filing a report with the FBI. If you felt like you were ethically compelled to make a report, I applaud your going out of the way to do the right thing, but I think we're doing a worse and worse job over time staying on message here in these forums. These boards are public, and borderline accusing NCSoft of money laundering probably isn't doing anything to help our image (and probably not doing much to help convince Disney, either). I was under the impression that our goal here is still to convince NCSoft that they should care about what they are taking away from us, and that it is the rational business decision to let the IP move on to someplace else because of the positive swing in PR it would generate for them.

Posting about reporting NCSoft the FBI doesn't make any strategic sense. We can switch to a mindset of causing enough damage that NCSoft gives in so we stop burning their house down, but that's a line we can't really come back from if we cross it. Is that where we are? Because otherwise I don't see how talking about reporting NCSoft to the FBI could possibly gain us.

Little Green Frog

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #157 on: December 21, 2012, 05:51:55 PM »
I'm sorry; I didn't, you did.

Whether you meant to or not, your sentence implies that the profit generated by CoH actually was weighed against their decision to shut down. I'm not saying it wasn't, I'm saying we don't know. Misinterpretation is precisely why I'm saying stick to what can be verified. There's nothing wrong with speculation, just don't state it as though it is fact.

Well, since you are actively ignoring my attempts at explaining my point of view, even though I believe I explained it well enough the first time, I must assume we are not going to reach any conclusion. That's fine. But since you are bringing up semantics, I just want to point out that written language is not a mathematic formula and some leeway in interpratation generally helps both sides to reach understanding. An algorythmic precision of if-thens is useful, especially if you are an attorney, but makes for a very boring conversation.

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HarvesterOfEyes

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #159 on: December 21, 2012, 07:02:11 PM »
Not originally a Christmas tune, but as long as you don't savvy Ukrainska the lyrics aren't an issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMTHbZ0Rf4s