Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here

[downix]

Whose?  Are you talking NCoin?  They can't even share them between Aion and L2.  I also imagine a store infrastructure developed for the games that were simply language ported here would have an infrastructure designed by the home office and wouldn't be as easily integrated into a game that their developers back in Korea hadn't seen the codebase for.  Plus we don't know how different our player database in structure to the player databases for their Korean games.  A more intentionally generic solution for sale here may have been more straight forward than trying to wedge their existing store into our game, again due to database design issues.

ArenaNet has their own proxy currency cards for GW2 as well as master account system (as well as forum software, no vbulletin).  GW2 is not part of master account system that CoH was, Aion, L2 and GW1 are.  Sounds like ArenaNet wants to make sure they can sever ties cleanly (since it's also not NCSoft that is going represent GW2 in China).

You could purchase items for CoH before F2P is what I was referring to. That is the in-place system. Not talking NCoin, not talking anything but the pre-existing upgrade system which was in place long before the Paragon Market ever existed.

[TonyV]

Well...we know that Paragon was negotiating to buy itself out right up to the moment when suddenly they were closed down.

Point me to an article that says that, not what you were told on the DL from "insiders".

She probably can't, with NDAs and all.  But I can confirm that I was told this by multiple insiders, people who would know. From what I've heard, some negotiations actually took place before the announcement, and some later after the SaveCoH efforts kicked in and convinced the team that the CoH player base was even more dedicated than they had previously thought.

But I really, really have to say that folks have got to get out of the mindset of, "We need this firmly documented in stone before we lend any credence to it."  The fact is that due to NDAs and other contracts in place, it is highly unlikely that anyone from the former Paragon Studios management team is going to come out and state things as facts.  I'm not saying that you have to believe every rumor and allegation that comes out from anyone, but taking the above claim as an example, one of three things is true:

1) VV and I are outright lying to you.
2) People we've talked to, our "insiders," are lying to us.
3) Somewhere along the way, something has gotten twisted so as to be misconstrued and information is being passed along that might not be 100% true, but has some element of truth to it.
4) It's actually true.

Given that multiple people are saying this, I would hope that you don't think that VV and I are in collusion to deliberately lie to people.  It is possible that our "insiders" are lying to us, but then you've got to ask yourself whether you trust the former managers of Paragon Studios or the management at NCsoft more.  Yes, they're both biased.  Yes, both might have an agenda.  But I know who I'd cast my lot with as being more honest any day.

Possibility #3 is a tough one, and I've seen several "facts" that are based on some simple misunderstandings.  All I can say is that I was told unambiguously that those negotiations were taking place, and that the timeframe VV stated is mostly correct--mostly in that there were actually also negotiations following the closure of Paragon Studios.

All in all, I hope that when most people objectively process the information that they've heard and accounted for the reliability of the people who are giving it to them, they'll come to the conclusion that #4 if the most likely possibility.  Maybe they aren't 100% sure of it.  Hopefully people aren't believing everything they read blindly and that's a good thing.  But it puzzles me that given the evidence, people choose to believe #1, #2, or #3 more strongly than #4.  Don't get me wrong, that's their prerogative, but it's also my prerogative to say, "Are you kidding me?"

Why would/should they keep them?  Some of us would like our master accounts wiped as well.

Two good reasons: 1) Because any sale of the City of Heroes IP would be much more valuable with the customer database intact, and 2) for legal reasons in case they get sued for some reason, they'll have records of who's who and what's what.  To be frank, having worked in a large megacorporate environment for almost 15 years, the only reason I've ever seen a company deliberately delete information is so that in court, they can say "we do not have that information" without committing perjury.  Believe you me, when it comes to data retention, corporations are positively anal about it and keep everything just in case they need to use it some day--unless, again, they know that information can hurt them.

To be honest, I didn't know that as soon as the servers were shut off, NCsoft began wiping customer accounts.  I'd like more information about where that came from, if it's available.  But if it actually happened, that would raise a huge red flag to me.  It's not illegal, but it's awful suspicious in my eyes, kind of like companies that suddenly start shredding piles of paperwork that could link them back to operations they don't want to see the light of day.

[Codewalker]

This may, Xenu forbid, actually be a step to allow NCSoft's western groups to dictate their own choices in marketing and customer management than simply be local language droids that can't provide cultural insight back to the mothership.

I really, seriously doubt that.

More likely it's a move to make it look like that's what they're doing to try to appease investors who are beating them up over their failure in the west, while really just sending some puppets to run the new division and make sure they don't deviate from what the execs back home are telling them to do.

[FatherXmas]

I understand Tony but it's just too easy for anybody to make up facts and say that they were told by some unnamed insider that contradicts publicly available information.  While I'm sure you and VV were told what you were told on the DL by "insiders in the know", that doesn't prevent others from doing the same.

Also what if VV's reporter friend is part of some NCSoft stock shorting scheme and is using her as a unwitting accomplice to perpetrate the spread of a false rumor to manipulate NCSoft stock down so the short sellers can churn the stock, from a short to a buy and make money on the way down and then on the way up when the rumor is debunked (yes like Trading Places except with bad people).  Again this goes back to the widely reported Valve rumor earlier in the year but that was way to easy to disprove because other party's were involved so it didn't affect the stock price by much or for long.  However a rumor about illegal dealings and being under investigations is more difficult to disprove (disproving a negative) and at the very least take more time to do so.  We've already seen what a comment from VV in the Korean press can do to NCSoft's stock price.

I don't think "I was just repeating a rumor I heard" would hold up as a defense in a libel case.  I would hate to see VV brought up libel because our little echo box of rage simply made it too easy for someone to use us for their nefarious purposes.

[Starsman]

Two good reasons: 1) Because any sale of the City of Heroes IP would be much more valuable with the customer database intact, and 2) for legal reasons in case they get sued for some reason, they'll have records of who's who and what's what.  To be frank, having worked in a large megacorporate environment for almost 15 years, the only reason I've ever seen a company deliberately delete information is so that in court, they can say "we do not have that information" without committing perjury.  Believe you me, when it comes to data retention, corporations are positively anal about it and keep everything just in case they need to use it some day--unless, again, they know that information can hurt them.

It is my understanding (have to double check) that public traded companies, by law, must keep 7 years of transactions and communications. Not complying with this has it's own set of penalties. But it's not a choice to keep the information, it's a legal obligation that I think started with the Enron fiasco.

[Starsman]

I don't think "I was just repeating a rumor I heard" would hold up as a defense in a libel case.  I would hate to see VV brought up libel because our little echo box of rage simply made it too easy for someone to use us for their nefarious purposes.

So far the statements have not been "they are doing it" but "the system was built in a way that facilitates it". If VV has actual knowledge of the system, and it is true that transactions are deleted in the way she noted, and an investigation proves its true, even if there was no laundering you can't accuse her of libel.

[dwturducken]

Virtually anything that comes from illegal sources.  That is the point of laundering money; it's usually done at the behest of organized crime.  The company that is facilitating the laundering then passes it back, minus the share they get for doing the laundering, to the original source via a number of ways, including "investing" in front companies.

OK, as a radically moderate veteran, I take this sort of stuff with a fairly sizable grain of salt.  There are things not being said, here, but they are very pointedly not being said, and that sort of accusation has been used to excuse a lot of reprehensible acts over the first decade of this century. Make no mistake, VV. While I admit to not being a "fan" in the technical sense, I have great respect for your body of work, and you had done nothing but earn my respect even before TF Wildcard (I signed my Xmas card with about a dozen alts each, BTW; the one to Iger got Mr. Credible, Animatronic Lincoln, and Darkwing Turducken, just for effect). I have to call a flag on the play, here.

I understand where you're coming from in losing the game. Not in the "I've been there sense," but in the way a psychologist can only commiserate with the plane crash survivor. I understand, but I can't understand. Still, this thread is going to a place where we could really get ourselves in trouble. I'm not saying you're wrong, but we need to take a collective breath before something gets said that could hurt us. You've been very careful to this point, and I appreciate that, but there is a line that none of us can cross that leads to slander and libel, at this point. Finding the proof that mitigates that appears to be in the works, but, until then, we have to tread lightly, lest we find ourselves under the microscope of an extremely well-funded legal team. One that we cannot match.

Also,

I distinctly recall DW wondering why a third party store had to suddenly become involved, when it would have been more reasonable to link directly to your NCSoft Account.

is this me? Cuz if it is, I may just squee like a 14 year old girl who just won tickets to a Justin Bieber concert.

[Electric-Knight]

I don't think there's much anything else worth saying other than that I am eager to see (if they deem an investigation is needed) what they find.

And (okay, I guess I found something else to say!), while there are absolutely several reasons to use extreme caution in what is said about such things... I just want to say that it takes people (actual people, not the imaginary someone elses) to report things that they believe are strong possibilities.

Anyway... we'll see!

[dwturducken]

(okay, I guess I found something else to say!)

Of course you do! You're a "Jabber=Wacky!"

I don't know if it's been said, but I'm glad you're one of the ones to come here from the "official forum." Your posts were always level-headed, especially toward the end. I just wish I had participated more, there.

[FatherXmas]

You could purchase items for CoH before F2P is what I was referring to. That is the in-place system. Not talking NCoin, not talking anything but the pre-existing upgrade system which was in place long before the Paragon Market ever existed.

While true it's a lot different selling DLC packs that set secret global badges unlocking features than the infrastructure required for a fully functional item shop featuring thousands of items paid for with a proxy currency.

There's a reason why the bulk of prepaid proxy currency cards are fronted by InComm's FastCard system.  Why deal with the hassles of getting your proxy currency out to thousands of POS locations and build the infrastructure that tracks the activation at all of those individual retailers when you can pay someone else to do all that for you while providing you a simple way to check the activations state of a particular card and it's value (which is probably part of the hash code).  Sure it costs you some but it's relatively painless compared to doing it all yourself, getting it into all those stores, writing the software to integrate into those stores POS systems to track purchased cards, etc.

I can see the same reasons for purchasing a item store service.  You OK the look of the user interface, which is simply a customize web page, provide the graphics, description and cost of each item and they take care of the messy transactions and tracking.  All you need to dois open an in game window to a custom web browser that goes only to your store front.  You then can query the store's database for what the player had purchased for their account while they are logged in while not having to worry about modifying your existing on disk player information to handle store items.  Honestly the last thing any MMO game needs is the player database getting corrupt due to a bug introduced because you added some major feature into your game.

[Victoria Victrix]

I did my duty as the law enforcement specialist (a PI) said I should do.  I had everything I knew and what I suspected sent to the appropriate law enforcement authorities.  If he didn't think there was something in it, he wouldn't have told me to send it to the FBI.

If people don't act at least that far on their suspicions, then few crimes outside of "caught redhanded" would ever be solved.

I'm not going to say or explain anything more when so much of what I said is either being pointed at as being crazy, lying or both. 

[Terwyn]

I did my duty as the law enforcement specialist (a PI) said I should do.  I had everything I knew and what I suspected sent to the appropriate law enforcement authorities.  If he didn't think there was something in it, he wouldn't have told me to send it to the FBI.

If people don't act at least that far on their suspicions, then few crimes outside of "caught redhanded" would ever be solved.

I'm not going to say or explain anything more when so much of what I said is either being pointed at as being crazy, lying or both.

*Nods*

One must follow the evidence, where-ever it may lead. If there is beyond reasonable doubt regarding potential wrongdoing, it is one's duty to ensure it is investigated by those in proper authority, who would have the necessary resources to determine the truth, so far as it is possible.

In hindsight, much of what you've theorized matches my own observations.

[dwturducken]

Don't misunderstand. I'm not questioning your actions or motives. We just need to watch our rhetoric. OJ was acquitted of murder but still managed to lose the suit for civil damages. I'm not telling you that we should back off, just be cautious. And a lot of extraneous back-pedalling and butt-covering. 

[FatherXmas]

I'm not going to say or explain anything more when so much of what I said is either being pointed at as being crazy, lying or both.

I'm not suggesting you are either crazy and/or lying.  I suggesting that your feelings toward NCSoft could make you vulnerable to being used by those with less honorable motives.

This thread started with a request the thumbs up an Amazon review of Guild Wars 2 where the post was not about the game itself but NCSoft's track record with closing down MMOs they don't want to deal with anymore.  The original discussion was about whether a post about a product's parent company should have anything to do with a review about the product itself.  Who turned it into a "I heard Mr. Johnson down the street beats his dog/wife/is a devil worshiper/porn addict/child molester/cheats on his taxes/tosses "little people"/a Russian spy/has bodies buried in the back yard" rumor thread because it wasn't me.

And I'm doing this out of any liking of NCSoft.  I simply dislike unfounded rumors being spread by a grapevine.  This summer I was approached by a neighbor in my condo complex asking if I had any mischief done to my property because they did (their unit isn't near mine) and he was absolutely sure it was the boy who lived in unit X because "he's a bad seed".  When I asked about proof all he had were rumors he heard about incidents that occurred in the past and a recent police visit (the visit was because he was spotted by the officer riding his new motor scooter around the complex without a helmet).  Upon further discussions with other neighbors it was confirmed that for some unknown reason this unit owner had a thing about the boy and his family (their unit isn't near this guy's unit either).  I went to our monthly board meeting just to make sure this jerk wasn't going to accuse the boy to our condo board.  I simply can't stand it when people suggest or outright make accusations with no sharable proof.  "Well that's what I heard" is a statement that simply infuriates me.

[dwturducken]

"I heard Mr. Johnson down the street beats his dog/wife/is a devil worshiper/porn addict/child molester/cheats on his taxes/tosses "little people"/a Russian spy/has bodies buried in the back yard."

You got somethin' against Dwarftossers?

 

[Electric-Knight]

Of course you do! You're a "Jabber=Wacky!"

I don't know if it's been said, but I'm glad you're one of the ones to come here from the "official forum." Your posts were always level-headed, especially toward the end. I just wish I had participated more, there.

Awww  Thank you so very much
I'm glad someone enjoys my occasional contribution.
Honestly, I am so glad to be here and stay connected to the people here. I don't honestly think I realized how much I enjoyed the forum community (warts and all... well most of 'em anyway) until the announcement. ANYWAY... so glad to be here (although, I hope it becomes there again, in some fashion, haha).

[TonyV]

I did my duty as the law enforcement specialist (a PI) said I should do.  I had everything I knew and what I suspected sent to the appropriate law enforcement authorities.  If he didn't think there was something in it, he wouldn't have told me to send it to the FBI.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.  If VV suspects foul play, then it's her civic duty to try to make sure it gets addressed.  I don't know what all she's seen and heard, so I can't really judge where on the spectrum she is between "Oh my god, this is shocking!" and "I'll get those evil bastards!", but she's not stupid, and I really don't think she'd file a false report or escalate this like she has merely out of spite.  Unlike most of us here, she's got an honest-to-god reputation at stake outside of our little community.

If she's wrong, then law enforcement will look into it, figure that out, and everyone goes their merry way.  If she's right, though, then not only may she have helped us, but helped crime victims who have nothing to do with City of Heroes (as well as put some serious egg on the face of her detractors).

So I highly advise that folks neither assume the best nor the worst at this point.  It's why I posted earlier that I'll be interested to see how this turns out, not "let's go get 'em!!!"  I'm not quite ready to take my pitchforks and torches to Seoul yet, but if they're up to no good, I want them to see the justice they deserve.

[Knight Light]

I know this was pages ago and I apologize if it's already been completely addressed, I'm afraid I've come down with something, I'm getting more sick by the minute and simply can't continue reading tonight but I wanted to respond to this directly.

I know Paragon was making money. There was profit and they had no reason to expect the closure. But in the eyes of NCsoft management this profit wasn't a good enough reason to withhold the execution. Which is true, because that's what happened. No conspiracy theory here.

You don't know this. It cannot be verified by anyone here. There is no data to support this statement.

Given that NCSoft is not making any sense in it's decisions even to business analysts, there is absolutely no indication that they would have kept City of Heroes running even if it was the most profitable game on their roster.

When making statements such as this one, please stick to what you can prove or state that you are speculating.

[Little Green Frog]

Angry gamers are scary.

Even if there is no basis for the claims of money laundering, after this NCsoft will start seeing us as a real thorn in their side. If everything plays out just right, it will lead to them reconsider their stance on the IP. But before that... Let's brace for the impact.

[Little Green Frog]

I know this was pages ago and I apologize if it's already been completely addressed, I'm afraid I've come down with something, I'm getting more sick by the minute and simply can't continue reading tonight but I wanted to respond to this directly.

You don't know this. It cannot be verified by anyone here. There is no data to support this statement.

Given that NCSoft is not making any sense in it's decisions even to business analysts, there is absolutely no indication that they would have kept City of Heroes running even if it was the most profitable game on their roster.

When making statements such as this one, please stick to what you can prove or state that you are speculating.

I don't know what? That the game was making money? It was stated numerous times by Paragon Studio employees, including Melissa Bianco. Or that the game was shut down regardless? They closed the game even though it was making profit. We don't know much, but those are facts. I am really at a loss about what you are trying to argue over.