What's the difference between Heroes and Villains and the Phoenix Project?

[sindyr]

Like the subject says, what's the difference between Heroes and Villains and the Phoenix Project?  I just want to play a game just like CoX, mechanically.

[Minotaur]

I could give a sensible answer or a snarky one, the sensible one is probably better, personal opinion only.

H&V is probably going to be closer to CoH both in lore and mechanics although for legal reasons the intellectual property will have to be different.

TPP is probably more ambitious and going to be closer to CoH2, keeping the feel, but somewhat further away.

Be interested to see whether others feel this is fair.

[downix]

I could give a sensible answer or a snarky one, the sensible one is probably better, personal opinion only.

H&V is probably going to be closer to CoH both in lore and mechanics although for legal reasons the intellectual property will have to be different.

TPP is probably more ambitious and going to be closer to CoH2, keeping the feel, but somewhat further away.

Be interested to see whether others feel this is fair.

That just about sums it up for me.

[sindyr]

Well, this bums me out even more.  From the vibes I am picking up, TPP (The Phoenix Project) has a lot of support, but isn't apparently going to really be CoH, it's going to be some folks ideas on what they would do if they made their own superhero game.  And HaV (Heroes and Villains) seems to be the game I want to play, but doesn't seem to have nearly as much support, backing, and personnel.

So that's upsetting.

You see, the thing is, IMO City of Heroes circa Issue 24 was virtually PERFECT.  I mean, *practically* perfect - it had its issues, but it was fun, playable, awesome.  It was the pinnacle of not only superhero MMOs, IMO, but ALL MMOs - possibly all video games.  (Keep in mind that I speaking from my own perspective here.)

When you have something that good, you don't reinvent it.  You protect it and guard it.  Here a VERY *tiny* list of some of what I loved about the game:

-Always being able to get any recipe I needed, even the purps, on the market
-being able to take SuperSpeed, throw a +Stealth IO in it, and having full Invisibility.
-the way it doesn't matter if the baddie is level 50 and I am level 1, invis still works - ie, level range does not affect Perception.
-slotting IO sets for insane bonuses to Recharge, to Defense, Global Damage, etc.
-Being able to build a stalker that was Def capped to even Incarnate content.
-Being able to build a blaster that was Def capped to 1-50 content.
-franken-slotting IOs to get a lot out of few enhance slots.
-using mids and spending one or two weeks researching and building my character before even creating him in game
-bringing a character to an ultimate place with power selection and IO use to be able to basically have almost capped recharge and so much endurance (via +recov or powers like transference/stamina) that I basically can fire all my powers as fast as they come up, furiously
-having so many build choices, not just in terms of ATs but Primary and Secondaries that feel and play completely differently that although I had 20+ levels 50s, I felt like I could make another 20 without repeating gameplay experience, allowing me to design a character, take him from 1 to 50 (through both solo newspaper mishes which I loved and pickup groups), then permanently shelve him and start over again.
-And having amazing ATs with each being very different, unique gameplay, and interesting AT powers - like the latest Defiance or Domination.  (Domination, which I *perma'd*, btw.)
-and the Issue 24 blaster changes were going to perfect blasters!  More range, better snipes, crashless nukes, more survivability!

To put this all another way, I guess looking around at the other MMOs and such, I am not a standard gamer.  I don't want challenge, I want fun!  I don't want to be tested, I want to easily overpower my opposition.  And above all, I want my MMO deaths to be extremely rare *without* having to compromise my playstyle and act uber cautious or water down my xp/minute.

City gave me all of that.  With judicious power choices, clever slotting, leaning on IOs, and basically leveraging everything added to the game for the last 8 years, I could make a character that almost never died - that even had built in safety nets so even if *everything* went to crap, my character wouldn't die.  Even during pickup team teamwipes, I don't generally perish.  And not only that, with my Numina's and my Miracle's, with my 5 Luck of the Gambler's, my Kismet, my Positron's Blast sets and everything else, I got my powers enhanced to max (diminishing returns) while *also* getting amazing global stats.

I was able to build Blasters, Corruptors, Dominators, Brutes, Masterminds, Stalkers, and Controllers that in any other game would be considered way overpowered.

But in this game I could have my cake and eat it too.  With clever building, I could be extremely safe and extremely powerful.

And I think the chances of anyone making a game like that again from scratch are very very low.

One last example:  One of my favorite expereinces was in playing a Mind/Fire Dominator.  By level 8, I had Mesmerize, Dominate, and Confuse, meaning that when soloing in a newspaper (or radio) mission, I could immediately shutdown 3 baddies, and then begin beating up their helpless selves with FIRE.  While they could do NOTHING.

This to me, is fun.  (And when I finally got perma-dominate courtesy of Hasten and a lot of IOs, I could do that to bosses too!)

What's not fun for me is the anxious uncertainty of facing an in game challenge that I don't know I can powerfully handle.  No, City gave me the closest thing to godmode, and unless some makes a copy of City or brings it back, I am probably utterly screwed.

And that sucks.

[Minotaur]

Wait to see what develops, I'm sort of participating in both efforts so desperately trying to be fair and I don't think your characterisation is quite right.

The IP has to be different, NCSoft owns that.

If the mechanics, look and feel are too close to CoH, there is a lawsuit danger too, so you can't just straight up mimic the powersets.

There was a difference of creative direction between one of the main people on what became TPP and the rest of the team leaders, so she went off to create HaV. She is also using a different engine for the game, and I'm not technical enough to know exactly what that's going to mean, but I do know that the engine she's using was rejected by the TPP team.

Wait to see where the games go, my suspicion is that you will be able to get godmode in either, but not at +3x8 (standard for several of my toons) like you could do in CoH.

[Megajoule]

sindyr:
Oh, see, that's all gameplay.  Difficulty, mechanics, stuff like that. No one here cares or is talking about that stuff. 
It's all about the lore, and wanting to do it Better, or As Close As Possible Without Getting Sued.
All those ways you came up with to increase the size of your epeen, to be uber, untouchable, invincible?
No one cares.
  

[sindyr]

If the mechanics, look and feel are too close to CoH, there is a lawsuit danger too, so you can't just straight up mimic the powersets.

As I understand it - and I freely admit I may be quite wrong:

You can't copy the power's name, unless it's quite generic.  Blazing Bolt would be renamed, perhaps, Fire's Arrow.

You can't copy the animation or art assets, or the sounds - so new animations, sound effects, etc would have to be created.

You CAN reverse engineer and copy the mechanics, which are NOT protected - so your new Fire's Arrow, which still looks like an impressive long range and intense aimed fire attack albeit not like Blazing Bolt can nonetheless do EXACTLY the same damage with EXACTLY the same secondary effects (in this case, a DoT.)

In other words, you can xerox all mechanics, you just need to modify the names and art assets.

We *could* have a CoX clone, legally, under those conditions - and if the new art was up to snuff, it would be just as fun and work just the same.

[sindyr]

It's all about the lore, and wanting to do it Better, or As Close As Possible Without Getting Sued.

Lore is fluff, I pay no attention to it.

As I was saying...

[Mister Bison]

An answer was here for those who wanted to read the long Opening Post

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6724.0.html

[Minotaur]

As I understand it - and I freely admit I may be quite wrong:

You can't copy the power's name, unless it's quite generic.  Blazing Bolt would be renamed, perhaps, Fire's Arrow.

You can't copy the animation or art assets, or the sounds - so new animations, sound effects, etc would have to be created.

You CAN reverse engineer and copy the mechanics, which are NOT protected - so your new Fire's Arrow, which still looks like an impressive long range and intense aimed fire attack albeit not like Blazing Bolt can nonetheless do EXACTLY the same damage with EXACTLY the same secondary effects (in this case, a DoT.)

In other words, you can xerox all mechanics, you just need to modify the names and art assets.

We *could* have a CoX clone, legally, under those conditions - and if the new art was up to snuff, it would be just as fun and work just the same.

You have to be VERY careful, the problem is that if NCSoft don't like it and think you've ripped off their game, they can sue and even if you win eventually, your game can be crippled by the costs and delay caused by the case. This is one of the problems with the american legal system, a man is considered innocent until proven broke.

[GoreckiMike]

I Liked Liked City of Heroes/Villains. I believe one could created a Good Good MMO minus the specific CoX IP.
1) Superpowers are Superpowers, regardless of IP, e.g. the Flash does not "Own" Super speed.
2) Though I will miss the Signature Heroes & Villains, you cannot create a new "City" if it is attached to the old "City" because of IP.
3) Paragon City was great, but Superheroes have never existed in a single city, nor lore.

And, CoX did need a new "Engine" anyway.

I would believe that a new MMO as Great or Greater than CoX can use what we learned and move forward. IMHO the Game is not so much about the Mechanics, though good mechanics is essential, it is more about the Community you get to play with. The Real Super-Heroes/Villains were those Players I played with/against. Yes there were the likes of Clock King and the Rikti, but there was also the Tank "Roscoe Hammer" that kept you, the Blaster, from gaining Aggro. Or the Defender "Priscilla Mist" who kept us Healed when we were fighting.

Roscoe and Priscilla are the Real Benefits for a good Superhero MMO.

[SithRose]

Actually, our tech team is having a meeting about powers and gameplay this evening. As I'm understanding it (bear in mind that I'm not a tech), the goal is to maintain the gameplay feel and "Super" feel of COH while expanding on the possibilities of non-combat, puzzle-based, and other forms of gameplay as well. It IS well understood by The Phoenix Project that part of the draw of COH *was* being able to what you're describing, Sindyr, and that it's an element that we will need to have in our game as well. I believe that the tech team has already decided to maintain the same basic power levels vs mobs that COH had. I.E. any character of any class should be able to solo at least 3 minions, 1 lt +1 minion, or a boss without feeling like it's a desperate battle against terrible odds.

We actually have a thread specifically dedicated to COH in our forums here on Titan. It's in the general discussion forum for Plan Z: The Phoenix Project, and we're taking notes on it. Don't worry about possibly repeating what others have said - The more people that say something, the more information we have that this is something that was well-liked and should remain a part of gameplay. We WANT to know what you felt the best and worst parts of COH were, because this is ultimately a community effort for the community, and we would be remiss if we didn't take the community's feelings and desires into consideration.

[sindyr]

Thanks Sith, that's helpful to hear.  I guess I am a little (more than a little) wary when I see all the other MMOs out there that are challenging and hard, but not fun - that plus how much I abhor dying, even with little or not death penalty.

Anyways, I *am* pulling for having that fun back in my life, so I want you to definitely succeed.

[Samuel Tow]

Lore is fluff, I pay no attention to it.

Then you're going to be sorely disappointed because the primary difference between the Phoenix Project and Heroes and Villains is lore. Golden Girl had a very different look, feel and story in mind from much of the rest of the project, and that irresolvable difference of opinions caused the split. Neither game is going to be a copy of City of Heroes.

[Samuel Tow]

And, CoX did need a new "Engine" anyway.

It needed a lot more than a new engine, as far as I'm concerned. I personally never saw City of Heroes as "perfect," and indeed it became less and less so as it developed. The lore turned into an infinite continuity snarly of old stories disregarded and replaced with newer ones, fudges and kludges and frankly BAD stories. Gameplay, which had once been simple and straightforward, turned into a mixture of complex statistics and much grinding, plus Market PvP. And even power balance was slated towards the need for a team. I said this about Blasters in the actual Blaster Changes thread - all of those changes were good, but they weren't enough as far as I'm concerned. You still had an AT with virtually no personal protection ("maintain" powers are not personal protection) facing enemies that can chain-hold you and hit you for over half your hit points, unless you go through the drudgery of Inventions and the classic MMO min/max build.

Suffice it to say that I feel City of Heroes could use a lot more than just better graphics. My first choice - after a cleaned up, straightened up lore - would be a character creation system that lets players better mix and match power concepts, such as guns and armour or guns and melee weapons.

[General Idiot]

a character creation system that lets players better mix and match power concepts, such as guns and armour or guns and melee weapons.

To my knowledge, both of those are intended to be possible in the Phoenix Project. Guns and armor even comes in dual flavors - defense/range for all your ranged tank needs, and range/defense for the survivable blaster. Though the latter will of course likely do less damage than the 'classic' range/melee blaster build due to balance. There's also a defense/assault option, for those who want to tank at any range. I don't think there's an assault/defense though.

[SithRose]

Thanks Sith, that's helpful to hear.  I guess I am a little (more than a little) wary when I see all the other MMOs out there that are challenging and hard, but not fun - that plus how much I abhor dying, even with little or not death penalty.

Anyways, I *am* pulling for having that fun back in my life, so I want you to definitely succeed.

If it helps, I agree with you. Being Super means that we should be able to fight a whole bunch of lesser guys at once and still come out on top. (Most of the time.) It always bugged me that I was supposed to be this great hero in WOW...and still had to struggle on most classes with more than two even-con opponents for most of my levelling career. (Hunter and Paladin being a noted exception.) We're not playing fantasy. We're playing super heroes and villains. We have powers and technology beyond the wildest dreams of most of humanity. That's really a key element in COH. (And the Phoenix Project's tech team did confirm to me that they do plan to make that as possible as they can within the realms of keeping overall balance, by the way.)

[downix]

To my knowledge, both of those are intended to be possible in the Phoenix Project. Guns and armor even comes in dual flavors - defense/range for all your ranged tank needs, and range/defense for the survivable blaster. Though the latter will of course likely do less damage than the 'classic' range/melee blaster build due to balance. There's also a defense/assault option, for those who want to tank at any range. I don't think there's an assault/defense though.

No defense/range option in the guided AT. Only Defense/Assault and Ranged/Defense.

[srmalloy]

If it helps, I agree with you. Being Super means that we should be able to fight a whole bunch of lesser guys at once and still come out on top. (Most of the time.) It always bugged me that I was supposed to be this great hero in WOW...and still had to struggle on most classes with more than two even-con opponents for most of my levelling career. (Hunter and Paladin being a noted exception.)

This just shows how far Jack Emmert's "three minions should be the equal of one hero" mindset went into other MMORPGs... And you're quite right; we're superheroes -- we're supposed to be head-and-shoulders above the minions.

[Techbot Alpha]

No defense/range option in the guided AT. Only Defense/Assault and Ranged/Defense.

So long as I can finally have my Dual Pistols/SR character...frankly my dear, I don't give a damn