The right to play

[healix]

...no.....ice cream????

https://i.imgur.com/b7W7Hl.gif

[Little Green Frog]

The problem though with Kickstarter as a 'solution' to the problem with publishers are that Kickstarters don't generate enough cash to get the sort of Triple A titles that people demand often (causal gaming is successful, and indie gaming is successful, but they're not mutually exclusive with Triple A titles; they scratch different itches). The most successful Kickstarters are done by people who, frankly already have the clout that most people wouldn't have had to start with without a publisher. Though there are plenty of exceptions to that rule, they aren't the 'Big Bad Boring Publisher' killer that people think they will be. The 'record' Kickstarters are raking in maybe 3 million dollars. And that certainly isn't the median. I wouldn't expect much but niche gaming from them anytime soon.

Kickstarter or any other crowdfunding venues are not a "solution to the problem with publishers" as you put it. Instead they are a complementary funding channel. I'm not certain where the notion of dichotomy came from, however I can't help but see that point of view as fundamentally flawed and not in line with what is Kickstarter's purpose.

That's why Tony V's been very wise to not try to rely yet on crowd funding at this stage in either the Save CoH effort or Plan Z efforts, even though the longer he waits the less he'll be able to make period. While I'm sure he'd love to have the largest bankroll possible for whatever direction this effort takes, the effort would suffer many fold more if things didn't pan out and people basically donated for nothing.

With all due respect (and sympathy) for the people involved with various incarnations of Plan Z, at this point in time none of the projects covered by that umbrella term comes even close to qualify for being a passable candidate for crowd funding and I would imagine TonyV and other people leading the efforts are quite aware of that fact.

[dwturducken]

OK, back up a sec.

Ice cream?

[JaguarX]

Play nice, or by all that is holy I will turn this thread around and NOBODY gets ice cream!

slightly lactose intolerant anyways. lol.


But one thing I dont understand about kickstarter and hope someone can clear this up, is what happens to all the money if a project folds, especially the ones that rake in a substantial amount?

Fro mwhat I gather, kickstarter sounds risky for the investors.

[Segev]

Play nice, or by all that is holy I will turn this thread around and NOBODY gets ice cream!

But Comrade Mooooommmm, an equal share of ice cream is my right as a member of the proletariat!

[Ceremonius]

Just a little sidenote (WALL OF TEXT INCOMING! TYPO ADD!):

I read words like "own stuff" multiple times in this thread.
Has anyone ever read the ToA of CoX/NCS. It is clearly stated that you will lose any of paid for stuff or created stuff in CoX if NCS wishes so. We all just bought a plain crappy allowance to use their software in the way they wanted us to use.
From the legal term here in germany:
If NCS would now resurrect the franchise, makeing a movie and use all of our player creates content (heroes/villains/story arcs) we couldn't do nothing.
The problems are the ToA and the EULA. By using their product we accepted the lost of our intelectual property.
There real comics of heroes wich were created in the game floating around. My main is one of those. We would never ever gain a cent if they want to use them as money machine...also they will lose their identity if NCS would do so.

VV made a nice analogy wich actually DOESN'T fit. In her thoughts we would even have the right to have stuff there. But actually the only.stuff we had, was a signed paper with...you know...that sort of text like:"Ha!Ha! All your ideas and your base belongs to us!".

Pretty poor actually and pretty common to have millions of potential ideas under ones own IP.

About the emulation stuff.
Well: Even it NCS says "You are not allowed to create an emu" < this is just really big BS!
You are allowed to create whatever you want, as long as you do it on your own.
The main problem is: You are not allowed to make changes to the client itself.

I know the legal stuff about serveremulation pretty well, due the fact I have plenty years of experience in it and was also part of multiple really big projects. There is always alot of time, know how and of course money involved, since UO/OSI opened the doors for the emulation scene. Sadly it is more treated like piracy, even if people just want to save their game (ex.: SWG Pre CU <> SWGEmu).

In the end I just can say: Yes there should be some sort of right to a fan to create a platform/server for his game. Or at least a basic platform (like a pretty basic coreserver) should be given to the fanbase, if a game is about to disappear. What a fan does with the stuff given to him might be up.to him, but I guess every Dev would luckily smile if he knows that the game he created still lives under the watchful eyes of it's fans :). At least it would be a thing I would wish for my games.

[houtex]

re: Kickstarter.

Read it here:
http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics

The project can't fold, or the project holder is going to be in hot soup.  Not only is their reputation down the toilet on *any* future ideas, but the money is supposed to be fully refunded to those who want it.  Now whether that can happen or not... I dunno, IANAL, but it's in the agreement, and there is a good chance someone who donates could either a) be a lawyer, or b) own enough money and be irritated enough to hire a lawyer, so that c) that project dude/dudette is not going to be very happy folding up. 

Also, it could be that d) Kickstarter doesn't want the bad pub, and will actively go after whoever tries to not refund, so as to continue Kickstarter's "good feels about this? donate here, people!" thing going.

The thing is on this, once funded, it is supposed to be a no brainer, can do it, will happen thing.  Otherwise, don't bother using this service, go get VC like any other startup/idea shop..

And the other side of the coin is that there has to be enough people to say "Oh, yep, I believe you will do that when you say.  I like you.  You're shiny, here's a dollar."  If there's not enough, then the project is a no-go.

Convincing enough people is the key, and that means credibility in pullin' it off. 

That... may be a lil' difficult to achieve with this project, but I am no way sayin' it can't be done.

[Victoria Victrix]

Just a little sidenote:

I read words like "own stuff" multiple times in this thread.
Has anyone ever read the ToA of CoX/NCS. It is clearly stated that you will lose any of paid for stuff or created stuff in CoX if NCS wishes so. We all just bought a plain crappy allowance to use their software in the way they wanted us to use.
From the legal term here in germany:
If NCS would now resurrect the franchise, makeing a movie and use all of our player creates content (heroes/villains/story arcs) we couldn't do nothing.
The problems are the ToA and the EULA. By using their product we accepted the lost of our intelectual property.
There real comics of heroes wich were created in the game floating around. My main is one of those. We would never ever gain a cent if they want to use them as money machine...also they will lose their identity if NCS would do so.

VV made a nice analogy wich actually DOESN'T fit. In her thoughts we would even have the right to have stuff there. But actually the only.stuff we had, was a signed paper with...you know...that sort of text like:"Ha!Ha! All your ideas and your base belongs to us!".

Pretty poor actually and pretty common to have millions of potential ideas under ones own IP.

About the emulation stuff.
Well: Even it NCS says "You are not allowed to create an emu" < this is just really big BS!
You are allowed to create whatever you want, as long as you do it on you own.
The main problem is: You are not allowed to make changes to the client itself.

I know the legal stuff about serveremulation pretty well, due the fact I have plenty years of experience in it and was also part of multiple really big projects. There is always alot of time, know how and of course money involved, since UO/OSI opened the doors for the emulation szene. Sadly it is more treated like piracy, even if people just want to save their game (ex.: SWG Pre Cu/SWGEmu).

In the end I just can say: Yes there should be some sort of right to a fan to create a platform/server for his game. Or at least a basic platform (like a pretty basic coreserver) should be given to the fanbase, if a game is about to disappear. What a fan does with the stuff given to him might be up.to him, but I guess every Dev would luckily smile if he knows that the game he created still lives under the watchful eyes of it's fans :). At least it would be a thing I would wish for my games.

Yes, I have read the EULA and TOS agreements very, very carefully.  I had to, since we were writing a book series with characters that originated in the CoX universe.

You are misreading it.  NCSoft ONLY has the right to use your characters in a limited fashion in PROMOTIONAL venues only.  Otherwise, you own the right to the character.

Here are examples of what they could do:
Put your character in a promotional ad or video.
Use the IMAGE of your character, and possibly the name, in a comic book or other form of media. 

HOWEVER, they could NOT use the backstory you had created (if any) nor any fiction you had written about your character, nor any art you had created, or had commissioned. 

The likelihood of anyone NCSoft actually doing comics, movies, or videos is...well, winning the lottery has a better chance.  The comics did not do well, the books sank like a lead weight, and even making direct-to-video is an expensive proposition.

And YOU are not prohibited by the EULA from doing comics, movies, books or videos with your character.  Once you did that, you would be protected by the Berne Copyright Convention which is international, and NCSoft would be unable to do anything other than copy the LOOK of your character.

[Victoria Victrix]

But Comrade Mooooommmm, an equal share of ice cream is my right as a member of the proletariat!

So is an equal share of NO ice cream!

[healix]

*hums..'nuthin from nuthin is nuthin'...https://i.imgur.com/jtOIT.gif*

[johnrobey]

*hums..'nuthin from nuthin is nuthin'...https://i.imgur.com/jtOIT.gif*

I hadn't thought about that Billy Preston song in years.

I also liked your posted response to No Ice Cream.  I remember my mom threatening that to get us kids to behave when I was 9.

[healix]

*shares ice cream with JR*
https://i.imgur.com/VXBUOl.jpg

[Perfidus]

Nobody makes ice cream look as delicious and desirable as children do. We all feel that way about it, but only kids are capable of expressing it properly.

[johnrobey]

*shares ice cream with JR*
https://i.imgur.com/VXBUOl.jpg

8)  TY for the Awesome, Healix!   ;D

[Ceremonius]

Yes, I have read the EULA and TOS agreements very, very carefully.  I had to, since we were writing a book series with characters that originated in the CoX universe.

You are misreading it.  NCSoft ONLY has the right to use your characters in a limited fashion in PROMOTIONAL venues only.  Otherwise, you own the right to the character.

Here are examples of what they could do:
Put your character in a promotional ad or video.
Use the IMAGE of your character, and possibly the name, in a comic book or other form of media. 

HOWEVER, they could NOT use the backstory you had created (if any) nor any fiction you had written about your character, nor any art you had created, or had commissioned. 

The likelihood of anyone NCSoft actually doing comics, movies, or videos is...well, winning the lottery has a better chance.  The comics did not do well, the books sank like a lead weight, and even making direct-to-video is an expensive proposition.

And YOU are not prohibited by the EULA from doing comics, movies, books or videos with your character.  Once you did that, you would be protected by the Berne Copyright Convention which is international, and NCSoft would be unable to do anything other than copy the LOOK of your character.

Thanks for clearing that up VV. It was as far as I understood a loss of the intellectual proberty.
And that's something I really went up the walls. Because everyone knows: ideas, phantasy, thinking = freedom ;)

[Osborn]

Yes, I have read the EULA and TOS agreements very, very carefully.  I had to, since we were writing a book series with characters that originated in the CoX universe.

You are misreading it.  NCSoft ONLY has the right to use your characters in a limited fashion in PROMOTIONAL venues only.  Otherwise, you own the right to the character.

Here are examples of what they could do:
Put your character in a promotional ad or video.
Use the IMAGE of your character, and possibly the name, in a comic book or other form of media. 

HOWEVER, they could NOT use the backstory you had created (if any) nor any fiction you had written about your character, nor any art you had created, or had commissioned. 

The likelihood of anyone NCSoft actually doing comics, movies, or videos is...well, winning the lottery has a better chance.  The comics did not do well, the books sank like a lead weight, and even making direct-to-video is an expensive proposition.

And YOU are not prohibited by the EULA from doing comics, movies, books or videos with your character.  Once you did that, you would be protected by the Berne Copyright Convention which is international, and NCSoft would be unable to do anything other than copy the LOOK of your character.

Not to mention that courts, depending on how they feel at that moment, I guess, have thrown out cases where EULA writers have written basically complete illegal nonsense into their TOS when the EULA writer has tried to prosecute the case.

The EULA can write stuff in the contract like "We have a right to secretly raid your house for all your good and services and you're not allowed to even call the police", but that doesn't mean it'll stick in court.

There's an inherent problem with allowing only one side of the supply and demand chain to define all the contracts as leases, and we're seeing it here first hand. It's only a matter of time until this problem hits all of computing, which will soon the more and more we rely on cloud computing and online entertainment distributors like Netflix or Steam. Technically you don't 'own' your DVDs or Bluray games and stuff. Eventually you won't 'own' anything, not even your own pants. But never in recent history was a company empowered to tell you you're only leasing everything you buy and put into your home or body, and also capable of remotely zapping that stuff into non-functionality.

But that said, EULAs aren't written in stone carved by the blood of priestesses. Courts have proven many times they won't uphold  things they see as overstepping the court's bounds. Just because your EULA says you waive your right to a court's judgement doesn't mean that'll stick.

Our major problem right now is that, while Old Important People(TM) see things like Movies or Television or Music as Serious Business(TM), they still see Video Games and gamers in general as children or man-children, and tend to show that bias through on their judgements. But that won't be that way forever as those people age out and are replaced by people who grew up with gaming, or when Our Problem becomes Their Problem.

I know it might be too late for some now, but I know that, now that I've seen this first hand with CoH, I'll no longer ever be dismissive of another MMO going under, personally, where as when Tabula Rasa went under, I not only didn't think it mattered to me, I had no idea who even made or what Tabula Rasa was about.

[dwturducken]

First, the girl in that picture looks like she's about to take that ice cream away in a very forceful fashion.

Second, I know I've said this before, but I would have liked to be a fly on the wall for the talks between Jim Butcher and NCSoft for him to have the right to make and keep a Harry Dresden character. :)

[DrakeGrimm]

First, the girl in that picture looks like she's about to take that ice cream away in a very forceful fashion.

Second, I know I've said this before, but I would have liked to be a fly on the wall for the talks between Jim Butcher and NCSoft for him to have the right to make and keep a Harry Dresden character. :)

His people talked to their legal people, provided proof he was the property owner, and likely signed some sort of agreement saying he wouldn't sue the begeezus out of them. S'bout it.

[dwturducken]

You are officially no fun.  :P

[DrakeGrimm]

This is a no fun zone. Saving City is SRS BSNESS! D:

* DrakeGrimm tweeks dw's nose and flees

WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP!