Author Topic: TPP's and H&V's existence  (Read 22154 times)

Mister Bison

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TPP's and H&V's existence
« on: December 04, 2012, 07:59:20 AM »
Cross-posting everywhere back to here because having 5 threads for this single topic is insanity.

Now unless any "Plan Z" leader says the contrary, the main difference between "The Phoenix Project" and "Heroes & Villain" is actually a difference in the freedom taken toward their common goal. It can or cannot be the sole reason, but for the players, that's all that matter.

As stated numerous times now, both will create a spiritual successor to the game we loved (I suggest we stop refering to it by its name for legal reason, unless all "Plan Z"s will be doomed). It's just that "H&V" will try to provide the same gameplay and systems, just not the same IP, while "TPP" will try to provide the same feel, inventing new gameplay and systems on the way.

Both endeavours make perfect sense, it's just a matter of opinion. As you can see, the difference is in "gameplay and systems", all the rest is (or could be) the same: storylines, 3D models, level design... while the rules, etc. will differ between the games.

I think both are a great idea. In doing something new, you risk doing worse. But you also risk doing better. In doing the same thing you're the successor to, you risk the wrath of NCSoft. But any successor will. Every player has a different idea of what to think of the previous gameplay: "it was perfect !" or "it was horrible !" or "oh, the shiny costumes !". Every and any idea is going to appeal to players, simply because the game is not here anymore.

It's too soon to give names. The choice behind "H&V" gives itself no freedom, what it'll be is decided, what there'll be inside is still up in the air, but as in any game. Golden Girl did something courageous, but the Project Phoenix Committee did too. Both stood up to their convictions, their visions, which could potentially affect the other, so the "split" happened. I put quoting marks because it's just a split name, ressources can be shared, but if a project fails, so should not the other. As both have different "legal" chances.

I can't force anybody to anything, but I would encourage, to those who do because those in charge are maybe hand-bound, to donate and give their work and time to both and every other projects to come. There is no need to "give" to only one of them, and anyway, you can an should (for your IP's sake) only "share" with them. We are all in the same boat, and every single person that reads this is entitled to his opinion and say in the upcoming game, or games.

Edit one: Golden Girl issued a press release, confirming the differences in gameplay from CoH will be details (I assume long-standing bugs and inconsistencies). The same thing is expected from TPP in a short manner.

Edit two: H&V will focus on the Tech aspects first. They have a small tentative business plan in the mean time. So no lore team is up while the tech is not sorted out, Golden Girl assumes the sole Lore position.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 06:47:39 AM by Mister Bison »
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emu265

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2012, 08:32:04 AM »
I am 100% supportive of cooperation between the two projects.  I am paranoid about a fracturing of the community, and anything to prevent that from happening gets a pass in my book.  However.  Sharing work simply for the sake of sharing can get really dangerous, really fast.  Eventually, someone is going to get shafted.  Please, please, please be careful and be sure to trust one another.  Everyone involved in either project needs to work to make sure there are no hard feelings between the two.

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2012, 08:47:27 AM »
I am 100% supportive of cooperation between the two projects. I am paranoid about a fracturing of the community, and anything to prevent that from happening gets a pass in my book.

Ideally, yes; but please take a moment to consider why some of us are just as paranoid about being able to see any progress via a completely incompatible team. There is a reason why studios don't just hire everyone who comes in wanting to write, draw, or code for them.

Mercedes Lackey made an excellent and short point in this regard. It's worth reading. It may make you less paranoid about seeing the project split in two, and more concerned about how things would go if everyone stayed on the same team:
 http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6536.msg83501.html#msg83501

Also bear in mind, there were teams within Paragon Studios who barely ever spoke to each other. Thinking of this as a fracture of the entire community is just not accurate. I've only seen one poster say "I'm out of here" throughout all of this, and they weren't even a member of either project. It was a forum poster. Who later retracted their statement and is still posting around.  :P

Battle Ant

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2012, 08:51:33 AM »
I have no problem with a little healthy competition. I just think people are butthurt because their version of "lore" isn't being used. I've seen evidence of this in both camps since the idea to make a game was brought up. There is too much emphasis on trying to be " the spiritual successor to CoH".

Lore is fluff..PERIOD. It doesn't matter if Aliens came to Earth and impregnated penguins or a Jell-o factory explodes and gave everyone superpowers. Look at Stan Lee. He did not invent the Marvel Universe and put heroes in it, he started with a few heroes and the universe formed from it.

My point is this: K.I.S.S - Keep it simple stupid. If you want to make a hero game, then start with the basics: A hero fights a villain. As that hero gains experience, the villains get tougher. Make the game first and then let the lore form from that. I realize that role playing is important to some people, but it is not important to everyone. The best lore comes from the player's imagination and not from some predetermined source.

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2012, 09:55:50 AM »
Ideally, yes; but please take a moment to consider why some of us are just as paranoid about being able to see any progress via a completely incompatible team. There is a reason why studios don't just hire everyone who comes in wanting to write, draw, or code for them.

Mercedes Lackey made an excellent and short point in this regard. It's worth reading. It may make you less paranoid about seeing the project split in two, and more concerned about how things would go if everyone stayed on the same team:
 http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6536.msg83501.html#msg83501

Also bear in mind, there were teams within Paragon Studios who barely ever spoke to each other. Thinking of this as a fracture of the entire community is just not accurate. I've only seen one poster say "I'm out of here" throughout all of this, and they weren't even a member of either project. It was a forum poster. Who later retracted their statement and is still posting around.  :P
I suppose I didn't express my feelings accurately enough.  I understand the necessity of the divided effort, especially because, according to Tony, there were some hard feelings at one point.  I am only trying to caution against hard feelings between two teams, because that is where a crack becomes a fissure.  I am not proposing the teams get back together.  I would just like them to get along, which may prove challenging if there is shared work. 

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2012, 12:25:54 PM »
At some point I think we should solidate into one plan.  Here's why.

1.) Resources.. true there are a lot of talent offering to work on a new city, but those talents and limited time.  No one getting paid to work code for 8+ hours to get this done.  On top of that others have contacts and aid that can only be put to one plan.

2.) Kickstarter / Marketing.  When the time comes for us to take the plan more public it be confusing to everyone if their are two games.  A Single game can be marketed with a much better approach then trying to fund two games (With a begging for shoe string budget).

I propose this.  Each Team continues on their projects and at the end of a given time give us all a project Proposal.  We then Vote on the Plans choosing witch would be pushed forward.  We are the investors of Plan Z this is both true emotionally, Ideal wise, and funding.  We will be the crowd that will be donating in the Kickstarter after all.  Or so I hope if not why are you here?

So if my idea goes forward at what point do we say "Okay show us your Proposals"
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2012, 12:59:10 PM »
Thanks for clarifying the difference between the two projects, Mister Bison! That makes a lot of sense and, if the real reason, is a good indicator to invest in both games. I loved COH and would be happy to play on the same mechanics again, but I also realize something different could be even more awesome. And as others have mentioned, it's entirely possible that one project realizes it's not going to work and rolls into the other, or both may flourish. Hopefully at least one makes it though, and diversifying our investments is a good start.

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2012, 01:09:05 PM »
I agree thanks Mister Bison for clearing things up.  From the outside it was confusing as why the split at best and at worst an over inflated ego explosion.
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downix

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2012, 01:45:58 PM »
Lore is fluff..PERIOD. It doesn't matter if Aliens came to Earth and impregnated penguins or a Jell-o factory explodes and gave everyone superpowers. Look at Stan Lee. He did not invent the Marvel Universe and put heroes in it, he started with a few heroes and the universe formed from it.
Lore is not fluff, and we've had several game designers already compliment us for taking it seriously. Lore is the framework from which the stories are developed. Without an internally consistent lore system, you risk conflicting development, with two storylines giving completely different outcomes and a player running both of them.

Have you ever read the CoH Lore bible?

Lore is not "where do heroes come from," it is "how does this world work?"  You bring up Stan Lee, but seem to have forgetten that when he began working at Timely Comics in 1939, it's owner, Martin Goodman, *had* a Lore Bible. It was based on Martin's older publications, released under Red Circle Publishing, of pulp detective novels. It detailed out the historical differences between Timely's world and ours.

Timely's had many name changes, and today is a division of the Disney company, named Marvel after it's first title, Marvel Comics. I think Martin did it right, considering how Marvel's still going strong when other publishers of the same era have come and gone. Reading some of the early Marvel titles, you can see distinct references to Red Circle titles in there, including Namor the Sub-Mariner (which was originally a pulp fiction title before making the leap to comics).

therain93

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2012, 02:24:37 PM »
Lore is not fluff, and we've had several game designers already compliment us for taking it seriously. Lore is the framework from which the stories are developed. Without an internally consistent lore system, you risk conflicting development, with two storylines giving completely different outcomes and a player running both of them.

Have you ever read the CoH Lore bible?

Lore is not "where do heroes come from," it is "how does this world work?"  You bring up Stan Lee, but seem to have forgetten that when he began working at Timely Comics in 1939, it's owner, Martin Goodman, *had* a Lore Bible. It was based on Martin's older publications, released under Red Circle Publishing, of pulp detective novels. It detailed out the historical differences between Timely's world and ours.

Timely's had many name changes, and today is a division of the Disney company, named Marvel after it's first title, Marvel Comics. I think Martin did it right, considering how Marvel's still going strong when other publishers of the same era have come and gone. Reading some of the early Marvel titles, you can see distinct references to Red Circle titles in there, including Namor the Sub-Mariner (which was originally a pulp fiction title before making the leap to comics).
Downix, some of us are not dismissing the importance of lore, which it feels like you're assuming.   Yes, structure is required -- I don't think anyone will debate that.  When we say lore is fluff or irrelevant, it means that we really don't care if the main hero was born human or has alien penguin dna for super sliding ability. If somone wants to leave and write their own new game because they whole-heartedly feel that the only important thing is to write about alien penguin impregnation, so be it, but that doesn't matter to some of us.  It's simply not a deciding factor.
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2012, 02:28:55 PM »
Cross-posting everywhere back to here because having 5 threads for this single topic is insanity.

Now unless any "Plan Z" leader says the contrary, the main difference between "The Phoenix Project" and "Heroes & Villain" is actually a difference in the freedom taken toward their common goal. It can or cannot be the sole reason, but for the players, that's all that matter.

As stated numerous times now, both will create a spiritual successor to the game we loved (I suggest we stop refering to it by its name for legal reason, unless all "Plan Z"s will be doomed). It's just that "H&V" will try to provide the same gameplay and systems, just not the same IP, while "TPP" will try to provide the same feel, inventing new gameplay and systems on the way.

Both endeavours make perfect sense, it's just a matter of opinion. As you can see, the difference is in "gameplay and systems", all the rest is (or could be) the same: storylines, 3D models, level design... while the rules, etc. will differ between the games.

I think both are a great idea. In doing something new, you risk doing worse. But you also risk doing better. In doing the same thing you're the successor to, you risk the wrath of NCSoft. But any successor will. Every player has a different idea of what to think of the previous gameplay: "it was perfect !" or "it was horrible !" or "oh, the shiny costumes !". Every and any idea is going to appeal to players, simply because the game is not here anymore.

It's too soon to give names. The choice behind "H&V" gives itself no freedom, what it'll be is decided, what there'll be inside is still up in the air, but as in any game. Golden Girl did something courageous, but the Project Phoenix Committee did too. Both stood up to their convictions, their visions, which could potentially affect the other, so the "split" happened. I put quoting marks because it's just a split name, ressources can be shared, but if a project fails, so should not the other. As both have different "legal" chances.

I can't force anybody to anything, but I would encourage, to those who do because those in charge are maybe hand-bound, to donate and give their work and time to both and every other projects to come. There is no need to "give" to only one of them, and anyway, you can an should (for your IP's sake) only "share" with them. We are all in the same boat, and every single person that reads this is entitled to his opinion and say in the upcoming game, or games.
Thank you for summarizing this -- I don't see why either set of team leads couldn't do it, but thank you.
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downix

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2012, 02:40:01 PM »
Downix, some of us are not dismissing the importance of lore, which it feels like you're assuming.   Yes, structure is required -- I don't think anyone will debate that.  When we say lore is fluff or irrelevant, it means that we really don't care if the main hero was born human or has alien penguin dna for super sliding ability. If somone wants to leave and write their own new game because they whole-heartedly feel that the only important thing is to write about alien penguin impregnation, so be it, but that doesn't matter to some of us.  It's simply not a deciding factor.
That's not how it comes across, however. And people have criticized TPP for taking the job of making a game seriously enough to actually develop a Lore bible.

Now, our lore is a bit heavy, and that is because we're working to keep writers busy until the mission and story framework is mapped out. That's now been just about nailed down, so the lore will be finished up and the actual game mission development begins.

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2012, 03:11:25 PM »
Lore is fluff..PERIOD. It doesn't matter if Aliens came to Earth and impregnated penguins or a Jell-o factory explodes and gave everyone superpowers.
Penguin-Shaped Aliens came to earth and impregnated Jello-O, which exploded when eaten, bestowing super-powers upon the unexpecting dessert-eater.

There! Now everybody is happy! ;)
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2012, 03:13:04 PM »
That's not how it comes across, however. And people have criticized TPP for taking the job of making a game seriously enough to actually develop a Lore bible.

I don't agree with everything that TPP does, but if anyone is criticizing it for taking the development process seriously, that's just silly.

Yes, several of the folks are treating it like running a game studio -- that's how you get things done. I'd much rather people make fun for taking itself too seriously, than for it to just be an amateur joke like so many are. Things like a lore bible and review processes are necessary, otherwise you end up with a game full of Mary Sues and people's pet in-joke groups.

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2012, 03:52:58 PM »
Thank you for summarizing this -- I don't see why either set of team leads couldn't do it, but thank you.

There are some other differences, most of the ones that I can think of having to do with the lore, but I'd say that you're more-or-less right from a lore standpoint as well. PP is making sure that it can stand on its own, avoiding wrath from NCS and providing players and developers with as much freedom as possible. H&V from what I can tell is staying much closer to CoH, so close that the PP staff are concerned about its legal status, which is a large part of the reason behind the split (although not the only reason).

I just wish I can say what, but I'm advised not to, pending PP's imminent legal release. Again, as I've said elsewhere, I can't say when that will be, because we are, at the moment, still volunteers, and RL is prone to getting in the way of a volunteer team.



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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2012, 05:11:32 PM »
Lore is not fluff, and we've had several game designers already compliment us for taking it seriously. Lore is the framework from which the stories are developed. Without an internally consistent lore system, you risk conflicting development, with two storylines giving completely different outcomes and a player running both of them.

Have you ever read the CoH Lore bible?

Lore is not "where do heroes come from," it is "how does this world work?"  You bring up Stan Lee, but seem to have forgetten that when he began working at Timely Comics in 1939, it's owner, Martin Goodman, *had* a Lore Bible. It was based on Martin's older publications, released under Red Circle Publishing, of pulp detective novels. It detailed out the historical differences between Timely's world and ours.

Timely's had many name changes, and today is a division of the Disney company, named Marvel after it's first title, Marvel Comics. I think Martin did it right, considering how Marvel's still going strong when other publishers of the same era have come and gone. Reading some of the early Marvel titles, you can see distinct references to Red Circle titles in there, including Namor the Sub-Mariner (which was originally a pulp fiction title before making the leap to comics).

What does Stan Lee working for some other guy with a lore bible have to do with the fact that Stan made his heroes first and the world evolved from that? This is supposed to be a game. Your lore will evolve with its development. Yes you can have a general idea what you want your story to be, but you may find that during development, some of your story cannot be told due to limitations in your development software, artwork, etc.

You also have time constraints. Are you willing to put 3 to 5 years into telling some elaborate story? I seriously doubt players want to wait that long. Some may, most may not. Look at a real gaming studio. a good 3D game can take that 3 to 5 years to make and that is with using a previous game with lore and a software template (Skyrim comes to mind). This project is starting from scratch with volunteers. I'm not saying that it won't succeed. I'm saying you have a long road ahead of you and should prioritize the more important things first. You first need a working game with a combat system and some guys to beat up. Once that is working properly, then start on your story.

Like building a car, you don't start with the car as a whole, you start with parts and put them together. You start with the parts that make the car operate, once completed, then you put on the fenders and such which gives the car its style.

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2012, 05:56:13 PM »
That's not how it comes across, however. And people have criticized TPP for taking the job of making a game seriously enough to actually develop a Lore bible.

Now, our lore is a bit heavy, and that is because we're working to keep writers busy until the mission and story framework is mapped out. That's now been just about nailed down, so the lore will be finished up and the actual game mission development begins.
I'm sorry if it comes across that way, but I think you and I have an understanding now where we're each coming from in terms of lore.  I hope ( ' : 

It's interesting that there was criticism about the process (of TPP using the lore bible), which I was not aware of.  I'll agree that I think it is silly to criticize having it and enforcing it. Creative types generally chafe under structure though, and it's unfortunate if that really is a wedge; ideally managers would help smooth that over.

As far as being lore heavy -- it doesn't mean it all has to be published, so long as it is there to provide structure for eveything. 
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downix

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2012, 10:20:35 PM »
What does Stan Lee working for some other guy with a lore bible have to do with the fact that Stan made his heroes first and the world evolved from that? This is supposed to be a game. Your lore will evolve with its development. Yes you can have a general idea what you want your story to be, but you may find that during development, some of your story cannot be told due to limitations in your development software, artwork, etc.

You also have time constraints. Are you willing to put 3 to 5 years into telling some elaborate story? I seriously doubt players want to wait that long. Some may, most may not. Look at a real gaming studio. a good 3D game can take that 3 to 5 years to make and that is with using a previous game with lore and a software template (Skyrim comes to mind). This project is starting from scratch with volunteers. I'm not saying that it won't succeed. I'm saying you have a long road ahead of you and should prioritize the more important things first. You first need a working game with a combat system and some guys to beat up. Once that is working properly, then start on your story.

Like building a car, you don't start with the car as a whole, you start with parts and put them together. You start with the parts that make the car operate, once completed, then you put on the fenders and such which gives the car its style.
That would be a case, if Lore and game engine development used the same talent pool.  As they don't, they can be done in parallel, as we are.

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2012, 10:32:57 PM »
That would be a case, if Lore and game engine development used the same talent pool.  As they don't, they can be done in parallel, as we are.
Lore is separate from (but complimentary to) game design, and development is the job to make the design a reality. So while they can be done in parallel, they still have to be made aware of the other, so that we don't end up having a monkey-trout hybrid while trying to mate them in the end.

In other, more related news, Heroes & Villains (erm, Golden Girl in fact) had a press release coverage here which might be interesting read, I'm putting it in the OP.

I thank all those who thought I had a good idea, but it wasn't all mine (well, the syndication of all threads was, but not the "news")
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2012, 12:17:57 AM »
Personally, I feel lore is very important to the overall feel of a game. Without a rich, varied, and (hopefully) internally consistent lore, the game would just not be as much fun. I'm the sort of player who actually likes to read mission descriptions and in-mission text (NPC dialogue, clues, etc.), at least when I'm not under the pressure of playing in a group. That way, I at least have an idea of what the motivations are for all concerned parties, friend and foe alike.

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2012, 02:10:30 AM »
Personally, I feel lore is very important to the overall feel of a game. Without a rich, varied, and (hopefully) internally consistent lore, the game would just not be as much fun. I'm the sort of player who actually likes to read mission descriptions and in-mission text (NPC dialogue, clues, etc.), at least when I'm not under the pressure of playing in a group. That way, I at least have an idea of what the motivations are for all concerned parties, friend and foe alike.

All of you people who could give a rat's hiney about lore [and the depth, richness and abundance of it at launch] need to read the above, take pause, and realize that this is a representative viewpoint; it's one of those things that brings massive amounts of players to the MMORPGs you love, and allows them to thrive (i.e. funding all those new features and powers you love, and word of mouth advertising). It's one of the top reasons City of Heroes held onto its popularity despite the introduction of the much newer, much shinier Champions Online. Content is king, and for many RPG players, content equates very specifically to the density of detail, stories and history within a game world. They like to live there, or at least adventure comfortably behind a stable and secure fourth wall. You don't have to be able to relate to them to be able to appreciate their value to the success and longevity of your favorite games.

Also, although not every content addict is a role-player, you can't really have a discussion like this without considering the value of role-players. These types of players are often labeled as insular and exclusive by regular players, but what you may not know is that role-players provide a LOT of glue for player retention in MMOs. The key to retention is investment; and if you've ever witnessed active RP communities in other games (such as the one we just left behind), whether you participated or just found it all mildly disturbing, you probably noticed the RPers taking investment in their characters and virtual friendships to a whole new level. These people bring players and money to your games and keep them there. In City of Heroes, after the announcement of closure, many players jumped ship immediately, and the RP server Virtue had the greatest number of surviving player groups staying put till the end. These people are crazy about their communities, and maybe a little obsessive, but that kind of dedication often pays for itself--and more. Players on Virtue also consistently raised thousands more in funds for the annual Real World Hero charity donation drive, created by players, than all of the other fifteen game servers combined.

Furthermore, few groups care more about back-story lore and playable story content: some of the sharpest RPers out there have extensive experience with pen-and-paper RPG systems, and there's no better source for feedback and bug reporting (and development help) in the area of story content. The only thing worse for the public image of an MMORPG than a lack of story content is an abundance of story content that just feels tacked on. You might not care whether it's tacked on. But the players and magazine reviewers whose criticisms would drive players (and money, and word of mouth advertising) away from your game should matter to you.

In a nutshell, no matter what your play style is, I heartily recommend players to encourage their friendly neighborhood devs to invest their time in story development. There's nothing to lose and everything to gain, considering the fact that a story dev isn't required to write code anyway. If you fully understood the implications, then you would be begging the studios and publishers of your favorite games to take story content seriously with regards to resources. It is a vital organ in these games, and one of the most vital organs where retention is concerned. That directly affects you, no matter who you are.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 02:16:26 AM by Captain Electric »

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2012, 04:11:16 PM »
Lore is separate from (but complimentary to) game design, and development is the job to make the design a reality. So while they can be done in parallel, they still have to be made aware of the other, so that we don't end up having a monkey-trout hybrid while trying to mate them in the end.

In other, more related news, Heroes & Villains (erm, Golden Girl in fact) had a press release coverage here which might be interesting read, I'm putting it in the OP.

I thank all those who thought I had a good idea, but it wasn't all mine (well, the syndication of all threads was, but not the "news")

That's actually one of the key reasons that I'm keeping abreast of the technical developments in The Phoenix Project. Lore DOES have to know what's technically possible, and have at least a general understanding of the capabilities and limitations in the engine. I may not have the kind of understanding that our programmers do, but I'm not a complete stranger to computer tech - I know enough to ask questions that aren't completely boneheaded. :) We're also making notes on a "would like to have" list that we hand over to the tech department to see if it's feasible. Some if may be, some if it won't be.

We are looking for that rich, varied, and internally consistent lore - I've actually got two people working specifically on the timeline right now, and we're in the process of reviewing all of the groups for continuity issues. Star Trek Continuity is very high on my list of things to avoid at all cost. Without a solid, organized Lore Bible, it's very hard to check that. :)
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2012, 11:50:14 PM »
Finally seeing a difference in philosophy between the projects makes me feel better about this scenario.

A schism in the CoH community so soon after its sunset was depressing. Knowing now the differences in such a quick, succinct way, has restored my faith in there being a successor if we can't get back our game :)
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2012, 04:31:17 AM »
That's actually one of the key reasons that I'm keeping abreast of the technical developments in The Phoenix Project. Lore DOES have to know what's technically possible, and have at least a general understanding of the capabilities and limitations in the engine. I may not have the kind of understanding that our programmers do, but I'm not a complete stranger to computer tech - I know enough to ask questions that aren't completely boneheaded. :) We're also making notes on a "would like to have" list that we hand over to the tech department to see if it's feasible. Some if may be, some if it won't be.

We are looking for that rich, varied, and internally consistent lore - I've actually got two people working specifically on the timeline right now, and we're in the process of reviewing all of the groups for continuity issues. Star Trek Continuity is very high on my list of things to avoid at all cost. Without a solid, organized Lore Bible, it's very hard to check that. :)

I know this is out of left field, but you are the lore lead, and you're a major component of a spiritual successor to City of Heroes; and when some time comes up soon (hopefully) that I'll be able to invest significant ideas and feedback--and emotional investment--to either or both projects, I'm going to want to have some assurances. I doubt that I'm alone in this.

So, specifically, how much time did you spend playing City of Heroes? How many years were you with the game, and how many characters (and character concepts) and how many arcs did you explore? (Some of this is subjective, so details are welcome--for instance, I only created 27 characters during my time there, but someone with over 100 characters once told me that I had put more story development into each of my characters than they had into all of theirs combined.) How far did you get in levels and in general through the game's various overarching story lines (i.e. Blueside, Redside, Praetoria, Incarnate content, etc)?

Were you close to the role-playing community? How versatile were you in your play-styles (archetypes, alignments, character concepts, PvE and PvP, etc)?

Are you a comic book fan? If so, do you gravitate toward a specific era or eras? And did you get the "gist" of the team's approach to the genre? I.E. a world in which comic book super heroes are real, rather than JUST a game full of comic book cliches, spoofs and puns? Did you mesh with the [often] serious ambiance through which Paragon Studios attempted to distill the world of Primal Earth, its storied history, and surrounding dimensions?

How much did you love the game? How many criticisms did you have for its designs and story elements?

Edit: Did you explore the newer arcs throughout the game, such as the beginning AP arcs and those for KR on the beta server, the Signature Story Arcs, Dark Astoria and so on--and how did you like the direction the stories were headed in?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 04:56:52 AM by Captain Electric »

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2012, 04:53:42 AM »
My sardonic reply to those saying "make the game and then fill in the lore" is...
Sure, go ahead and make a game real quick before the writers type a few paragraphs and timelines... come on, quick... CODE! :D

Just trying to interject a bit of humor, but, sorry, that is way off.

If "making the parts that make the car go" was as quick and (relatively) simple a process as honing the ideas, outlines and timelines of creating a virtual world's lore... We wouldn't be waiting around for a new game (we might not have even been playing CoH).

So, racers... open up your word processors and start typing... let's see who finishes first... coders or writers!
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2012, 07:34:58 AM »
I have no doubt a tad bit of anger transference has taken place between the two Plan Z operations.  With out an easy outlet of grief and anger tempers might have flared higher then normal.

But yes a different point of view is the main cause.  I'm glad to be able to see that the split in operation Plan Z does have a logical cause.
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2012, 08:26:17 AM »
I know this is out of left field, but you are the lore lead, and you're a major component of a spiritual successor to City of Heroes; and when some time comes up soon (hopefully) that I'll be able to invest significant ideas and feedback--and emotional investment--to either or both projects, I'm going to want to have some assurances. I doubt that I'm alone in this.

So, specifically, how much time did you spend playing City of Heroes? How many years were you with the game, and how many characters (and character concepts) and how many arcs did you explore? (Some of this is subjective, so details are welcome--for instance, I only created 27 characters during my time there, but someone with over 100 characters once told me that I had put more story development into each of my characters than they had into all of theirs combined.) How far did you get in levels and in general through the game's various overarching story lines (i.e. Blueside, Redside, Praetoria, Incarnate content, etc)?

Were you close to the role-playing community? How versatile were you in your play-styles (archetypes, alignments, character concepts, PvE and PvP, etc)?

Are you a comic book fan? If so, do you gravitate toward a specific era or eras? And did you get the "gist" of the team's approach to the genre? I.E. a world in which comic book super heroes are real, rather than JUST a game full of comic book cliches, spoofs and puns? Did you mesh with the [often] serious ambiance through which Paragon Studios attempted to distill the world of Primal Earth, its storied history, and surrounding dimensions?

How much did you love the game? How many criticisms did you have for its designs and story elements?

Edit: Did you explore the newer arcs throughout the game, such as the beginning AP arcs and those for KR on the beta server, the Signature Story Arcs, Dark Astoria and so on--and how did you like the direction the stories were headed in?

It's not exactly out of left field. In fact, they're pretty reasonable questions to direct at the person in charge of Lore, and the team second for Story. ;)

I started playing City of Heroes near the end of Issue 3, and had to take an extended break from the game about six months after the release of the Sonic powersets due to them causing instant migraines. All told, I had 4 years paid subscription, plus time spent as a Premium player. When I returned after Power Customization had been added, I explored nearly all of the new content on the live servers with new characters. I had at least five characters with T4 Incarnate powers, and over 30 characters total. Each of those characters had a very detailed background, some more than others, and many evolved during the course of play - two of them changed enough for me to reroll the character at level 30+ multiple times. I did not play through the I-23 Incarnate trials, but I did play through all of Praetoria multiple times, as well as both red and blue side. I dare say that I've played almost every story arc in the game.

As far as characters and roleplaying goes, I didn't do a time-played check on my characters before the end of the game. But at one point I had over a gigabyte of roleplaying logs. Some of those were sadly lost in a hard drive crash, but I was very much a roleplayer. I spent quite a bit of time in Gemini Park, and far more time roleplaying with members of our supergroup, coalition, and general people I ran into on the street. I have everything from true-blue Super Hero of the Golden Age to an ice demon whose daughter was kidnapped by humans to a villain whose only motivation was gaining sufficient power to return home and conquer his people. Although I prefer Defenders and Corruptors, I have a great love for Scrapper and Brutes as well. I've played every single AT up to level 20 at least. I have some fairly high-level PVP badges on my two main Defenders, an Empath and a Kineticist, and spent a great deal of time in the PVP zones before I13. (Did you know that a Mind/FF controller could fight a Spines/Regen scrapper to a draw? THAT was an interesting challenge!)

I must admit that I'm not a comic book reader. Most of what I know about comics I've picked up on the fly while playing COH, or while watching various cartoons. (I love the Bruce Timm Justice League, by the way.) However, I'm wise enough to recognize that I am not a comic expert, though I'm relatively well-versed in the overall worlds of both Marvel and DC, and find people for my Lore team who are walking encyclopedias of comic book knowledge. I certainly feel that a world full of nothing but corny puns and such would be extremely boring. This needs to be a deeply developed world, with a strong history of heroes, and one where superheroes and villains are both part of every-day life *and* taken seriously. (With, of course, room for humor along the way. The occasional pun is a good thing - It makes the player laugh. A constant diet of spoofs? That gets irritating very fast.) The world needs to stand by itself as a believable world...even when we're using Comic Book Physics and wearing spandex. And it must have a flexible enough history that virtually any PC from any background can enter, feel at home, and be comfortable roleplaying within that world.

My strongest criticisms of City of Heroes were that the world itself, beautiful as it was, was so often missed because so many missions were instanced, and those that weren't were largely "go kill X of Y" missions. This was a gorgeous place...and the technology when it was built didn't allow for the concept of dynamic world events or phasing based on player actions. It also, eventually, did become repetitive. There's only so many times you can do the same content after you've done all of it, after all, and at the time I took my extended break, Incarnate content wasn't even on the horizon. The idea of flexible missions based on player choice wasn't even considered either, though they introduced those as soon as they could. Aside from Hamidon Raids, and I ran MANY of those as Agent Storm on Virtue, there wasn't much for a level 50 to do except exemplar down, roleplay, or hang out. Again, they made some improvements on the end game, but only in the form of raids. That's rather difficult when you haven't got time to spend an hour or three raiding - Dark Astoria was an excellent story, but it was not well designed for the solo or small team player to increase their Incarnate power.

It was my favorite MMORPG to date, and possibly always will be. Story-wise, the earlier content paled beside the later content quite a bit. (I always did hate the 30-40 desert of really interesting content, especially after the new Talos Island and Sharkhead based 20-30 content.) I really liked Praetoria because it was much more of a choice-driven environment, and the stories branched based on player choices. I was not a fan of the latter half of SSA 1. I felt that it was poorly written, and that Sister Psyche's death was avoidable and trite. And you'd think that after almost a hundred years, Statesman would know not to enter a ritual circle! (Yes, my husband said that ICly when we did it.) I also felt that it did NOT port over to the villain side very well - The first half definitely did, but the second half was very much a let-down villain side. I didn't play through SSA2, because by the time I was able to play it, the shutdown had already been announced. It would have just made me angrier to know that I'd never find out the ending of the arc.

I found the new arcs and the revamped zones to be largely well-written after I-20. Faultline was very interesting, but again, there's only so many times you can do the same story arc. My goal is to have multiple branching story arcs of all types, so that you can literally play the game through 20 times and still not have seen EVERY arc in the game. That's an awful lot of writing I'm putting on the Lore and the Story teams - Lore has to have enough material in the game for that many story arcs and branches, and Story has to be able to actually write that many branches. (For reference, the Story lead for The Phoenix Project and I work together extremely well. He's much more of a comic book reader than I am, while I have more experience with MMOs in general. It's a very good pairing for this project.) It's very ambitious, and I hope that we're able to achieve it.

As far as writing experience goes, I'm very well-versed in world-building and setting materials. I spent several years directing the overall setting and feel of a very large-scale LARP, which is even more chaotic and changeable than a sandbox style MMO. I had over a hundred people reporting to me, and my job was to make sense of those reports, issue them direction, and design plotlines and story around ongoing events within the game. If you're at all familiar with LARP, you'll understand how interesting doing that for an international game with more than 4,000 players in it can be. Players will ALWAYS pull something out of their hats that will catch you off guard, and you need to be able to write flexibly enough to have a good response to that. :)

Now, we had a world already built for us, but it had been changed significantly by the players - and we had to keep track of all of those changes and make sure that the storytellers on the ground had easy access to that information. This was, I might add, before the days of Wikipedia. :) I'm also wise enough to know when to ask for suggestions, and have several friends who've been doing this sort of thing for years. Communication and delegation are really very key to being able to do this - I'm overseeing the greater setting, history, and world, but I'm hardly going to write it all by myself! I also  believe that, generally, you shouldn't simply say "No, this won't work." - You should say "This doesn't work right. Why don't we try this, this, or that instead?". Sometimes, I'll have to say "No, this isn't going to work." and scrap something - but we'll have put some effort into it, and learned something from it, before I say that. Even something that doesn't work out can be learned from, and you never know if an idea that you've scrapped will be picked up by another team member with a new idea and turn into something great.
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2012, 08:59:33 PM »
As much as I believe this discussion is useful, I don't think it's appropriate in this specific thread :) For now, H&V has no lore team whatsoever anyway, so no lore lead either. It's not a choice I think, it's technical.
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2012, 09:08:15 PM »
For now, H&V has no lore team whatsoever anyway, so no lore lead either. It's not technical I think, it's a choice.

Reversed, for accuracy ;)
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2012, 09:13:37 PM »
Reversed, for accuracy ;)
It's still not accurate, because it's not what I thought. Nevertheless, fact taken.

To add more, who is the single person in charge of lore in H&V then ?
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2012, 09:32:14 PM »
To add more, who is the single person in charge of lore in H&V then ?

Who do you think ?

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2012, 09:43:48 PM »
Who do you think ?
I think Golden Girl, because that's not stated otherwise. But I'm not going to put what I think on the first post.
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2012, 09:47:12 PM »
To add more, who is the single person in charge of lore in H&V then ?

We're not focusing on the lore right now - we want to get the technical side of things up and running first - the tech will determine what kind of stories we can tell, and what kind of enemies and allies we can create. For exmaple, I've been asked by some CoV players if they'll be able to fight snake creatures in HaV - and my answer right now has to be "I don't know" - it's obviously something we'd like to be able to deliver, but it depends on what we can achieve in the animation and art areas. Can we model and animate wings to a high enough level of quality? How will TP work? What sort of AI will we be be able to use? Multi-armed rigs? 4-legged rigs? Targeting very large enemies? Phase tech available? Before we can start populating our multiverse, we need to know that we're not wasting out time of coming up with concepts that we can't deliver.
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2012, 10:01:01 PM »
That, I think, is a nearly fatal mistake, especially as it seems you have no business structure underlying the project.
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2012, 10:09:04 PM »
That, I think, is a nearly fatal mistake, especially as it seems you have no business structure underlying the project.
If I may suppose here, if indeed it's a recreation of City of Heroes that's involved here, you need far less structure than for a new, ground-up creative game. Tech very well may be the hardest thing out of lore, marketing and design, as nothing is carried out from CoH (well, except, evidently, marketing. You really have to do everything from zero. But you still have the playerbase).

And as in any project, tackle the thing you believe is the hardest first. It's no use doing the easiest 90% if in the end you are blocked by the last 10%.

Then again, tech might not be the hardest first, maybe legal would be, but I'm no legal-head.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 10:14:09 PM by Mister Bison »
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2012, 10:13:23 PM »
If I may suppose here, if indeed it's a recreation of City of Heroes that's involved here, you need far less structure than for a new, ground-up creative game. Tech very well may be the hardest thing out of lore, marketing and design, as nothing is carried out from CoH (well, except, evidently, marketing. You really have to do everything from zero. But you still have the playerbase).

And as in any project, tackle the thing you believe is the hardest first.

Perhaps less structure is needed, that may be true. The problem is that the legal considerations fall under business concerns, and lacking a business structure means that H&V is at high risk.
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2012, 10:14:32 PM »
Perhaps less structure is needed, that may be true. The problem is that the legal considerations fall under business concerns, and lacking a business structure means that H&V is at high risk.
Was in the process of editing my post about that =) Good point.
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2012, 10:20:56 PM »
lacking a business structure means that H&V is at high risk.

We have a basic business structure in place - but it's also something that's going to wait for further development after we get the tech side up and running.
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2012, 03:59:35 AM »
Typically speaking, when starting any new venture, you want to have the business plan as well defined as possible as early as possible. How can you get the tech side up and running without a solid understanding of the trade-offs involved?
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2012, 05:35:27 AM »
Cross-posting everywhere back to here because having 5 threads for this single topic is insanity.
At the risk of being labeled a unicorn for this; why don't you just stop posting about it?

I don't think many people were confused about either project and their divergence at all after the first forty eight hours.

I think people continually posting back and forth about meta-topics about who and why the projects are different and incessantly apologizing and dissecting one aspect or another is just counter productive. 

Let's stop talking about talking about the projects and just, yanno, get to work.

[Edit]
Your Mileage May Vary, etc, etc, etc...

It's just I see the same names debating the same topics in most of the threads about this subject and mostly they seem to be causing or trying to reignite bad feelings about one or the other.
[/Edit]
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 05:41:25 AM by Roughtrade »

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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2012, 06:45:12 AM »
At the risk of being labeled a unicorn for this; why don't you just stop posting about it?

I don't think many people were confused about either project and their divergence at all after the first forty eight hours.

I think people continually posting back and forth about meta-topics about who and why the projects are different and incessantly apologizing and dissecting one aspect or another is just counter productive. 

Let's stop talking about talking about the projects and just, yanno, get to work.

[Edit]
Your Mileage May Vary, etc, etc, etc...

It's just I see the same names debating the same topics in most of the threads about this subject and mostly they seem to be causing or trying to reignite bad feelings about one or the other.
[/Edit]
I don't know about the others, but I wouldn't stop posting about it because I didn't have enough information about that. Before my thread, there was a single, unheared post in one lost topic who wrote about it. Nor the TPP nor H&V commented on their difference so I tried to take the third party hat to do it.

Sometimes "I don't understand WHY" is an honest lack of information, not unicorning. Sometimes, unicorns will be unicorns. In both cases, it's easier for everybody to come here and not spread it all over the forum in 4 or more threads.

Though I do believe there are horned equidaes snooping here about business plans and what not ;)
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Re: TPP's and H&V's existence
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2012, 12:33:51 AM »
In fiction, especially sf/f Lore is called Worldbuilding and all things flow from it, seminars are given about it, books (by masters) are written about it, and, as a writer, you'd better damn well have your own bible, 90% of which is in your head and not seen.  I had one series where I never revealed THE RULES of why a certain thing happened at a certain time (and surprised my characters), but I knew, and I knew I would have to set up certain conditions to trigger those rules, and that when those rules were met the event would be triggered -- so I kept an eye on those bits all the time...

Worldbuilding, Lore, is key.
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