CoH: the pen and paper RPG?

[dpawtows]

My brother and myself are still running a 4thEd Champions supers game.  Admittedly, the game seems to be on hiatus for now as the GM's are preoccupied making screenshots of CoH costume parts.  ;)

[Sugoi]

I've been considering a Wild Talents / One Roll Engine version of the CoH powers, since I feel it is probably the best system to duplicate the speed of playing a super combat situation in near real time in a PnP environment.  I plan on analyzing the power descriptions from Mid's Hero Designer and assigning appropriate effects and dice levels. 

I've played nearly every Superhero PnP for over 30 years now with Champions, Villains and Vigilantes, Superworld, GURPS, as well as Mutants and Masterminds.  But for effects flexibility and speed of combat determination, I've been thinking about the ORE system as the way to go.  Most other systems require multiple rolls to determine to hit rolls and effects, or massive piles of dice. ORE can do all that with just one throw of 2-10 10-sided dice.

[Des_Tructive]

I DL'd the CoH quickplay and I'll be looking through it over the weekend. Expect some feedback on monday.

[The_Rottweiler]

Throwing this out there...

I fully support folks here developing Plan Z but I also wouldn't think it'd hurt to try developing another program in the direction of the pen & paper experience. I'd like a Skype-influenced chat program with a built-in map maker, dice roller, importable character sheets and the like... even including a searchable rule book "help" menu.

With the growing list of programmers in these forums, I'd hope this less-graphic program would be a cheaper/quicker open source program to construct...

[Atlantea]

Has anyone considered that the real meat of City of Heroes is the City itself, the background history, the lore (and by lore I include the background and signature characters on both Hero and Villain side.)

Why not simply write up a "Universal" Setting Guide that would be useful for any game system?

For example - I don't play GURPS. But I find their well-researched settings guides invaluable. Stuff like their own Supers World. Or the various timelines in GURPS Infinite Earths.

How about do a One-size-fits-all guide that goes into the history and setting of Paragon City and the Rogue Isles? Add in personal histories and background guides of the major signature characters. Then - say for example, with the section on Lord Nemesis, have multiple character sheets. One for D20. One for Champions/Hero System. One for Mutants and Masterminds. One for GURPS etc.

Then you'd have something that anybody could use for any campaign and any system.

[Zolgar]

Has anyone considered that the real meat of City of Heroes is the City itself, the background history, the lore (and by lore I include the background and signature characters on both Hero and Villain side.)

Why not simply write up a "Universal" Setting Guide that would be useful for any game system?

For example - I don't play GURPS. But I find their well-researched settings guides invaluable. Stuff like their own Supers World. Or the various timelines in GURPS Infinite Earths.

How about do a One-size-fits-all guide that goes into the history and setting of Paragon City and the Rogue Isles? Add in personal histories and background guides of the major signature characters. Then - say for example, with the section on Lord Nemesis, have multiple character sheets. One for D20. One for Champions/Hero System. One for Mutants and Masterminds. One for GURPS etc.

Then you'd have something that anybody could use for any campaign and any system.

Or or less my point about saying that if we weren't gonna publish it we'd just wanna do our own thing.

[JediWar]

For about the past two years I've been running a forum based "Pencil and paper" RP set, ostensibly, in the City of Heroes world.

It takes place in a different city, and remains open to anyone who is not a City of Heroes player(as most of my players aren't), but draws on a lot of the lore, world history, legal precedence from the City of Heroes setting. With some of my own events added(such as an alien invasion threatening the world long before we knew of the Rikti, slightly mirroring the storyline of the PC game Freedom Force).

I use the City of Heroes costume character generator as a "paper doll" designer to give the player characters a portrait of their characters, and have on occasion used in game screenshots to set the mood and describe a scene, and they were all very shocked to hear that it was closing before some of them got a chance to join. But that's neither here nor there anymore.

I have the Champions rule book, but to be honest, as much as I love Champions, I far prefer City of Heroes, and the Champions numbering system with all the math involved is just too much work for a pick up and go, no need to explain much, forum based game.

As such I use the Classic Marvel or FASERIP system, as seen here http://classicmarvelforever.com/cms/ and of course, for forum play I simplified and modified it in a number of minor ways. However, why I bring this up is that I worked out a basic frame for the City of Heroes archetype, powerset, and level system to work within the FASERIP system.

Basically put, while I allow my players full freedom to fine tune their character to their whims, when I need an NPC hero or villain I look at my City of Heroes roster(I'm an Altaholic with over 75 characters at least at mid level). "Level 30, Brute, Super Strength/Dark Armor w/ Flight" put through the framing system gives me all the FASERIP stats I need. Viola, I have an NPC to pit against my players.

Also, let me point out that by level 30+ CoH characters get scary powerful. As in punch out armored cars powerful. Any Mayhem mission will tell you that, but it's rather driven home for me during this game. But I digress again, please excuse me.

Now, I've seen conversion sheets for Champions to Classic Marvel, and back. So rather than attempt to make a CoH Pencil and Paper RPG(I've got the early demo, I was less than impressed. I would have stuck to just using the CoH CCG rules.) how about instead we take the City of Heroes world, preserve it's history and setting, including some decent evocative images(which the ParagonWiki has some of, but isn't necessarily the best for), and then instead of attempting to make multiple character sheets, we provide a base skeleton outline, and then the rules for how that outline can be converted to the other systems.

In the above you refer to Lord Nemesis, who(among other things) is a force field user. Well, if you have the rules for how force field powers translate into D20, HeroSystem, Mutant&Masterminds, GURPS, etc. That way you can have the rules for Nemesis, Sister Psyche(help me out here, who are some more big name Force Field users?), etc. all resolved at once. What's the point of writing up four+ different versions of Lord Nemesis, one for each system, when you can provide the CoH information on Lord Nemesis, and the translation conventions to work in the four other systems?

Admitted, some information is lost in translation to the new system(for example, ClassicMarvel has a stat specifically for melee fighting skill, where as Champions does not), but a proper GM for a pencil and paper RP will fine tune these translated characters anyway, taking into account what is 'lost' and fitting it in another way.

City of Heroes has always attempted to keep itself open to interpretation, remaining easy and fun to understand and play without getting bogged down in mechanics. Therefore the really important part of this is gathering up the history and setting guide.

[Ice Trix]

I toyed with doing some 4th ed conversions for heroes, using at wills, encounters etc for different tier powers.

Now I plan on using classic marvel superheroes. The different tier powers can either be stunts or ranks.

And using pargonwiki as the main source book for fluff.

Hopefully we get someway of accessing costume editor which was my original plan for characters before sunset - feels tragically wrong to go to CO for costumes.

[Des_Tructive]

After looking through the CoH RPG and deeming the rules in it a "horrible, convoluted mess that puts Rolemaster to shame", I fully second JediWar's idea of a universal CoH sourcebook. Or perhaps a set of sourcebooks focusing on different aspects of the game.

I'd also volunteer for converting systems to the nWoD ruleset. As mentioned, I'm already running a P&P superhero game with the nWoD rules and quite a few mechanics and concepts "borrowed" from CoH. I should be able to whip up a character creation, powers and stats rather quick.

[Tacitala]

A system without attributes and skills would make most sense, but then you might as well go with heroclix, or a tabletop game.

Amber Diceless could work, especially if the game switched to using the fan created 'partial powers' system.  There's only 4 attributes and the skills system is "BS'ing the GM why your character knows how to do that."

Nobilis might work as well, especially if you wanted to start looking at a more metaphysical version of the incarnates.

Both of those have the advantage of being focused almost entirely on the social aspect of the game: you and your friends out saving the world/conquering the world/supporting the Empire/taking the Empire down.  Combat is downplayed and becomes much more of a descriptive process.

Why not simply write up a "Universal" Setting Guide that would be useful for any game system?

I acknowledge that it would be a massive undertaking of time, and I have no where near enough knowledge of the lore to help, but I would forever love anyone who gathered this information together.

[JediWar]

And using pargonwiki as the main source book for fluff.

As am I, but the Paragon Wiki doesn't have quite the amount of stuff I'd like to use. For example, I took a good screenshot of the Four Kings Textile Mill(west side of Kings Row) to use as a setting for one of my adventures. Paragon Wiki has no screenshot of that, or of the Valor Bridge, or a number of other landmarks. Simply getting a decent map of some of the zones, the in game map would suffice, would be nice.

Hopefully we get someway of accessing costume editor which was my original plan for characters before sunset - feels tragically wrong to go to CO for costumes.

I really hope there is somewhat to access the costume editor after the close, but so far it doesn't look like it. If there is, please contact me! The costume editor requires contact with the server, and if those are shutting down, well...

Oh, and I tired using Champions Online. I was hobbled by a few points. One: I'm free to play on Champions. So obviously I don't have access to everything. Two: Even if I had the full Champions game, I don't think I would have an option to modify powers in that game(you can pick them freeform, but your fire is always the same fire, you can't colorize it or pick different animations). When posing my "paper dolls" I like them to have their weapons/shield out or maybe striking a pose from a power activation. Simply put City of Heroes outranks Champions in character creation. Despite some of Champions advances over City of Heroes(more scaling options, five instead of two color options for most costume parts, allowing one side to be different from the other), City of Heroes has both the 7+ years of options being added and innovations that Champions can't match.

And, finally, Champions has in my opinion, and my players opinion, a horrible design sensibility. Champions is designed to look "cartoonish". Or rather, everyone there is meant to look like an action figure. No skin texture, everything is either plastic, matte plastic, or shiny plastic. I tried it out for one of my players and her reply was "I don't want a barbie doll, I want a super heroine!" Amusingly, they'd rather have the Star Trek Online character generator, which at least gives skin textures, than Champions. Both use the same engine and both are/were Cryptic(/Atari/PerfectWorld).

Not to badmouth Champions. Love the pencil and paper game, and the online game isn't horrible either. It's just not City of Heroes.

I fully second JediWar's idea of a universal CoH sourcebook.

Atlantea's idea I think. I was just providing a little more fine tuning on the concept. I just didn't agree that we needed multiple write ups on all points trying to cover all possible systems. Simply taking the information provided by the Paragon Wiki gives you all the necessary ingame information on powers and enemy factions, which can be translated on a case by case basis depending on what system you believe would capture the spirit you wish to preserve. What we need though is to gather the materials needed to build the setting and history. I'd like Paragon Wiki to be slightly better, and I fear there's not enough time to collect all the screenshots of landmarks. Additionally, there is information on the site, such as the timeline, that fills in lore and backstory that isn't on the Wiki(at least not that I can find).

Converting the Wiki to a source book, even without adding any new information, would be a massive undertaking in itself. Adding in the questionably 'canon' content of the comicbooks and the novels, plus the website lore write ups...

[malonkey1]

Well, perhaps when things have been sunset, people might get ahold of the concept art for all the zones...?

[LuchRi]

I saw the old CoH pen and paper in a comic shop once... but at the time I figured I had the real thing, and could always run an M&M campaign if need be. Now I have the latter at least, but at that point why not just run your own setting... depressing as it may sound.

[JediWar]

Well, perhaps when things have been sunset, people might get ahold of the concept art for all the zones...?

. . . I would pay for a book of that!

Okay, I've paid for just about every City of Heroes book that's made it to print(and the novels by the way are quite worth it). Heck, even the Secret World Chronicles, which isn't City of Heroes at all, but the authors drew on the world to make their own, is worth a the time to find, buy and read(or listen to for free http://secretworldchronicle.com/ ).

But seriously, by this point the Prima guides my father bought for the game, the only good thing about them is that it has some snippets of concept art in it(Nemesis Jaegers were meant to have a tunneling travel power?). And of course a lot of faulty information that gives me a good look at how things were planned to go, but didn't.

[The_Rottweiler]

Really? No one responds to my suggestion? No one's interested in playing pen-and-paper thru a chat medium? I'm surprised.

[Thunder Glove]

For the record, you can recolor your powers in Champions Online if you're a subscriber, and many powers will even let you customize the emanation point (so, for example, you can set Fire Strike to shoot from an open hand, a closed fist, your chest, or your head), and you can recolor/reanimate your powers at any time directly from the Powers interface without having to visit a Tailor.  It's actually surprisingly flexible that way.  (The animations and colors revert to the default if you go F2P again, however, even if you unlock the character for F2P use)

I have plenty of problems with Champions Online (the lack of effective mez powers, the lack of elemental melee, "Support" meaning "healzor", etc.), but power customization is not one of them.

... but I've gotten off-topic.

A P&P-styled game (over the internet or otherwise) could be fun, but I'm not sure it'd really recreate what I enjoy in CoH.  I find myself falling into the background in such groups (regardless of my characters' powers or personality), rather than leading the charge like I do in CoH.

[Des_Tructive]

Atlantea's idea I think. I was just providing a little more fine tuning on the concept.

Ouch! Apologies to my former SG-Mate *hides* Nonetheless, the sourcebook approach with plugins based on system makes most sense. All we need is someone willing to organize the efforts.

Really? No one responds to my suggestion? No one's interested in playing pen-and-paper thru a chat medium? I'm surprised.

Been there, done that. Think the software we used was written in python, but don't remember the Name. The biggest problem is that it costs a lot of time, and even worse, you never know what's going on on the other screens. Our Eberron group actually saw the GM fall asleep once, with us waiting for almost an hour for him to reply. So, me, for one, not interested.

[JThunder]

http://gamingnerdsrus.co/forum/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=500

[Minotaur]

A friend put together a 4th ed D&D CoH game that was quite fun, you can do it with many systems if you take old CoH characters and convert them so both player and GM have a feel for what the charcter could do, rather than try to make new ones.

I'm not over familiar with 4E but I believe he based the powers on the way psionics work hence introducing the concept of "endurance".

[Des_Tructive]

Yeah, altering Psion rules seems like the most sensible choice.

In my nWoD superpowers expansion, I have the secondary trait "Force", which caps their power uses per scene, they can use temporary points to "force" effects after exhaustion. Basically my WoD take on Endurance.