Author Topic: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)  (Read 10871 times)

Mister Bison

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
  • *psychotic grin*
This is mostly food for thought because the design of Plan Z has been laid already, but I wanted to write it down and get the temperature for it.

What I'm going to write is the fruit of a reflection on what I feel about super heroes and comics, and the slight difference that made CoH unique: altisis. What we have in every MMORPG is, actually, totally un-hero like. A hero doesn't begin with few pew-pew super powers and gain others through experience against more and more powerful criminals, and his moves don't get super powerful without looking as such (would be new powers then)

The hero doesn't gain anything from combat (which could be different about villains but more on that later), but it's the opposite here. Why ? Also, what's fun in being the weaker version of yourself ? You have to learn and adapt again between low- and high-level and any sidekicking when you do out-leveled content.

So, let's create heroes right from the start. You get all your powers right from the start ! So, what's to gain ?

I saw 3 things to gain by playing / fighting:

First, enhancement. Basically your "level" or what experience gives you is a way to slightly modify your moves so that you can put a little more strengh or use slightly less energy while doing your things. Or by using a certain style you also synergize with all your powers to enhance all of them (set bonuses). It's *NOT* having a new point to "spend" on a new technique. There is no such market ! These enhancement only enhance twice or thrice the effectiveness of the character, not 10 or 50 fold like it is between level 1 and Ultra-rare Hybrid incarnated.

Second, ressources. What can a hero do by himself ? It can be sidekicks, or network of comrades, or squads of normal help. Basically, this could be just opening alt slots, or if you don't want them, amassing ressources toward helping your cause. Plus, this gives access to high-end content. Lore-wise, it's the combined might of what you've accomplished as a whole that matters, not that all of them have worked together toward a certain goal. It's like opening up the story after a certain amount of time, what happens in the world due to all your alts, that make your accounts and all the alts be able to do things.

Third, fun ! Playing is it's own reward. You create new characters and play a storyline with it a certain way, with friends or not, you roleplay, it's an openworld ! Imagine if you could even influence the state of the world by your action, then each of your characters is a way to create a new world with it ! That is huge !

Fourth: okay, maybe some new powers, like the incarnate system. Every hero got once a new power, generally temporary, in order to be able to vanquish some foe. But basically, all the basic abilities are here at the first minute, eventually unlocked through a tutorial. And most of the archetypes will be provided a "template" powerset in order not to drown the players at the first minute.

So, what do you think ? What are the shortcomings to this system instead of the traditionnal MMO out there ?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 05:32:05 PM by Mister Bison »
Yeeessss....

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2012, 05:49:15 PM »
I will point out there's precedent for heroes starting "weak" and getting "strong." It's very much a part of the generic "hero's journey" that no small number of them go through. From as recent as Danny Phantom (who had a very notable progression from "barely knowing how to use a couple starting powers" to "several new powers he'd never dreamed of and being one of the most powerful entities in his setting") back to at least Spiderman (who had a lot to learn about using his powers over the course of his development), we have super-powered heroes who go through an origin arc and even grow in potency after they've supposedly hit equilibrium.

There are some excellent ideas here. One of the ideas for "sidekick" NPCs was the ability to build them for your character and let people "guest play" them or even eventually play them, yourself, effectively promoting them to "full PC" status. I think a lot of what you've said has come up in various ways, but it's useful to see it all in one place. If you were given a wishing stone and told you could pick exactly one thing from your post you'd like to see implemented and it would be implemented, what would you pick and how would you see it work?

Mister Bison

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
  • *psychotic grin*
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2012, 05:58:52 PM »
I will point out there's precedent for heroes starting "weak" and getting "strong." It's very much a part of the generic "hero's journey" that no small number of them go through. From as recent as Danny Phantom (who had a very notable progression from "barely knowing how to use a couple starting powers" to "several new powers he'd never dreamed of and being one of the most powerful entities in his setting") back to at least Spiderman (who had a lot to learn about using his powers over the course of his development), we have super-powered heroes who go through an origin arc and even grow in potency after they've supposedly hit equilibrium.
Yes, but this "origin arc" is either not the first arc, or extremely short. I know that, for some, the journey is what's important, but the journey is not *only* in the power up, it's the story and the foes, discovering your capabilities and trying to stand up to your values given the odds, not your power. Plus, this sort of things mainly took off with *series*, not comics. Danny Phantom is a cartoon. In contrast, take the TMNT for something that doesn't evolve much.

That is what I wanted to have a look at. You quote spiderman but could I get a specifics of how many comic books he spent "discovering" his powers ? how many powers he discovered, besides climbing on walls, his spider sense, and throwing web ? Creative uses of his web, okay I got it, but for each gadgeteer like this, I think I could quote 10 other heroes that don't have evolving power, take the x-men for instance (where mostly the power shifts were due to retcons or unexplained, other personnaes, or limit breaks). You don't see the full depiction of the centuries Doctor Strange spent as apprentice sorcerer. Ryu and Ken continue training... but never really improve ! And so on.

Quote
There are some excellent ideas here. One of the ideas for "sidekick" NPCs was the ability to build them for your character and let people "guest play" them or even eventually play them, yourself, effectively promoting them to "full PC" status. I think a lot of what you've said has come up in various ways, but it's useful to see it all in one place. If you were given a wishing stone and told you could pick exactly one thing from your post you'd like to see implemented and it would be implemented, what would you pick and how would you see it work?
Well, it'll have to wait for a bit more thinking, my brain just churned out enough for today, needs either input or time, thanks for asking, I'll definitely answer that ^^
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 06:07:11 PM by Mister Bison »
Yeeessss....

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2012, 06:39:13 PM »
Oh, I get what you're saying. There are a lot of heroes who spend the majority of their careers at an even keel. And Piledriver's yearning for a "level-less" system is, in part geared towards that consideration. I think, too, that the "the game begins at level cap" crowd feels much the same way.

There are ideas percolating to try to make this at least somewhat feasible for players. The one I'm mostly leaning towards, personally, is that you only "have" to level up one character per account "the hard way," being able, if you wish, to spend real money to buy levels up to the max. of wherever your highest level character is for alts that you just don't want to do any lower-level content with. Not perfect, but it's a start to help ease some frustrations for those who find leveling to be more pain than pleasure.

Golden Girl

  • One Liners and Winky Faces
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,242
    • Heroes and Villains
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2012, 11:11:50 PM »
This is one of the main reasons behind the planned 1-50 themed leveling paths - CoH does a very good job of presenting various types of themed comic book content, but because it uses a system of higher level = more epic enemies, it's not possible to play 1-50 as a gang-busting street hero, or 1-50 and an alien punching cosmic hero.
But in Plan Z, the idea is to give the street hero player the chance to be a street hero 1-50, and the cosmic hero player to chance to be a cosmic hero 1-50, which will help to hide the process of increasing power.
"Heroes and Villains" website - http://www.heroes-and-villains.com
"Heroes and Villains" on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/HeroesAndVillainsMMORPG
"Heroes and Villains" on Twitter - https://twitter.com/Plan_Z_Studios
"Heroes and Villains" teaser trailer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnjKqNPfFv8
Artwork - http://goldengirlcoh.deviantart.com

darkgob

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2012, 12:36:46 AM »
That is what I wanted to have a look at. You quote spiderman but could I get a specifics of how many comic books he spent "discovering" his powers ? how many powers he discovered, besides climbing on walls, his spider sense, and throwing web ? Creative uses of his web, okay I got it, but for each gadgeteer like this, I think I could quote 10 other heroes that don't have evolving power, take the x-men for instance (where mostly the power shifts were due to retcons or unexplained, other personnaes, or limit breaks). You don't see the full depiction of the centuries Doctor Strange spent as apprentice sorcerer. Ryu and Ken continue training... but never really improve ! And so on.
On the contrary, X-Men characters' powers evolve quite a bit.  A while back there was this whole "secondary mutation" idea where a mutant would develop an ability unrelated to their first one; White Queen is a good example of this, developing the ability to turn into diamond in addition to her mental powers (as demonstrated in X-Men: First Class).

A really great example of level-like progression in a character's powers is Superman.  As a teenager in Smallville (the town), he doesn't just instantly come upon all his powers at once.  I'm not sure exactly how various comic book depictions have gone but on Smallville (the TV show) he comes upon his various powers very gradually throughout the first 3-4 seasons of the show and even then doesn't become fully adept at using them until season 7-8 (and even still he's held back until the finale).

epawtows

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 498
  • Mechanical Engineer
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2012, 03:02:38 AM »
On the contrary, X-Men characters' powers evolve quite a bit.  A while back there was this whole "secondary mutation" idea where a mutant would develop an ability unrelated to their first one; White Queen is a good example of this, developing the ability to turn into diamond in addition to her mental powers (as demonstrated in X-Men: First Class).


Comics/book fans will likely understand the "hero's tale" and slow increase and discovery of powers;  even big famous ones spent years learning their powers and had significant plot arcs at all stages.

Someone who is a superhero by virtue of seeing a few summer blockbusters (and a few vauge memories from childhood), is going to think of 'leveling up' as the short bit at the start of the film (half the time played for laughs) before the real fight starts.  The newer X-Men films did that less so, but then, things like that are one reason *why* comic fans liked those movies so much more than the typical Superman/Batman/Spiderman blockbuster.

Mister Bison

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
  • *psychotic grin*
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2012, 09:35:00 AM »
On the contrary, X-Men characters' powers evolve quite a bit.  A while back there was this whole "secondary mutation" idea where a mutant would develop an ability unrelated to their first one; White Queen is a good example of this, developing the ability to turn into diamond in addition to her mental powers (as demonstrated in X-Men: First Class).

A really great example of level-like progression in a character's powers is Superman.  As a teenager in Smallville (the town), he doesn't just instantly come upon all his powers at once.  I'm not sure exactly how various comic book depictions have gone but on Smallville (the TV show) he comes upon his various powers very gradually throughout the first 3-4 seasons of the show and even then doesn't become fully adept at using them until season 7-8 (and even still he's held back until the finale).
You're partially right, but you didn't read what I've said that, and you're saying yourself: these "evolutions" only were part of prequels, *not* the first apparition of every hero. In fact, every type of story telling exist, it's just that the first comic books always began with "VillainY threatens! The amazing Xman appears !" with Xman at his stable level of power, and some books later you had origin stories to fleshen out the character and explore their past. Smallville, First Class, Street Fighter Alpha, Star Wars I, II and III, all went out after the original story came out. Then you also have the new series that begin at the beginning instead. But I'd like to know if you consider a super hero as such when s/he is in is origin story, after you've seen him/her at his/her prime ? That's... less or equal super. More psychologically interesting perhaps, but less super.

Actually, as an adjustment, my gameplay take on this would be that the first character of any player should be forced to play the chronological way in order to learn to play gradually, but further alts can be played directly without origin arc (that doesn't mean they also can't "flashback" it later).
Yeeessss....

darkgob

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2012, 11:17:24 AM »
Actually, as an adjustment, my gameplay take on this would be that the first character of any player should be forced to play the chronological way in order to learn to play gradually, but further alts can be played directly without origin arc (that doesn't mean they also can't "flashback" it later).
But you still have the problem that not all "archetypes" (to retain CoH terminology) play the same.  Not even all powersets within a given archetype play the same way.

I don't believe our game can depart this drastically from the CoH model and still seriously call itself a spiritual successor.

Mister Bison

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
  • *psychotic grin*
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2012, 11:52:29 AM »
But you still have the problem that not all "archetypes" (to retain CoH terminology) play the same.  Not even all powersets within a given archetype play the same way.

I don't believe our game can depart this drastically from the CoH model and still seriously call itself a spiritual successor.
I do realize this is extreme. But while different archetypes/roles play differently, they also play differently at low level and high level, differently solo and in group, differently depending on the build. But I don't think it's making a service to the player to force him to replay Billy the apprentice hero everytime he makes a new character, because generally he'll ultimately have to enjoy Super Billy and it doesn't prevent the player to experience everything the game has to offer (especially if we grant some linked bonus)

Maybe the origin SA may be the prerequisite to be able to build the toon's powers, if you don't do it, you're limited to standard patterns provided for everybody.

And as another side-effect, you switch the focus of content on "end-game", not on the leveling part, which could make it more accessible.
Yeeessss....

Player99

  • Underling
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2012, 01:52:06 PM »
Bumping, but whatever:

It seems you want it so new characters appear as if it were their first appearance in comics at each time, pretty much ignoring their origin/training. The thing is for every example you bring up you also bring up that the character had an origin/training period, so why not have players start where their character starts?

As for gaining powers/etc, that can -easily- be handwaved as them becoming more skilled with them. Have the players start with a good chunk of powers yeah, but then allow them to grow by developing new techniques. Sure, Spiderman had all the spider attributes from the start, but he didnt develop web shooters till a little later (lvl2 lol), and how long before he could web-zip? Or for when he could create all sorts of different web utility stuff?

Sure, his powers didn't exactly change, but he gained experience in how to use them with new techniques and such. That and/or straight up new powers are both valid reasons to keep in a "growth" system. It also builds up investment in the player character, as if they could literally just start at the maximum there's no incentive to really continue on with them imo.

blackjak

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 517
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2012, 02:53:07 PM »
I see where the OP is coming from and he raises some good points. However, levelling in games is what keeps people playing the game itself. I'm not talking about the community, just gameplay. How many people are proud of their multiple 50's? A lot. Why? Because they took a character they loved to the limits of the game. This is also a part of the whole "grindfest" mentallity in gaming, though. I don't feel COH was grindy in the least, and I  also believe the Phoenix story arc system will be better.
Virtue: Moonsun, Dynamo Jr., Crimson Fury, Sabre Kat, Double Sixxes, Quantum Stranger, Mystic Kirin, Pink.Eye Champion: Blackjak, Redwing Blackbird Justice: Shield Marshal Guardian: White Talon Triumph: Gosuto Union: Stellar Girl

jbazzrea1

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 102
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2012, 05:33:32 PM »
I can see both sides here...

On one hand...I had several toons I enjoyed 1-50...while on the other...some toons I couldn't wait to get high enough level to do real endgame...whether SG need or other...

Some toons required leveling a certain way only to be respecced into the ultimate build after a certain point...(stone armor brutes instantly come to mind...). So I could see where he has a point.

Maybe offer some kind of merit to "buy" levels based on in game accomplishments. Not for money....but say your main is a maxed out top level toon with Mo badges for all the trials...wouldn't it be nice to start an alt around level 30-35? You could setup some kind of metric based on longevity and time logged in game perhaps. Also, it could be tied to endgame achievements and badges totals...etc.

Player99

  • Underling
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2012, 07:53:51 PM »
@Blackjak:

CoH avoided feeling like a grind due to sheer mission variety. Sure, you may be really doing the same couple of tasks per mission, but the enemy groups, stories, unique twists here and there + fun maps made every mission feel fresh. Emulating that should easily at least "hide" any kind of grind.

@jbazzrea1:

Regarding sets such as stone, that'd be more in line with the powerset design to try and avoid cases like CoH stone armor, where everything up to a point is meaningless once you hit that point.

Mister Bison

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
  • *psychotic grin*
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2012, 10:53:03 PM »
This is delightful to see there is still some interest in this.

It seems you want it so new characters appear as if it were their first appearance in comics at each time, pretty much ignoring their origin/training. The thing is for every example you bring up you also bring up that the character had an origin/training period, so why not have players start where their character starts?
Precisely because, as you said it, the first issue is not origin/training. At least that's not the absolute rule (it now seems to be for new comics/mangas/series). So why enforce it ? For gameplay reason, it's better to start with origin/training, so it's going to be enforced for the first character, but it should be possible to introduce new characters directly after training. (I've already adressed how)

As for gaining powers/etc, that can -easily- be handwaved as them becoming more skilled with them. Have the players start with a good chunk of powers yeah, but then allow them to grow by developing new techniques. Sure, Spiderman had all the spider attributes from the start, but he didnt develop web shooters till a little later (lvl2 lol), and how long before he could web-zip? Or for when he could create all sorts of different web utility stuff?

Sure, his powers didn't exactly change, but he gained experience in how to use them with new techniques and such. That and/or straight up new powers are both valid reasons to keep in a "growth" system. It also builds up investment in the player character, as if they could literally just start at the maximum there's no incentive to really continue on with them imo.
You're right, it does make sense. But the aim of a good game is to let the player choose, so I'm not willing to enforce "Here, get all your powers NOW", but currently, every game enforces the other way around, which I saw is not absolute rule. Except for gameplay design, which I try to propose an alternative to (altisis-based gameplay)

I see where the OP is coming from and he raises some good points. However, levelling in games is what keeps people playing the game itself. I'm not talking about the community, just gameplay. How many people are proud of their multiple 50's? A lot. Why? Because they took a character they loved to the limits of the game. This is also a part of the whole "grindfest" mentallity in gaming, though. I don't feel COH was grindy in the least, and I  also believe the Phoenix story arc system will be better.
CoH avoided feeling like a grind due to sheer mission variety. Sure, you may be really doing the same couple of tasks per mission, but the enemy groups, stories, unique twists here and there + fun maps made every mission feel fresh. Emulating that should easily at least "hide" any kind of grind.
In the last months of CoH, where farming was common place and you could (note: you were not forced to) up a toon to level 50 in mere hours, and equip it in a couple more, I (and others) still played the game. Why ? Because there is also tons and tons of different combination and gameplays to try and trifle with. I acknowledge that achieving lvl 50 The Normal Way is gratifying. But currently, it was frowned upon, whereas everybody suffered from Altisis and sometime poured (potentially) pointless hours into leveling.

Story is another matter altogether. I'm not saying "level 1-50 ? Delete those stories please", I'm saying "there is no level, every story is playable right now with all your powers". That's the power of a level-less system that I want to harness, even though it's strangely weaved into gameplay.


Maybe offer some kind of merit to "buy" levels based on in game accomplishments. Not for money....but say your main is a maxed out top level toon with Mo badges for all the trials...wouldn't it be nice to start an alt around level 30-35? You could setup some kind of metric based on longevity and time logged in game perhaps. Also, it could be tied to endgame achievements and badges totals...etc.
That's patching the leveled system nearer to what could be done. That's why I named it "A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG", I'm taking the problem by another end and fold the level system on itself, or into a minor feature.
Yeeessss....

LadyShin

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 719
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2013, 12:01:47 AM »
I realize I'm a bit late in responding, but I'd like to observe that the view from the top (i.e., getting that Omega power Incarnate ability..) is made so much more epic when you start from scratch. Below the ground floor. Your life is at rock bottom when you take it upon yourself to lift the world on your shoulders and make a stand against chaos. The measure of a hero, by the examples that Penelope Yin, Galaxy Girl, and Statesman set forth, is not the prestige or the power you gain from your exploits, but the size of your heart. I think COH touched on that by introducing those morality missions.
"Frank! It's the love boat to Cuba! Shuffle board and pineapples filled with rum. Know what they do? They put little paper umbrellas sticking out the top so that when it rains, it don't thin out the liquor."

Mister Bison

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
  • *psychotic grin*
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2013, 01:37:36 PM »
I realize I'm a bit late in responding, but I'd like to observe that the view from the top (i.e., getting that Omega power Incarnate ability..) is made so much more epic when you start from scratch. Below the ground floor. Your life is at rock bottom when you take it upon yourself to lift the world on your shoulders and make a stand against chaos. The measure of a hero, by the examples that Penelope Yin, Galaxy Girl, and Statesman set forth, is not the prestige or the power you gain from your exploits, but the size of your heart. I think COH touched on that by introducing those morality missions.
If you want late responding, I think you're no worse than me. Again, I'm gladly taking any interest in this.

You're right that some people love "The Hard Way", or "The Long Way". That's why I'm trying to see if it's possible to have a design proposing both this way (which becomes optional) additionally to a more "altisis-oriented" gameplay (which is not compatible with the long way, to the casual player).

Basis of enjoyable gameplay being "progression", to give everything (the "50 levels") of course seems unenjoyable, that's why I think one can keep this and add things that can't be given (like, the incarnate abilities) and "customization" as well as "adaptability" as a reward. First you'll start with only one hero (Let's say superman) then you extend your "universe" with more and more, eventually playing with what you like the most (for fun), or what is the best fit (for min-maxers) or what is the latest thing you set your heart to (for explorers).

Also, removing any vertical hierarchy in the universe, means that old content never grows old. Everything is and stays at the same level. You don't have to hunt skulls before meeting with the shivans, before meeting the praetorian clockworks. Some RPGs did that (Knights of the Old Republic, and the Elder Scrolls come to mind): allowing you free roam, and no fixed progression, in particular order. Everything is as dangerous as any. You could always stop what you are doing and right another wrong. Eventually this freedom comes after overcoming the introduction, to get into the open world. Eventually once you did everything (or one particular thing), the story advances, opening another world. City of Heroes, WoW and all other RPGs out there have level-capped content, you can't advance at your own pace (IF there is a red line to follow. In the opposite case, it's even more arbitrary :/ I mean, level 4 I just fight petty gangs while other people level 50 get to fight dimensional threats ? That you can just go and see, but they fist-cake you because of the level ? dafuq ?).

When you play fighting games, you don't have fighters that have more and more moves the more you play. You just learn to play better, and that's still enjoyable. When you play DotAs, your hero's progression lasts 40 minutes, not a month or 6 (like in MMOs). In MMORPGs, you have content for 6 months anyway, why put arbitrary level barriers like that ? Would it be less enjoyable if Hellions were as powerful as the Carnival, but you too were also more powerful ? What if you had to defeat hellions to be able to make Fire-handling characters, instead of having to go from level 5 to level 10 ?

Those are the questions I ask myself.
Yeeessss....

Nebularian

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 167
    • Voyages of Imagination
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2013, 04:30:38 PM »
Throwing my 2 cents in here  ;D

Mister Bison, you mentioned farming to 50 in one of your earlier posts.  I have to admit that this is one aspect of COH that I never cared for.   I never saw any sense in it.   I saw people create new toons...and go straight to AE and come out lvl 50.  Never made any sense to me. I did it once....was bored to death, and deleted that toon because of it.

To me....the progression (the natural way...not through farming) from lvl 2-50 was a major part of the fun.  Sure, near the end I did take the easy way and often did Death From Below until about lvl 6 or 7...and then headed off to the Hollows.

A game that did not allow such progression would not be interesting to me in the slightest.   Why bother?  For one thing, I am not playing simply to beat up on the bad guys...but rather for at least a tad bit of RPing.   Plus, attaining level (by natural progression, not farming) does give a person a sense of accomplishment.

There were a lot of different ways of playing in COH...those that were there for the RP aspects (I would sorta fall in that category), those that were there to PVP (something I could never get into), Those that were there simply to get a toon to 50 as quickly as possible (never understood that), or those that were overly stat oriented (that one always made me shake my head....seemed like they put too much attention on the game mechanics rather than on the game itself).  But COH accommodated these different styles.

By removing the lvl progression, however, you would remove a lot of the interest in playing long term. The game would get boring real quick because there would be no way the DEVs could churn out new material quick enough to keep people interested.

I simply can't see it. Yes. Super Hero MMORPG's are based on comics....but they are games none the less, not the comics themselves.

I found your concepts interesting to read...but I don't see how they could be implemented in a game that wished to remain financially viable. 
(@Nebularian)(AKA Dylan Clearbrook) Champion/Virtue - Nebularian/Sgt. Raines/Nurse Darklight/Cosmicana-Cosmicella/Mercy Vengeance/Angel Sprite/Suzy Uzi/Blue Arc/Dark Carolyne 
 Website: The Continuum Worlds

Heroette

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 319
  • Penelope Pistol lives forever in my heart.
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2013, 07:44:04 PM »
As a player with severe altitis, I would be disappointed if I couldn't level my toons the traditional way.  I would make play a toon until about lvl 20, then delete and reroll.  Everyone on the server I played on (justice) would know that I would have a new toon every week.  Part of the fun is playing the lowbies, seeing what the new power that comes up next does and doing it again with another set of powers.  Sure, I had toons that made it to 50 but after that, I kinda felt what is the point?  I got my main up to tier 4 on all the incarnate powers.  How powerful does a toon need to be to have fun?  For me, level 1-20 is the most fun.  But I do want a high level cap (50 or so) so that if I find a power combination, that I really love, I can "incarnate" out if I want.  I just like making new toons.

Mister Bison

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
  • *psychotic grin*
Re: A totally different take on Heroic MMORPG (food for thought mostly)
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2013, 11:12:52 PM »
Both @ Dylan & Scalebeast:
I know what this sense of accomplishment is, I did level toons and have altisis back in the days also. But I must be cursed with too perfect memory and imagination. Reliving the first missions again and again and again did end up a chore (not the first few minutes, due to new toon factor). I also liked making tons of toons ideas, most of them I got tired (or had other ideas) and deleted them. My main was particularly this, I deleted him 4 or 5 times before getting him right (took Super Reflexes for Brutes to stabilize him), and that was the best 50 levels I played in my life, even after I did them already on my stone/fire Brute, which was my first 50 (but not quite the first toon either), and fully fleshed Bio too.

I don't want to cut out all progression, just to up the starting level much, much higher, and make the last progression (slotting & incarnating) extremely slow and shiftable from character to character (so that you don't have to redo it on each alt). Also, the "really hard way" can still be had, especially if it's a prerequisite to true freeform, before which, you get only a preset hero. Because the earlier levels are you starting from few powers and building them to all your repertoire.

Basically, it's like ouroboros, but up to eleven.

You can relive your Role life as often as you want, each leading to (eventually) a respec. During it, you get to grow from 2 powers to everything you choose. You can even start with it. Basically, it should last as long as it took you to get from 1 to 20, netting you either a respec or a strong reward like end-game should (just much slower because it can be done solo). RP-wise, this reward is from deeper understanding of yourself (heroes don't "loot", so it's the same when you defeat a super villain or rewatch something you did, or contemplate how you could have done it).

By removing the lvl progression, however, you would remove a lot of the interest in playing long term. The game would get boring real quick because there would be no way the DEVs could churn out new material quick enough to keep people interested.

I simply can't see it. Yes. Super Hero MMORPG's are based on comics....but they are games none the less, not the comics themselves.

I found your concepts interesting to read...but I don't see how they could be implemented in a game that wished to remain financially viable.
That's is both the weak point and turning stone of my idea. Most recent games eventually fail because they don't have enough content anyway. Once players hit the end of the planned evolution, they enter a never-ending circle of raiding and looting and gearing and raiding something else and looting something else... Is that even content ?

In 3 or 4 years of development, games get out with a tremendous amount of content, enough for 300 hours to get through. When the game gets out... every 2 or 4 months, something comes out that takes, what, 20 hours to fold up ? There is something not right here. Development is much harder than content development, and yet it doesn't hold the pace ?

That's why I wanted to see if you could just change the work flow. Those early levels ? Only make ones such as those, and offer them parallelly to the player, not vertically. Eventually, the content is going to age, just because you develop new, more powerful abilities for the player to use, and you don't want to redesign the old content. But just don't offer as much rewards. Yes you can still do this content, now much more easily, but you've got this new content you have to have the new abilities (or upgrades) to be able to do easily.

Wait, this seems familiar... Again, we are in a vertical hierarchy. So, if power levels don't change, what to change ? (<- again, one of my questions) well, type of the enemy, game mechanics involved, and offer them to the player also (partly what CoH was doing in the end, new powersets being shared between new NPCs and players, like the Dream Doctor, Pendragon...) There is nothing particularly powerful in this, this is just how Carnival is different from Knives of Artemis, or Malte. They are a new type of enemy holding the powers of illusion/devices/high-tech you need to make toons of your own, or new types of enhancements (or new combination, but nothing more powerful).

See ? Horizontality, not verticality. New content every few months, everybody playing with its type of character to unlock or strenghthen (there is still slight progression to unlock after straight unlocking) or just have fun (Maybe you can have cross-rewards at a reduced rate).

I just don't want entire stories and gameplay entirely locked to me or my character because I outleveled them. What's holding me to go and smack some skulls when I'm level 50 and an incarnate demi-god ?

Okay, time to go to sleep...
Yeeessss....