Author Topic: MMO Players Bill of Rights  (Read 24121 times)

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MMO Players Bill of Rights
« on: October 15, 2012, 01:16:46 AM »
I have seen this mentioned in a couple places, and I thought it would be a good idea to actually get a master document going on it.

Feel free to reply and add, or argue for subtraction from this. I think that a Bill of Rights is needed for MMOs as a counter that gaming companies have to acknowledge they are expected to live up to.

1. We, as consumers of your product, have a right to expect that product to be there so long as it is profitable.
   - This means that it shouldn't be cancelled because it doesn't fit your vision, or you don't like it. It HAS to be non-profitable BEFORE a cancellation can be made, and you should communicate with the community when this sort of thing is becoming a likelihood.

2. We are entitled to frank, and honest communication with the businesses we deal with.
     - Don't Lie to Your Customer Base. I think that's pretty self explanatory.

3. We are entitled to good customer service, cause our patronage should be important to you.
    - Response times from a GM should be less, and frankly while they shouldn't play the game for you, bugs and such are game killers in some cases.

4. We are entitled to good content for our money. If it is a subscription based game we are entitled to regular updates of content.

5.  Our money is valued as money. Should a game be cancelled MONEY shall be returned to the player. Not E-Transaction credit to another game.
    - This is to bring ALL MMO publishers into compliance with the laws protecting citizens in the United States (which are the only ones I know).
   
6. Listen To Us. We are your target audience no matter what your investors or demographic data says.
     - If we say there is a bug, it's likely there if you look.

7. We have a right to try before we buy. MMOs are a huge investment of time and money, and we should be able to have a tour, so to speak.
    -Most games do this already, but I think it's important to make this nod.

8. Gamers are a family, and should be treated as such. We are inviting you into our homes, as a part of our lives and have the right to expect good behavior from a house guest.

9. No one demographic is more important then the other, please treat everyone equally.

(Proposed and Edited for spelling)

10. Paying customers should have the right to play the game they own, even if the publisher doesn't want to continue developing the game.
    - Video games are culture, an MMO publisher closing down an MMORPG effectively prevents past, present and future gamers to play this game in its functioning state, destroying culture. That doesn't oblige the publisher to have developers or community manager maintaining the game or making it compatible with new generations of software, emulation on the client part shall do that. The publisher does the only thing he can do.
(Edit): I would add that Video Games have the protection of an Art Form, and if an artist sold a painting, and then later decided to ruin it, he would still be arrested for damaging someone's property...


Criteria: I'd like to keep it to 10 Simplistic points, with simple explanation behind it.

I think this is something that should be added to EULAs, or sent in to companies as the counter offer inherent to our accepting they're EULA. If EVERYONE is insistent on stating these are our rights and expectations, Game companies will have to realize that the quality of they're games, especially when called Art by society, comes with it certain inherent responsibilities that not every company has been meeting. I also think a "Gamers Bill of Rights" should be written up to more broadly attack this issue for games and content.

Anyone who wants to help with this it would be more then welcome.

Elvnsword
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 11:56:31 AM by elvnsword »

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2012, 01:57:10 AM »
Can we get a mod to duplicate or move this thread in the City Sunset Legal forum, please? It's something that I would like everyone working on Plan Z to be thinking once (if) we reach the talking to legal people stage.
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Sekoia

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2012, 02:08:56 AM »
Can we get a mod to duplicate or move this thread in the City Sunset Legal forum, please? It's something that I would like everyone working on Plan Z to be thinking once (if) we reach the talking to legal people stage.

We don't have mod tools to duplicate threads. I also don't think it's a good idea to move it to Sunset, since a lot of people in this forum aren't watching those forums and the topic isn't specific to Plan Z. My best recommendation is that you could post something in Sunset linking to this and discussing it as it applies to Plan Z.

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2012, 02:59:22 AM »
We don't have mod tools to duplicate threads. I also don't think it's a good idea to move it to Sunset, since a lot of people in this forum aren't watching those forums and the topic isn't specific to Plan Z. My best recommendation is that you could post something in Sunset linking to this and discussing it as it applies to Plan Z.

In which case, I do the legwork! ;) Consider it done. I didn't really want to MOVE it to Sunset, because it's applicable here as well *and* I want people to see it.

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Colette

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2012, 03:53:55 AM »
While wiser people than me must handle the legal verbiage, I endorse and support this wholeheartedly. It is time for us, the customers, to write the EULA. Viva la revolucion!

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2012, 05:49:45 AM »
This thread is music my ears :)
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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2012, 07:07:55 AM »
I have seen this mentioned in a couple places, and I thought it would be a good idea to actually get a master document going on it.

Feel free to reply and add, or argue for subtraction from this. I think that a Bill of Rights is needed for MMOs as a counter that gaming companies have to acknowledge they are expected to live up to.

1. We, as consumers of your product, have a right to expect that product to be there so long as it is profitable.
   - This means that it shouldn't be cancelled because it doesn't fit your vision, or you don't like it. It HAS to be non-profitable BEFORE a cancellation can be made, and you should communicate with the community when this sort of thing is becoming a likelihood.

Every business has a profit margin, i.e. that a profit that makes worth investing instead of putting the money in the bank. Anyway, no business should be forced to be offen unless it is really a primary need or huge public interest issue. It is pretty much saying that as long a game is deliverying the promised schedules gamers should stay subscribed into them. The shutdown notice is the place were a policy could be made, maybe 3 months is too short, maybe 6 months would be the right thing to do.

2. We are entitled to frank, and honest communication with the businesses we deal with.
     - Don't Lie to Your Customer Base. I think that's pretty self explanatory.

That goes for every business

3. We are entitled to good customer service, cause our patronage should be important to you.
    - Response times from a GM should be less, and frankly while they shouldn't play the game for you, bugs and such are game killers in some cases.

bugs are not intentional, and varying with dev team they could take more or less time to fix. Good costumer service is a subjective concept.

4. We are entitled to good content for our money. If it is a subscription based game we are entitled to regular updates of content.

Define good content. Again, subjective.

5.  Our money is valued as money. Should a game be cancelled MONEY shall be returned to the player. Not E-Transaction credit to another game.
    - This is to bring ALL MMO publishers into compliance with the laws protecting citizens in the United States (which are the only ones I know).

I agree, but given  the precedent of in-store credit only policy in some department stores, not sure if this is really applicable
   
6. Listen To Us. We are your target audience no matter what your investors or demographic data says.
     - If we say there is a bug, it's likely there if you look.

Because, it never happened that a mmo player exaggerate or troll. If you can keep an organized player feedback you can help to fix bugs faster.

7. We have a right to try before we buy. MMOs are a huge investment of time and money, and we should be able to have a tour, so to speak.
    -Most games do this already, but I think it's important to make this nod.

Nice, but how much of the game you want to try. Many games differ a lot between low levels, high levels, and endgame.

8. Gamers are a family, and should be treated as such. We are inviting you into our homes, as a part of our lives and have the right to expect good behavior from a house guest.

Actually, it is a double door, the ground truth of the game happen on the company server so you are a guest too.

9. No one demographic is more important then the other, please treat everyone equally.

you mean race, nacionality? there are things that are consequence of the country laws. Some logistics has to cater to the majority of the playerbase.
 
10. (Left for community development)


I think this is something that should be added to EULAs, or sent in to companies as the counter offer inherent to our accepting they're EULA. If EVERYONE is insistent on stating these are our rights and expectations, Game companies will have to realize that the quality of they're games, especially when called Art by society, comes with it certain inherent responsibilities that not every company has been meeting. I also think a "Gamers Bill of Rights" should be written up to more broadly attack this issue for games and content.

Anyone who wants to help with this it would be more then welcome.

Elvnsword

Not a bad thing, but  just many things are not applicable, at least in a free enterprise environment.

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2012, 07:38:43 AM »
10. Willing paying customers should have the right to play the game they own, even if the publisher doesn't want to continue developping the game. Video games are culture, an MMO publisher closing down an MMORPG effectively prevents past, present and future gamers to play this game in its functionning state, destroying culture. That doesn't oblige the publisher to have developpers or community manager maintaining the game or making it compatible with new generations of software, emulation on the client part shall do that. The publisher does the only thing he can do.

11. (left again for the community)

Information era, doesn't that ring a bell ? We don't live in the past era where you had to physically leave a triple dozen of powerful computers to host a game. You can just cram it in a server farm next to your present games and even have benefits. Hell my personnal pc could probably host a server for 2 or 3 players, or two dozens if I had the bandwidth (or if they were local).
Yeeessss....

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2012, 08:50:44 AM »
You can draft all the documents you want but they don't matter. Some of the clauses in there would be difficult for any software house to meet and likely be very expensive as well. Piracy is very real in our world and for game publishers doing things that encourage it would be cutting their throats. Statements about software quality and completeness are also very hard. If you are publishing a boxed product for retail shelves, you may not have much if any choice about when things must be done. Complying with the document in short means additional costs for publishers with no evidence that there would be increased revenue.

From the other side, if you are going to have a revolution you need people willing to sacrifice to make it happen.Without the ability to inflict a penalty on publishers you won't see them agree to anything.  Just how many of our players that truly enjoyed CoH are playing Guild Wars 2 now ? How intense was their lobbying and recruiting people to that game ? These are the people you need to forgo the pleasure of the moment to punish people for things that likely had no effect on them. As a community we were hardly up in arms over Tabula Rasa. What NCsoft did to Auto Assault didn't stop me from playing CoH for one second. 

We had around 100k + people minimum that could log in for the AP rally ? How many did we get 5K ? Somehow I think more than 5k CoH players are playing GW2 and NCsoft certainly knows it.



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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2012, 11:52:36 AM »
You can draft all the documents you want but they don't matter. Some of the clauses in there would be difficult for any software house to meet and likely be very expensive as well. Piracy is very real in our world and for game publishers doing things that encourage it would be cutting their throats. Statements about software quality and completeness are also very hard. If you are publishing a boxed product for retail shelves, you may not have much if any choice about when things must be done. Complying with the document in short means additional costs for publishers with no evidence that there would be increased revenue.

From the other side, if you are going to have a revolution you need people willing to sacrifice to make it happen.Without the ability to inflict a penalty on publishers you won't see them agree to anything.  Just how many of our players that truly enjoyed CoH are playing Guild Wars 2 now ? How intense was their lobbying and recruiting people to that game ? These are the people you need to forgo the pleasure of the moment to punish people for things that likely had no effect on them. As a community we were hardly up in arms over Tabula Rasa. What NCsoft did to Auto Assault didn't stop me from playing CoH for one second. 

We had around 100k + people minimum that could log in for the AP rally ? How many did we get 5K ? Somehow I think more than 5k CoH players are playing GW2 and NCsoft certainly knows it.

I feel this is a defeatist attitude. The only way to institute change is to stand up and say no more. By accurately standing behind a Bill of Rights, gamers can institute change. What you have said about Piracy is true, however, Piracy exists whether or not they are working with us, and if they are working with us I would think that happy gamers are active gamers. I certainly know I am unhappy with a couple gaming companies and have boycotted them myself for years in at least one case. I simply don't buy they're products.

I think your problem with the AP rally is simple to explain, this is a new ground we are treading, some people while sympathetic to the cause are unsure of how much impact we can as a group have. Frankly put no one protests unless they see protests being successful.

I do agree that we might have to forgo playing games that we love simply because we HAVE to get they're agreement to this bill of rights. Once it becomes clear a significant population of gamers are all for it, to the point of CANCELLING ACCOUNTS, then we will have success. That's the inherent issue. Just as with the Declaration of Independence, it can only carry weight if you are willing to fight for it, and on that we I think agree...

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2012, 12:10:42 PM »
From the other side, if you are going to have a revolution you need people willing to sacrifice to make it happen.Without the ability to inflict a penalty on publishers you won't see them agree to anything.  Just how many of our players that truly enjoyed CoH are playing Guild Wars 2 now ? How intense was their lobbying and recruiting people to that game ? These are the people you need to forgo the pleasure of the moment to punish people for things that likely had no effect on them. As a community we were hardly up in arms over Tabula Rasa. What NCsoft did to Auto Assault didn't stop me from playing CoH for one second. 

We had around 100k + people minimum that could log in for the AP rally ? How many did we get 5K ? Somehow I think more than 5k CoH players are playing GW2 and NCsoft certainly knows it.

As I've said before, I don't see any point in punishing ArenaNet for NCSoft's stupidity. They're in the same exact position that Paragon Studios was in. I don't know about anyone else, but I purchased GW2 back on the first day pre-purchase was available. That was several months before the announcement of COH shutting down. I see absolutely zero reason to waste the money I've already spent by refusing to play the game, especially when it's a game that I enjoy. It IS possible to enjoy more than one genre of MMO, you know. :) Whether or not I happen to be playing or enjoying a game developed by another studio that also happens to be owned by NCSoft has absolutely no bearing on whether or not I support efforts to save City of Heroes.

(I was in AP17 and AP3 for that rally, by the way.)

This is not a battle that will be fought in numbers of accounts or numbers of players. This is a battle that will be fought in paper, on youtube, on twitter and facebook. This is a battle of public opinion and pressure. The pressure of the press is far more scary to a company than the pressure of a handful of people saying that they're going to boycott further products by a company, especially when it's a population that's fairly unlikely to keep that boycott going for more than six months or so. It's the company's reputation that must suffer first - that will scare them and has far greater long-term potential to hit them in the pocketbook than simply calling for a boycott will. In this case, we have to look at how corporate minds think. And corporate minds don't think that a handful of gamers saying "I'm going to boycott NCSoft" is dangerous.

They DO think that a large number of respected bloggers and social media repeatedly pointing out how stupid their decision was, how badly they've handled it so far, and how they've handled the same decision multiple times in the past will hurt them. THAT is where this battle is being fought right now. Hit them in the PR, not the immediate purse. That'll hurt them a lot more in the long run, and they know that.

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2012, 12:23:15 PM »
I however do see the point in hitting a boycott to ALL NC Soft Titles, including Guild Wars 2. As you said companies don't see gamer boycotts as "a big deal" they are forgetting it is our money fueling they're coffers. As a group we are far more powerful then any one news agency or blogger, and as a LARGE group we are sure to get those same bloggers and news agencies talking.

By being a GROUP instead of "a bunch of entitled people" and presenting a unified front, like a document, or a ratifying cry, we say No More.

Only by presenting such a unified front can a bunch of entitled people, hope to become a GROUP instead. Look at the way political pressure works, writing a congressman as a single entity won't get you anything, but a group of people rallying together and lobbying a congressman, can cause change on the Hill.

I know, I got politics in your gaming, sorry...

Anyhow, what we need to do is present that unified front, that Gamer's Revolt to the world, with a Bill of Rights, and then follow through and stop the wallet of any company that violates those rights.

We do have the right to be treated like people, and not cash cows.

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2012, 12:28:21 PM »
 Your #1 and #10 will never fly. You can force a company or anyone to continue to make a or support a product and you dont own anything in an MMO.

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2012, 12:56:29 PM »
The point of this Heatstroke is to change that. My time has value, and as such, I expect something I invest time and money in to be a reflection of that value.

#1 is to show that cancelling of a game, just because, is unacceptable.
#10 is in there because it should be apparent that keeping good relationships with a Group is more important then short term profitability by "forcing" the subscribers to a new game. We're not saying to keep the servers up, but to release code, or give Gamers an avenue to address this concern. This is nothing more then an endorsement of Plan Z.

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2012, 01:06:00 PM »
elvnsword, while I respect your desires here, I think you need to be careful about this kind of statement:
My time has value, and as such, I expect something I invest time and money in to be a reflection of that value.
If you invest time and money into watching sports, attending sporting events, etc., what expectation of value reflection do you think you can reasonably have?

If you're a huge fan of a particular mom-and-pop restaurant, and then Mom and Pop decide to retire, closing up shop, do you expect that the hours upon hours you spent at their restaruant, and the probably tens of thousands of dollars over the years, entitles you to more than the meals and ambiance you already got?


Again, I'm not against trying to get NCSoft or any other publisher to make an MMO continue to be available, but I do want to make sure people are aware of the potential directions their well-meaning desires could take things.

QuantumHero

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2012, 02:20:15 PM »
All confusion goes away when you seperate product from service.

Product a tangible entity for which we exchanged a form of payment...food, cd, book, car, computer game, clothing, painting, console game, chair, gasoline, log of wood, ball of yarn, lump of gold.  All physical items that you purchase and take possession of and may continue to use or consume.

Service - turning a lump of gold into a ring, putting gasoline in my car, performing a repair on my car, serving me food in a resteraunt, re-upholstering my chair, creating a new song or placing it on a cd, writing a new book/publishing that book, framing a painting/making a print of a paining/creating a new painting.

Selling us disks = product, Selling a server module=product

Hosting and maintaining servers -service
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Segev

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2012, 02:40:18 PM »
Ah, but they never sold a server module. Nor did you buy one.

And the kitchen and dining room of the Mom and Pop diner in my analogy are "products," too, but they're under no obligation to sell either to you.

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2012, 02:42:21 PM »
I'm fond of the idea of an MMO Players' Bill of Rights. However, I'm afraid this isn't really the kind of bill of rights I personally wanted to see.

Many of the points raised here are about the game, or about the relationship between individual customers and the company that owns the game, or about the money involved.

What I want to see protected and acknowledged is the community that is built on top of the game. Refunds and bug fixes and new content are worthwhile, but really they're not among my priorities for a bill of rights.

Every company with an MMO tries to foster a community. That's why they don't just provide a game; they provide a game with social elements integrated. You can talk to other players. You can form not just teams, but supergroups or guilds. You can add friends and you can even ignore people you don't like. Most games have forums. Many games organize events for their players, or otherwise interact with the playerbase as a community. This stuff isn't incidental. Much of the value of an MMO is its community. The MMO companies directly foster that community because they need it to make the game successful.

But that community doesn't just exist to serve the game owner's needs. And they need to acknowledge that. It's unacceptable to build a community up and then abandon it without good cause. If there is good cause for a company to abandon a game, then it's unacceptable for them to bar other solutions to keeping the game and community going. Just as the MMO needs the community, the community also needs the MMO.

The MMO companies need to acknowledge that the MMO belongs to both the company and the community. It doesn't necessarily need to legally enshrine that, but it needs to handle the MMO with that in mind.

That's the kind of stuff I want to see somehow enshrined in a bill of rights. Many of the other things raised here fall under the scope of "Game Players' Bill of Rights" and are not specific to MMOs (or even to games, in some cases). I want to see a focus on what makes the MMO unique: its virtual world and the community fostered within it.

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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2012, 03:59:42 PM »


No they never sold a server module and I grant them the right to profit from selling one or allow the "after-market" accessory creator to do the job for them much I  buy parts for my car or gasoline from an outside sourse...even if the car company closes shop or discontinues my model.  The dealership can provide services but they don't stop me from going to other reapir shops.

The analogy of mom and pop's resteraunt does not apply the only product they ever sold was food an maybe monogramed merchandise.  I can continue to use that monogrammed merchandise (cup, t-shirt, etc) they are not rendered non-functional by the closing of the place.  Food is by definition a consumable product that comes with an expiration date.

Two days after mom and pops closes their doors for the last time I can freeze, reheat, or consume any products they have sold me...I just can't get more.  They do not need to sell their equipment o me because I can use any stove.

A program is not a consumable and we do not have an expiration date for safety reasons.
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Re: MMO Players Bill of Rights
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2012, 04:32:16 PM »
*signed*

/em thumbup