Author Topic: A response to NCsoft  (Read 171062 times)

eabrace

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #440 on: October 13, 2012, 06:10:10 AM »
Don't get me started on how programmers hate to document their code.  And how management hates to spend any money on getting documentation on existing code, despite the fact that well-documented code would cut down on the time spent altering existing systems by at least a third.

Because I was very good at documenting code, mediocre at programming, I actually offered to my former bosses that if they would move me to my very own department of "Code Documentation" I would undertake to do ALL of the documentation from that moment on...and when I wasn't working on programs about to be implemented, would dig in and document the old stuff.  That's the sort of person Plan Z needs.
See, most of the software I've been involved in being safety critical systems, requirements are written first.  Those are an art form unto themselves since they all have to be written to state "what" the software does without stating how, and they all need to be absolutely verifiable by an independent tester before they can be approved (e.g. you can't make something "bigger" unless you specify exact sizes and tolerances; if 8 possible logic combinations exist, there needs to be a clear understanding of the behavior for all 8 cases; etc.).  Test engineers, design engineers, systems engineers, and the software engineers that will be handling the code all provide feedback and nothing is approved until everyone likes what they see.

Then the design documents are written, and if there isn't a requirement for it, it had better not show up in the design.  Conversely, if there's a requirement for something, that had better show up in the design.  But the design can be written (implemented) in any way that makes sense to the designer, so long as the person that wrote the requirements can parse it for review and the person who is going to implement the code can understand what the code needs to do.  The design tells us what the code will do, but again, leaves "how" up to the person that gets to implement it.  Design is approved only when requirements, design, and code all like what they see.

Code implements the function of the design in whatever manner they find most efficient.  Similar to the relationship between requirements and design, if it isn't in the design document, it had better not be in the code.  And if it is in the design document, it had better be in the code.  Code is peer reviewed by other code writers and unit tested (unit tests are also reviewed) before being passed along to the build team.

When a build is put together, the build team captures a snapshot of all the functional code and documentation and builds the whole thing from scratch.  After some quick checks (does it execute?) they pass the code back to the design engineers.

Design engineers then run the code on the hardware to integrate the design.  When they are confident that every logical path defined in the design functions as intended, they pass the code off to the testers.

Testers then go through formal testing of the software at the requirements level.  Automation is the goal here since every defined test is run on every build.  If it can't be automated, it has to be done by hand - on every build.

The software is then passed up to the systems group who tests it at the system requirements level.  Once they're happy with it, the software is released.

Some people familiar with code production will be picturing a classic waterfall at this point - which is close - but there's a key difference that makes all of this more efficient:  At any stage, any problem can be flagged and passed back to the previous group.  However many steps it takes, when the original source of the issue is found, that gets fixed and then the fix ripples back through the process again.  So, if a tester finds a problem and they determine that the test is meeting the intent of the requirement but the requirement was incorrectly interpreted by the design, there might be a fix to the requirement to make it less ambiguous, a fix to the design to align to the requirement change, the fix to the code to meet the new design, unit testing, integration, and finally back to testing again.

Having worked in a slightly more "traditional" code-oriented group that prefers to use Agile code development in scrum fashion and fill in documentation after the fact for the last few years, I know how insane the structured process I'm used to can drive some coders.  What they seem not to get is that by the time the design gets to them to code, all they have to think about is how to best implement the code for efficiency.  I find it's generally management that lacks the patience for the system, though.  They like to see results up front, but that process is geared heavily toward showing few results up front and making up for it in the back end with fast and tight implementation and very little effort required to maintain the code.  I get Agile, but since I come from computer engineering and not from computer science, not having pre-existing documentation is the bane of my existence.  I'll eventually get the general idea of what someone else's code is doing, but it'll take me weeks to understand what they might have written in a day, and I probably won't ever fully grasp all of the intricacies.

I tend to drive computer science guys wearing the "software engineer" title absolutely insane.  :)
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Segev

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #441 on: October 13, 2012, 01:42:24 PM »
Seeing as that sounds suspiciously like the official process for implementing things where I work, it looks like a good process to me. The key is to make sure that controls and systems are repeatable and verifiable without making them bureaucracy-for-the-sake-of-bureaucracy. That's where good management comes in.

chaparralshrub

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #442 on: October 13, 2012, 04:10:58 PM »
I'm just really really glad that we have as many professional coders as we do, here! :)

jamvaru

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #443 on: October 13, 2012, 06:04:17 PM »
lol, this thread should be closed

we all agree NCSoft doesn't deserve our money anymore (I tried Aion last night; man it was a bear to get installed and to get registered, but I finally did it, because Curse gave me a 'pet' egg... still haven't hatched the egg, but it was interesting, had some good qualities)

about the 'petition' ... it would be nice if NCSoft would simply do SOMEthing with CoH.  They don't want to because they are focusing on new games and also don't want players who aren't interested in their new products.

NCSoft can do something.  They can consolidate all the servers into one and keep it running just for the fun of it.  They don't even have to have anybody employed except for one tech guy who has an additional title of 'CoH monitor'.  If the server needs burping or something.  So, they would have to pay for electricity and bandwidth, and the occasional hardware fix or bug correction.  Sounds pretty easy to me, for a multimilliondollar company.

So, in the interest of fairness, what would you suggest NCSoft do with CoH that would make sense to them?

chaparralshrub

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #444 on: October 13, 2012, 07:18:22 PM »
lol, this thread should be closed

we all agree NCSoft doesn't deserve our money anymore (I tried Aion last night; man it was a bear to get installed and to get registered, but I finally did it, because Curse gave me a 'pet' egg... still haven't hatched the egg, but it was interesting, had some good qualities)

about the 'petition' ... it would be nice if NCSoft would simply do SOMEthing with CoH.  They don't want to because they are focusing on new games and also don't want players who aren't interested in their new products.

NCSoft can do something.  They can consolidate all the servers into one and keep it running just for the fun of it.  They don't even have to have anybody employed except for one tech guy who has an additional title of 'CoH monitor'.  If the server needs burping or something.  So, they would have to pay for electricity and bandwidth, and the occasional hardware fix or bug correction.  Sounds pretty easy to me, for a multimilliondollar company.

So, in the interest of fairness, what would you suggest NCSoft do with CoH that would make sense to them?


Actually, here's a whacky idea. Cryptic still advertises CoH on its website, as a spectacular example of one of their past successes. Maybe we could convince NCSoft to do the same? That would accomplish their presumed goal of CoH being in the past (for them), but something to remember fondly as they forge ahead... while at the same time keeping it alive in another studio.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #445 on: October 13, 2012, 11:49:51 PM »
So, in the interest of fairness, what would you suggest NCSoft do with CoH that would make sense to them?

STOP LYING TO US.  We're not Koreans, we don't need face-saving nonsense.

Work with us.  CoH is NEVER going to be a rival to anything they do *sniggerBoobsandShamegiggle* in the West.  OK you want to get a tax write off, TELL US.  Then tell us if in the next fiscal year you WILL sell.  Then tell us HOW MUCH YOU WANT.  Let us do the work of getting someone interested.  And even if you don't love Paragon (though I don't know why you wouldn't, since we're the ones applying cattle prods, not them) give them a fair chance at buying it back.

There.  Is that so hard?
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Turjan

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #446 on: October 14, 2012, 01:47:04 AM »
STOP LYING TO US.

There.  Is that so hard?



...except just as poor Neo had to deal with the notion that "There is no spoon", we have to get our heads round "There WAS no reason to close CoH!" ???

Knightslayer

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #447 on: October 14, 2012, 02:18:02 AM »
I am hoping November 1st is a day that will bring some news that can rally the troops. Im hoping at this point that Paragon Studios forms their own group and starts work immediately on their own projects. That I believe would keep the community together and excited. I just don't see NC Soft selling the IP. I see them just making it difficult for ANYONE to acquire it.. Not even with monetary demands but with legal mumbo jumbo..

I will never ever ever ever support NC Soft/Nexon again.

You broke my heart Fredo.. you broke my heart..
Sadly, I have to agree - I don't see NCSoft selling the IP either...
So my hopes lie with Paragon Studios as well - and I pray they won't have to get into bed with one of the "mega corporations" out there to realize their next project, if there is going to be one indeed.

Quote
EA refutes Oddworld creator's claims that it tried to buy his team and suggests Lithium to help with his "paranoia and Tourette syndrome."
 
Lorne Lanning has been an exciting interviewee these past few days. Talking at the Eurogamer expo, the Oddworld creator heavily implied that EA had run into trouble with Russian gangsters over the title of Stranger's Wrath. Later, during an interview with Gamesindustry international, he recounted how he bravely turned down an acquisition offer from EA.
 
"When you say that to us we go 'fuck you very much', quite frankly. That's not a sustainable model, that's a hostile acquisition," Lanning said. "That's why we had to strive to get independent. Rather than get into bed with someone we knew was a horrible bed partner we said 'let's stay virgins for longer'." Here's where things get exciting: EA says that never happened, and responded to Lanning's comments with a statement that some may find inappropriate.
 
"We wish Lorne luck on the game and recommend Lithium for the paranoia and Tourette Syndrome," said EA's corporate spokesman, Jeff Brown. "Nobody here remembers a jet, a Ferrari or an offer to buy his company."

I hope more companies will be able to give the big publishers a similar response as Lanning did to EA, and the rise of the "Indies" will continue.
Heck, even Peter Molyneux left Lionhead Studios and founded his own studio - letting him escape Microsoft's hold.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #448 on: October 14, 2012, 02:27:00 AM »
That's a very interesting response from EA.  I have known several people who worked for EA, and the impression I got from them is that "lying like a rug" is part of the company MO.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Atlantea

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #449 on: October 14, 2012, 02:30:13 AM »
If there is any company arguably worse than NCSoft, it's EA.

NCSoft I see as just provincial, clueless, and needlessly obtuse in it's dealings with the west.

What's YOUR excuse, EA?


Knightslayer

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #450 on: October 14, 2012, 02:32:55 AM »
That's a very interesting response from EA.  I have known several people who worked for EA, and the impression I got from them is that "lying like a rug" is part of the company MO.
I feel for them, if EA treats its employees the same way it does its developer studios and customers...
And it seems that's one more thing they and NCSoft have in common.

If there is any company arguably worse than NCSoft, it's EA.
NCSoft I see as just provincial, clueless, and needlessly obtuse in it's dealings with the west.

What's YOUR excuse, EA?

As shown recently, pretty much the whole world agrees with you there, Atlantea!
I'm sure that Bioware's founders Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk retiring had absolutely nothing to do with EA's acquiring of the company only a few years earlier. >.>

GoreckiMike

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #451 on: October 14, 2012, 02:34:41 AM »
As a Sr. Solutions Architect, I have both Reviewed code and had to Document, Undocumented code. It is difficult, but not impossible; the trick is all in the Context that you create the documentation.

Whats are the Classes used to create the S/W; What are the Attributes & Methods; Inheritance & Augments? Creating documentation for S/W is not to write what you think the Coder tried to code, but what the Methods & Functions are doing. What does the D/B look like? How is the Persistence handled; Cache handled? Security,... etc.

Many times the "Forrest" is easier to document then the "Trees".

My $0.02.

Segev

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #452 on: October 14, 2012, 02:13:19 PM »
Wouldn't that be documenting the "trees" though? It seems to me the "forest" is "here's what the code is meant to be doing," whereas "trees" are "here is what each individual component does."

Mister Bison

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #453 on: October 14, 2012, 05:35:30 PM »
Sometimes you don't need to see code being operations and variables. A normally constituted programmer should have organized its code a bit, the "everything in a single header" is a myth. Software code is just like that, you don't get to the assembly language, you look at keywords and variables, where the only thing the CPU should comprehend are memory adresses and opcodes.

Eabrace analysis sounds applicable. You've basically got 3 levels of making a program (but for basically anything): what it semantically does to the outside of it, what it semantically does in the inside, and how technically it does them inside. That's requirement, design, and implementation. You don't need a lot of documentation for each of them when you've got all of them, since what it does to the outside should be a single or handful of purposes, then each of these gets at most as much inside. And when you know what a software components does, seeing how it does it is generally easy just looking at the code, and when it's not, some comments here and there make it explicit. You're not going to explain old value:=new value in most cases, except when it does something unexpected.

Most of the headaches I've seen are due to not reading carefully the definitions and names given to the code. Most people don't read down to the last line. Back in my childhood, I was nearly the only child to actually read the manuals of the games, and my friends always asked me "how the hell did you know how to do that?". I also got a few things on the internet, but shush.

I think no programmer/engineer should be asked to do all the things at once, yet it's what is mostly done. Documenting, designing, implementing, optimizing, testing. Even if somebody is good at all of them, doing them all on a single project at the same time or back-to-back is excruciating. And some people are just really good at some of them, or it comes natural to them. Yet, everybody involved should be able to do all of these, just to be aware of what's the matter. You don't pick the work of a professional with no experience., you can still question them for insight though. "How can that be good ?" is always better to hear than "this is bad" (even if the second is far easier to output, blame the teachers we all had).
Yeeessss....

jamvaru

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #454 on: October 14, 2012, 06:48:34 PM »
I think they should let us get a working copy of the game as is, a snapshot, and pay to keep it running ourselves.  They still own it, but we run it.  We can share the profits 50/50, if there are any.  Any profits should be applied to the game, as in fixes, manpower, etc.

so, anybody got an ear at NCSoft... we are willing to support a maintenance version of the game, whatever the cost (aren't we?)

CapaDevans

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #455 on: October 14, 2012, 08:31:20 PM »
What's the latest status?

Last I heard NC wasn't returning calls of potential investers and posting "We've exhausted all avenues". Has anything changed or are we going perma dark on 30th Nov?

(I've tried to keep track but I'm sure I must have missed SOMETHING because I find it hard to believe that's it.)

Knightslayer

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #456 on: October 14, 2012, 08:38:26 PM »
What's the latest status?

Last I heard NC wasn't returning calls of potential investers and posting "We've exhausted all avenues". Has anything changed or are we going perma dark on 30th Nov?

(I've tried to keep track but I'm sure I must have missed SOMETHING because I find it hard to believe that's it.)

1) There are still attempts to contact NCSoft, and it's shareholders (Nexon being foremost among them) while people continue to raise awareness about our situation.
Hopefully they will eventually agree to sell the IP and CoH can continue under new management (well, or old management in a new jacket!)

2) We're hoping the former Paragon Studios devs will have more light to shed once November 1st comes to pass and they are allowed to speak (including news of possible future plans, such as a new project similar to CoH)

3) There's always "Plan Z", a spiritual successor to CoH made by the community (Titan's devs mostly, maybe with help from another studio, or some kind of backers)

So there definitely won't be a permanent going dark, something will eventually happen.
It's also important that we stick together as a community, so don't give up hope!

Globetrotter

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #457 on: October 14, 2012, 10:42:09 PM »

So there definitely won't be a permanent going dark, something will eventually happen.
It's also important that we stick together as a community, so don't give up hope!

This keeps me going!
Gutta cavat lapidem, non vi, sed saepe cadendo.

srmalloy

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #458 on: October 15, 2012, 01:36:27 AM »
Don't get me started on how programmers hate to document their code.  And how management hates to spend any money on getting documentation on existing code, despite the fact that well-documented code would cut down on the time spent altering existing systems by at least a third.
In my experience, it's not that programmers hate to document their code; it's that "We need you to go back and fully document this code" gets dropped in your lap as a requirement while your time is already fully occupied with writing the latest batch of code that got dropped in your lap, and if you take the time to document your code as you go, you get downchecked because you're taking too long to write your code.

Zolgar

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #459 on: October 15, 2012, 03:03:50 AM »
(Uh...what exactly ARE plans D-Y, anyhow? I think Plan C is temporary private servers with reverse-engineered code...)

Plan Y is to build a super doomsday weapon and threaten to destroy the entire world if NCSoft doesn't sell CoH to Paragon Studios. >.>