Author Topic: A response to NCsoft  (Read 171088 times)

Manga

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #140 on: October 06, 2012, 09:23:23 PM »

I have initiated contact with NCSoft through multiple paths, offering them a slightly different deal.  I used return-reciepts, so I know their mail server received the emails.  Three out of five made it in.  They'll probably ignore me, but I guess we'll see.

FrankTurk

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WOW.
« Reply #141 on: October 07, 2012, 02:52:46 AM »
I realize that I am a n00b here; I think this is my second post ever.  However, I read this post and my jaw dropped at the almost complete lack of maturity and basic sense of business dealings present in saying stuff like this in public.

Tony: I hope that you have, in fact, been in active discussions with the decision-makers in Korea.  Given that they are in a timezone more or less exactly opposite yours  (when it's 9 AM CT here, it's 10 PM there), it must have been difficult for you to have those conversations.  It's utterly certain they lost no sleep to discuss this, and as you therefore must have, I hope it was not time wasted.  But I hope it was actually spent.  Working for a global corporation in another industry with customers in India, China, and Korean, that time difference is a crippler for me even when both sides agree that there are action items to be agreed to and taken; when one side has no interest in the actions at stake, it's a death sentence.

That said, I think you utterly misunderstand the problem.  You think this is a business PR problem for the Koreans -- and assume they think of the decision like Americans or British might think of this issue.  The fact is that CoH was not a profit power-house.  NCSoft's publicly-disclosed numbers for H1 revenue make that transparent.  It may have made some money, but in comparison to the other newer titles in their portfolio, from memory I recall it being less than 5% of total revenue -- and probably less than 2% of profit after they paid for the 80 people still supporting the game, and all the overhead.  When that kind of marginal profit is coming from a non-domestic division of a company, the honest question by any home office is whether or not it's worth the trouble of doing business internationally for not much return.  Sure: I would cross the street for a sack which had CoH's 2011 profits in it, but I wouldn't swim across the ocean for it.

What makes this misunderstanding worse is that you misunderstand Korean culture.  Making them look bad is a great way to incentivize them to ignore you.  Questioning their credibility and, frankly, honor will make them distrust you.  It seems to me you think they will have pangs of conscience for making a business decision they know how to make, when in fact saying they don't know how to make it will do something other than cause them to see you as trustworthy and credible.

I don't mean to be that guy, but I am: you're not doing anyone any favors by telling us what you have planned to do about what you think NCSoft has done to/for CoH.  Business dealings like this are done in private for a reason, and you making them public doesn't make them more likely to go "our way." It makes credible people walk away from a situation which, as they would see it, is full of juvenile players.

FrankTurk

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Just stop already
« Reply #142 on: October 07, 2012, 02:59:08 AM »
NCSoft stock - owning a share can give a single vote - but the issue has to come up to be voted on.

You must be kidding.  You think shareholders vote on every business decision made by a company?  I think you need to leave Atlas Park more often.

emu265

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #143 on: October 07, 2012, 03:36:38 AM »
Frank, if you have any ideas that can help in any way, people will listen.  But coming here to tell everyone how wrong they without any suggestions is negative and counterproductive.  If you've got an idea, a remedy, anything constructive, please share.  If not, you're just going to start arguments and lose respect. 

Victoria Victrix

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #144 on: October 07, 2012, 03:39:00 AM »
Frank, if you have any ideas that can help in any way, people will listen.  But coming here to tell everyone how wrong they without any suggestions is negative and counterproductive.  If you've got an idea, a remedy, anything constructive, please share.  If not, you're just going to start arguments and lose respect.

Well said.

I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Teege

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Re: Just stop already
« Reply #145 on: October 07, 2012, 03:44:23 AM »
You must be kidding.  You think shareholders vote on every business decision made by a company?  I think you need to leave Atlas Park more often.

"Interesting idea however I don't believe that's how it works with shareholders. What they can do is. . ., they have limits of. . ."

Gets your opinion across without coming across as the body part that helps in the process of feces removal.
Keep fighting the good fight!

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Sir Zues

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #146 on: October 07, 2012, 06:01:14 AM »
A very nice and politically correct letter.  I really wish we all knew what they are thinking.  It seems that they have not learned any thing from Samsung.  The way they are doing this Shut down of COH makes no business since at all.  I think their accountants are corrupt.

claedon

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Re: WOW.
« Reply #147 on: October 07, 2012, 06:46:37 AM »
I realize that I am a n00b here; I think this is my second post ever.  However, I read this post and my jaw dropped at the almost complete lack of maturity and basic sense of business dealings present in saying stuff like this in public.

{SNIP...}

I don't mean to be that guy, but I am: you're not doing anyone any favors by telling us what you have planned to do about what you think NCSoft has done to/for CoH.  Business dealings like this are done in private for a reason, and you making them public doesn't make them more likely to go "our way." It makes credible people walk away from a situation which, as they would see it, is full of juvenile players.

If our community had $500M USD to approach NC to buy COH, and was needing to initiate high level discussions, then yes, you might have a point about a need for privacy and secrecy.  However, we do not.  Tony's actions are designed as a means to galvanize the community and preserve morale, in addition to serving as discussions of strategy.  The fact that they are public is necessary to guide the energies of this community and to encourage us to "keep the faith".  Ergo, the public nature and content of his postings is laudable, regardless of whether it is in your opinion appropriate for the Korean culture.  The community, especially Tony and the other leaders, have tried many different "face-saving" tactics already, which have resulted in no response; those paths have closed down.  As of this point in time, turning up the heat on the stove is one of the few remaining options left to the community.

Unless you have a better idea?  Please if you do, share it with us.  One should always temper one's criticism with constructive options and solutions.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #148 on: October 07, 2012, 08:12:22 AM »
There is a pattern here.  Someone comes in with one or two posts, makes one or more long, seemingly erudite and surface-polite dissertations on how wrong we all are, makes thinly-veiled (or not so veiled) accusations of immaturity, and then expects us to fall down and worship his wisdom.  And he is shocked and angry when we don't, and goes on to make more such screeds.

Go look up Verbal Abuse, and Verbal Abusers, my friends.  Unfortunately, I have a lot of experience with them.  But don't ever expect that when confronted with the label they will see the light.  They never do.  In fact, they will haul in references to all their friends and family and employees who allegedly think they are the kindest creatures on the planet.

Of course they do.  Because by this time, they actually have no friends, only people who tolerate them because they have to, and their family and employees are so beaten down they will always agree with whatever the Verbal Abuser says just on the hope that it might buy them a few moments when he is not browbeating them with words.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 08:32:35 AM by Victoria Victrix »
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Polartica

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #149 on: October 07, 2012, 10:31:48 AM »
Whoa!!!... Waitasec!!!... Hellllloooo!!!!  <roadrunner coming to a screeching halt>  Hold the fort!!!  I don't know about you guys, and I have not read EVERY reply, but this could NOT POSSIBLY make sense!  Let me do my best Jack McCoy here.   If the announcement to close Paragon came on August 31, and the response was was on Oct 2, thats roughly 35 days, give or take a holiday, sick day, or staying home day to play COH.  I am going to ASSUME that they want more than half a million dollars for the game, and I am really lowballing here.  My next question is how long does it take to sell a house?  It takes a couple of weeks for escrow and the monies have to be transferred form one account to another, most are not cash sales, and we know how long banks will take to transfer that money and other federal considerations.  This whole process take about a month if you are the luckiest person on the planet.  For most of the rest of us, this would take a long time.  More than 35 days.  Now NC is saying that in 35 days they have exhausted EVERY possibility?  Anytime a corporation buys out another corp or part of a corp, the transfer takes months.  Think lawyers, paperwork that needs to be filed, investors that need to be informed.....  its not just signing a piece of paper and shaking a hand, we are not selling a car here.  And they exhasuted every option in 35 days :o??  How many options did they consider? 1?  They would need to transfer their login servers, their payment and account servers, the actual server hardware and a multitude of other considerations like HR(insurance, payroll, etc)  And they tried all this in 35 days :o :o?!?!  I never thought once that we would not stop the servers from shutting down temporarily, I dont even think 90 days is enough time, but I thought we woould have a chance to revive or restart the studio and maybe the game goes dark for a month or two.  Just a real complicated process invovled here.  And they exhausted every option in 35 days....  I have a concern we are not being told the truth here :roll:.  NCsoft should be a politician :P

Look, fight until we die, its worse to die with regret that you didn't try than if you died trying.  We might not get it done by the 30th, but I'm fighting until NCsoft shuts off THEIR lights and locks THEIR doors. I'll bring the Bourbon... ;D


     A politician I'd never vote for.  I had a good cackle and well written mate

gandales

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #150 on: October 07, 2012, 11:31:19 AM »
Frank, if you have any ideas that can help in any way, people will listen.  But coming here to tell everyone how wrong they without any suggestions is negative and counterproductive.  If you've got an idea, a remedy, anything constructive, please share.  If not, you're just going to start arguments and lose respect.

While he might phrased less harsh, pointing out mistakes helps to narrow the spectrum of solutions. I am not saying that he is right or wrong, if you believe he is wrong dispute it with arguments but don't discard it just because you don't like it.

Floride

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #151 on: October 07, 2012, 12:04:10 PM »
The petition had no effect, mostly because it didn't speak their language. Assuming the core issue here is money, if we wanna save CoX, there's only one sure-fire way to do it.

Get 20,000 signatures on a petition to raise the monthly VIP rate to $20 USD.

1) If that doesn't turn some heads at NCSoft, it certainly will at (insert any developer who loves to make money here).

2) I dare anyone to find a news outlet that would pass up a story where a fanbase has actually voluntarily decided to raise their own monthly fee.

It would be a win/win situation for us.


And YES, I would gladly pay that price. This game means that much to me. Actually, I'm sorta suprised NC hasn't raised it before now, even if just to keep up with inflation. I only suggest this because I believe the majority of players would also be willing to accept a slightly higher fee to keep this unique game and it's invaluable community alive.
History shows again and again
How nature points out the folly of men

FrankTurk

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A few responses
« Reply #152 on: October 07, 2012, 12:34:26 PM »
"What should we do?"

Unless we know someone with $50 million who lives in Korea who never wants to make his money back but is dying to keep City of Heres alive, we should play the game until the end of November -- actually playing rather than logging in to make our 'toons carry a torch -- and enjoy it while it lasts.  Everything else is self-deceptive -- especially pretending that if we just get enough press, things will change.

FrankTurk

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #153 on: October 07, 2012, 12:47:08 PM »
There is a pattern here.  Someone comes in with one or two posts, makes one or more long, seemingly erudite and surface-polite dissertations on how wrong we all are, makes thinly-veiled (or not so veiled) accusations of immaturity, and then expects us to fall down and worship his wisdom.  And he is shocked and angry when we don't, and goes on to make more such screeds.

That actually sounds like what's being done to NCSoft.

Quote
Go look up Verbal Abuse, and Verbal Abusers, my friends.  Unfortunately, I have a lot of experience with them.  But don't ever expect that when confronted with the label they will see the light.  They never do.  In fact, they will haul in references to all their friends and family and employees who allegedly think they are the kindest creatures on the planet.

... because what's being done right now is so effective, yes?  It's verbal abuse to point out it's not -- that makes you not only right, but a victim.

Regardless of whether or not insulting a Korean company and having no cash to offe them can ever create the solution you think you want.

Quote
Of course they do.  Because by this time, they actually have no friends, only people who tolerate them because they have to, and their family and employees are so beaten down they will always agree with whatever the Verbal Abuser says just on the hope that it might buy them a few moments when he is not browbeating them with words.

That's spectacular!  Compare the argument, "You dont have any money or experience doing business with Koreans, therefore: no wonder you can't get the solution you want," to "He's just a friendless orge or troll, so don't listen to him."  Work out which of those is verbal abuse.

And with that: stay awesome, Internet.  You never disappoint.

Turjan

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Re: A few responses
« Reply #154 on: October 07, 2012, 01:12:02 PM »
...especially pretending that if we just get enough press, things will change.

In the 21st century, the media call the shots. We may not like it (I certainly don't) but it's true. Everyone processes information with such superficiality it's breathtaking - and the media are the ones who determine what hooks to use in their attempt to catch the attention of people who are rushing about their daily lives.

Look at any health scare story. 90% of them are absolute hogwash, but when a media source runs with one, the effect lingers. Even if the scare is subsequently debunked entirely, you'll find people that still believe the initial scare story.

My point is, enough press can and does change things. Usually, the change is negative because the media know the best hooks are ones that scare/worry/disgust/outrage people. A story saying "someone has a complaint today, but they're trying to sort it out in a peaceful respectful manner" isn't going to sell newspapers or make the public watch tv.

Out of courtesy for NCSoft as the creators of City of Heroes, and as a company from a culture foreign to our own, we have tried politeness. Our initial campaign was nothing but positive. There was no attempt to make NCSoft look bad, or question their credibility or honor. We treated them with nothing but respect.

However, their reaction to our politeness and respect has been dismissive, offhand, patronising and insensitive. It is perfectly understandable that following NCSoft's last 'press release', people feel aggrieved and betrayed. And I feel they have a just and proper claim to seek redress via the media now.

You say making NCSoft look bad is a good way to make them ignore us. Apparently making them look good and trying to understand them also makes them ignore us.
You say questioning their credibility might make them distrust us. If they'd had any respect or trust in us in the first place, they wouldn't have handled the closure of CoH as ineptly as they have.

You say we don't understand Korean culture - I say NCSoft never understood the culture in the west in the first place. We at least made the initial attempt to play the communication game by their rules - they have not done us the courtesy of returning that favour.

If discussing business dealings in the open is what 'juvenile players' do, then what would you call refusing to even entertain the notion of communications at all? That's beyond 'juvenile', it's kindergarten territory.

For every critical observation you make, the equal and opposite is also true in this case. You are pointing out that which is already well known. If you believe you have anything new or constructive to bring to the table however, then please, feel free to do so.

Artillerie

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #155 on: October 07, 2012, 02:00:00 PM »
I have nothing but respect for all of those who are carrying on with the fight to cave CoH and i understand why a lot of the efforts have to be announced publically.

This situation seems very fluid and i would guess that there is no such thing as a completely positive move that everyone would agree with.

What seems vital is that we carry on and maintain a united front.

HEATSTROKE

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #156 on: October 07, 2012, 02:33:01 PM »
 I think this was to be expected. These things are called negotiations for a reason. That letter IM is code speak for..

We arent getting the deal we want and if the IP is so valuable give us what we want.

So they make a letter to the public.. which they KNOW is going to get our response...

Then they turn back around and say.. look at these customers and this fan base.. you really want to give us what we want..

Thats how I see it anyway..

Gothica

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #157 on: October 07, 2012, 02:33:30 PM »
FrankTurk,

You're welcome to take your own advice and just give up and play the game until 30 November as you counsel us to do. You're also welcome to make suggestions to us as to how to keep the game alive after that. But this community, which includes some very impressive legal, technological, financial, business, and creative talent, is simply not going to listen to your officious arguments about why its efforts will never work when you make no effort to offer any feasible constructive alternatives. In case you haven't figured it out, we're already in a worst-case scenario here. We have nothing to lose. And since we don't have $50 million or anything close to it, we have to work with the relatively meager resources we have.

If you've got some ideas how to use these resources in a different way that you think will improve our chances, tell us. Otherwise, please go elsewhere and quit wasting our bandwidth..

To everyone else: I've presumed to speak for the community with this post, and I've put our position to Frank as succinctly and clearly as I know how. I intend this to be my last post to him unless he changes his tune; I strongly encourage y'all to follow suit. As they say, "Do not feed the unicorns." We don't have the energy to spare debating him. Going back to Napoleon's maxim 16: if he wants us to argue with him, that's an excellent reason not to do so.


Codewalker

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Re: Just stop already
« Reply #158 on: October 07, 2012, 02:50:16 PM »
[Subject] "Just stop already"

NCSoft already told us to stop.

We said no.

If we don't accept that answer from them, why would we possibly accept it from some nobody on the Internet?

sl701

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Re: A few responses
« Reply #159 on: October 07, 2012, 02:54:40 PM »
especially pretending that if we just get enough press, things will change.

...obviously never heard of Jericho and/or Firefly...

Anyway, 20 bucks per months for CoX? I would be in, though I doubt that a majority of players would pay that, even if it would save the game.
Keep up your great work, guys!