Author Topic: A response to NCsoft  (Read 171086 times)

P51mus

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #120 on: October 06, 2012, 09:00:50 AM »
This scenario is possible, but it's not very likely. A devious action like that, particularly by an American company, would be something that would have been leaked by now. Also, it's unlikely that a company would wait 5+ years to resume legal action again. It's more likely that they'd be working on it constantly, such as Apple vs Samsung. The goal is to exhaust the competitor into bankruptcy with non-stop legal pressure.

Not to mention, from what I've heard about the marvel MMO, you're not actually making your own hero. You're choosing marvel heroes and playing as them.  That's a pretty significant difference.

Frostyfrozen

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #121 on: October 06, 2012, 09:39:14 AM »
In addition to Korean media, we might want to look into Japanese media, since Nexon is Japanese.

Also remember NCsoft just sued a Japanese man for a shadow server of Aion. They even going after some of the players on the server. How you sue a guy over a privet server that both game use F2P syatem.

Segev

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #122 on: October 06, 2012, 12:25:33 PM »
I do not think there have been a shortage of willing buyers. It is possible none have offered "enough," but I find it likely that, if this is the case, "enough" is woefully unreasonably high for the value of the IP and the ability to ever make back the sale price. This leads me to believe that there is "something else" at play. I do not think - and this is just my gut telling me it doesn't sound right - it's a third party using legal leverage to force it off.

Unless and until we can worm from NCSoft what they want and why, I think it's barking up the wrong tree to attempt to solicit new buyers. At a minimum, we should probably hold off on such things until Nov. 2, given our reasonable hopes that we'll have new and useful information from former Paragon employees at that time.

In the meantime, I don't think we've even stepped off the path of the hero, here, into vigilantism. Vigilantism would involve some level of callousness. Heroes can and do bring shame to those who are doing wrong when said wrong-doers demonstrate that they are not unaware of their malefaction and show little intention of halting. At this stage, we're just making it louder and willing to show the stick - bad PR - as well as the carrot of good PR. Heroes do sometimes have to punch bad guys.

In that vein, we need to ramp up our visibility and at least maintain our volume. There are four or five things being proposed on the forum right now that are very solid moves:

1) TonyV is looking into newspaper ads in Korea. This will hit them right at home in a way that makes the damage they're doing to their reputation very visible, and may also wound their reputation in a market they thought insulated from this one. I think we should consider including in those ads some mention of a couple of the other efforts, just to make sure that NCSoft can't get away with pretending they haven't gotten them.

2) Certain letters written by VV and others. I will focus on VV's, because her name is the most recognizable, but others are just as powerful. The intent is to personally shame the NCSoft CEO with them in his own eyes, by showing him how badly he has failed or ignored his nunchi, but there is a stiletto hidden in this: while they were not released broadly, they did appear on this public forum. Should they go ignored, they might be part of the content of those ads...or even just written in as "letters to the editor" of Korean newspapers. Or as open letters to the NCSoft CEO and management printed in those papers.

3) Another thread started by talking about a "nuts" campaign used to save a TV show called Jeriko, and has evolved into a campaign to send socks in bulk to NCSoft's headquarters in Korea as a gift. There is some discussion over whether, along with the wholesale purchase of plain white socks, individual gifts of socks with superhero print on the ankles should be sent "for the kids." This should be accompanied by a letter expressing our resolve and our desire to help any in need of such in Korea...and, if NCSoft has no use for these socks, themselves, our desire to let NCSoft feel what it's like to be a hero when they distribute them to charitable causes of their choice. (See the thread for a discussion of "why socks?")

4) There are two events scheduled for October 20th: a charity game-a-thon and a Media Day. Pulling both off together will give significant human interest impact while greatly broadening the demographics who are aware of this effort. Piquing the interest of even 1% of the broader media audience will magnify our visibility and the pressure on NCSoft considerably.


None of these things are inherently bad in a strict business sense, but we know NCSoft has felt the sting of some sort of PR disaster from their vague and mind-trick laden "go home, it's hopeless" responses thus far. Ramping it up and starting to actively erode their image by hinting at (and threatening to do more than hint) the fact that they're doing bad business and making an angry customer base is very likely to provoke at least another scramble at the top as they strive to figure out how to deal with this.

So keep at it, keep organized. We're not an angry mob; we're a focused and disciplined grass-roots organization that is taking deliberate and measured and increasingly aggressive deliberate steps. General Zod may be able to thrash any number of normal humans, but should ten thousand humans punch him at once, even he would feel it.

Guardia

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #123 on: October 06, 2012, 01:13:14 PM »
Also remember NCsoft just sued a Japanese man for a shadow server of Aion. They even going after some of the players on the server. How you sue a guy over a privet server that both game use F2P syatem.
Mostly because lack of profit does not affect legality.

Copying and sharing someone else's work without permission is against the law in most nations, regardless of if you're making money or not.

Otherwise we'd just copy the CoH game and run it for free, instead of going through the trouble of trying to get ahold of the legal rights to do so.



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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #124 on: October 06, 2012, 01:49:31 PM »
I suspect if Marvel was smart and changed their minds to include a COH-esque custom character creator, and perhaps a city zone that was reminiscent of Paragon City, they'd end up getting a large chunk of the playerbase from here signing up.



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Valjean

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #125 on: October 06, 2012, 01:50:57 PM »
.....None of these things are inherently bad in a strict business sense, but we know NCSoft has felt the sting of some sort of PR disaster from their vague and mind-trick laden "go home, it's hopeless" responses thus far. Ramping it up and starting to actively erode their image by hinting at (and threatening to do more than hint) the fact that they're doing bad business and making an angry customer base is very likely to provoke at least another scramble at the top as they strive to figure out how to deal with this.

So keep at it, keep organized. We're not an angry mob; we're a focused and disciplined grass-roots organization that is taking deliberate and measured and increasingly aggressive deliberate steps. General Zod may be able to thrash any number of normal humans, but should ten thousand humans punch him at once, even he would feel it.

It seems like the actions that had the most immediate response, and got the attention of NCsoft, was when folks started directly e-mailing the executives. That was the one and only time they responded almost immediately.

Segev

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #126 on: October 06, 2012, 02:02:32 PM »
Then we make sure that we mail at least one box of socks to each executive! (As best we can without breaking any privacy laws.)

johnrobey

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #127 on: October 06, 2012, 02:53:30 PM »
Thank you, TonyV and everyone else working to save CoH!  As a fan who also wants to see CoH continue and our dev team back, I've been so (favorably) impressed by this community.  I have little constructive to offer at this time other than my thanks and a pledge to take part in whatever community actions are next planned in our Save/Salvage efforts and to continue to get the word out to veteran players who don't follow forums.  Take care and Stay SUPER!!!
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darkgob

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #128 on: October 06, 2012, 02:58:39 PM »
A Semi-unpleasant idea to put forward to NCSoft - Keeping the game going but at a lower level - meaning to sacrifice some servers. Closing some 2 or 3 servers to preserve the rest.
They might actually go for this since it's a surefire way to kill the game.

Tanglefoe

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #129 on: October 06, 2012, 03:20:13 PM »
I keep thinking more and more about this so I thought I would say something.  NCSoft is seriously racking up a body count on games, and there was the rumor about buying out Valve, which got me thinking.  What if they are trying to create some sort of outlet like Steam to throw all their dead MMOs into?  You download Steam (or their version of it), pay $$$ each month to play a collection of old, dead and gone MMOs, and they're in the head hunting stage with games, and they just scored big with a game like CoH, which could explain a motive to not sell for mega bucks and sit on so many closed games.  I'll admit this is a pretty wild idea, but if it were true it could explain a lot.

P51mus

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #130 on: October 06, 2012, 03:50:36 PM »
I keep thinking more and more about this so I thought I would say something.  NCSoft is seriously racking up a body count on games, and there was the rumor about buying out Valve, which got me thinking.  What if they are trying to create some sort of outlet like Steam to throw all their dead MMOs into?  You download Steam (or their version of it), pay $$$ each month to play a collection of old, dead and gone MMOs, and they're in the head hunting stage with games, and they just scored big with a game like CoH, which could explain a motive to not sell for mega bucks and sit on so many closed games.  I'll admit this is a pretty wild idea, but if it were true it could explain a lot.

I really really really really doubt it.

Knightslayer

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #131 on: October 06, 2012, 03:59:14 PM »
I really really really really doubt it.
Yep, very, very unlikely.
I imagine if they meant to do that they would've announced it beforehand, so they wouldn't lose any of their current players.

Tanglefoe

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #132 on: October 06, 2012, 04:03:51 PM »
Yeah, I know it is a pretty off the wall idea, but I thought I would see what people think.

ukaserex

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #133 on: October 06, 2012, 04:35:37 PM »
Hmm...

 I graduated years ago with my degree in Business Administration. I don't even use my degree, really. But, there are some things that I do remember. I do know that people are not rational with their money all the time. They don't always make the logical choice, even in light of the evidence.

NCSoft stock - owning a share can give a single vote - but the issue has to come up to be voted on. And, with 1 share costing over 200 us dollars, I could see us getting about 50,000 votes...and what would /could that do? Hard to say, likely not much. I'd actually brought this up a month ago, but the amount of cash needed to make things happen, we could just re-hire paragon studios.

The long and short of it is...we do have a lot of time and money invested in CoH. I know that as much time as the dev team put into creating CoH, I have put at least that much time building my characters and playing the game. And the more time and money we've invested, the more the decision to close CoH bothers us.
 
My mind can think up all sorts of sinister things...like all of us buying a share or two slowly over time.... and then, on a given day in the future - we all put in a sell order at the exact same time. The more stock we hold, the bigger the impact. The problem is, the more stock we hold, the more money we invested in a company whose nebulous business practices are hard to support from an emotional standpoint. Besides, what's heroic about that? We don't forgive people for the people that need forgiving, but we forgive them for us. Life is too short to carry around baggage.

Now, let us suppose that CoH didn't close, but simply just consolidated the resources so they only had a few servers. Not being familiar with all the resources that are required, I'm not at all sure how much time and energy it would take to modify things. In the minds of NCSoft, it might be like putting good money to waste to recoup losses.

I have noticed that our servers used to be shut down for maintenance on a fairly regular basis. Now, not so much. Has anything changed? If so, I can't tell.
What would it cost NCSoft to just let the game keep rolling without new content? How long would it take before apathy from the playerbase set in? At what point would revenue from subs and store purchases drop below the cost to keep a few servers going?

Nexon very recently bought a large chunk of stock of NCSoft. Nexon is also on record that they want to focus on Mobile gaming, whatever that is. (My phone only has Sudoku and an Othello knock-off on it) Perhaps this sudden shift in focus comes from them. Personally, I've no idea.

A large page add in Seoul? It would be expensive. And one day will not be sufficient. In my mind, it would be like a quick poke in the eye, but once the day is over, then what? The next day arrives along with the next edition. I have mentioned before that if we can engage our gamers in South Korea that we might have a stronger voice. This would be one way to reach them.


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Burnt Toast

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #134 on: October 06, 2012, 04:36:42 PM »

Pretty sure NCSoft's plan is a surefire way to kill the game already.


I find it hard to believe if given a choice between the entire game dying...or having to relocate to a different server...most people would prolly choose relocate. CoH with 5-6 servers.. or No CoH... hmmm which would kill the game faster :)





They might actually go for this since it's a surefire way to kill the game.

SithRose

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #135 on: October 06, 2012, 04:43:35 PM »
I will point out that, with the money it would take to become shareholders in NCSoft, it is very likely that we could rebuild a new game with much more effectiveness. Individuals buying shares seems to me to be a less than effective plan - it would be much more effective IMO to keep pressure on the Board and the executives.
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epawtows

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #136 on: October 06, 2012, 05:24:29 PM »
A Semi-unpleasant idea to put forward to NCSoft - Keeping the game going but at a lower level - meaning to sacrifice some servers. Closing some 2 or 3 servers to preserve the rest.

Most of the possible reasons put forward for NCSoft's action (a need to get rid of assets for tax reasons, some sort of lawsuit, etc) argue for an 'all or nothing' approach.  I.E., if they *really* need to take a tax writeoff for closing an operation in this quarter:  shutting down a game gives them that.  Closing a few servers of a game does not.


chaparralshrub

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #137 on: October 06, 2012, 05:47:59 PM »
Well, question in that case: could they shut down the game, then sell it later, and still get the write-offs?

I mean, I'd be happy enough if CoH were offline for a year, say, and then come back up again later.

srmalloy

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #138 on: October 06, 2012, 06:58:17 PM »
However, I think that an even more important question is: What reasons does NCsoft have to not sell City of Heroes?  Because this is the question that really has me scratching my head.  Are there legal issues?  Of course, but are they insurmountable?  Obviously not, as proven by the fact that NCsoft itself acquired complete ownership of the game in 2007 from Cryptic Studios.  Is NCsoft afraid that City of Heroes will become a competitor with the company's other titles?  Then hedge your risk by retaining an ownership stake in the title with no investment obligation.  If it performs well, everyone wins; if it does not, NCsoft has not lost anything.

Are there other issues that are preventing the sale?  If so, then tell us, and together we can figure out some way to work around it or compromise on a solution.  I currently work for one of the largest IT companies in the world, and my full time is dedicated to a client who is also one of the largest manufacturing companies in the world.  In my experience, there is no such thing as exhausting all possibilities in the business world.  When a company wants or needs something to happen, it happens.  When a company says that it has exhausted all possibilities, that means that it did not want or need it badly enough to continue trying.  To me, our current status is simply that we have not yet convinced NCsoft well enough that it wants to sell City of Heroes.

I think the issue may be one of face -- the image NCSoft has of itself as a successful purveyor of online games. Look at NCSoft's games in the Korean market; there is a particular style of game that Korean players favor -- games that tend heavily to extreme amounts of grinding, the requirement for groups to be assembled to complete most of the content past the early levels, and a restricted level of reward to keep players coming back to the in-game store just to keep from falling behind the curve -- and games that don't fit that mold do extremely poorly, as evinced by the failure of CoH in Korea -- a game which is almost the antithesis of the style of MMO popular in Korea.

But City of Heroes has continued to bumble along, producing a steady but not impressive profit in the Western market, while NCSoft has brought MMOs in the Korean style to the Western market again and again, and has repeatedly seen an initial rush of players interested in the 'new shiny', then its popularity trails off as people see how bad the grind-to-reward ratio is. And there's where the issue of 'face' comes in. NCSoft brings in game after game, and their performance sags until they're closed (at least in the US/Europe), while City of Heroes keeps going; this creates the impression that NCSoft doesn't understand the Western market, and what the players here want in an MMO. By killing City of Heroes, they can continue to bring one Korean-style MMO after another to the Western market, and if they don't succeed, NCSoft can convince itself that it's not the play style that's the problem, it's the subject, and if they just find the right background for an MMO, the Western market will instantly recognize the fundamental superiority of the Korean MMO style and play it in droves for years and years.

Selling City of Heroes sets it up to be a perpetual thorn in their side. If it continues to go along turning a profit, however small, it's going to be out there on the MMO market as proof that NCSoft is not competent at presenting games for the Western market -- that not only do they keep bringing game after game to the Western market, all with fundamentally the same playstyle, that the players in that market don't like to play, but they dumped a successful game they ran that players did like to play that was almost the complete opposite of the style of game they keep shoving down our throats, and it's still succeeding after they sold it to another company (which also shows their lack of business sense for dumping a profitable game).

Enson Red Shirt

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Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #139 on: October 06, 2012, 07:47:29 PM »
okay lets see i gave the share structure for ncsoft and the prices (that are fluctuating)
and yes there is an american company suing everyone for infringment for the system used to keep latency issues from being a problem in mmos i have an investment in the company that is suing them as well but heres something else to think of for plan z you can download cryptics animation rig for game development under gnu for use with squid or 3d studio max here http://www.crypticar.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8&Itemid=28

oh and this the company Patent Protected Technology - Establishing a mission to deliver cutting edge technology for the interactive entertainment industry, iEntertainment holds an Internet patent (Patent Number: 6,042,477), integral to the development and support of online gaming. The PATENT, entitled Minimizing Latency Technology, allows companies to develop their online communities with real-time integration and visuals.

IEntertainment Network won Patent Lawsuit "2006" Against Epic Games, Atari, Valve Corporation, Sierra, Sony Online Entertainment and various Sony offices.

Since his return IENT has redone the WarBirds Software, won settlements on their Internet Gaming patent, and developed a Military Consulting Division
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 08:02:39 PM by Enson Red Shirt »