$800k/month profit? I think you mean revenue?

[Burnt Toast]

Which is sad Do you know how I found out about CoH? A tv commercial. I had NEVER played an MMO before. I was sitting there watching tv and saw this commercial http://youtu.be/mxMlw12Okm0 - I got up off the couch...put my shoes on...went to WalMart and grabbed my copy of City of Heroes. I realize tv advertisements are expensive, but CoH's complete lack of advertisement did nothing but hurt the subscription numbers. As recently as July I brought a co-worker into CoH because GASP they had never heard of it before; they play WoW and some other MMO.

Well I can tell you one thing you have conjectured is way out of whack.

Unless you are counting the periodic emails that NCSoft put out to present and former CoH sunscribers as advertising, NCSoft spent $0 on advertising for CoH.

Yes.  That's right.  They had no budget for conventional advertising for CoH.  Confirmed by Brian Clayton. 

One reason why Paragon had taken to creative venues like the Coffee Talks and the other virtual presences.

[Victoria Victrix]

Which is sad Do you know how I found out about CoH? A tv commercial. I had NEVER played an MMO before. I was sitting there watching tv and saw this commercial http://youtu.be/mxMlw12Okm0 - I got up off the couch...put my shoes on...went to WalMart and grabbed my copy of City of Heroes. I realize tv advertisements are expensive, but CoH's complete lack of advertisement did nothing but hurt the subscription numbers. As recently as July I brought a co-worker into CoH because GASP they had never heard of it before; they play WoW and some other MMO.

And when I saw ads for WoW on the Publisher's Clearing House contests I enter (WHAT??  It's free and someone wins once in a while!) and that HUGE Mountain Dew campaign that WoW had going, I kept thinking...wtf NCSoft?  Why aren't you in comic books at least?

[Segev]

...man.

I could do better. And I'm definitely not a marketer by any sort of training. ^^;

[eabrace]

Considering they had no budget for any sort of advertising, I think they did pretty well with what they had.

[Segev]

Yes. I could do better because I'd bloody well give my subsidiaries an advertising budget.

[eabrace]

No argument there. 

[Terwyn]

If the game's saved, I'm definitely going to do what I can to support its marketing.

[void hunter]

Well I can tell you one thing you have conjectured is way out of whack.

Unless you are counting the periodic emails that NCSoft put out to present and former CoH sunscribers as advertising, NCSoft spent $0 on advertising for CoH.

Yes.  That's right.  They had no budget for conventional advertising for CoH.  Confirmed by Brian Clayton. 

One reason why Paragon had taken to creative venues like the Coffee Talks and the other virtual presences.

Well that's $50k, not really a game changer, but you need to include their website upkeep and any internet costs such as any google placement etc. even if these things are completely free then the extra $50k isn't really going to change my statements. Unless of course you have more solid numbers on their operational costs. If that's the case, list them out so we can discuss them openly.

[Victoria Victrix]

Well that's $50k, not really a game changer, but you need to include their website upkeep and any internet costs such as any google placement etc. even if these things are completely free then the extra $50k isn't really going to change my statements. Unless of course you have more solid numbers on their operational costs. If that's the case, list them out so we can discuss them openly.

You know what?  I don't have to.  You know why?  Because the former studio manager, the guy who must have had every bit of information at his disposal, is trying to buy the property.  He's not in the business of losing money.  He's not in it to get investors and then have the studio crash and burn under him.  He knows exactly how much it cost to run and if it is viable.  What good is it going to be to him if the studio goes under?  He'll have angry investors suing him, and a blot on his resume so big no one will ever hire him in game work again.  If he didn't want it, it would be a different story, but he has told several of us that buying the IP is a big part of his plan.

In other words, the one person who is the single best placed individual to know whether or not the game, and the studio, was profitable is the one trying to buy it.  That should be all you or anyone else needs to know.

[DrakeGrimm]

You know what?  I don't have to.  You know why?  Because the former studio manager, the guy who must have had every bit of information at his disposal, is trying to buy the property.  He's not in the business of losing money.  He's not in it to get investors and then have the studio crash and burn under him.  He knows exactly how much it cost to run and if it is viable.  What good is it going to be to him if the studio goes under?  He'll have angry investors suing him, and a blot on his resume so big no one will ever hire him in game work again.  If he didn't want it, it would be a different story, but he has told several of us that buying the IP is a big part of his plan.

In other words, the one person who is the single best placed individual to know whether or not the game, and the studio, was profitable is the one trying to buy it.  That should be all you or anyone else needs to know.

As usual, VV strikes hard, swift, and with deadly accuracy!

[gandales]

You know what?  I don't have to.  You know why?  Because the former studio manager, the guy who must have had every bit of information at his disposal, is trying to buy the property.  He's not in the business of losing money.  He's not in it to get investors and then have the studio crash and burn under him.  He knows exactly how much it cost to run and if it is viable.  What good is it going to be to him if the studio goes under?  He'll have angry investors suing him, and a blot on his resume so big no one will ever hire him in game work again.  If he didn't want it, it would be a different story, but he has told several of us that buying the IP is a big part of his plan.

In other words, the one person who is the single best placed individual to know whether or not the game, and the studio, was profitable is the one trying to buy it.  That should be all you or anyone else needs to know.

No, that is not necessarily true. People can buy unprofitable companies in hopes they can turn them around with a different approach, especially if they get them at low price. It wouldn't be the first case and definitely not the last. I am not saying that either VV or voidhunter are right or not, but again until the numbers are shown explicitly is just speculation.

I can't help being concern when we are encouraged  to shut up and take something as an undeniable truth.





 

[void hunter]

Wow, did I step on someone's toes here? Is the former manager here throwing out numbers like everyone else? Yeah I'm sure someone in the system knows this stuff, the question at play here is simple, has that person shared these numbers with you or anyone else? Why exactly are you getting so defensive? No one has said that Paragon couldn't be profitable, but you really should think about something for a second. Just because Paragon was in the black doesn't mean NCsoft was actually profiting enough off of Paragon to justify continuing with them. By the time the money filtered back to Korea there may have been very little left.

The question I'm raising is does NCSoft stand to make more by taking a loss and using it as a write-off than they would from selling the game? If so, then they will be reluctant, and understanding this puts everyone in a better position for making decisions. I'm a business owner and have personally taken out 2 business loans in the past 3 years, so actually I have some experience in this area.

On a side note if you (VV) and Drake are this emotionally overcharged about this, then maybe the two of you should take a break and let other people talk while you guys recover and collect yourselves. I didn't insult either of you and for some reason you want to come at me as if I have. If you want to apologize, fine. If not then I'm just going to ignore the two of you k?

[DrakeGrimm]

Wow, did I step on someone's toes here? Is the former manager here throwing out numbers like everyone else? Yeah I'm sure someone in the system knows this stuff, the question at play here is simple, has that person shared these numbers with you or anyone else? Why exactly are you getting so defensive? No one has said that Paragon couldn't be profitable, but you really should think about something for a second. Just because Paragon was in the black doesn't mean NCsoft was actually profiting enough off of Paragon to justify continuing with them. By the time the money filtered back to Korea there may have been very little left.

The question I'm raising is does NCSoft stand to make more by taking a loss and using it as a write-off than they would from selling the game? If so, then they will be reluctant, and understanding this puts everyone in a better position for making decisions. I'm a business owner and have personally taken out 2 business loans in the past 3 years, so actually I have some experience in this area.

On a side note if you (VV) and Drake are this emotionally overcharged about this, then maybe the two of you should take a break and let other people talk while you guys recover and collect yourselves. I didn't insult either of you and for some reason you want to come at me as if I have. If you want to apologize, fine. If not then I'm just going to ignore the two of you k?

The point is that no one here needs to know those numbers. The people who need them already have them.

[void hunter]

The point is that no one here needs to know those numbers. The people who need them already have them.

I don't see you interjecting into every thread where someone mentions how they think the game was making millions of dollars and telling them the numbers don't need to be discussed. Actually I bet if I look through your posts you've discussed it at one point or another. No one "needed" to know why NCSoft decided to end the game either for that matter. You can decide for yourself whether or not you want to have a reasonable discussion about this, but you're NOT going to make that decision for me or anyone else that chooses to.

[BryanSnowden]

[Minotaur]

Wow, did I step on someone's toes here? Is the former manager here throwing out numbers like everyone else? Yeah I'm sure someone in the system knows this stuff, the question at play here is simple, has that person shared these numbers with you or anyone else? Why exactly are you getting so defensive? No one has said that Paragon couldn't be profitable, but you really should think about something for a second. Just because Paragon was in the black doesn't mean NCsoft was actually profiting enough off of Paragon to justify continuing with them. By the time the money filtered back to Korea there may have been very little left.

The question I'm raising is does NCSoft stand to make more by taking a loss and using it as a write-off than they would from selling the game? If so, then they will be reluctant, and understanding this puts everyone in a better position for making decisions. I'm a business owner and have personally taken out 2 business loans in the past 3 years, so actually I have some experience in this area.

On a side note if you (VV) and Drake are this emotionally overcharged about this, then maybe the two of you should take a break and let other people talk while you guys recover and collect yourselves. I didn't insult either of you and for some reason you want to come at me as if I have. If you want to apologize, fine. If not then I'm just going to ignore the two of you k?

It's very possible Paragon studios wasn't profitable, they had a load of people (including several ex CoH people) working on a project for some time that was nowhere close to generating any revenue (different IP), and disengaging that from the CoH figures in any published information I've seen is well nigh impossible.

I think the assumption that CoH was break even or better is almost a given. NCSoft could have said in effect that the game wasn't making money and they were shutting it down, the TR shutdown notice as I've seen it quoted said "the game was not performing as expected", Auto assault they admitted was because of low sub numbers, nothing like that has been said about CoH.

[Victoria Victrix]

Wow, did I step on someone's toes here? Is the former manager here throwing out numbers like everyone else? Yeah I'm sure someone in the system knows this stuff, the question at play here is simple, has that person shared these numbers with you or anyone else?

On a side note if you (VV) and Drake are this emotionally overcharged about this, then maybe the two of you should take a break and let other people talk while you guys recover and collect yourselves. I didn't insult either of you and for some reason you want to come at me as if I have. If you want to apologize, fine. If not then I'm just going to ignore the two of you k?

Any businessman would know why those numbers are not being bandied about in public, nor why they have not been shared with me or anyone else that is not a potential investor. 

I don't have that kind of money, so frankly actual numbers are none of my business.  However, even if they had been shared with me, they would come under the heading of "sensitive information" and that the very last thing any businessman would expect or ask for would be to demand that I put them out in public. 

If you do have the requisite money to invest, by all means, I will be happy to put you in touch with Brian.  After you prove to him that you are a potential investor, that you can come up with the money on his terms, and that you can be trusted in a sensitive business negotiation, your curiosity will be satisfied.

I work with words for a living.  I certainly do not owe you an apology.  If anything, I believe the reverse is true.

[Atlantea]

On a side note if you (VV) and Drake are this emotionally overcharged about this, then maybe the two of you should take a break and let other people talk while you guys recover and collect yourselves. I didn't insult either of you and for some reason you want to come at me as if I have. If you want to apologize, fine. If not then I'm just going to ignore the two of you k?

Wow, condescend much? Methinks thou dost protest too much yourself! Perhaps YOU should step away from the keyboard for a bit. You've invested yourself too much in your own argument and the ego sustaining same.

[Zolgar]

Wow, condescend much? Methinks thou dost protest too much yourself! Perhaps YOU should step away from the keyboard for a bit. You've invested yourself too much in your own argument and the ego sustaining same.

Methinks that a decent chunk of the people in this thread need to take a step back, chill and consume a tasty frozen dairy concoction.

There's a lot of valid points, but there's a lot of un-needed aggression. The last thing this movement needs is it's people at each others throats over some stupid disagreement.

[Atlantea]

Methinks that a decent chunk of the people in this thread need to take a step back, chill and consume a tasty frozen dairy concoction.

There's a lot of valid points, but there's a lot of un-needed aggression. The last thing this movement needs is it's people at each others throats over some stupid disagreement.

Yeah. You're right. I retract my accusation above.