$800k/month profit? I think you mean revenue?

[Burnt Toast]

Which is sad :( Do you know how I found out about CoH? A tv commercial. I had NEVER played an MMO before. I was sitting there watching tv and saw this commercial http://youtu.be/mxMlw12Okm0 - I got up off the couch...put my shoes on...went to WalMart and grabbed my copy of City of Heroes. I realize tv advertisements are expensive, but CoH's complete lack of advertisement did nothing but hurt the subscription numbers. As recently as July I brought a co-worker into CoH because GASP they had never heard of it before; they play WoW and some other MMO.

Well I can tell you one thing you have conjectured is way out of whack.

Unless you are counting the periodic emails that NCSoft put out to present and former CoH sunscribers as advertising, NCSoft spent $0 on advertising for CoH.

Yes.  That's right.  They had no budget for conventional advertising for CoH.  Confirmed by Brian Clayton. 

One reason why Paragon had taken to creative venues like the Coffee Talks and the other virtual presences.

[Victoria Victrix]

Which is sad :( Do you know how I found out about CoH? A tv commercial. I had NEVER played an MMO before. I was sitting there watching tv and saw this commercial http://youtu.be/mxMlw12Okm0 - I got up off the couch...put my shoes on...went to WalMart and grabbed my copy of City of Heroes. I realize tv advertisements are expensive, but CoH's complete lack of advertisement did nothing but hurt the subscription numbers. As recently as July I brought a co-worker into CoH because GASP they had never heard of it before; they play WoW and some other MMO.

And when I saw ads for WoW on the Publisher's Clearing House contests I enter (WHAT??  It's free and someone wins once in a while!) and that HUGE Mountain Dew campaign that WoW had going, I kept thinking...wtf NCSoft?  Why aren't you in comic books at least?

[Segev]

...man.

I could do better. And I'm definitely not a marketer by any sort of training. ^^;

[eabrace]

Considering they had no budget for any sort of advertising, I think they did pretty well with what they had.

[Segev]

Yes. I could do better because I'd bloody well give my subsidiaries an advertising budget.

[eabrace]

No argument there.  :)

[Terwyn]

If the game's saved, I'm definitely going to do what I can to support its marketing.

[void hunter]

Well I can tell you one thing you have conjectured is way out of whack.

Unless you are counting the periodic emails that NCSoft put out to present and former CoH sunscribers as advertising, NCSoft spent $0 on advertising for CoH.

Yes.  That's right.  They had no budget for conventional advertising for CoH.  Confirmed by Brian Clayton. 

One reason why Paragon had taken to creative venues like the Coffee Talks and the other virtual presences.

Well that's $50k, not really a game changer, but you need to include their website upkeep and any internet costs such as any google placement etc. even if these things are completely free then the extra $50k isn't really going to change my statements. Unless of course you have more solid numbers on their operational costs. If that's the case, list them out so we can discuss them openly.

[Victoria Victrix]

Well that's $50k, not really a game changer, but you need to include their website upkeep and any internet costs such as any google placement etc. even if these things are completely free then the extra $50k isn't really going to change my statements. Unless of course you have more solid numbers on their operational costs. If that's the case, list them out so we can discuss them openly.

You know what?  I don't have to.  You know why?  Because the former studio manager, the guy who must have had every bit of information at his disposal, is trying to buy the property.  He's not in the business of losing money.  He's not in it to get investors and then have the studio crash and burn under him.  He knows exactly how much it cost to run and if it is viable.  What good is it going to be to him if the studio goes under?  He'll have angry investors suing him, and a blot on his resume so big no one will ever hire him in game work again.  If he didn't want it, it would be a different story, but he has told several of us that buying the IP is a big part of his plan.

In other words, the one person who is the single best placed individual to know whether or not the game, and the studio, was profitable is the one trying to buy it.  That should be all you or anyone else needs to know.

[DrakeGrimm]

You know what?  I don't have to.  You know why?  Because the former studio manager, the guy who must have had every bit of information at his disposal, is trying to buy the property.  He's not in the business of losing money.  He's not in it to get investors and then have the studio crash and burn under him.  He knows exactly how much it cost to run and if it is viable.  What good is it going to be to him if the studio goes under?  He'll have angry investors suing him, and a blot on his resume so big no one will ever hire him in game work again.  If he didn't want it, it would be a different story, but he has told several of us that buying the IP is a big part of his plan.

In other words, the one person who is the single best placed individual to know whether or not the game, and the studio, was profitable is the one trying to buy it.  That should be all you or anyone else needs to know.

As usual, VV strikes hard, swift, and with deadly accuracy! :)

[gandales]

You know what?  I don't have to.  You know why?  Because the former studio manager, the guy who must have had every bit of information at his disposal, is trying to buy the property.  He's not in the business of losing money.  He's not in it to get investors and then have the studio crash and burn under him.  He knows exactly how much it cost to run and if it is viable.  What good is it going to be to him if the studio goes under?  He'll have angry investors suing him, and a blot on his resume so big no one will ever hire him in game work again.  If he didn't want it, it would be a different story, but he has told several of us that buying the IP is a big part of his plan.

In other words, the one person who is the single best placed individual to know whether or not the game, and the studio, was profitable is the one trying to buy it.  That should be all you or anyone else needs to know.

No, that is not necessarily true. People can buy unprofitable companies in hopes they can turn them around with a different approach, especially if they get them at low price. It wouldn't be the first case and definitely not the last. I am not saying that either VV or voidhunter are right or not, but again until the numbers are shown explicitly is just speculation.

I can't help being concern when we are encouraged  to shut up and take something as an undeniable truth.

[void hunter]

Wow, did I step on someone's toes here? Is the former manager here throwing out numbers like everyone else? Yeah I'm sure someone in the system knows this stuff, the question at play here is simple, has that person shared these numbers with you or anyone else? Why exactly are you getting so defensive? No one has said that Paragon couldn't be profitable, but you really should think about something for a second. Just because Paragon was in the black doesn't mean NCsoft was actually profiting enough off of Paragon to justify continuing with them. By the time the money filtered back to Korea there may have been very little left.

The question I'm raising is does NCSoft stand to make more by taking a loss and using it as a write-off than they would from selling the game? If so, then they will be reluctant, and understanding this puts everyone in a better position for making decisions. I'm a business owner and have personally taken out 2 business loans in the past 3 years, so actually I have some experience in this area.

On a side note if you (VV) and Drake are this emotionally overcharged about this, then maybe the two of you should take a break and let other people talk while you guys recover and collect yourselves. I didn't insult either of you and for some reason you want to come at me as if I have. If you want to apologize, fine. If not then I'm just going to ignore the two of you k?

[DrakeGrimm]

Wow, did I step on someone's toes here? Is the former manager here throwing out numbers like everyone else? Yeah I'm sure someone in the system knows this stuff, the question at play here is simple, has that person shared these numbers with you or anyone else? Why exactly are you getting so defensive? No one has said that Paragon couldn't be profitable, but you really should think about something for a second. Just because Paragon was in the black doesn't mean NCsoft was actually profiting enough off of Paragon to justify continuing with them. By the time the money filtered back to Korea there may have been very little left.

The question I'm raising is does NCSoft stand to make more by taking a loss and using it as a write-off than they would from selling the game? If so, then they will be reluctant, and understanding this puts everyone in a better position for making decisions. I'm a business owner and have personally taken out 2 business loans in the past 3 years, so actually I have some experience in this area.

On a side note if you (VV) and Drake are this emotionally overcharged about this, then maybe the two of you should take a break and let other people talk while you guys recover and collect yourselves. I didn't insult either of you and for some reason you want to come at me as if I have. If you want to apologize, fine. If not then I'm just going to ignore the two of you k?

The point is that no one here needs to know those numbers. The people who need them already have them.

[void hunter]

The point is that no one here needs to know those numbers. The people who need them already have them.

I don't see you interjecting into every thread where someone mentions how they think the game was making millions of dollars and telling them the numbers don't need to be discussed. Actually I bet if I look through your posts you've discussed it at one point or another. No one "needed" to know why NCSoft decided to end the game either for that matter. You can decide for yourself whether or not you want to have a reasonable discussion about this, but you're NOT going to make that decision for me or anyone else that chooses to.

[BryanSnowden]

The only true data point anyone outside of Paragon Studios or NCSoft has is the NCSoft release of their quarterly figures for investors report. Anything outside of that including what it cost to pay, insure, cover facility fees and so on is pure conjecture. There's no point in going with this guess work.

Actually those "Investor Relations" Reports - were far from *true* data points = See Page 2 of those PDF Reports:

Some of the information and data in the material have been prepared based on assumptions. There can be no assurance that the assumptions used by NCsoft are correct and even if they are, that the effect of such assumptions on NCsoft's business and results of operations will be as projected.
Therefore, NCsoft will not be responsible for individual investment decisions based solely on this material.
The financial results for 2Q 2012 have been prepared on an un-audited basis, and may be subject to change during independent auditing process.

If you look at ALL those reports (and the actual audits for previous years) = although the NCsoft global site basically stopped updating anything related to NCsoft West or NCsoft Interactive after the Tabula Rasa  {ahem} *kerfuffle*...
Its hard to tell precisely what was attributed the US and/or UK, and in several cases what were the costs of the "westernization" of specific games. wand the numbers were buried in *fuzzy-looking* record keeping that would/could/might have been construed as intentionally misleading or even fraudulent = IF it weren't for that Disclaimer at the front of each IR Report. The available "Audits" numbers' are quite vague (IMO), and don't say much of anything about specific games, they refer more to markets/genres and the Subsidiaries/Parent Companies/Royalties/etc. are mostly *overall figures* which conveniently obscure anything resembling truly useful information.  They probably don't have to be - they appear to be the bare minimums - required by law, and not much else.

They certainly aren't helpful for trying  to determine the figures/info we're actually hunting for...

After just a tiny bit of research - it appears that "Investor Relations Reports" - (aka "I.R. Reports' on the NCsoft Global site) = seem to be designed as 'crisis management' or reassuring the investors that:
  "No really, everything is gonna be just fine. See all these pretty charts (that highlight only the things we want you to see & nothing that looks all that bad), and here's where the minor problems/hurdles are, and here's what we are already doing to address them..." (which is followed by an exposition full of the latest & greatest *industry buzzwords*, meant to reassure them (their)/"your money is perfectly safe! As long as (they)/we do these few things... which to re-iterate = we're already hard at work on - as you can see here"  (= By looking at this handy PDF, that we gave you a moment ago. That starts-off with a disclaimer saying it's made of roughly 70% guesstimates and 30% *happythough-tainium*)

An Example of non-specificity: Aion made money on some level(s) and tanked on others, Now to me & others = it really looks like that it's the profit was nearly all in Asia, and that it tanked in the US - at least after after a certain point.

But, Carbine Studios has been in operation since 2007 working on Wildstar - but that only became public knowledge a year ago. Those were years of investing with no tangible results aside from some concept art and a promise, there was a similar set-up with Guild Wars 2, Blade & Soul = and these two titles have been hyped in the IR Reports for the last 2-3 years as "Upcoming Blockbusters" set up to really turn a humungous profit in the next few (or near-future) Financial Quarters.

Basically, The same thing happened with Tabula Rasa, it was 5 years in the making and with Taek Jin Kim - saying 'it's gonna be worth the investment...'  Then the Garriotts said, 'Yeah but its not gonna succeed with all this Korean-Fantasy Peanut Butter in our American-Dystopian/Sci-Fi Chocolate' = that's not always a good combo (please forgive the tortured metaphor). TR didn't get much support aside from inside NCsoft except Taek Jin Kim & he was seemingly relegated to defending his decision at that point - and there were reasons it didn't succeed commercially (They didn't get to finish the last of the major things it should have had at launch til the end or near the end & the players/crowd that migrated there from PvP-heavy games was "lacking in civility", the Beta was open to a bunch of folks and some stuff the race to the finish folks did 90% of it before it came out and "finished" most of the rest of what they considered "content" in the first month or so.)

Meanwhile, NCsoft  essentially (AFAIK) went back and revamped the original TR stuff they had - and came up with Aion, then tried to push it on the West, at great expense = And it flopped like Garriott & most Westerners said it would.

NCsoft global's site has next to nothing in English post-TR, the last CoH info they had on there before the "refocusing" was from Issue 22 - and that was after you dug into the Games section in the regular News portion the last *News entries" are from several year ago.

Do we have anyone here that can read Korean? And dig thru the NCsoft global website more thoroughly?

To look into the News reports or the Korean language versions of financial reports that don't seem to exist in the "English" archives, and info on the progress on Guild Wars 2, Blade & Soul, Aion, Wildstar, etc.

[Minotaur]

Wow, did I step on someone's toes here? Is the former manager here throwing out numbers like everyone else? Yeah I'm sure someone in the system knows this stuff, the question at play here is simple, has that person shared these numbers with you or anyone else? Why exactly are you getting so defensive? No one has said that Paragon couldn't be profitable, but you really should think about something for a second. Just because Paragon was in the black doesn't mean NCsoft was actually profiting enough off of Paragon to justify continuing with them. By the time the money filtered back to Korea there may have been very little left.

The question I'm raising is does NCSoft stand to make more by taking a loss and using it as a write-off than they would from selling the game? If so, then they will be reluctant, and understanding this puts everyone in a better position for making decisions. I'm a business owner and have personally taken out 2 business loans in the past 3 years, so actually I have some experience in this area.

On a side note if you (VV) and Drake are this emotionally overcharged about this, then maybe the two of you should take a break and let other people talk while you guys recover and collect yourselves. I didn't insult either of you and for some reason you want to come at me as if I have. If you want to apologize, fine. If not then I'm just going to ignore the two of you k?

It's very possible Paragon studios wasn't profitable, they had a load of people (including several ex CoH people) working on a project for some time that was nowhere close to generating any revenue (different IP), and disengaging that from the CoH figures in any published information I've seen is well nigh impossible.

I think the assumption that CoH was break even or better is almost a given. NCSoft could have said in effect that the game wasn't making money and they were shutting it down, the TR shutdown notice as I've seen it quoted said "the game was not performing as expected", Auto assault they admitted was because of low sub numbers, nothing like that has been said about CoH.

[Victoria Victrix]

Wow, did I step on someone's toes here? Is the former manager here throwing out numbers like everyone else? Yeah I'm sure someone in the system knows this stuff, the question at play here is simple, has that person shared these numbers with you or anyone else?

On a side note if you (VV) and Drake are this emotionally overcharged about this, then maybe the two of you should take a break and let other people talk while you guys recover and collect yourselves. I didn't insult either of you and for some reason you want to come at me as if I have. If you want to apologize, fine. If not then I'm just going to ignore the two of you k?

Any businessman would know why those numbers are not being bandied about in public, nor why they have not been shared with me or anyone else that is not a potential investor. 

I don't have that kind of money, so frankly actual numbers are none of my business.  However, even if they had been shared with me, they would come under the heading of "sensitive information" and that the very last thing any businessman would expect or ask for would be to demand that I put them out in public. 

If you do have the requisite money to invest, by all means, I will be happy to put you in touch with Brian.  After you prove to him that you are a potential investor, that you can come up with the money on his terms, and that you can be trusted in a sensitive business negotiation, your curiosity will be satisfied.

I work with words for a living.  I certainly do not owe you an apology.  If anything, I believe the reverse is true.

[Atlantea]

On a side note if you (VV) and Drake are this emotionally overcharged about this, then maybe the two of you should take a break and let other people talk while you guys recover and collect yourselves. I didn't insult either of you and for some reason you want to come at me as if I have. If you want to apologize, fine. If not then I'm just going to ignore the two of you k?

Wow, condescend much? Methinks thou dost protest too much yourself! Perhaps YOU should step away from the keyboard for a bit. You've invested yourself too much in your own argument and the ego sustaining same.

[Zolgar]

Wow, condescend much? Methinks thou dost protest too much yourself! Perhaps YOU should step away from the keyboard for a bit. You've invested yourself too much in your own argument and the ego sustaining same.

Methinks that a decent chunk of the people in this thread need to take a step back, chill and consume a tasty frozen dairy concoction.

There's a lot of valid points, but there's a lot of un-needed aggression. The last thing this movement needs is it's people at each others throats over some stupid disagreement.

[Atlantea]

Methinks that a decent chunk of the people in this thread need to take a step back, chill and consume a tasty frozen dairy concoction.

There's a lot of valid points, but there's a lot of un-needed aggression. The last thing this movement needs is it's people at each others throats over some stupid disagreement.

Yeah. You're right. I retract my accusation above.