Author Topic: State of the Titan  (Read 106846 times)

Samuraiko

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #160 on: September 26, 2012, 04:50:16 AM »
* DrakeGrimm sings "Uprising" by Muse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8KQmps-Sog

I think I still have my script for a Praetoria video to this song...

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DrakeGrimm

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #161 on: September 26, 2012, 04:58:32 AM »
I think I still have my script for a Praetoria video to this song...

Michelle
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It's a great song for it, isn't it?
We are the crazy ones, the mavericks, the dreamers, the forgotten sons. We color outside the lines for fun. We are the crazy ones! - "The Crazy Ones," Stellar Revival

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StarRanger4

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #162 on: September 26, 2012, 06:36:07 AM »
Back ON topic, Brian told me he hoped to have some news a little after midweek.  Please note he said HOPED, so this is not a promise of anything.

I hope so.  Good, or not, this waiting has been pushing my symptoms past where the Paxil can control

DrakeGrimm

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #163 on: September 26, 2012, 06:54:44 AM »
I hope so.  Good, or not, this waiting has been pushing my symptoms past where the Paxil can control

* DrakeGrimm gives StarRanger4 a big ol' Grimmy Hug.

Hang in there, mate.
We are the crazy ones, the mavericks, the dreamers, the forgotten sons. We color outside the lines for fun. We are the crazy ones! - "The Crazy Ones," Stellar Revival

"We put ourselves in "the attitude of heroes"--and we all became a little more heroic." - VV

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #164 on: September 26, 2012, 06:58:53 AM »
I hope so.  Good, or not, this waiting has been pushing my symptoms past where the Paxil can control

For me, it's Absinthe...

Samuraiko

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #165 on: September 26, 2012, 07:31:07 AM »
For me, it's Absinthe...

Of course, absinthe makes the heart grow fonder. *grins*

Michelle
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Coolio_Wolfus

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #166 on: September 26, 2012, 09:01:45 AM »

DrakeGrimm

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #167 on: September 26, 2012, 09:07:00 AM »
"Imagine" by A Perfect Circle.
We are the crazy ones, the mavericks, the dreamers, the forgotten sons. We color outside the lines for fun. We are the crazy ones! - "The Crazy Ones," Stellar Revival

"We put ourselves in "the attitude of heroes"--and we all became a little more heroic." - VV

Hyperstrike

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #168 on: September 26, 2012, 01:38:23 PM »
Hey guys.  Just wanted to barge in and say "don't jump ship" yet.

We've still got a couple months here, and the negotiations with NCSoft are ongoing.

Until we get notice from the guys at Paragon that this is dead, it ain't over.

I know it's killing you all that you're hearing so little "officially".  Unfortunately, business negotiations are kinda like that.

In the mean time, there are bad guys in Paragon City in need of a thorough whupping.
I suggest we oblige them!

Segev

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #169 on: September 26, 2012, 01:39:33 PM »
Don't forget the vile deeds that need doing in the Rogue Isles!


steelrat70

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #170 on: September 26, 2012, 04:13:51 PM »
Hey guys.  Just wanted to barge in and say "don't jump ship" yet.

We've still got a couple months here, and the negotiations with NCSoft are ongoing.

Until we get notice from the guys at Paragon that this is dead, it ain't over.

I know it's killing you all that you're hearing so little "officially".  Unfortunately, business negotiations are kinda like that.

In the mean time, there are bad guys in Paragon City in need of a thorough whupping.
I suggest we oblige them!

QFT.

Me n the missus are currently duo'ing our hearts out so that she can get her first 50 before the servers shut down.  She started playing in June, absolutely fell in love with the game (having never played a PC game before) and was probably more upset than me at the news of its impending demise.

If you're on Union and see either of her toons (Dream Evils Eve - Fire / Dark Corr or Si Klone - Grav / Storm Cont) be nice ;)

steelrat70

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #171 on: September 26, 2012, 04:32:04 PM »
I hope she is enjoying the keyboard that she won ;)

Ha ha..  she's only just stopped enthusing about it to be honest!

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #172 on: September 26, 2012, 06:40:40 PM »
Is that the keyboard that's backlit by tri-colored LED's and can be set to do a rainbow effect?

lmollea

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #173 on: September 26, 2012, 08:48:56 PM »
Hi all, sorry for the english, I'm from europe and english's my "second" language. I won't be short, and these may be random thoughts, apologize in advance for any confusion and mistakes.

Came here pointed probably by a Massive article and read TonyV ideas. The ideas are good, but I'd share my thought on this issue.
I'm 40 years old, I work as an IT consultant (not in games but I have quite decent server and network programming skills) a master degree in engineering and CS with 15 years experience.
This is not to boast but only to say that my opinions are based on the hard facts of software developments and companies.

I see a passionate community, but I'd really like to pinpoint one word that very few raised in this discussion.
Money.
And lot of it (think million $).
CoH wont "move" from NCSoft/Nexon hands if we can't raise such amounts. No less.

Some ideas on the shutdown reasons:
* CoH was shut down because it wasn't anymore a profitable enterprise [but see note 1 below]. I was told CoH was running fine, but I never saw real figures (but I remember they shutting down french and german operations just a couple month back).
* CoH may have been profitable but it was endangering NCSoft/Nexon business plans (eating revenues from other games for example). In this case it would be *really, really* hard to strike a bargain.
* CoH was shut down because its operation costs were raising and its owner didn't want to encouragre this trend and Paragon Studios wasn't able to improve the operating costs.
* CoH was shut down because Paragon Studios and NCSoft entered a sort of unresolvable litigation. We may strike a bargain with NCSoft, but not with Paragon.
* CoH was shut down for legal issues. If really Cryptic owns CoH engine, then we may be screwed again: Perfect World - Cryptic's owner - could possibly have revoked the licence from Paragon Studios hands. Why? Licence may have expired and not renewed. Why? Champions Online is strong, why not suffocate the competition?
Note 1: Are there available in US public figures for Paragon Studios balance sheet? Here in Italy all companies must give their balance sheet at the end of the fiscal year at the local "Chamber of Commerce" so that's available for everyone to see. To see it you have to pay a small fee (15E) but can shed some lights on revenues and expenses.

Plans? Honestly I wasn't an active player anymore, but I still logged every now and then just to poke around. I still kept up with the updates and the developments. I still consider myself part of the fantastic community and still have fun memories of the 2+ years I roamed the streets of Paragon.

Anyway, I'd share my thougths on the plans:

A) Acquiring COH. I repeat myself: think millions. And possibly all the possible legal issues that I stated above. Possible, but not really. Would you find thousands of people investing thousands $ in such operation? What would they want then? Revenues? Just a permanent VIP status? I really don't see so many people willing to give all this money and not getting anything back at least worth the money.

A2) Rewriting a spiritual successor. Providing that we won't have any kind of legal issue in writing it, god knows how much I would like that dream to be true, but then I stop, thinking to all the effort needed: programmers are the least. You need game designers, graphics, sound artists, level designers, ... oh, and marketing, you would want that people know you exist, don't you? Again, think millions. And many years. As long as this game *is* the community, would you stick around for 5 or more years if not directly involved in the development? For those who knows planeshift, I still wonder how that goes on, if not for the fact that it's just a playground of some friends that spend part of their day job money on this kind of entertainment. And then don't forget one thing: disappointment. What would the spiritual successor be? Would it appeal to the old players, would it have changes, improvements, betterments, ... Beware, I don't want to bash the idea neither play the doomsayer, just to be realistic in the possible expectations.

B) Another Studio. That would be probably the "shining knight" but I really doubt it. CoH is 2004 technology. Handing over software to someone that wasn't involved in making it only means trouble. The studio would only buy it if they were certain that the game would be profitable in the really short term (< 1 year). I doubt it really much.

C) Reverse engineering. This is no different than A2. Plus all the legal issues. And the fact that when you'll have it up and running would it remain "fixed" or would it evolve? Will there be new "Issues"? MMO works because they are all living and evolving beasts. A static beast would not be interesting for anyone. And bandwith and server all have a cost and bills need to be paid. No, we're not talking about the 15$ of a wordpress account, it's something at least in the 100k/year order.

Other ideas?

Until we know what's really caused the sudden closure of the game, we can only speculate. I'd add my idea, provided that NCSoft *and all other interested parties* can be conviced to let CoH live.
If it's real what you said, that CoH at certain moments was running with 40 people behind it (I include all the necessary people in it: programmes, game designers, support and operations, ...) to replicate it we either would need 40 paid people with the same skills. Or maybe 200 volunteers distributed in all the different areas to equal them. Working 8x5 can be achieved nearly with 5 times the people. I'd give 5-10 hours of my time to such a project, as long as I have a job on my day hours. Younger people may give more hours but I'm basing my estimates on an average. Anyway, I would pay them a little, why? All the Open Source projects that work are generally those funded at least in part by a company. Pure volunteering means that you can leave your tasks unfinished simply because you're bored, you found something more interesting, or because your "real life" brings you away from your "hobbies". Money can keep people focused and directed toward an objective. It would not be a "permanent contract" but only task based. Giving the right quotation can be the hard part, but let's say that this model can work.
Then we'd have server, bandwidth, et cetera.
Then we'd have to protect the IP as per NCSoft willing. IP is NCSoft propriety and if they won't relinquish it, we would have to keep it protected. No Open Source, then. No Creative Commons for the artwork. No revealing of possible industrial secrets. And that would be really hard especially with volunteer which you cannot control or arent behind the same company firewall.
Then as per plan B) we'd have to learn the operation an the inner facts (and WTFs) of the code and game. No easy task.

All this means the game won't be free or at least it would follow the same F2P revenue model it had just before shutdown. We'd have to make it "profitable" or at least run at its costs. How? I don't know if a "no profit" organization could run this (that depends on laws and the country in which this resides, I'm no expert in US laws) or we should have a company: who'd own the company? Who'd run the project anyway? Who'd give directions, orders, recruit people, ... and we'd have expectations of customers to meet...
Things aren't easy at all...

How we can convice NCSoft? Only with money. And this means that they should have a licence cost paid. Either we have to pay them a flat licence or they get a share of the revenue, bast for us would be for example be give a big share but only if we make revenue. This last idea could save us: if we fail, it's only us that lose. If we keep it up, NCSoft will get some money without any effort from her side.
Anyway even if we and NCSoft would agree tomorrow on the contract terms, I wouldn't see a "beta" of the thing available before feb 2013. And live operation not before april/june 2013. And those months we'd still have bills to pay for server and bandwith...

Can we do this? I don't know. There are many passionate people around here, but I'm not so positive. This would be a "second unpaid job" and I don't know how many people would do it.

That's all, hope I shed light on what my thought are. Feel free to comment and ask clarifications.

Segev

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #174 on: September 26, 2012, 09:02:54 PM »
Crytpic did not discontinue the license for the engine, and would not be adverse to continuing to license it to a new owner of the CoH IP.

All reports are that CoH/Paragon Studios were profitable. Perhaps not as profitable as other elements of NCSoft's properties, but it was not due to losing money that it was shut down.

The best indications I've been able to get from my research demonstrate a re-focusing of NCSoft on asian markets, and a disinterest in continuing to spend money - even if it is returning more than is being spent - on games that are only popular in the US. Combine this with numerous employee testimonials about NCSoft's over-micromanaging tendencies in western subsidiaries, it makes sense that NCSoft would not be interested in western subsidiaries' work if it is not popular in the market where their management style helps. They would see the more effort they, personally, put in, the less profitable it became (or at least, they'd see no to negative return on their invested attention).

I cannot claim to be connected in any way to the negotiations between NCSoft and Paragon Studios, and my research has been deductive and inductive rather than explicit in its revelations. I would like to know more, but obviously, they've little reason to share more with me. I do not doubt there are legitimate (I reserve judgment on "good" or "bad") business reasons for their decisions, and you're right; there are possible reasons NCSoft would want to hold onto the IP even as they kill its money-making potential by shutting down its outlet.

Should we find out that money is the deciding issue, I assure you, more than one person is poised to start a kickstarter (and the challenge will be ensuring we start only ONE so as not to split efforts), and others are looking for investors.

People are aware enough of the issues to know they do not know all the issues. We're working with what we have and on getting more information, but...well. It's hard. So it takes time, delicacy, and effort.

Kheprera

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #175 on: September 26, 2012, 09:06:03 PM »
TL;DR just hitting a few points...

We are well aware of the cost of what we are hoping for.  A loose number currently tossed around is ~$10,000,000.00. Likely more.  This is why we hope to find another publisher or investors. Ideas to toss towards investors have included a mobile platform version of the game.

Cryptic has stated that the game engine license had no end date.  It could be used in perpetuity.

As  for a Spiritual Successor... check out the City Sunset forum here.  We already have quite a bit of brainstorming going on.  Your input would be appreciated. :)


Victoria Victrix

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #176 on: September 27, 2012, 12:20:10 AM »
@Imollea

All of your points have been covered pretty adequately already (short of knowing the actual profit figures of Paragon Studios, we have War Witch's personal statement to me, which I can recover in my chat files, of "We were doing so WELL!").  Some of your concerns have been discussed to death.  Please read the rest of the threads, and when you have caught up, get back to us.  I know that is a lot of reading, but you wouldn't jump in with opinions and changes on an existing OS you had been hired to work with without actually LEARNING it, doing your due diligence, and getting up to speed with the rest of the project team, and the same holds here.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

ukaserex

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #177 on: September 27, 2012, 12:46:28 AM »
Hey guys.  Just wanted to barge in and say "don't jump ship" yet.

We've still got a couple months here, and the negotiations with NCSoft are ongoing.

Until we get notice from the guys at Paragon that this is dead, it ain't over.

I know it's killing you all that you're hearing so little "officially".  Unfortunately, business negotiations are kinda like that.

In the mean time, there are bad guys in Paragon City in need of a thorough whupping.
I suggest we oblige them!

Partially because of Hyperstrike's pom-poms  ;D
I have decided to run, or at least try to run another iTrial this weekend. (On Liberty - we're not quite dead there yet.)
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Victoria Victrix

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #178 on: September 27, 2012, 12:53:17 AM »
Now is the time when NCSoft, their PR firm, or both, will try to infiltrate this site with trolls/moles.  We are clearly having an effect.  They want us to "sit down, shut up, go away."  This is well-known tactic dating back to the early days of union organizing and before. 

Watch for new people that are posting nothing but defeatist, negativity and divisiveness.

Watch for people hauling politics into discussions and trying to start fights.

Report to moderators.  Thread starters can self-moderate their own threads.  See something that looks wrong, nuke it.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

emu265

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #179 on: September 27, 2012, 12:59:38 AM »
Now is the time when NCSoft, their PR firm, or both, will try to infiltrate this site with trolls/moles.  We are clearly having an effect.  They want us to "sit down, shut up, go away."  This is well-known tactic dating back to the early days of union organizing and before. 

Watch for new people that are posting nothing but defeatist, negativity and divisiveness.

Watch for people hauling politics into discussions and trying to start fights.

Report to moderators.  Thread starters can self-moderate their own threads.  See something that looks wrong, nuke it.

I addressed this in the FAQ thread, but I'll rehash here as well.

This is a very real tactic.  If this is hurting NCsoft, they're going to do everything in their power to make it stop.  It's no secret that Titan Network is our base of operations and account registration is free and simple.  It'd only take a few minutes to register and post something discouraging.   Given that it's so easy, and possibly effective, why wouldn't they give it a shot?  We made them blink, we cannot pretend like they're ignoring us anymore. 

Even if you want to write this sort of thing off as paranoia, it will not hurt you to keep a watchful eye.  Above all, keep your spirits up.