Author Topic: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.  (Read 7344 times)

QuantumHero

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Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« on: September 17, 2012, 08:49:16 PM »
What is the difference between a product and a service?

A product is a tangible item a consumer purchases which they have the reasonable belief is completely under thier control to utilize for the intended purpose.

A service is a non-tangible use of skills and/or resources that adds value or improves function.  It can be sold seperately or in conjunction with a product.

Now why am I talking about this?  Because the City of Heroes, City of Villians, and Going Rogue Disks that we purchased are a product NOT a service.  They exist for the express purpose of allowing us to play the game and the act of playing the game should convey perpetual USAGE of any intellectual property contained on that disk for the purposes of playing said game.

This is true everywhere except for poor saps like us playing on a server based MMO.  And its not just CoH players who need to challenge that philosophy.

I contend the server is a seperate service which they have every right to discontinue, just as the legal IP holder has every right to cease or continue further development...but NOT to leave us without a functioning product or the right to "repair" our existing product so that it continues to function as a game.

Are these untested legal water, almost definately, but just hear me out.  As far as I'm concerned they can do the right thing and help craft a players bill or rights fo the MMO industry or all players of every single cancelled game should be in a single class action law suit

When you buy a Music CD is that not intellectual property? And do you not have the perpetual right to listen to music for your own private enjoyment irregardless of any other considerations solely based on the fact that you have bought ?.  If the music company offered added value in online content, discontinuing that content doesn't make your CD stop working or give them the right to confiscate the entire CD? 

What about when a band breaks up...does all thier old music just go away?

Lets move to books, if the author switches publishers, a series ends, a book is reprinted, or the author sadly passes on....you can still read your existing books that you purchased.   Right?  Because you bought the book, and that is the purpose of a book.  An outlet through which to read.

How about ebooks, does your ISP, Amazon or anyone else have the right to just randomly encrypt your existing purchase, or otherwise render it no longer opperative?

Lets try a car...imagine a world where a dealer could tell you that your car could only receive fuel, maintenance, or repairs from them...and then they decided to to stop making your car...and you were still bared from getting a single other tank of gas ever from anyone.

Right now we own that car, and they just told us we are closing the only gas station you are allowed to use November 30th.  No judge in thier right mind would ever allow a car company to pull that garbage.

How about a cancelled TV show...are all the DVDs and blue rays you purchased not legally yours to watch in perpetuity?  Does someone take them away from the library, tell buyers that now that the show is ended they can't even watch it at home?

So now lets look at games are they different...and the answer is no the exact same rules should apply, and they sure appear to.

Board games don't get shipped back to companies or destroyed when they are no longer being published, they sit in basements and boxes  And they get played.

Anyone have an original NES, Sega Genesis, Atari, Intellivision, etc...you still have the right to hook them up and play them right?  And what about those game cartridges, thats right you can play them or not as you choose or sell them to a re-seller where someone else can buy and continue to use them.

What about computer games...anyone ever played an old game, had a LAN party, or joined a small private server for a game that is no longer being made.  Assuming your original purchase was legal and all players are also using legal games there is not a single law you are even bending.  No matter how many years have passed since the game was released, or even whether that publisher has folded under thier own abject stupidity.

Since we as a community bought the various city of disks (for those who bought digital copies?)in no way shape or form are we ever going to infringing on anyone's intellectual property rights by USING the item we have puchased for its intended purpose.  So how do we do that when half the code is locked away on a server.

The problem is, irregardless of whether anyone gains the rights to further COH or spin off development (*cough* paragon studios, titan, valve, etc *cough*, as things stand now NCsoft will be leaving us without a viable stand-alone, private server, or LAN enabled version of this game...they don't have to continue supporting or developing for us but they do need to leave us with something that is physically capable of functioning in a near aproximation of what we had.

In other words we purchased a product that came with the service...we are entitled to retain use of that product in a functional capacity.

So as I see it, they can give all VIP and Premiere players a patch or working disk that enables functiong client based gaming while using LAN or the internet to enable teaming.  And still being able to sell this revised version of te game on shelves.

Sell a perpetual usage of server module, maintenance tools, and basic dev tools to the community for reasonable one time fees (giving them some extra income) and us a very easy transition.

Or fully cooperate with community efforts to "port" the game over to a stand alone and/or community server and come out of this as heroes.

That is how you sunset a game...and it has nothing to do with the legal rights to further development...of which I am also in full support.

This community needs to fight for that much, up to and including in a court of law, because if the entire MMO industry does not accept something very similar as industry practice, then every single MMO player of any game needs to enter into a class action law suit and aquire a players bill of rights.

Lets hear from the lawyers....and everyone else   ;)
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DrakeGrimm

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2012, 09:20:34 PM »
*gets popcorn*

This discussion could get pretty interesting...
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Ampithere

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2012, 09:24:15 PM »
Hmm. I like this line of thought. A class action against NCSoft by all of their former players could be pretty interesting to see.
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Teege

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2012, 09:24:21 PM »
I want to point out the game boxes (regardless of "edition") say: "Additional online fees required" & "Internet connection required" with the latter making it clear to the buyer that you need the internet to play it, because it's an online game and will not function in the absence of an internet connection. It seems like a fair warning that you cannot play this game offline and by buying it you understand it will be more or less useless if the required internet connection is removed from the equation. They're not required to make it function offline. So if NCsoft decides to shut down their servers, which is within their rights, the players are unfortunately out of luck. Perhaps I'm off base with this but I wanted to bring it up.
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Ampithere

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2012, 09:27:55 PM »
I want to point out the game boxes (regardless of "edition") say: "Additional online fees required" & "Internet connection required" with the latter making it clear to the buyer that you need the internet to play it, because it's an online game and will not function in the absence of an internet connection. It seems like a fair warning that you cannot play this game offline and by buying it you understand it will be more or less useless if the required internet connection is removed from the equation. They're not required to make it function offline. So if NCsoft decides to shut down their servers, which is within their rights, the players are unfortunately out of luck. Perhaps I'm off base with this but I wanted to bring it up.

Yeah, but it says "internet connection" not "access to NCSoft servers".

It seems like a trivial thing, but didn't someone win a lawsuit a couple years ago because they got burned by hot coffee and the cup said "Contents may be hot" not "Contents may cause burns"?
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Teege

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2012, 09:33:43 PM »
Yeah, but it says "internet connection" not "access to NCSoft servers".

I'd think that is extremely trivial. You know it's a game that will not function offline and you purchased it knowing that if something bad happens you'll be sitting on it. You could have opted not to buy it with the knowledge presented to you. Just saying in my opinion, it seems as frivolous as the mentioned Mc. Donald's lawsuit.
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DrakeGrimm

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2012, 09:40:02 PM »
I'd think that is extremely trivial. You know it's a game that will not function offline and you purchased it knowing that if something bad happens you'll be sitting on it. You could have opted not to buy it with the knowledge presented to you. Just saying in my opinion, it seems as frivolous as the mentioned Mc. Donald's lawsuit.

Frivolous, yes, but it's little language things like that which can win lawsuits.

Please note, I am not a lawyer. No advice I give is to be accepted as legal advice. Please consult your doctor if inflammation, chronic coughing, or nose bleeds occur as a result of using my advice.
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Stormy Weathermaker

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2012, 09:54:23 PM »
Yeah, but it says "internet connection" not "access to NCSoft servers".

It seems like a trivial thing, but didn't someone win a lawsuit a couple years ago because they got burned by hot coffee and the cup said "Contents may be hot" not "Contents may cause burns"?

I like this line of thinking.  Trivial or not, the important thing is it's all in the wording.  Since it is stated "internet connection required" and not "NCSoft server access required" that leaves somewhat of a loop hole, because it wasn't specific enough. So, as long as we have internet connection, we should be able to play the game as long as we have the access to the internet.  It's the "little loop holes" that a lot of people do not think of and sometimes are the ones that could either bite us or save us, depending on your perspective. 

(Just my own personal thoughts and opinion and in no way am I an expert in law nor am I a lawyer)

Teege

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2012, 10:01:22 PM »
I'd be happy if one of our lawyer friends could chime in (not for advice, but rather opinion). Speaking of opinions... I'd like to think we, as heroes, are better than searching for loopholes in an exploration for mass lawsuits.
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downix

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2012, 10:17:05 PM »
I'd think that is extremely trivial. You know it's a game that will not function offline and you purchased it knowing that if something bad happens you'll be sitting on it. You could have opted not to buy it with the knowledge presented to you. Just saying in my opinion, it seems as frivolous as the mentioned Mc. Donald's lawsuit.
Frivilous is not a term I would use for the suit, which found that McDonalds was raising the temperature of their coffee over the 160 degrees allowed by law to over 180 degrees (reportedly 185, at which third degree burns happen in 6 seconds) and that they had been cited multiple times for burns beforehand. The woman who filed the suit suffered severe burns due to the companies negligence.

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/ubb/get_topic/f/107/t/000479.html

billymailman

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2012, 10:34:26 PM »
Actually, any disk-based product that we purchased will continue to work after Nov. 30. Copies of the game client will be able to be booted, and will be able to attempt to connect to, and retrieve content from, specific servers. The product included in the box will 100% work as intended.

The game box, however, contains more than just that product. It also contains a license to the City of Heroes servers. And that license is subject to specific conditions, as outlined in the EULA you need to accept before connecting to the servers. That licence is what NCSoft are terminating. And the EULA gives them the right to terminate it, probably subject to certain conditions (I haven't read it through thoroughly any time recently).

This product+license-to-a-service system is actually pretty much the standard in almost all software, actually. Hell, they pretty much all don't even give you a product as part of the sale, officially. Chances are pretty good, the game disk is legally considered to have been a copy of the game client provided for free with your licence purchase, in order to better facilitate installation. Everything, from Windows, to apps on an iPhone, to single-player video games, are NOT purchased. Every one, you purchase a licence to use the software, subject to some conditions, and if the person you bought the licence from revokes it, then you aren't legally allowed to use that software any more. This applies to anything with an EULA (End User Licensing Agreement).

Xenos

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2012, 10:48:45 PM »
I agree that it's an interesting notion. It's probably a bit more complicated than what you are laying (eg. billymailman's post), but I always thought that MMOs exist in a somewhat gray world concerning ownership.

I certainly purchased a product, heck, I purchased a COH and COV and Going Rogue. 3 products. But I also have been paying subscription fees...because my purchased products don't work without those subscription fees. Just like the box says. So there really could be something there.

Of course the same argument could be taken ad absurdum...what if there was only one COH player left in the world who in 2057 would insist on using his product. Surely you could not require anyone to provide a server for that.

Interesting thought though...

Scott Jackson

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2012, 11:23:35 PM »
The unfortunately-relevant portion of the EULA is 2(c) pasted below.  My own opinion and interpretation of how it applies:

I am ethically (by agreeing) and legally (if the EULA is legally binding) required to stop using the client if NCSoft revokes the license.
I don't know what standard procedure must be followed by NCSoft in order for the license to be considered legally revoked, but that doesn't matter.
For me, legality and ethics are not always the same.
I require explicit written or verbal notice that the "license is revoked" from an NCSoft representative that I accept, in order to feel ethically required to stop using the client.

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License Grant - Any Service, Content or Software supplied by NCsoft is licensed, not sold, by NCsoft. All title and rights not expressly granted in this agreement, including but not limited to any IP right and the display thereof, are retained by NCsoft and/or third-parties under agreement with NCsoft. NCsoft hereby grants You a revocable, non-exclusive, license for personal and non-commercial use of Service, Content and Software that is non-transferable except as permitted under Section 9(c).

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Of course there's always 16(c), which provides all sorts of ways to discard the EULA entirely...at least on ethical grounds.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 11:44:23 PM by Scott Jackson »

billymailman

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2012, 12:01:07 AM »

I require explicit written or verbal notice that the "license is revoked" from an NCSoft representative that I accept, in order to feel ethically required to stop using the client.
Unfortunately, you don't have to just stop using the client. On Nov. 30, when the servers go down, that constitutes NC revoking the license.

Codewalker

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2012, 12:06:27 AM »
Don't forget that there are some laws that take precedence over clickwrap licenses entirely. That's why they include so many "if this provision can't be enforced, then this applies instead" clauses. It's because the writers are trying to get you to give up your rights in a one-sided agreement (I won't even call it a contract since in a real contract both parties are supposed to be equitably benefited), so they throw as much BS in there as possible in the hopes that some of it gets past the protective laws.

This is especially true if you bought a boxed copy in a store. However the details are murky right now, and depending on where you live, you may or may not have a legal leg to stand on. If you're in the 9th Circuit jurisdiction, you're fairly screwed, precedent-wise. If you're in another state then you might be able to claim that it was a sale, and be legally in the clear to bypass any technical measures preventing you from using the product that you purchased. The DMCA has some provisions for bypassing copy-protection in that circumstance -- other forms of reverse engineering may or may not be covered.

There's also the fact that NCSoft did, and currently still does, offer the client free for download -- before you accept any agreements. A court may or may not decide to look upon that as a tacit grant of license to use. For that to work though, you may only be able to use older clients from before they moved the license screen from the launcher (which is not technically required) into the client itself.

Of course you should consult a lawyer first to evaluate your options.

Scott Jackson

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2012, 02:55:21 AM »
On Nov. 30, when the servers go down, that constitutes NC revoking the license.

That's one possible definition.  It may even be the "legal" one in some jurisdictions.  But in case my post wasn't obvious on the point - I am ethically permitted to reject that permissive definition of revocation, as I never agreed to it.  NCSoft isn't the only one who can make EULAs.  My reverse-EULA says that NCSoft is bound to my definitions, by accepting my money.  ;) 

billymailman

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2012, 03:26:06 AM »
That's one possible definition.  It may even be the "legal" one in some jurisdictions.  But in case my post wasn't obvious on the point - I am ethically permitted to reject that permissive definition of revocation, as I never agreed to it.  NCSoft isn't the only one who can make EULAs.  My reverse-EULA says that NCSoft is bound to my definitions, by accepting my money.  ;)

Okay. Meaning what? You'll continue to run the launcher? It's not going to be much good.
I'm sorry, I'm just honestly confused what you're suggesting here. The game client alone is kinda useless.

LT. Couper

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2012, 03:27:33 AM »
I havent understood most of this thread, but I like what i've been getting as the general notion. So, where does this leave us? At a point where we need a lawyer to validate these theories?
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Zolgar

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2012, 04:03:48 AM »
Now it seems to me, being no one even remotely educated in law (but tending to have that super power Deadpool is famous for: common sense)..

The point of this thread is not that NCSoft has to keep the servers running, but that they cannot prevent us from utilizing the software which we have purchased.

This is a very murky area to try and delve in to.. we can use the game client to our hearts content- that is what we purchased. If we try to utilize that game client and our own 3rd party software and servers to be able to continue to play the game, we would then be violating some form of intellectual property laws. The graphics, the names, the places, the power sets, etc. are all copyrighted (even if said copyright wasn't registered). The code used is proprietary, the engine is proprietary..

That's what the service we pay for monthly covers. That's what the EULA covers.

Whether or not EULAs are binding contracts? Don't even want to get in to that..

That said, the idea (I hope it was a joke) of a 'reverse EULA' only works if the company has been given the opportunity to read it, and was required to verify that they have read it before they take your money. If you paid them via PayPal with a message saying "by accepting this money, you are agreeing that you have read and will abide by (link to your TOS)" .. that might actually work. >.>

Scott Jackson

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Re: Seperating Survival from development - our disks are the key.
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2012, 08:13:17 AM »
My point was, that the EULA doesn't define the process by which a license to use the client is revoked.  I never agreed to an NCSoft definition of what makes revocation official.  Therefore, we each decide what that means ethically.

The launcher would be useless; the client is not entirely.  It is needed to play back demorecord files while offline, for example.

So I don't have an ethical problem using it for such a purpose, until I personally receive *proper* notification that the license is revoked.  I'm not telling anyone else what to do legally or ethically here.