News?

[Snow Globe]

Half a billion dollars? Seriously? That's an outrageously high figure; insulting, even. As an investment, a ~1% annual return might beat short-term Treasuries, but those are liquid.

Okay, it seems the previous post wasn't my last. However if you want to continue this discussion via messaging or another thread, let me know.

I've seen 80 million tossed around for the server infrastructure. Add that to their initial purchase and start up costs from taking over from Cryptic, the value of the IP (present and potential), and the investments since the sale that could climb to 150-200 million "on paper" value (a realistic value would be 50-100 million for the game). Add to that NCsoft's reluctance to have a serious competitor buy it and I can easily see NCsoft asking for 500 million just to say that they "tried" to sell the game while still having no intention of doing so.

In reality it is no different than a friend "offering" me a 19" CRT monitor he has barely used for 10 years for $200 because he simply doesn't know the value of an equivalent LCD monitor today. In fact that is a lot like NCsoft with MMOs.

At any rate I'm not going to comment further in this thread.

[Codewalker]

I've seen 80 million tossed around for the server infrastructure.

80 million for server infrastructure is beyond absurd. Even if you're including the software and development costs, when I think of the kind of infrastructure I could build for $80 million... Wow, the game would never go down or lag.  We'd have multiple redundant datacenters around the globe synchronizing information in real time over dedicated fiber, and enough spare processing power and storage to rent out and make a profit.

[DrakeGrimm]

80 million for server infrastructure is beyond absurd. Even if you're including the software and development costs, when I think of the kind of infrastructure I could build for $80 million... Wow, the game would never go down or lag.  We'd have multiple redundant datacenters around the globe synchronizing information in real time over dedicated fiber, and enough spare processing power and storage to rent out and make a profit.

...we could completely shift the rendering server side on a budget like that.

[Knightslayer]

Not to mention... didn't someone say they most likely rented their servers?
Or are we strictly talking about the gear the devs use? Which I imagine comes down to quite a few high end PCs and Macs, some servers, a bunch of licenses for high end 3D design programs, etc...
Either way, 80 million sounds very excessive.
Unless they got Cerebro in their office along with a Danger room to test new content. (Well, a Mission Architect studio then =P)

[Valjean]

$80M is overkill for a game like COH, especially since they consolidated most of the shards onto virtual blades. I think the real figure is significantly below that, in the single digits at the most.

[cptbarcode]

Add to that NCsoft's reluctance to have a serious competitor buy it and I can easily see NCsoft asking for 500 million just to say that they "tried" to sell the game while still having no intention of doing so.

Ok, that puts us on the same page; it's a price they could quote without ever expecting it to be met.

(Not being an investor or accountant, that's about as far as I can take the discussion, too.)

[Turjan]

I keep seeing people saying that NCSoft is reluctant to have a competitor buy the IP to CoH. I don't believe that for an instant. NCSoft's history of failed MMOs says one thing to me quite clearly - they don't care about competitors, their concern is more about saving face by burying their mistakes.

If an IP is buried, it's dead, forgotten, which means that no-one - not even a competitor - can ever bring it back to life to taunt the company again. Their pursuit of this serial murder of games is almost pathological. It makes me wonder what exactly Mr.Kim is afraid of. But that's a whole different can of psychological worms, as it were.

However, this is the first time I've seen them even talk about negotiations to sell an IP. But now they've stated those negotiations are over as far as they're concerned, I expect them to get back on their old tracks and now consider this a done deal, game (literally) over. That's what they've always done before, and it's always worked before. And that makes them feel comfortable.

But we don't want them to feel comfortable, we want them to stay on the back foot. We want them to accept the fact that we're not going away. We aren't like Tabula Rasa, Exteel, Auto Assault and Dungeon Runners (and Lineage US if you care to add that to the list too).

If they want us to shut up, that means we've got to them. There is a crack, and it's up to us to drive a wedge in there by continuing to do exactly what we've been doing - only more so.

[Victoria Victrix]

If they want us to shut up, that means we've got to them. There is a crack, and it's up to us to drive a wedge in there by continuing to do exactly what we've been doing - only more so.

This, QFT

[Codewalker]

Thread Necromancy

80 million for server infrastructure is beyond absurd. Even if you're including the software and development costs, when I think of the kind of infrastructure I could build for $80 million... Wow, the game would never go down or lag.  We'd have multiple redundant datacenters around the globe synchronizing information in real time over dedicated fiber, and enough spare processing power and storage to rent out and make a profit.

Just to follow up on that, I found a copy of the detailed breakdown of NCSoft's assets. As a publicly held company, all sorts of information is available to potential investors.

As of Dec. 31, 2011, NCSoft's complete server infrastructure was valued at 21,322 million Won. That's approximately $19.3 million USD.

That includes not only the servers that run all of their games, including those in Korea, but the servers that support all of their subsidiaries, development studios, satellite offices, and corporate headquarters. So divide that by how big you think COH is compared to NCSoft's entire lineup.

[Terwyn]

Perhaps the currency the 80 million was quoted at is in Won?

[NecrotechMaster]

Thread Necromancy

Just to follow up on that, I found a copy of the detailed breakdown of NCSoft's assets. As a publicly held company, all sorts of information is available to potential investors.

As of Dec. 31, 2011, NCSoft's complete server infrastructure was valued at 21,322 million Won. That's approximately $19.3 million USD.

That includes not only the servers that run all of their games, including those in Korea, but the servers that support all of their subsidiaries, development studios, satellite offices, and corporate headquarters. So divide that by how big you think COH is compared to NCSoft's entire lineup.

if ncsofts infrastructure as a whole was only valued at about $20 million, then i would think coh to be only about $2-3 million since quite obviously they put more resources into guild wars

[Codewalker]

It's in the last place anybody who values their sanity would look, in the Investor Relations Archive under Auditor reports.

They do contain the auditor's findings, but also include a more detailed breakdown of the balance sheet and income statement than they have in their main section.

http://global.ncsoft.com/global/board/downloadlist.aspx?BID=ir_audit

[Valjean]

if ncsofts infrastructure as a whole was only valued at about $20 million, then i would think coh to be only about $2-3 million since quite obviously they put more resources into guild wars

That's probably pretty close to reality. Which supports the argument that COH doesn't really need huge $$ for a buyout.

[Ammon]

As of Dec. 31, 2011, NCSoft's complete server infrastructure was valued at 21,322 million Won. That's approximately $19.3 million USD.

That includes not only the servers that run all of their games, including those in Korea, but the servers that support all of their subsidiaries, development studios, satellite offices, and corporate headquarters.

But it does not include outsourced or managed servers which many companies now use.  IIRC, all the CoH servers, for example, are actually third-party, except perhaps the dev server (Beta and Test), managed and provided by a company that specialize in server provision and management.  I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Zwill outright stated they were managed servers in another property, not NCsoft's own, in one of his last coffee talks.  It stuck in my mind because I found it interesting, as we tend to think (often wrongly) that most companies have their own massive server farms now.

[Rotten Luck]

But it does not include outsourced or managed servers which many companies now use.  IIRC, all the CoH servers, for example, are actually third-party, except perhaps the dev server (Beta and Test), managed and provided by a company that specialize in server provision and management.  I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Zwill outright stated they were managed servers in another property, not NCsoft's own, in one of his last coffee talks.  It stuck in my mind because I found it interesting, as we tend to think (often wrongly) that most companies have their own massive server farms now.

Makes me wonder if a contract ended and they chose to not renew.  So no more servers so might as well close the game instead of trying to find another Server manager.

[Valjean]

All of the COH servers were owned by NCsoft in their data center in Austin. And most of them were virtual shards, and no longer individual physical shards.

[Aggelakis]

All of the COH servers were owned by NCsoft in their data center in Austin. And most of them were virtual shards, and no longer individual physical shards.

This is correct in its entirety. The Austin datacenter houses most of their western efforts.

[Rotten Luck]

Then having them here and under ownership.  It does seem like the plan is to drop CoH so they can use those Servers for Brest and as... I mean Blade and Soul.

[Victoria Victrix]

Then having them here and under ownership.  It does seem like the plan is to drop CoH so they can use those Servers for Brest and as... I mean Blade and Soul.

You know, I have SUCH a politically incorrect name for Blade and Soul....given the two main focii of the game's artist (lemonboob and cameltoe)...

Of course "Tits and Bits" works too, and is a tiny, tiny bit less offensive.

[Ammon]

All of the COH servers were owned by NCsoft in their data center in Austin. And most of them were virtual shards, and no longer individual physical shards.

Thanks for that.  I guess Zwill must have been referring to them being in a different building.  I know he mentioned something about not having direct access to the machines physically, and that they login to them remotely, much as we do.

I'm often surprised that so few games have emulated Google's model - a cluster network that allows the servers to be always on, with no downtime.  They can literally update machines from the cluster on the fly, and at the halfway point, switch from the half running the old version to the half running the new, and then finish updating the other half.  The idea of single, large-scale server machines just seems so terribly outdated by comparison.